Bitchin' Blog Posts
State of the Plagiarism
by SB Sarah | by SB Sarah | January 13, 2009 | Tuesday at 12:00 pm | 266 CommentsIsn’t it enough that you people set out to destroy her career and almost caused her death?
In case you don’t know, which I know for a fact you have been told, Cassie Edwards suffered a massive stroke due to the stress you idiots put on her.
I hope you can live with yourselves knowing what you did almost cost this woman her life. You have deprived her grandchildren of their grandmother. You have caused a lot of innocent people much heartache by your actions.
Everyone is blaming you and your cronies for what happened. Not just her fans, fan club members, etc. I’m talking publishers, authors, editors, and more. I hope almost killing someone was worth the 15 minutes of fame.
If you have any reason to think this is a lie, contact Carol Stacy at Romantic Times and I’m sure she’ll verify the information for you.
A lot of Cassie’s fans plan on being at the RT convention in Orlando just so they can attend your blogging seminar. Instead of it being about the art of blogging maybe it should be about the art of how to destroy a person’s life.
A few weeks ago, when Sarah realized that January 2009 would mark a year since the plagiarism scandal that rocked the ferret world, as well as the romance world, she asked Jane to examine the issue and do a “State of Plagiarism” analysis, so to speak. After much back and forth dialogue, we’ve come to the following conclusions about the way the issue of plagiarism is treated by our community. This entry is posted on both Dear Author and on Smart Bitches as a summary of our conversation.
On the positive side: the issue is being discussed, in the romance community, and in the larger publishing world as well. Fans, authors, and even publishers are being educated as to what plagiarism is, what enforcement mechanisms there are, and why it’s important for the entirety of the literary community to not be complacent or unsupportive. Even if some, or even much, of the discussion is about how horribly mean we were to speak up and speak in the manner that we did, it was dialogue about an important topic that we hadn’t had before.
The Edwards scandal was important not because of who was involved, but because it led to the further education. There was a session at RWA and one at RT. There were mentions in the newspapers and on blogs. There was support for the victim of plagiarism in a way that there wasn’t ten years prior, making it easier for one who is plagiarised to come forward. Plagiarism became newsworthy, and the increased attention meant that victims of prior incidents had room to speak up and share their stories, the costs both financial and emotional they endured to protect their copyright.
Even the absence of discussion was noticeable.
But the negatives are related to the positives: the session at RWA was poorly attended, and there was a backlash to those who spoke out, not so much here at Smart Bitches or Dear Author, but against others who took a stand. With the revelation of plagiarism at the hand of Neale Donald Walsch, the same old themes are played out with a full orchestra.
Those who raise the issue and cry foul, whether it’s a blogger or the writer herself, take the blame. We’re told to hush up, keep quiet, and stop being mean.
It was one year ago this week that we broke the Cassie Edwards story. This entry isn’t in the least about her. Instead, it’s about where the writing community stands in regard to plagiarism within the genre. Based on our analysis, we haven’t made much progress. Lip service is paid to the idea that its bad, but when the excrement hits the air circulating device, there’s navel gazing and thumb twiddling and fretting and calls for forgiveness, bygones, and stop being mean already.
Little has changed in attitude and practice. Plagiarism remains an issue tried in the court of public opinion, and the more famous or published the thief is, the more likely they are to be reassured and forgiven by their eager fanbase. Plagiarism is not an issue that can always be validated in a court case; it’s a community issue. Do we, as a community, believe in the need for intellectual honesty and creativity?
Why is there not more of a reaction to sympathize with the person whose work, inspiration, and words were stolen from them? Why is there instead pressure for the victim to shut up about it and a general attitude that the whole mess should just disappear so people can get back to reading?
In our opinion, plagiarism isn’t taken seriously enough by some readers or by some writers. The defense of the plagiarist and the ease with which forgiveness is offered by readers is so stupid as to be mindboggling. What, because they cried and said they were sorry it should be over? Remorse is enough? To quote the wizened literary scholar Rhianna: “You’re only sorry you got caught.”
Until every reader and every writer refuses to tolerate plagiarism and the thieves that commit it, it will be a problem that continues to grow. But that intolerance needs to extend to every genre. When plagiarism hit romance, the response was, “Oh, but it’s only romance novels, and they’re all the same anyway.” With the spiritual writing community, the response is, “Oh, it’s just crazy religious people who think they talk to God, so whatever.” With fanfic, it’s “Oh, it’s just fanfic.”
Plagiarism should not be tolerated anywhere by anyone, and that includes romance, spiritual writing, literary fiction, academic publication, and fanfic. It shouldn’t be tolerated, it shouldn’t be excused, and it shouldn’t be something that is kept quiet. The lack of support for those who suffer from it is appalling: from insane court costs to accusations of being a whiner, the person who has been robbed is singled out as a troublemaker who ought to pipe down. From warnings of bad publicity to being called an outright liar, the victim is again a victim.
Yet again plagiarism shows up in the news this week, and yet again the same song is played. Everyone should be vocal in making a stand and making plagiarism unacceptable within our community. The song needs to change.
Filed: But...that's not really about romance novels, General Bitching, Ranty McRant
Tagged: writing, rwa, rt, publishers, plagiarism, ferret, copyright, authors, art
Nonny said on 01.13.09 at 12:35 PM • [link]
Uh. So, the woman did something wrong, unethical, and clearly illegal... and yet y’all are the “bad guys” for placing “undue stress” on “this poor woman”?
Sorry. Just because you’re elderly does not give you the right to break the law. It also doesn’t get you free ticket sympathy, either.
thirstygirl said on 01.13.09 at 12:53 PM • [link]
So not a classy thought but it did connect to today’s daily dinosaur comic for me - http://www.qwantz.com/
Emmy said on 01.13.09 at 12:57 PM • [link]
....because Edwards’ stealing had nothing to do with her problems? It’s everybody else’s fault for pointing out her illegal actions? Huh.
Also: is it too late to get a plane ticket and hotel room in Orlando? Sounds like it will be the place to be for the next RT convention.
led79…your captcha is *skerry*
Melissa said on 01.13.09 at 12:58 PM • [link]
I like how you got 15 minutes of fame by giving her a stroke. WAY TO GO!
But the reference to you on Cassie’s wikipedia entry will live on, and on. (and on)
And seriously, she broke a law, and her grandchildren probably still love her anyway, so leave off bringing kids into it for more sympathy points. Sheeesh. That’s like… like… faking a heart attack in a court room. And some of us know what that looked like, right? (I’d post a link but OMGWTFBBQ I don’t know how. Google it.)
Isn’t anything happening to Edwards? Or did it fade away into the distance like some romance version of Watergate? (Which, eew, no good images came from that reference.)
Leslee said on 01.13.09 at 01:34 PM • [link]
I agree with all the other comments! I do think part of the problem is how plagiarism is perceived in our society. People don’t see it as a crime and something bad because they don’t see writing as a commodity produced by a business (I dont’ mean that as disrespectful of the creative process). But if you look at it from a business stand point, the author is a company producing a product, the writing. Therefore when someone steals the product, it is wrong. Some people just see it as words and that they don’t count! I can’t stand it there are people out there that vilify the Smart Bitches and Dear Author for blowing the whistle when you should be applauded!
Cat Marsters said on 01.13.09 at 01:37 PM • [link]
My grandmother suffered a massive stroke a few years ago. And yet, she’d never written a romance novel or been accused of plagiarism! I was so shocked to discover the link between plagiarism and strokes, because now I have to go out hunting the person who caused my nannan’s.
But wait…my dog also suffered a stroke. And a heart attack. The vet said one caused the other but now I know the truth. She was the world’s first romance-plagiarising dog.
God said on 01.13.09 at 02:08 PM • [link]
I think its ridiculous how its all a hush-hush affair. I mean, in school, if you plagiarize your ass gets kicked out. And thats the way it should be. As a student, its beaten into you that this is the foregone conclusion to that situation. It should be the same way in real life, no? You plagiarize, it goes on your permanent record (i.e. your reputation as a professional writer) and you pay for it. And, please, if you have to use other people’s work anyway, then you sure as hell aren’t a professional anything.
I think you guys are absolutely right to talk about this issue. Its important and is
happening in every genre.
word verification: those38…those 38 pages don’t count as plagiarism, right?
snarkhunter said on 01.13.09 at 02:33 PM • [link]
I will say this about fanfic: the majority of people in the fic community—at least, the majority of the ones with a modicum of maturity—abhor plagiarism, and are not above public shaming. And we have long memories.
For example, Cassandra Clare, who is now a published children’s author (and presumably an honest one), is STILL remembered in the Harry Potter communities for the plagiarism scandal she was at the center of—and that was in…2000? 2001? Something like that. Which, in fandom terms, is practically the early Mesozoic period.
Ann Somerville said on 01.13.09 at 02:37 PM • [link]
And that’s had zero effect on her career, and is only of interest to fandom. Seriously. Bringing it up in pro circles will get you a huge yawn and a ‘so what?’
People will deal with stuff only when you rub their noses in it, and they’ll hate you, not the villain, because *you’re* the one making them feel uncomfortable. Which is strictly true, but not fair.
Michele said on 01.13.09 at 02:46 PM • [link]
I remember when the Nora Roberts/Janet Dailey scandal went down and there were cries then about poor Janet Dailey, which I thought were complete and utter bullshit. It still burns my butt that Dailey is still being published.
In no way shape or form do I feel sorry for a plagarist. They are thieves who can’t seem to admit they were wrong and blame no one but themselves. Scum.
Leah said on 01.13.09 at 02:49 PM • [link]
You know, stroke isn’t caused by stress, although it can be an exacerbating factor. The most common causes are age, atherosclerosis, high blood pressure, diabetes, high cholesterol, hereditary issues with the blood vessels, blood clots—that kind of thing. Smoking can up your chances, and it also doesn’t help if you are heavy. I don’t mean to be unkind, but chances are, Ms. Edward would have suffered her stroke whether or not the plagiarism controversy arose. And if anyone out there has one of the above health concerns, it might be wise to visit your dr to learn how you can avoid a stroke yourself, because they’re very common as we get *ahem* older, and it’s easy to miss the warning signs (numbness, visual disturbances—there are plenty of good lists of these on the web).
I’m sorry Ms. Edwards’ fans feel that they have to blame bloggers for her condition. It’s ok to have affection for an author and still realize that s/he did something wrong. They’d make better use of their energy if they focussed on stroke or heart disease prevention, not stuff like this. I hope they rethink their actions at RT, and that security will be on hand to control things if they get out of hand.
Silver James said on 01.13.09 at 02:58 PM • [link]
Wow. Has it been a year? I first discovered SBTB because of the Edward’s brouhaha. My how time flies and all that. I’d planned on going to RT but since my book won’t have been released, I decided the time and expense was better saved for later. I wish now I could be there.
Plagiarism is stealing. How hard is that to understand? It is wrong ethically and legally. I’m sorry the woman had a stroke. According to the Mayo Clinic. risk factors for stroke don’t include being taken to task for plagiarism.
Someone mentioned above that if a student plagiarized, they’d be suspended or expelled. The same is true in academic writing. Ph.D candidates face a review board that picks apart their dissertation, including checking all references and looking for plagiarism. Considering how anal publishing companies are about books/ebooks being pirated, you’d think they would take a tougher stand. *shrugs* I’m betting a new author would have been dropped cold and left to the “wolves” but a venerable soul like Edwards? “But…but…SHE makes money for us.”
G said on 01.13.09 at 03:00 PM • [link]
Well, I have never purchased Janet Dailey’s books since the scandal and I buy Nora Roberts’ all the time, so the scandal produced a good result for me. Primarily because Roberts’ work is so good and I was reading Daily for the quality (which was not her own) that I thought I saw (and I was a young pup, then).
I do care about plagiarism. I hope others do as well.
snarkhunter said on 01.13.09 at 03:05 PM • [link]
Yes, very true. My point is, within the fic community at least, she’s done. Not that she cares, b/c it has had zero effect on her pro career (I mean, the handful of us who won’t buy her books hardly count as an effect).
I just meant to say that the “amateur” communities are actually much more invested in plagiarism than the pro communities. And that’s ... sad.
snarkhunter said on 01.13.09 at 03:09 PM • [link]
Ha. Not at my university. I mean, I certainly didn’t plagiarize my dissertation, but I know for certain that my committee members didn’t have time to check the references—in fact, I bet most of them didn’t even look at my 20-page bibliography. And as for the review…the only review the university does is for formatting issues. That’s it.
And as for students being suspended or expelled? Again, I say HA. The best we can do for a first offense, no matter how egregious, is fail them on the assignment and recommend them to the judicial board. We can’t even fail them for the class. I can’t remember the last time I heard of a student being expelled for plagiarism at the university level.
The fact is almost no one takes plagiarism seriously.
Ann Somerville said on 01.13.09 at 03:12 PM • [link]
And yet how many in fandom had exactly the same reaction as Edwards’ fans did to her plagiarism? I remember reading post after post defending Clare and slamming those trying to expose her and other fandom frauds. The problem of creative theft remains a huge one for fandom, when the only prize is acclaim and attention.
Fandom does talk about serious issues, including plagiarism, at much greater length and breadth than I’ve seen in romance blogs - partly the passion of youth, partly the participation of so many students and academics. But that just does not translate to the wider world at all.
isidri said on 01.13.09 at 03:15 PM • [link]
My Lord. What a steaming pile of crap. First of all, show me the medical journal that says strokes are caused by stress. Secondly—yeah, suffering the fallout from your own incredibly poor choices is stressful, bow howdy. I’m sure it’s even more unpleasant when it’s splashed all over the internet. Perhaps the way to avoid that is to not behave unethically, rather than to count ona culture of silence to protect you, and to sic your half-wit fans on anyone who doesn’t think you’re a victimized saint.
Oh, and having grandhcildren? Doesn’t make you a good person. It makes you a person who’s offspring have themselves reproduced.
Ezri said on 01.13.09 at 03:21 PM • [link]
I do think that part of the reason that plagiarism is such a tough topic is that in some instances it can be a rather grey area. If the author changes some of the pieces of a stolen set of writing he or she could claim that it was not identical to the original if the situation were ever noticed. Morally it seems pretty clear cut because stealing isn’t right, and you always need to do your own work. But plagiarism is very hard to define in other instances. In university, I remember avoiding critical literature as much as possible because I was worried about coming to similar conclusions and inadvertently writing about someone else’s idea. It is possible to independently come up with similar ideas - Coleridge was approached one day after a lecture by a fellow who told him that had he not known that he had the first editions of Schiller (I’d have to check on the specific German philosopher to be positive- this is off the top of my head) to arrive in England hot off the presses, he would’ve been convinced that Coleridge had copied his ideas. And later on Coleridge did get in trouble for plagiarism in any case. But sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference unless you can clearly see the intent. I’m not defending plagiarism by any means, but I think it’s one of those things that people find very subjective, like trying to define pornography- on the extreme end of the spectrum it’s easy to recognize, but in less extreme cases, it’s harder to pinpoint.
Chris said on 01.13.09 at 03:26 PM • [link]
It’s very sad that she became ill but I don’t think that should excuse anyone from doing wrong. And one thing has nothing to do with the other.
It’s unfortunate that after all the hullabaloo that it was just business as usual. That’s very disheartening. Whatever the genre is, it will never be taken seriously if we say “oh well, that’s just ****”. It’s still wrong.
robinb said on 01.13.09 at 03:27 PM • [link]
I bet if people would have been plagiarizing Ms. Edwards, instead of the other way around, those “fans” would have been screaming bloody murder. And now, a year later, it’s still al your fault that she had a stroke? Come on. Whose fault was it when she wrote book and book filled with other people’s words? I assume that this is a basic tenet of growing up in the world: you don’t take something that doesn’t belong to you. Simple. Every day people read something, get an idea, write a novel about something they had to research. Yet, they don’t plagiarize. If Diana Gabaldon is writing her books from personal experience (I"m reading Outlander. Yes, Again!) then more power to her, but I’m betting she isn’t. Yet, she isn’t plagiarizing.
I’m sorry that their reaction to a horrific event (Ms. Edwards’ stroke) is to come and shout you down at RT. I wasn’t going to go this year, but this makes me sorely tempted. I’m sure ya’ll can handle it, though.
snarkhunter said on 01.13.09 at 03:29 PM • [link]
Actually, Coleridge was a plagiarizer. Flat-out, no excuses. He plagiarized from *everyone*, I swear.
Sparky said on 01.13.09 at 03:32 PM • [link]
WHAAAT?
No, just no. You don’t get to do something highly immoral and unethical and then claim that the stress of being caught has ruined your health
If your health is vulnerable to high levels of stress then maybe you should refrain from high risk behaviour - like ripping off other people’s work and violating copyright.
And amen, people have to do something about this. Plagiarism is arrogant and fraudulent. The readers and the authors being ripped off both deserve better than that. And if someone is exposed as a plagiarist then it most certainly is NOT mean to spread the word far and wide and make sure it isn’t just brushed under the carpet and ignored
If it weren’t for people like Dear Author and the Smart Bitches willingness to stand up and speak out against plagiarism and plagiarists who would? The publishers? (not likely!) The rabid fanpoodles yapping round the plagiarist’s feet?
Plagiarism should not be tolerated, ever. But it will be tolerated and forgiven constantly - and it is tolerated and forgiven constantly - and we should, as a community, thank people like the Smart Bitches for taking the stand against this unnacceptable behaviour - even when the fanpoodles come yapping in at their ankles
Ruth said on 01.13.09 at 03:53 PM • [link]
Candy and Sarah, it was REALLY uncool of you to travel back in time and force Cassie Edwards to steal other authors’ work. You really ARE bitches.
With no vested interest in the works of Cassie Edwards, one of the things I got out of last year’s debacle was a list of new authors to read and one in particular to avoid like the plague, based on their reactions to this situation developing here.
Lynne Connolly said on 01.13.09 at 04:02 PM • [link]
Plagiarism is wrong, but a few things bothered me about this case.
How come all the blame goes Edwards’ way? The author is set up to take the blame in the contract, and that’s what happened, but -
the woman had been writing her books this way for years. If her editors didn’t notice, then they’re not doing a very good job of editing. They should have at least noticed the changes of style in the books, maybe even marked them as infodumps and asked her to revise.
If they did know she was copying, they should have told her and advised her that it was illegal. If they had noticed, they should have informed the publisher, since plagiarism is illegal. Either way, they should have taken some of the blame, and they didn’t, they walked away.
I think we should leave the woman alone. She isn’t writing any more, she’s lost all her contracts, and she needs some quiet. I don’t think that letter helps her any, and I don’t think anyone who knows her has ever blamed anyone for her stroke.
Yes, I knew about the stroke shortly afterwards, but, like many other authors, I decided not to mention it anywhere publicly because the stroke effectively signalled the end of her writing career, and she needed some basic human compassion. And some peace and quiet.
Maybe a bit of the quality of mercy.
And there was a lot of schadenfreude involved here. People gloating over her downfall, and frankly, that sickened me. I’m not blaming the Bitches, or the Janes, who brought the matter forward, but some of the commenters were so vicious I didn’t want anything to do with that kind of nastiness.
It’s in the nature of a case study, just as the Dailey/Roberts case is, but it’s over, done. I still think it’s wrong, but since I don’t know the details, who condoned it, who knew about it, what Edwards herself thought, it’s probably better not to hound her to the grave now.
Maybe it might be more helpful to try to trace how it happened, how it went on so long without being noticed by industry professionals, and how to stop it happening again.
Lorelie said on 01.13.09 at 04:10 PM • [link]
Chiming in to say “boo plagiarism,” which is really the most we can do. Speak up.
I don’t buy plagiarists, and I don’t buy authors known to have taken a permissive stance when their buddies/acquaintances are caught, and even more than that I spread the news to reading aquaintances. I attended the RWA plagiarism panel and I intend to continue attending such events whenever I’m able to make it to conferences.
Speak up. Put the truth out there. Explain (repeatedly if necessary) why it’s wrong. The ripple effect will eventually take effect.
The fact that you’re still receiving hate mail is both unsurprising and disturbing. I hate to be a worry wart, but - stay safe at RT, mmkay? Use the buddy system, etc.
Ann Somerville said on 01.13.09 at 04:10 PM • [link]
No, it’s not. Plagiarism is *immoral.* Theft of copyright material might be illegal in some jurisdictions, but plagiarism is not.
Being a crappy editor is not the same as being a thief. It’s really not.
No, it’s not over. For one, so far as she’s concerned, her books are still being issued by a publisher, and the people whose intellectual property she stole, are still not being compensated.
For another, the wider issue of plagiarism is being treated with the same inappropriate sympathy as you’re showing here. No one wants to hound anyone into an early grave. No one showed the slightest desire to, or did so. But full consequences of community disgust? Hell yes.
The people who are still getting it in the neck are those who exposed it, while Edwards is being cooed over as the poor old woman. Other plagiarists are being supported and protected by their fans, their victims suffering villification and their reputations shredded. If you can’t see how very wrong that is, then it demonstrates just how profound the problem is and how far the industry has to go before it can say the problem is dealt with.
JoanneL said on 01.13.09 at 04:21 PM • [link]
She may need some quiet but she’s not getting it from her publisher or maybe someone ‘borrowed’ her name and wrote the following and she/they are donating profits to the furry creatures?
Savage Flames Feb-2008
Savage Abandon Sep-2008
Her Forbidden Pirate Jan-2009
Savage Sun Apr-2009
Fionn Jameson said on 01.13.09 at 04:27 PM • [link]
Lynne, I didn’t want to bring this up, but something you mentioned about the editors not noticing, hence they are, too, at fault got my whatever-the-hell-it-is up.
“If her editors didn’t notice, then they’re not doing a very good job of editing. They should have at least noticed the changes of style in the books, maybe even marked them as infodumps and asked her to revise.
If they did know she was copying, they should have told her and advised her that it was illegal. If they had noticed, they should have informed the publisher, since plagiarism is illegal. Either way, they should have taken some of the blame, and they didn’t, they walked away. “
Really? Seriously? I was not aware that editors had to read other writers to make sure their writers are not plagiarizing those other writers. Gosh. Imagine all those extra books editors have to read.
Kind of makes you feel sorry for them, eh?
Nonny said on 01.13.09 at 04:28 PM • [link]
Lynne, she has hardly lost all her contracts. I’d highly suggest you check your facts there.
I don’t think that her editors are necessarily to blame, because while the passages she stole were most certainly infodumps and should have been edited—her career began at a time where such was normal in most fiction. By the point that it became considered “bad writing”, she was already making her publishers good money. They don’t fuck with that.
It’s not over. It’s still going on. And for all the Internet activism about the situation, there’s still plenty of people that think we’re making something out of nothing and that we should just “leave the poor old woman alone.” Sorry, no, not when she still has yet to admit she’s done anything wrong.
Nonny said on 01.13.09 at 04:31 PM • [link]
Exactly, Fionn. It’s ludicrous to expect an editor to have read every bit of fiction and non-fiction out there and thus automatically be a plagiarism-catching machine. It’s not possible.
Combine that with the fact that the style she was plagiarizing was normal for the time period in which she first started her career—yeah. I’m not surprised it took this long for her to get caught.
Don’t blame the editor. Blame the person who did it in the first place and should have known it was wrong. And if she truly didn’t, she should have tried to make some sort of apology and reparation.
Lynne Connolly said on 01.13.09 at 04:34 PM • [link]
The people who are still getting it in the neck are those who exposed it, while Edwards is being cooed over as the poor old woman. Other plagiarists are being supported and protected by their fans, their victims suffering villification and their reputations shredded. If you can’t see how very wrong that is, then it demonstrates just how profound the problem is and how far the industry has to go before it can say the problem is dealt with.
As I said at the start and the finish of my post, I think plagiarism is wrong and should be prosecuted, so yes, I see how wrong it is. In the UK, it’s certainly illegal, and someone can be sued for breach of copyright. I’m not sure how that works in the US.
And, FWIW, I don’t buy books by known plagiarists either. Edwards used to be one of my comfort reads, but I haven’t bought any of her books since the scandal broke. As a reader, it’s the best way I can show my displeasure, and boycotting campaigns do work.
I just can’t see the point of lynching Edwards. She’s not going to be writing any more books, she’s not part of the writing community any more. Maybe her publishers should stop reissuing the books, too.
What I would like to see is a study of where it went wrong, and how it was allowed to continue for so long. Who did it, why it went unnoticed, if it did, that kind of thing. That might lead to a positive result, maybe guidelines being set up, definite rules put in place. I don’t see how persecuting the Bitches and Janes, or on the other hand, persecuting Edwards, will help. If something positive can come of this, then fine, and I’ll certainly support that in any way possible, because of course plagiarism is wrong.
Leah said on 01.13.09 at 04:36 PM • [link]
When I was doing grad work in history at Ball State Univ. in IN, during the early 90’s, another grad assistant was expelled from the program for what his advisors called “plagiarizing himself.” He used the same paper—or essentially the same paper in 2 different classes. I can only imagine what they would have done had he ripped off Frederick Jackson Turner . Granted, they might have been more lenient with a freshman. I know that when I did research, I pretty much wrote my notes as verbatim quotes, complete with citations, out of the fear I would accidentally plagizarize someone. For us, that was defined as “three significant words in a row.”
Lynne Connolly said on 01.13.09 at 04:43 PM • [link]
I just remembered something.
In the UK, several years ago, The Verve had a huge hit with a track called Bittersweet Symphony. I don’t know how it did in the US, but in the UK and Europe it became a massive hit. Lots of dosh.
But The Verve and its songwriter, Richard Ashcroft, sampled (plagiarised) a Rolling Stones track, without permission. The video also played a “homage” to Massive Attack’s “Unfinished Sympathy.”
The Stones took The Verve to court, and won. All the profits from the track, all the royalties, went and continue to go, to the Stones. (Actually, because of a bad contract, the money goes to Allen Klein, which tells you the lawyers always win in the end).
Maybe a principle like this should work in the book business? If, instead of a sum of compensation, the royalties and earnings, present and past, went to the person plagiarised, that would help to put people off and make sure the offending party was properly compensated.
Emmy said on 01.13.09 at 04:46 PM • [link]
I still see Edwards’ books for sale at the supermarket. Why are her books not being pulled from the shelves? Also, it’s highly doubtful she’s giving her royalties back for her thievery. I’m surprised there haven’t been more lawsuits by the people whose work got stolen.
What happened to accountability? Why is it everbody else’s fault but Edwards’ that she stole bits of other people’s work? Nobody made her do it. As for why she was able to write some 100 books before anyone figured it out…no idea.
Lynne Connolly said on 01.13.09 at 04:50 PM • [link]
Academic plagiarising - this can be done in retrospect, too, ie if a student’s dissertation or thesis have been plagiarised, they can lose a degree they’ve previously been awarded (again, in the UK, don’t know how it works in the US).
I’m a member of an email list with that intent. Professors and lecturers will put up chunks of essays they have doubts about, and ask if anyone has seen it before. That’s why it’s an extremely private list. Sometimes the style alerts the lecturer, sometimes just a vague remembrance that they’ve seen it before. It does mean that when a professional plagiariser is discovered (people sell dissertations, sometimes more than once) they can be put out of action faster.
Barb Ferrer said on 01.13.09 at 04:54 PM • [link]
Plagiarism is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, dammit. Why is this such a difficult concept for people to grasp? Because it’ll take away a favorite writer? Tough patootie. You should find out who they plagiarized from—you might enjoy the original work even more.
Honest writers bust ass to create a story. Just because it’s an assemblage of words that we employ for everyday use doesn’t mean that writing and crafting a good story is easy. It’s not.
And I so sick and tired of the plagiarists taking the “I didn’t realize I did it,” defense. I don’t care. On some level, they did. Otherwise they wouldn’t go to such effort to come up with utter bullshit excuses.
It’s interesting though—the one case in recent history I can think of where the plagiarist actually did not get the benefit of public sympathy is Kaavya Viswanathan (How Opal Mehta Got Kissed, Got Wild and Got a Life). She was a Harvard-bound seventeen year-old who’d received a six-figure deal and was receiving an enormous amount of publisher support (tour, television, etc.) and when it came to light that it appeared she’d plagiarized, rather than jump on the whistle-blowers, the court of public opinion absolutely nailed Viswanathan.
So where’s the difference between Edwards and this girl? Is it because it’s romance versus YA and in romance we’re supposed to be “nice girls?” Is it because it was an older, grandmotherly type from a different era versus a young, vibrant entitled, Harvard-bound girl who really, should’ve known better?
Where do we draw the line in the sand with respect to excuses? In this case, there is no line. Viswanathan’s excuses rang remarkably similar to Edwards’ (And Neale Donald Walsch’s for that matter)— didn’t realize she was doing it, it must have stuck with her, so sorry, she really didn’t mean to, blah, blah, blah.
No line. Doesn’t matter if it’s a grandmother or a Harvard freshman or a guy who says he talks to God. You can’t borrow other people’s material and claim it as your own. Period. It’s wrong and it infuriates me that to this day there are people who claim that it was Edwards who was wronged because what she did was exposed.
Wow. Can you tell this is a hot button for me?
Laura said on 01.13.09 at 04:55 PM • [link]
Some universities do take it seriously. When I worked at my alma mater as an academic, we had a scandal where a former student was writing assignments for cash. It was discovered as plagiarism since he had no difficulty with selling the same assignment to more than one customer. Several people were charged with fraud and excluded from the university. We also discovered the university had the power to revoke granted degrees. (Nice one!) Since then the university has spent lots of time and effort to educate students about what plagiarism is and why it’s wrong. Every new student in my school now has to take a short but compulsory non-credit course on plagiarism and proper referencing. The university has also moved to set assignments that are harder to plagiarize and install and use plagiarism detection systems. I am proud that my alma mater invested in this.
katiebabs said on 01.13.09 at 04:59 PM • [link]
How dare you bring to light the unethical practices that some authors will go through to get published. *GASP*
I am still trying to figure out what you have done wrong and why you are to blame about the whole Edwards thing, because you have facts to back up everything. I hope there are more panels about plagiarism. It is a topic that still needs to be discussed.
Darlene Marshall said on 01.13.09 at 05:12 PM • [link]
The ferrets still love you. As do those of us who still have a few brain cells rubbing together.
snarkhunter said on 01.13.09 at 05:14 PM • [link]
Yeah, that happens here, too. It happened here at my school right before I started my graduate work, and the university *pretends* to be really hard on plagiarism as a result. I think they are (justly) harder on graduate students—I was thinking of undergrads, who pretty much get away with murder when it comes to plagiarism.
What I’ve found, though, is that we give a lot of lip service to anti-plagiarism policies, but they don’t really have teeth. I’ve failed plagiarists (including one self-plagiarist) on their assignments, but I doubt I’d be able to fail them for the class, unless they did it twice. And I’ve never caught one twice.
ShivC said on 01.13.09 at 05:15 PM • [link]
I’m a current uni student who went through a fiasco last year where I was wrongfully accused of plagiarism on a lab report. The consequences of being found guilty would have ranged from expulsion from course to expulsion from university (and the policy of my province is that if you’ve been expelled from a uni, you cannot apply to any other uni in the province). Although I was acquitted (there was a scary hearing), my lab partner was found guilty and expelled from the school.
The “plagiarism is evil and you are despicable for doing it” mantra has been drilled into me throughout my school career (I remember teachers handing out F’s on assignments in grade 7 because they were plagiarized). I don’t know how anyone can disregard something that they’ve been taught for so long and then go on to plagiarize in the professional community.
JulieT said on 01.13.09 at 05:27 PM • [link]
So if my three year old child hits the cat, and I punish her for hitting the cat, then the cat-hitting incident is MY FAULT. That’s esseintially what the nitwit at the start of your article is implying. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense.
As a writer, I take a pretty hard-line stance on plagiarism. Which is to say, kick their ass out. Out of school, out of the publishing industry, out of wherever. They’re liars and thieves. Give ‘em the boot.
That said, in many types of writing, there are very informal ways to give credit where it is due. Many people, from articles to novels, will put a “books I used to write this” or “sources I found helpful” section in somewhere, usually at the end, and for the vast majority of publications I think that is entirely acceptable. But if you’re using a direct quote, you better be putting quotes around it and a footnote at the end.
As usual, the response from the publishing industry is disgusting yet predictable. They don’t give a hoot about ethics, they care about money. They will continue to publish Cassie Edwards novels (even though any of them with proven plagiarism should be pulled), and make the right noises, all the while secretely delighted by the scandal because it will sell more books.
Sympathies to you guys for bearing the brunt of the negative crap; dealing with three-year-olds is a rough gig.
Zodiac Lung said on 01.13.09 at 05:27 PM • [link]
Just an observation, as I’ve been an interested lurker, but having no emotional investment: I was Googling Cassie Edwards and clicked on a site confirming the above mentioned publication of two of her books this year: “Savage Sun” and “Her Forbidden Pirate”. I don’t know when she WROTE these (Pre-Stroke or Post-Stroke) but it seems she had little difficulty signing on with Leisure Books, aka Dorchester Publishing (which Wikipedia claims has the Top Spot in publishing the Horror Genre…). So the Poor Old Lady shall be continuing her income from her Faithful Fanbase, with little break in her stride. I assume that Dorchester is aware of the scandal of a year ago. I’m wondering if they will edit her work with that in mind, wanting to avoid further allegations of plagiarism, or if it’ll just be Business as Usual. I also wonder, did they agree to buy up and re-print all the Works In Question, or just the two or three latest Savages…
Jay Montville said on 01.13.09 at 05:35 PM • [link]
One of the reason why I read SB (besides the fact that y’all are hella hilarious) is because of your roles and attitudes towards plagiarism. As a former academic, a current lawyer, and a future published writer (hopefully), I get incredibly angry when I see a plagiarist get public sympathy while the person who actually did the work gets nothing and the people who bring it to our attention get accused of meaness or causing harm to the plagiarist.
I was plagiarized once, a long time ago, and let me tell you, if I could have held a cage match and beat that girl down, I would have. Steal my ideas if you want to—if you think you can write a better book than me with those ideas, you’re welcome to try. But steal my words at your peril.
HA! My verification word—period54. Are you asking me if I’m PMSing, verification word? :)
Emmy said on 01.13.09 at 05:40 PM • [link]
To the left of the topic…all those people who were complaining about Barb Sheridan’s Beautiful C*cksucker…where’s the outrage over calling Indians “Savages”? It’s stereotypical and perpetuates a negative image of a people who are most decidedly NOT acting savagely. I grew up near a reservation and have yet to see any of the natives prancing about in a loincloth..much to my dismay.
Charlene said on 01.13.09 at 06:02 PM • [link]
You know, I’m almost ashamed to share the planet with the person who wrote that letter.
Supporting plagiarists is the moral equivalent of supporting car thieves.
raj said on 01.13.09 at 06:33 PM • [link]
Barb, there’s possibly another twist in the Viswanathan affair – I suspect she had very little to do with writing the book in question. As I recall, the person who got her in contact with the publisher said that the book Viswanathan showed her initially was a dark, “serious” story and the idea for Opal Metha came from trading emails with Viswanathan and deciding that her somewhat bubbly tone was better suited for a novel.
And then it turned out that they basically based Opal on the author herself – Indian-American whose parents hire an admissions coach to get her into an Ivy League school. The person who started the ball rolling on the book was, in fact, Viswanathan’s admissions coach.
I’ve suspected since shortly after the story broke that Viswanathan probably didn’t have much to do with the writing of the book that was published. I imagine it was probably written by a committee, as the co-holder of the copyright for Opal Metha was held by a book-packaging company. Viswanathan probably found herself in a sticky situation – admit, as a Harvard student, that she plagiarized, or admit that she had little to do with writing a book for which she was paid several hundred thousand dollars.
The difference between the reaction to Viswanathan and other outed plagiarists is two-fold, I think. The initial and most thorough reporting done on the issue was done by a Harvard school paper. They were publishing new reports of plagiarized passages often. The other thing that played against Viswanathan is that they seemed to be marketing Viswanathan herself as much as her book. There’s not much in the YA category written about, for, or by Indian-American readers, and that’s got to be a market with huge potential. Cassie Edwards, for all her readers, was not getting a book-signing tour or a movie deal like Viswanathan was.
Shiloh Walker said on 01.13.09 at 06:40 PM • [link]
Well said.
I sympathize Ms. Edwards’ health, and regardless of the plagiarism, I wouldn’t wish any ill on her-there’s no need. Doing wrong will always catch up with a person.
However, regardless of whether or not stress from work induced the stroke (and sorry, that can’t be proven-too many things play into a stroke, and stress is only part of it), nobody made her plagiarize.
She made the choice and if she suffered consequences after, then she has to deal with them.
Shiloh Walker said on 01.13.09 at 06:45 PM • [link]
And it just now occurs to me, I didn’t address the main issue…yes, publishers/editors/writers/readers all of us need to step up and say plagiarism is wrong, make it clear it isn’t acceptable.
We all work hard. It doesn’t matter if we’re writing recipe books, material for greeting cards, blogs about whether or not the state of the world will ever improve, fiction, nonfiction, published, unpublished, nobody has the right to take somebody else’s hard work and pass it off as their own. Nobody.
Shanna said on 01.13.09 at 06:57 PM • [link]
As a reader I definitely care about plagarism. I first heard of Janet Dailey’s plagarism here and as a result I won’t be buying any of her books. Same goes for Cassie Edwards. Thanks for spreading the word. It’s never okay to plagarize and I for one don’t want you to shut up about it.
JaneyD said on 01.13.09 at 07:00 PM • [link]
It is not an unknown thing for a woman in her 70s to have a stroke.
I’m sure Ms. Edwards was under a great deal of stress, and she and her family have my sympathy.
But she repeatedly made one foolish choice after another over the years by plagiarizing countless times and was finally caught.
Some people can say “It’s a fair cop,” admit they blew it, and move on.
Others continue to live with wet feet while looking at pyramids.
Plagiarism is theft; no one likes a thief. Even her publisher figured that out.
She helped changed the industry though:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/
showthread.php?p=2600411#post2600411
I had that rider on MY last book contract. My agent tells me it is becoming standard practice. Publishers are covering their a$$es in regard to careless or terminally stupid word thieves and liars.
So in a very twisted way we can thank CE for making some progress in protecting the property of others. Steal from another writer, pay a whacking huge fine in addition to public humiliation and a flushed career.
Her publisher only canceled her contracts; she got off lightly. She is still getting royalties from books still in print.
I’m sorry she’s sick, but don’t blame the SBs. If not them, then someone else would have played Woodward and Bernstein to the scandal.
Cheap shot time. Sorry, I can’t resist:
So, has Kaavya Viswanathen had HER stroke yet?
JoanneL said on 01.13.09 at 07:00 PM • [link]
I think the difference between Viswanathan and the Edwards case is that Edwards has a long time fan base and consequently those people defend her actions no matter what the facts are.
She’s a nice old woman so leave her alone.
I’m a nice old woman but if I rob someone’s house the police are not going to leave me alone.
Edwards never admitted her guilt and that’s a big a problem. Talk about denial. All the legal advice in the world couldn’t stop a moral person from stepping up to the plate and admitting they had stolen and were sorry. Leaving the victim and the whistleblowers out to dry and to take the heat is just as wrong.
AND STILL people are asking others to stop talking about it. Act as though it was an unfortunate non-event and just let it go. Be nice, take the higher road, blah, blah, blah.
People want to be ‘nice’ until it’s their work that is stolen.
Silver James said on 01.13.09 at 07:02 PM • [link]
Thank you, Emmy. As a Chickasaw/Cherokee married to a Muskogee Creek (three of the five CIVILIZED tribes - but don’t get me started on that either, because I don’t consider any of the other tribes to be UNcivilized), I find Edward’s work offensive. What surprises me, though, is the fact that no tribal activists have called her or her publishers to task. With all the chest-thumping about sports mascots, you’d think this would be a hot button for them.
Sorry. Off topic. But my stand on plagiarism has been stated before and often. No! Just HELL no!
Morgana said on 01.13.09 at 07:19 PM • [link]
I have never been a Cassie Edwards fan. Not since a leading lady in one of her historicals said that her dad “would have a cow” if he found out that she was carrying on with an Indian. That said, I feel so sorry for her. She made a mistake but being named and shamed to this extent is a disgrace. I don’t enjoy bullying (even cyber bullying) and that is what this has turned into.
I respect that she is a published author, something most people can only aspire to. So I say lets give the old girl a break.
SisterZip said on 01.13.09 at 07:24 PM • [link]
I usually lurk and laugh…as Jay Montville above said, you guys are hilarious. But I have learned something today….
Smart Bitches cause strokes.
Stealing is good.
And most people are stupid.
Wow! Quite a lot for one day, don’t you think?
My daughter is a grad assistant at Kansas State Univ. She teaches Beginning Public Speaking while she is getting her masters degree. One day during her first month of teaching she was sitting in her office reading the written copy of her students’ speeches after listening to the tapes. Her office mate was listening to her class’ tapes at the same time. As my daughter is reading her hard copy, it is almost as if she were following along with her office mates tape. It was almost word for word the same speech from two different students. Coincidence? The girls took it to their course director. At this point it was out of their hands but their course director kept them informed as to what happened. It seems these two students were roommates and decided to write a speech about an event they attended together. The decided to write one speech…because who would know? After the investigation & conferences ended, it was decided that because both kids were freshmen they would not be expelled. They received a zero for that assignment (which was a big hit on their grade for the entire course, they practically had to get A’s the rest of the semester), sit through an ethics seminar on plagerism & stealing (specifically designed for this sort of thing because as we know freshmen and athletes are stupid; my daughter said they had 50 people in each of 4 seminars-90% freshmen & athletes), and the incident was put in their files in case of a repeat occurance. I think the decision was fair. Everyone deserves a second chance. One of the students was very upset & realized that it was wrong, yadayadayada. The other threatened to hire a lawyer & sue because he did nothing wrong. Which student actually wrote the speech? The one who realized it was wrong.
Barb Ferrer said on 01.13.09 at 07:36 PM • [link]
Raj, of course you’re right in pointing out the differences here. Alloy (same company behind Gossip Girl and its ilk as well as Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants) has a history, as a book packager of having in house writers or writers for hire; they buy a story concept and farm it out. So from that standpoint, I think this is one of those cases where we’ll never know for sure, exactly what happened or who exactly was responsible, however, you have to admit, Kaavya was not given any leeway (and rightly so). Whether it was her or some behind-the scenes ghostwriter, it was her name on the book and she was made to step up and admit responsibility.
Yet the Harvard Crimson gets kudos for breaking the story and the Smart Bitches get condemnation for doing the same. Y’all should become affiliated with an Ivy League University, yo.
Becky said on 01.13.09 at 07:40 PM • [link]
I’m not in publishing. I don’t get to see the new riders and what authors and publishers are doing behind the scenes to stop this from happening again. All the general public sees is that Edwards’ books are still available at the grocery store, on Amazon, and at bookstores like Borders. Any other defective product gets pulled off store shelves. So there must not be anything too terribly wrong with plagiarism, right?
Whether or not they knew about the plagiarism before the story broke, the publishers had a responsibility to pull these books once the situation became clear. It makes me sick that a year later the books are still for sale, and the “author” and publisher are still profiting from the theft. No wonder so many people think it’s no big deal.
Miri said on 01.13.09 at 07:43 PM • [link]
I think the subject should not be left alone. Each of these Authors who have plagerized , Daily, Edwards, Viswanathan, Walsh need to held up as an example of what NOT to do. Everytime plagerisim is tolerated or swept under the carpet or shouted down with screeches of “you’re just being mean!” I belittles us as readers. It makes us look stupid. So no, I don’t think Cassie Edwards should be left in peace. Nor Janet Daily, nor any one else who is outed as a thief. The story of what they did should be told again and again. And maybe plagerisim will happen less and less.
JewelTones said on 01.13.09 at 08:08 PM • [link]
People who do wrong will always find an excuse for why they’re not responsible and why someone else made them do it, and the people who like that person will always find a reason to back them up. That whole gang mentality of of pummeling someone trying to stand up and be the voice of “right” into silence has always been a stumper for me, but its a trend in just about anything. If someone is rich enough, popular enough, “celebrity” enough, they’re allowed to get away with just about anything and anyone who dares to challenge that gets shamed and torn apart. Romance, literary, fanfic or whatnot, if you take something that doesn’t belong to you… it’s stealing. You know it. I know it. And our mother’s all taught us that when we were 3 and took our first pack of gum from the grocery store. The rules don’t change just because it’s words and text vs. HubbaBubba.
sazzat said on 01.13.09 at 08:11 PM • [link]
This is not “bullying” at all. Bullying would be attacking her for personal or other unrelated reasons. Bullying would be continuing to hound her when she had admitted to her breach in ethics and made restitution. Cassie Edwards has never recognized her wrongdoing and continues to profit from it, while the authors from whom she stole are getting nothing for her use of their work. For her books to stay in print, and for her to have more books upcoming, is a constant reminder that she has continued to profit from unethical behavior.
I’m not a big fan of cries of “mean girls,” anyway. It’s a way to stereotype women as being juvenile and petty, and it belittles the seriousness of a situation like this one.
HelenKay Dimon said on 01.13.09 at 08:33 PM • [link]
Morgana - I don’t understand how this is a mean girls thing. Plagiarism is very different from a simple mistake. It’s a knowing act. The person who does it takes information they know is not their own and then pass it off as if it is. I can’t think of a worse thing for an author to do than to steal someone else’s words verbatim, which is what Edwards did. Yes, it’s terrible that she had a stroke. No one wants her to be ill. But it’s also terrible that she stole someone else’s work. That is something for which she should be ashamed and for which she should be held to account. It’s an issue about which the writing community should be shocked and disturbed, and we should be able to say is not okay without being named as the bad guys (girls). Expressing anger at plagiarism is all that people are doing here. No one is getting personal or nasty. There certainly isn’t any cyber bullying going on in this discussion. Throwing that out there when it doesn’t exist only lessens the impact of real cases of cyber bullying.
In general terms, I think plagiarism fails to generate ongoing outrage because it only affects a few people directly. Yes, it’s bad for us all and bad for the writing community - I know that - but human nature seems to work in such a way that we handle what’s directly in front of us. If you’re not the victim in the sense that it was your work stolen, you comment and move on. That doesn’t mean you think plagiarism is good. It just means it’s not directly on your radar screen. I’m not saying this is a right or wrong reaction. I just think it’s how we work with regard to many issues. An issue like this comes up and we express our outrage and then, since we aren’t the ones dealing with lawyers and stolen material, we go on about our business.
Kass said on 01.13.09 at 08:35 PM • [link]
Right on. But people defend people who do immoral/unethical acts every day. Look at how the Senate’s admitting Roland Burris, who is an amoral slimeball, unworthy of being admitted to the office of dogcatcher much less the Senate. Look at how my evil governor Rod, who appointed him, isn’t getting removed from office yet and wasn’t stopped from appointing him.
I think it’s a society-wide problem, not just a romance community problem.
Susan Helene Gottfried said on 01.13.09 at 08:51 PM • [link]
All I keep thinking of, as I hear these “don’t blame the plagiarizer; it’s the fault of everyone else” arguments from the accused’s side is that we’re really discussing the literary equivalent of rape. Women don’t ask to be raped. No one asks to have their words plagiarized.
Let’s stop looking at who’s fault it is and work on changing the attitudes surrounding the problem. Only then will things change.
Leslie H said on 01.13.09 at 08:59 PM • [link]
The person who wrote the SB that crud, was obviously overwhelmed with anger and had no intent but to do harm. They succeeded. I am certain you are very hurt indeed.
For that wound, I offer this balm:
“Doing the right thing; no matter how difficult; no matter what the consequences- is meaningful.” Fr Michael Dodd
You did the right thing.
Anon76 said on 01.13.09 at 09:21 PM • [link]
And I’m going to say this again from the last long discussion about the CE issue.
She was not a sweet gray-haired grandma when she first began taking other’s words…continuously. Sweet, I’m sure, but not of ill or failing health.
At the time of the Nora R, JD scandal over just this issue, she could not have been blind to it. By that time she was a well established author with an agent, lawyers, and publishing house lawyers, editors, and the like. While the general masses might have missed the whole thing at the time, those deep within the industry would have known. Internet or not, glad-hand meetings and publishing mags existed then and still exist to this day.
For CE’s fanbase to accept that she was unaware of any unethical behaviour on her part is a slam against her. To suppose that she hasn’t the brains of even a high school student (and some will argue younger ages than that), is a disservice to her and her intellect. This was ongoing, not just a mere slip once or twice. Do you really feel she was that dodgy all those years?
Sigh.
cofax said on 01.13.09 at 09:35 PM • [link]
What surprises me, though, is the fact that no tribal activists have called her or her publishers to task.
Actually, I saw a fair amount of commentary about the racism in her books on some livejournal communities like Deadbrowalking and DebunkingWhite. Just because no organized protest was made doesn’t mean nobody noticed.
I also think the tribal community is so very used to this kind of representation that people decide it’s not worth making a fuss about, or they’d never get anything productive done. Pick your battles, and all that.
Sylvia said on 01.13.09 at 09:42 PM • [link]
I’m on a board which deals with plagiarism. The bottom line is - it’s wrong. You shouldn’t steal from others. And when you’re caught? You should be ashamed. I see no shame no remorse - and I find that the most disturbing thing of all.
karmelrio said on 01.13.09 at 09:42 PM • [link]
If you haven’t already, please advise RT Orlando conference staff about the not-so-veiled threat made at the end of the post and ask for appropriate security.
Stay safe, Bitches.
azteclady said on 01.13.09 at 09:50 PM • [link]
Agreeing with the “be careful” advice, wholeheartedly.
On the tribal activism—or lack thereof—over CE’s continued abuse and stereotyping of Native Americans, I wonder if part of the indifference comes from the whole, “well, it’s just trashy romances, not meaningful stuff” Like, say, sports mascots.
To Morgana: but of course, this is bullying! The entire Bitchery has shown up to CE’s home, chanting for a lynching mob to come and get her.
*sigh*
It’s so disheartening to see that there are people within the academic and writing community who don’t seem to get what plagiarism is.
During the height of last year’s discussions, I had a self-professed middle-school teacher (self-professed ‘cause I don’t know this woman from the man in the moon; for all I know, it’s a three legged alien from Jupiter) tell me that if one comma was added to a sentence then it wasn’t plagiarism.
And this person is teaching youngsters about the moral and ethical evils of plagiarism? No wonder these kids get to college and pull the stunts they do.
(Don’t even get me started on the “poorly integrated research” crack by a published writer)
Lynne Connolly said on 01.13.09 at 09:52 PM • [link]
I also think the tribal community is so very used to this kind of representation that people decide it’s not worth making a fuss about, or they’d never get anything productive done. Pick your battles, and all that.
Probably the same reason that the Scots clans don’t sue the authors of “highland” novels, or the descendants of some of the nobility don’t take the authors of some Regencies to court.
Mind you, I remember the family of First Officer Murdoch taking the makers of “Titanic” to court and winning.
SandyO said on 01.13.09 at 10:09 PM • [link]
If the Edwards fanbabes attend Sarah’s workshop at RT and a thief steals their wallets and their ID’s, is it Sarah’s fault?
Theft of intellectual property, ie: one of the most dearl of a person’s being, their words, should NEVER be condoned.
Helen M said on 01.13.09 at 10:11 PM • [link]
I want to write something pithy and insightful, but I’m too angry at the idea that someone is trying to blame the SBs for Edwards’ stroke. Yes, it is sad that she has suffered a stroke, but it is NOT the fault of the SBs. The SBs did not make Edwards take other people’s words and claim them as her own, nor are they the originators of the idea that to do so is immoral and wrong.
I’m also infuriated by possibility that any action that the correspondent and their cronies take at the seminar could make others who may have thought about speaking up about plagiarism think twice.
Plagiarism is wrong. Profiting from it (in money, popularity, cookies, whatever) is wrong. Aiding and abetting it is wrong. Supporting it is wrong. Trying to hush it up / sweep it under the carpet / confuse the issue by calling the victim/reporter of plagiarism mean (girls) is wrong.
Grrrr.
Erin Lang said on 01.13.09 at 10:11 PM • [link]
You know, when I was in high school, teachers warned me against plagiarism in exams or else I would fail my grades and my future to get in any college or work (GCSEs awarded from high school work go under scrutiny of almost every employer in the country).
Now in college, if I plagiarised I not only lose marks, but also completely squandered my chances in getting to work in a museum, my time working for it, and would be awarded with nothing but a debt of £7,000 from the government (WHILE my family is paid in dollars) JUST for paying my tuition.
As far as I recall, Cassie’s work is STILL on the rack, she got money out of it, and she still has a cult following. HOW could she suffer a stroke?
P.N. Elrod said on 01.13.09 at 10:15 PM • [link]
I second that about having extra security at the Orlando event.
You are there to give your panel, not be harassed by troublemakers with an agenda.
The audience is there to learn and be entertained by you, not be used as a tool by troublemakers.
You two did the right thing. It could not have been easy.
If some morally selective twits have a problem with that, then they should ask the convention for their own panel slot so they can try to convince writers and potential writers why plagiarism is such an advantage to one’s reputation, not to mention a great career-building move.
Morgana said on 01.13.09 at 10:20 PM • [link]
Sazzat
You can be a self actualized, mature, feminist and still be kind and compassinate. The argument that you have to hostile and abrasive only serves to negate the work of strong women.
As for the seriousness of this situation, perhaps a bit of perspective is in order.
Jessa Slade said on 01.13.09 at 10:22 PM • [link]
Don’t take other people’s stuff. It seems so obvious.
Do you suppose maybe plagarism has become ever more acceptable because most people take other people’s stuff all the time—downloading music, sharing datafiles, reposting videos, etc.? Maybe that helps foster a false sense of ‘what’s the harm?’
Anon76 said on 01.13.09 at 10:38 PM • [link]
Sadly, some people will never get the concept of how something like this is wrong.
If they stand in WalMart and watch someone stuffing books from the shelves under their coats, eek, STEALING.
But the words within those books, FAIR GAME.
Sigh
mirain said on 01.13.09 at 10:41 PM • [link]
I just wanted to mention for those who were talking about how editors can’t be expected to read every book and catch every instance of plagiarism: there are computer programs for this. You type in any suspect text and get hits if it matches published or online material. I used one such program when I teaching college, and if my department could afford it I’m sure all the larger publishing houses can, too.
Lori S. said on 01.13.09 at 10:45 PM • [link]
Morgana,
I have seen plenty of compassion towards Ms. Edwards in this discussion. Many have expressed concern over her stroke and subsequent ill health.
However, it does not take away the fact that she REPEATEDLY plagarized other authors, has refused to acknowledge said plagarism and never had the decency to show a single shred of remorse for her actions. That is very serious and worthy of discussion, and IMHO, scorn from folks who understand the depth of her actions.
She stole. She lied by omission. And yet, she still profits from her actions. Yes, that is worth a little scorn and derision as far as I’m concerned.
I won’t even go into what I think of the fucktards who have the balls to blame the victims and whistleblowers.
At least, that’s the perspective of this self actualized, mature, feminist.
Anon76 said on 01.13.09 at 11:01 PM • [link]
Jessa, you said
“Do you suppose maybe plagarism has become ever more acceptable because most people take other people’s stuff all the time—downloading music, sharing datafiles, reposting videos, etc.? Maybe that helps foster a false sense of ‘what’s the harm?’”
What you are talking about is a bit different. But still relevant.
In the instances you are talking about, a person is sharing the artist’s work, not messing with it a bit and claiming it as his/her own.
When you download a new song, remix it a “hair”, give no acknowledgement to the original creators, sell it for profit without seeking approval of the original group, then yeah, you step over the line.
The sharing of files and what not is a bit different than remixing an artist’s work for profit and claiming it as your own. A different animal.
Hmm, hope I expressed that right. LOL
Ezri said on 01.13.09 at 11:07 PM • [link]
Jessa, I think you’re right about that one. In the case of say, a store, when something is physically stolen, you can immediately see the impact. With plagiarism it’s more faceless because you can’t see how the person whose words have been stolen is affected. In many cases people probably figure that the person whose words they used will never even know.
Anne Fadiman’s got a great essay on plagiarism (in “Ex Libris” I believe, but I might have my essay collections mixed and it’s in her newer collection, “At Large and At Small”) in which she talks about how her mother had her wartime correspondences nicked by someone else who then published them under his own name. The only time her mother got to see her writing in print was under someone else’s name. That definitely put a fine point on things in my book.
Chrissy said on 01.13.09 at 11:10 PM • [link]
I’ve had strokes. Numerous, actually, because of a terminal lung disease from which I suffer. They are nobody’s “fault.”
Perhaps years of living a lie had consequences?
I really don’t think any legitimate writer is worried about the opinion of a fan who rabidly defends somebody who steals the work of others and becomes belligerant and hostile when caught.
I don’t see this as cruel irony. I see it as the universe tweaking her soul and asking her to pay attention.
I hope she listens and heals soon. No unkindness intended… the world will keep teaching you until you learn.
snarkhunter said on 01.13.09 at 11:15 PM • [link]
Oh, please. There has been hostility and abrasiveness throughout this debacle.
The funny part is that it’s largely coming from the people who defended Edwards—see the letter above for a classic example.
Was there, perhaps, a tiny modicum of glee in finding out that the books were plagiarized? For me, I mean? Yes. I admit it. I’m probably a horrible person. But I have never felt that Edwards “deserved” an illness—just recognition of her bad acts. Same with everyone who does wrong. Apparently, if we’re not mealy-mouthed pansies, going on about how we shouldn’t speak ill of anyone, we’re hostile and abrasive. Yeah, that’s a feminist argument.
On a totally different note, every time I see Edwards’s books in the store—or, God forbid, a display of them—I have the overwhelming urge to grab a pen and paper and stick a note reading, “This book is plagiarized” inside the covers.
Also, speaking of the reactions of the various tribes to Edwards’s books…when the scandal first broke last year, I was home in Washington state. I grabbed the list of suspect passages Candy had sent me and ran off to the nearest library, which happens to be the library on the reservation of the S’klallam tribe. What did I find there? Two Edwards novels. (Didn’t find the plagiarized passages till after I got back to my university library, either.)
SusannaG said on 01.13.09 at 11:16 PM • [link]
I must have been a plagiarist - I had a stroke in 2004.
snarkhunter said on 01.13.09 at 11:18 PM • [link]
I’ve read Ex Libris (thrilled to see that she has a new essay collection, by the way!) and I thought the essay on her mother was about how her mom wrote the bulk of the book, and is credited on the title page, but the male author got the majority of the acknowledgment. Not really plagiarism so much as a sexist literary community only recognizing the contribution of the male writer. But I could be misremembering this, too. :)
snarkhunter said on 01.13.09 at 11:30 PM • [link]
Snarkhunter, you’re probably right - I keep lending out my copies of “Ex Libris” and then having to order new ones, so I was posting from memory there as I’m between copies at the moment. The part that stuck in my head was when she mentioned how her mother had to read her dispatches in a book with someone else’s name on it.
I’m thrilled to hear that you’re a fan too! Definitely check out “At Large and At Small” - it’s just as good as “Ex Libris” though the topics are on more general topics rather than books.
Strangely when I googled to try to figure out which volume the plagiarism essay was in, I turned up an article talking about how one of Anne’s anecdotes from “Ex Libris” was stolen by another writer a la Neale Donald Walsch. *sigh*
http://gawker.com/news/new-york-times-book-review/in-the-nytbr-writers-are-now-plagiarizing-about-books-246924.php
Lorelie said on 01.13.09 at 11:43 PM • [link]
Me too! With a post it note!
liz said on 01.13.09 at 11:53 PM • [link]
This is SO familiar to me. No, JD didn’t have a stroke, but people were appraised of and blamed for her health. Her health came up pretty quickly, as I recall. And people said the community should leave her alone and investigate how it happened. Which was impossible, because any discussion of it led to being told to leave her alone. And there were attacks on NR and those supporting her. (Ah, cane of candy, the last but not the least)
Nothing will change. But I say to SB yes on the extra security and I say to anyone blaming the publishers - where does personal responsibility lie? If I, the author, am not to blame for the words I place on the page then who is to blame for anything? There is no malpractice, there is no theft, there is no fraud. As long as the person doing the harm is not the person responsible, there is no wrong. Red Dress theory.
I wish CE better health, I do not wish her anything else, good or bad. As long as she writes her own books, I have no problem with her.
Silver James said on 01.13.09 at 11:54 PM • [link]
Ooh-ooh! I want those stickers. I will happily stick them ON the cover whenever I come across her books. Though…I suppose, technically, I’d be guilty of vandalism. *sigh* Oh well. I still like the sentiment even if we can’t carry it out.
Lorelie said on 01.13.09 at 11:55 PM • [link]
That’s why I was thinking post it notes. If it’s easily removable, it doesn’t count as vandalism, right?
kimmako said on 01.13.09 at 11:58 PM • [link]
If I show up at the RT convention with Savage blahblah written out longhand, can I get a contract? I’m not doing anything wrong, am I? and those women who are going to slap down SB will even help me, right?
I did know about CE, JD, but not about Jennifer Crusie. I won’t be buying anything by her again, despite having really loved (and got another friend to buy as well!) Agnes and the Hitman.
Ann Somerville said on 01.14.09 at 12:05 AM • [link]
Look, you are confusing copyright violation with plagiarism.
Plagiasism is not illegal (Except in academic situations.) You will not be fined, sent to jail or convicted of plagiarism.
You can be fined, sent to jail or convicted of copyright violation. But usually you are sued, not prosecuted.
If I quote Jane Eyre verbatim in large chunks in my novel, it’s not copyright violation, but it is plagiarism.
If I write fanfiction about Stargate Atlantis, it *might* be a copyright violation but is almost certainly not any kind of plagiarism as I am not using other people’s words and pretending they are my own.
Sometimes plagiarism is also copyright violation, and sometimes it’s not. In Edwards’ case, we have both situations.
Can we, after a year of discussing this, try to keep the two concepts straight? It doesn’t help when we don’t even understand what we’re complaining about.
Ann Somerville said on 01.14.09 at 12:14 AM • [link]
And going by past behaviour in the romance community, if someone *did* point it out, then someone else would wheel out a Native American who wasn’t bothered by it, to justify it and slam anyone who was upset. Then the original complainant would be accused of not being Native *enough* for their words to matter, and the whole thing would end with that person being accused of being a racist for even mentioning it in the first place.
And then some other person, who lives to stir shit, would say, why didn’t the Native American complain about the way Muslims are portrayed in all the Sheikh stories, and at that point, the Native American who has been trying to raise consciousness over and over about the tokenism and misrepresentations of minority cultures, will realise that white people don’t bloody care about these issues at all, they just love to get their digs in so no one will never take real problems seriously. And then the Native American decides trying to educate idiots is a waste of their time and energy.
Certainly what happened during the Jewel of Medina thing, and during the matter raised oh so innocently above.
Mind you, educating idiots about anything tends to be an exhausting and futile business, as the SBs have found over the plagiarism business.
Grrrly said on 01.14.09 at 12:21 AM • [link]
*raises hand* is it really bad form that i have been doing this, and get a gleeful little thrill when i do? *g* there’s a barnes and noble in a little town in california’s central valley whose employees, at least once every couple of months, have to go through the romance aisle, find the scattered cassie edwards novels (i at least don’t take them out of the romance section), turn them spine out, and remove post-its that say “plagiarist”, “thief”, “these words are stolen”, “not an original work”, “based on-no, wait is someone else’s story” and “what about the ferrets?”.
i try to keep it down, cause it’s “my” store, and i like shopping there and like the employees and don’t want to cause too much extra work for them. i wouldn’t want to get caught at it, but i’m almost hoping i do so i can enlighten them as to the reason. i also engage anyone i see picking up a cassie edwards novel while i’m browsing, and tell them why they don’t want to spend their money on it.
i guess my actions could be called “mean” and “hounding”, but-wait!- no, nevermind. thought i felt a twinge of sympathy there, but it was just gas. :)
spamword: hair79 why yes, my hair has been approximately 79 different colors. i’m telling you bitches, this thing is eerie!
Ann Somerville said on 01.14.09 at 12:27 AM • [link]
Wouldnn’t it just be easier to tell them what your issue is? And how much it bothers you as a customer to see what they’re stocking?
Seems to me your actions are pestering the wrong people, and only creating a nuisance. Edwards is the problem, not the book store staff.
Grrrly said on 01.14.09 at 12:41 AM • [link]
the bookstore staff rarely has any say in what the store stocks, especially a big chain like b&n;. which is why i email corporate monthly doing exactly what you suggest, and telling them why they shouldn’t stock this author. and there again, big chain store, not much effect.
as much as “pestering” the staff, whom i’ve overheard being pleasantly bemused in their speculation, i think my actions cut right to the source, causing whoever finds and picks up that edwards novel to wonder what the deal is, and thus potentially robbing her of an easy sale. and i’m all about not lining the pockets of a thief. you protest this your way, i’ll do it mine.
Laura Vivanco said on 01.14.09 at 12:48 AM • [link]
I did know about CE, JD, but not about Jennifer Crusie. I won’t be buying anything by her again, despite having really loved (and got another friend to buy as well!) Agnes and the Hitman.
I thought I’d been following this thread OK, but now I’m wondering if I missed something. Jennifer Crusie hasn’t plagiarised anything. I do remember that she made a comment in 2008, in response to the plagiarism allegations against Cassie Edwards, which was controversial. If you’re referring to that, have you also seen her post over at her own blog? She explained there that she felt she’d expressed herself very badly at
a blog that does very good reporting and reviewing, albeit savagely with a strong undercurrent of S&D;[snide and demean]. This site has one author that it returns to regularly to hold up for ridicule. It’s the only thing about this site that I don’t like, but I’ve never said anything. And that’s where I screwed up. I should have said something. I should not have sat at home with my laptop and watched the repeated humiliation of this author without saying, “What did she do to you guys, run over your dog?” Then they posted comparisons of her work with non-fiction sources, and it appears clear that she lifted her information word-for-word from those sources which is plagiarism. Normally, I’d have said, “She goes down;” plagiarism is serious and rampant in our industry, and any time we can make the point that it’s wrong, we should. But I read it and thought, “Are they ever going to leave this woman alone?” and posted the run-over-your-dog comment, which was taken as a refutation that plagiarism is a serious thing, and which I deserved because I was, once again, going for snide-and-derision instead of making myself clear. So I went back in and said, “Plagiarism is bad, but what you’re doing to his author is a crime, too,” or words to that effect. Then I left the site. Haven’t been back since. Not going back. Because while it’s a great site by smart passionate women who love romance, I don’t like the S&D;there. I wish them the best, but I’m not their reader, which I’m sure has been pointed out in the comments by now, several times, loudly.
and Candy contributed to the comments thread, and gave her point of view:
When you posted your running-over-our-dog comment, notice how I didn’t jump all over your ass. I laughed, and agreed that yeah, Edwards has been our pinata for a while, and I even felt kind of bad about it. See, if people point out something about me, I’ll cop to it if I think they have a point–otherwise I’ll argue the crap out of it, because you can take a girl out of Debate Team, but you can’t take the Debate Team out of the girl. You and Rich and all the other people who’ve felt oogy about the way we’ve treated Edwards have every right to feel oogy and every right to tell us we’re being cruel. You’re right. I’ve been a stone-cold mean-ass bitch about the Cassie Edwards novels. Do I think I’m justified in saying what I’ve said about them in the past? To be honest: Yes. (I don’t think people who haven’t read them can understand. Which sounds obnoxious, like we’re some sort of sorority with some kind of hazing requirement, but I don’t know how else to put it.) Will I stop now? Yes, but not because I’m a penitent stone-cold mean-ass bitch, but because once it became clear to me just how pervasive the unattributed usage issue was, it stopped being funny. It stopped being about bad taste and it started becoming a ethical issue. Bad taste = funny. Ethics? Not so much.
Becky said on 01.14.09 at 01:03 AM • [link]
How did Crusie get into this conversation? I know she posted something within hours of the story breaking, basically saying “why are you picking on Edwards again?” (And I have to admit, my first reaction that day, before I understood the situation, was “another post about Cassie Edwards?” She was the regular butt of jokes around here before the plagiarism was revealed.) Lumping her in with Edwards and Dailey implies that she is a plagiarist. As far as I know, no one has ever made that claim. If you take offense at her reaction that’s fine, but please be careful when you group people together. Plagiarism and disagreeing with the popular opinion are two very different sins.
michelle said on 01.14.09 at 01:15 AM • [link]
Sorry I lost all respect for Jennifer Crusie with her blog posts. Basically she can dish it out and it is “funny”, but others are being snide and mean. She tried to shift the focus off plagerism being a serious issues to those mean girls.
Also it was just sickening that some of CE fans were taking potshots at Nora Roberts. She has always been the epitome of professionalism.
Plagerism disrespects the reader by its dishonesty. It is a slap in the face to the victim and the readers. Anyone who supports plagerism shows the same disrespect for the reader-it’s like giving the reader the middle finger. How can people respect the romance community if large portions can’t respect themselves?
Morgana said on 01.14.09 at 01:19 AM • [link]
Is there a wee bit of the green eyed monster taking over? Would people be as angry if Cassie Edwards was not the author of a zillion books. Just putting that out there.
Also I do think that it is wrong to copy other peoples work (Of course this is a no brainer) but as far as the other authors needing to be compensated or feeling hard done by. Who are these other authors? Were they romance writers or even in a genre likely to be read by CE readers.
No one has ever ripped off my work (shocking I know) but if they did I would a) be ever so pleased that someone other than my mother and advisor read my work and b) want to send the offender a list of writers far better than me to steal from.
And another minor point, she was not stealing plots or even scenes from other writers. She took research about tribes and used it without citing it but as a fiction writer is she expected to provide a work cited page?
Anon76 said on 01.14.09 at 01:19 AM • [link]
Yeah, I totally agree that Crusie should not be brought up in this discussion.
She voiced her opinion, nothing more, nothing less. That I personally disagree with said opinion does not make her a “bad guy” in my eyes.
Ann Somerville said on 01.14.09 at 01:22 AM • [link]
That was pretty much my objection to Crusie - attacking the whistleblowers is low, and gives comfort to those who want to sweep this under the carpet. Everything I’ve read of Crusie since then about this, has been all about her and how painful it’s been for her to be upbraided for her behaviour. An industry professional of her stature should just damn well have known better, and at the first hint the story was about plagiarism, she should have shut up until she had the facts, if she couldn’t say something more constructive.
Kismet said on 01.14.09 at 01:24 AM • [link]
The problem as I see it, is that there is no across the board consequence for a writer who plagiarizes the works of another. If each publishing house and writers association took an official stand against plagiarism and codified rule and consequences for such actions (losing existing contracts, fines, and non-membership for X number of years for example) then perhaps these things would not happen. Ok, that is wishful thinking, but at least then they can’t wail “but I didn’t know it was wrong”, they will only wail “But I should be the exception” ( I work in retail and have no faith in humanity anymore… can you tell I just came out of the Xmas shopping season?).
In the meantime… (and certainly not to excuse plagiarism) I wonder if this may have been more common amongst writers of a certain era? Think about it… how many older books have you read and thought “gee, I think I’ve heard (sentence, story line, etc) before”, but had no idea where. I am left wondering if this may have been more of an issue, but until the advent (and common usage) of the internet there was really no way of searching through every book until you found the common thread. Certainly not to say it was ever right, but merely that they never thought they would be caught.
In an after thought, how do writers handle the following situation: Say you are in the midst of a WIP, peacefully minding your own business, when you open a review page (or the book, or another authors website). All of a sudden you realize that there are some shocking similarities in your work with this other work (names, or character personalities, situations, maybe even a similar sentence)... What do you do? It’s simply a curious question.
Anon76 said on 01.14.09 at 01:24 AM • [link]
Sigh,
Morgana, you are just determined that this kind of theft is a compliment to the original author.
I wish you the absolute best in your writing career, and also hope that someday you don’t rue your own words when someone steals your work. The grass is always a bit greener (or sere) from the other side of the fence.
A.M. Hartnett said on 01.14.09 at 01:26 AM • [link]
I’m curious as to which perspective you want. She should be all forgiven because she’s in ill health? SBTB should apologize?
No to both counts. If Cassie Edwards’ ill health is stress-related, it is unfortunate but such is life.
Ann Somerville said on 01.14.09 at 01:27 AM • [link]
That she only wrote half of.
Puhlease, Morgana. You sound like a plagiarism apologist’s bingo card.
No, we’re not jealous. No, plagiarism isn’t flattery (what, are you insane?) Yes, it’s important. And no, it doesn’t make a difference if the ripped off authors were romance authors or not (what, are you insane?)
She took research and copied it verbatim. That’s not ‘using’, that’s stealing.
Tell me, have you got any formal education at all? Because if you have and don’t understand what she did, then you just weren’t paying attention in class.
michelle said on 01.14.09 at 01:34 AM • [link]
Aack, sorry I spelled plagiarism wrong-I tried to go back and edit but I just got invalid edit as a response. Drat.
Anon76 said on 01.14.09 at 01:38 AM • [link]
Kismet asked,
“In an after thought, how do writers handle the following situation: Say you are in the midst of a WIP, peacefully minding your own business, when you open a review page (or the book, or another authors website). All of a sudden you realize that there are some shocking similarities in your work with this other work (names, or character personalities, situations, maybe even a similar sentence)… What do you do? It’s simply a curious question.”
Well, first off. the “reality” is their are very few “new” stories. Most revolve around basic plot lines around for Milleniums.
However, a simple sentence you find familiar to your own work in progress isn’t big warning signs. I’m sure authors have pulled here and there a version of the scene with “Play it again, Sam”. Or whatever the original line is.
The real problem is when you pull more than just similarities, but verbatim paragraphs and what not. If that is what you this is what a person sees in his/her WIP, and it’s on another writers site, then you have to evaluate two things:
1) Did you copy the text verbatim with the intent to label it as your own? (Any writer will tell you that the thought and characters for a story can be written all over the board with only those things. That no two people will write them the same unless in partnership.)
or 2) The story online or published has verbatim portions from your WIP in it and you were on crit groups, shared it somehow, or what not. However, you do have your original dated files to show that you have officially been ripped off verbatim.
These pose two very different scenarios
Anon76 said on 01.14.09 at 01:42 AM • [link]
Crud,
Should have edited my last post. Oh well, time for dinner rather than chewing on this again.
Lori S. said on 01.14.09 at 01:43 AM • [link]
*headdesk*
Exactly what part of THEFT do you not understand, Morgana? Do we need to pull out the sock puppets?
Morgana said on 01.14.09 at 01:43 AM • [link]
Yes I do have an education, complete with all sorts of letters after my name. What about you? But even if I was a high school drop out I would not resort to calling people names if they did not agree with me.
What do you do for a living? Are you a frustrated writer by any chance?
Madd said on 01.14.09 at 01:50 AM • [link]
What’s the perspective? That it’s just a romance novel? Just a book? Just a few words? Nothing to give someone a hard time about?
When I was 5 years old I stole a pack of Rolos from a store. My mom realized this when she was loading us in the car. She chastised me and walked me back into the store and made me go up to the register by myself, return it, and apologize for taking it. I remember I was really scared about going up to the man and admitting what I did. I was bawling the whole time, but I learned the lesson and never did it again.
If my mother saw things from the perspective that Cassie Edwards fans seems to view plagiarism, not only would she have spared me the lesson, she would have let me have the chocolate. After all, I was just a little girl.
The fact is that she stole other people’s work. Someone else spent time, energy, and money to research their subjects and then put the effort into their writing. It’s not just about sentences artfully strung together. It’s about someone profiting, without so much as a nod, from something you put your resources, maybe even bits of yourself, into.
Ann Somerville said on 01.14.09 at 01:57 AM • [link]
Well, either you’re lying, or you bought the qualifications, because no one who went through really truly education could fail to understand what plagiarism is or how serious it is.
As for me, I am [real name redacted] BA, BSc (Hons I), MSc. If you had clicked on the link under my name on the comment, you would see I *am* a writer - and a published one. So, not frustrated at all, thanks. And my other job is web/database developer, where I have to be careful not to use other people’s code without attribution because, duh, that’s *theft*.
But maybe you went to those *special* schools where you didn’t learn about any of those things, and students could copy and paste to their heart’s content and no one would ever care. I’m sure your advisor would be absolutely thrilled to hear you standing up against the raging forces of public opinion to defend a unrepentant thief.
Suze said on 01.14.09 at 01:58 AM • [link]
Hey, Susan Johnson did.
As a fiction writer, she’s expected to work her research findings into her story in her own words.
Plagiarism:
Sarah realized that January 2009 would mark a year since the plagiarism scandal that rocked the ferret world, as well as the romance world, so she asked Jane to examine the issue and do a “State of Plagiarism” analysis, so to speak. After much back and forth dialogue, we’ve come to the following conclusions about the way the issue of plagiarism is treated by our community.
Using someone else’s idea in my own work:
It has been a wild and wonderful year since ferrets everywhere (not to mention their romantic fans) were shocked black-footed by the discovery that best-selling author Cassie Edwards had repeatedly plagiarized her research sources. In honour of this august anniversary, Sarah and Jane are presenting the results of their plagiariffic ruminations to readers of both their blogs.
Madd said on 01.14.09 at 02:00 AM • [link]
I quote to your from an article written by Paul Tolme, a journalist she stole from:
and later in the article:
Ruth said on 01.14.09 at 02:01 AM • [link]
I refuse to believe that anyone that’s been through any level of higher education believes that it would peachy keen and awful flattering for someone else to steal their work product.
Does not compute.
morgana said on 01.14.09 at 02:04 AM • [link]
Not to get into a pissing contest Ann but what Uni did you go to?
Ann Somerville said on 01.14.09 at 02:15 AM • [link]
University of Queensland, Australia
Open University, UK
Kingston University, UK
Now pony up with the amazing universities *you* went to, and the degrees, which makes you such an authority on the insignificance of plagiarism.
You are, of course, making this ad hominem because you don’t have a leg to stand on.
Madd said on 01.14.09 at 02:18 AM • [link]
Why is it that when anyone says “Not to make this a pissing match ...” my brain insists on adding “Ooops, sorry, was that your leg?”
HelenKay Dimon said on 01.14.09 at 02:20 AM • [link]
Why exactly has this become a my degree is better than yours battle? Irrelevant. Let’s stick to the issue of plagiarism and stay away from all of the ego stroking stuff.
Ann Somerville said on 01.14.09 at 02:21 AM • [link]
Careful, Madd - keep this up and I may have to offer to marry you :)
Morgana said on 01.14.09 at 02:25 AM • [link]
Went to Edinburgh which is worth 10X any uni you listed. For those of you that don’t know the Open University is a joke here in the UK. So lets not count that as a real degree.
BSc, MA, MSc (Research)
And read my posts. I have made it very clear that I do not agree with theft of any kind. I just do not delight in bullying. No need to kick someone while they are down. It is all about grace.
Kismet said on 01.14.09 at 02:25 AM • [link]
Never mind. Grrly, I misread your post. I thought you were actually writing ON the books. Post its.. go for it. That doesn’t bother me.
Again, Christmas shopping season left me very bitter to anyone who thinks they are so special that the rules don’t apply to them and don’t give a shit about the people working behind the counters… and causes me to jump the gun and look like an idiot.
Ann Somerville said on 01.14.09 at 02:25 AM • [link]
It’s only relevant because someone who claims to have ‘many’ letters after her name, doesn’t think plagiarism is that big a deal. And if someone who’s been through a system where there are very strict penalties for an action about which they received very clear warnings all through their academic career, apparently doesn’t get it, how do we make the general public understand it?
Which is why the post-it note idea is fine in principle, but I suspect most people finding one on an Edwards book saying ‘she’s a dirty rotten plagiarist’ will just shrug and go ‘I don’t care what religion she is’ and buy the book anyway.
Ann Somerville said on 01.14.09 at 02:26 AM • [link]
Stay classy, Morgana.
Barb Ferrer said on 01.14.09 at 02:28 AM • [link]
Actually, there were also similarities found with her work, as it were, and Oliver LaFarge’s 1929 Pulitzer Prize-winning Laughing Boy.
Not that it matters a screeching damn to me. She stole other people’s work, almost verbatim, passed it off as her own, and profited.
The fact that her backlist continues to be reissued and she continues to have new books published offends me beyond all reason. And if that makes me a hardass, well then, that would be one of the nicer things ever said about me.
Sian said on 01.14.09 at 02:38 AM • [link]
Brilliant post, I’m not going to wax lyrical but plagiarism should never be tolerated - it’s lazy, petty and undermines the entire profession.
philippa said on 01.14.09 at 02:41 AM • [link]
Plagarism is bad, mmm’kay? I haven’t read any of Ms Edwards’ books, and I’m not going to now. Nor have I read anything by Janet Dailey.
I just wanted to say that it is taken seriously in Australian universities. We had a Vice Chancellor of a major university sacked in 2002 because it was discovered that he had not attributed some material in several books of his written in the 1970s. I don’t think he had degrees stripped, but sacking a Vice Chancellor is a MAJOR deal.
Ann Somerville said on 01.14.09 at 02:49 AM • [link]
Doesn’t matter. They are 10x less wonderful than other universities. Plagiarism is only a big deal for the little institutions [/sarcasm]
Laura Vivanco said on 01.14.09 at 02:58 AM • [link]
Just for information, for anyone interested, the University of Edinburgh “views any case of plagiarism extremely seriously, and is committed to ensuring that plagiarism is, wherever possible, both detected and dealt with appropriately.” The number of cases of plagiarism investigated by the University have been increasing over the past few years (precise figures available here). There was a huge leap in the plagiarism cases investigated in the academic year 2007/8. From what I can see here, the University began to use the Turnitin program early in 2007.
Sharon Buchbinder said on 01.14.09 at 03:06 AM • [link]
It is a lot of work to document plagiarism, but it is critical to demonstrate that it is serious and has consequences. My university has a 2 strikes and you’re out policy—has had it for quite some time. I have used SB’s posts on CE to show students that plagiarism is theft and can ruin your life—like stealing a car.
Lori S. said on 01.14.09 at 03:08 AM • [link]
Um….
Morgana, meet Mr. Sock Puppet. He’s going to act out a little play with the help of Mrs. Roberts….
Spam Word: simple65 - insert joke here
Nora Roberts said on 01.14.09 at 03:11 AM • [link]
~Is there a wee bit of the green eyed monster taking over?~
Oh, what crap! What absolute crap. SHAME on you for even going there.
Plagiarism. Not envy. Unless it’s the plagiarist who’s envious enough to steal.
Damn, that one comment, out of everything on here just pisses me off.
I am not envious of CE. Sarah and Candy are not envious of CE. Jane of DA is not envious of CE. I’ll guarantee the majority if not all of the posters here aren’t envious of CE.
I am so freaking tired of people trying to find excuses for this disregard of ethics, this selfish taking of someone else’s work and having the utter gall to claim they did the work and they shed the sweat. And so freaking tired of the apologists and the ones who find a way to distract from the issue.
Envy, my ass.
I’m tired of being slapped at for standing up for myself and for what’s right. I’m tired of seeing the messenger roasted and the victim vilified, the plagiarist comforted and soothed.
There, there, we still love you. Pat, pat, you didn’t mean to do it. Hey, she/he should be flattered! Bullshit.
It is NOT the victim’s fault or the messenger’s fault or the editor’s fault or the publisher’s fault. It is the fault of the person who was too lazy or too selfish or too greedy or in too much of a damn hurry and decided, hey, I can just copy that, change a couple of words and I’m done.
Envy? For God’s sake, what’s wrong with you? I’ve written more books and sold more than CE, and I’m angry. I’m sure as hell not envious.
Persephone Green said on 01.14.09 at 03:11 AM • [link]
This email form just ate my comment because I entered the captcha word incorrectly. (Or so it says…Duh duh duuuuuuuuh!)
I’ll do a brief summary here.
Emmy: I was offended and am still offended now. Cassie Edwards’ book covers and back flaps are the kind of ‘exoticism’ that is both racist and disgusting. It was stuff like that that alienated mefrom the romance genre in the eighties and nineties. I would not read her work whether or not she had stolen from people because I can’t stomach looking at that bigoted ****. FWIW, I saw several comments on her racismwhen the plagiarism imbroglio first broke out. However, I think most of those commenters were people unfamiliar with her work, meaning that a lot of romance readers have been seeing that crap for years and said nothing. It’s vile, and it’s unacceptable.
I have no problem with well-written, historically accurate interracial romances. They interest me both personally and as a vital sub-genre in any main genre, both as a reader and a multiracial woman. But failing to address the inherent problems such a couple would face, both socially AND emotionally, does a disservice to what otherwise could be a great story. Mrs. Edwards, from the excerpts I managed to read, utterly fails to understand this.
snarkhunter said on 01.14.09 at 03:16 AM • [link]
You know, I was going to respond to this…but my lowly PhD from an American university might not make me qualified to do so.
I will, however, say that if someone stole *my* work, the work that I slaved over for years, and whose writing style I paid very close attention to, I would not be proud. I would be PISSED AS HELL, and would do whatever I could to discredit the other person.
Plagiarism is not flattering, and researchers own their writing and their ideas just as much as fiction writers do.
snarkhunter said on 01.14.09 at 03:19 AM • [link]
Ooh, me too! My students loved it. Ferrets became a bit of a byword in my classes last semester.
I think my university must just be behind the times when it comes to plagiarism—it’s possible our whole conference is, from what I’ve heard. I do fight it, and I do make the consequences clear to my students, but, as I said, our plagiarism policy doesn’t really have teeth.
I like the 2 strikes policy, though.
Nora Roberts said on 01.14.09 at 03:19 AM • [link]
I have no degrees, except honorary ones. I have a high school diploma. I still know what plagiarism is. I know exactly what it feels like when it happens to me. It’s not in any way, shape, form flattery.
Those who think it is are idiots. That’s not name calling. That’s a straight-up fact.
Flo said on 01.14.09 at 03:27 AM • [link]
As a teacher I bless you, I thank you, I PRAISE YOU for talking about plagiarism. In ANY FORM.
I WEEKLY get papers that are lifted wholesale from the internet (granted these are middle school kiddos trying to test the waters). But the important fact is not the kids are trying it and getting shot down but that THEIR PARENTS get angry at teachers for not letting it “slip by”. Since it’s “OK” to plagiarize in the “real world”.
It is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT OK! No matter HOW it affects the person after they get caught. It is NOT their work. They do NOT get to put their name on it. PERIOD! (Redundancy!)
So, thank you, SmartBitches, from a teacher who is struggling to hit it home to her students and their parents that this is important and can and WILL effect their entire educational career. (Although the new VP having plagiarized a paper and gotten to where he is now… sheesh… what a role model *sighs*)
snarkhunter said on 01.14.09 at 03:36 AM • [link]
::sigh::
Anyone else afraid we’re fighting a losing battle?
Sharon Buchbinder said on 01.14.09 at 03:37 AM • [link]
Amen, Nora!
Several years ago, I received a manuscript for peer review from a prestigious medical journal. I opened it up, read the first page, said, “Boy that looks familiar.” It was Thanksgiving, I set it aside, went back to it a week later…and discovered the entire introduction was MY WORK.
My entire freaking abstract published in a major health research organization’s conference proceedings was cut and pasted as their introduction. Mine, not theirs, not cited, not referenced. MINE. I went a bit beserk. Called the deputy editor, the editor in chief, called for the authors’ heads. A conference call with the miscreants, their department chair, and the editors ensued. The two authors, who were Assistant Professors, claimed they “didn’t mean it.” It was “an oversight.” To this day, I have no idea what happened to them—if anything.
There are only so many experts on certain topics. They obviously never expected the person they ripped off to be their reviewer. Karmic justice, methinks. It still burns me up when I think about it.
snarkhunter said on 01.14.09 at 03:42 AM • [link]
I LOVE stories like that. I knew of another one where a student plagiarized from his professor’s book. For that class.
Needless to say, the kid got caught.
But every story like that, there are stories like those of a couple of grad students who (re)published 40-something articles before they were caught. What tipped the university off? Not the fact that it’s inhuman to publish 40-odd articles as grad students. Nope. It was the fact that their knowledge of physics didn’t seem to match up to the level at which their articles were “written.”
Sharon Buchbinder said on 01.14.09 at 03:48 AM • [link]
LOL. That’s happened to me, too! The excuses are my favorite: “I must have read it so much I memorized it!” or “I don’t know how that jumped into there!”
snarkhunter said on 01.14.09 at 03:54 AM • [link]
Yeah, you’ve gotta watch those sentences and paragraphs. They’re slippery little buggers. Jump right out of one paper and into another just when you least expect it.
Writing: like eating casu marzu, in a way. Wear protection, lest the
maggotssentences leap into your eyes.Sparky said on 01.14.09 at 04:27 AM • [link]
Morgana:
Edinburgh university is a respected insitution (as is Open university, for that matter). I think you do your Alma Mater no favours by displaying such willful disregard towards plagiarism.
Edinburgh has better standards than that.
Polly said on 01.14.09 at 04:32 AM • [link]
Some of the southern (American south) universities still have strong honor codes, which include plagiarism (as something they cover, not something they support!). I went to UVa, where the honor code prohibited lying, cheating, and stealing. Plagiarism certainly fell within those bounds. The UVa honor code had a single sanction, and if you were found guilty of an honor offense, you had to leave the university. No do-over, no one semester off. There were a lot of problems with the system, but one of the things I was very proud of as a student was the strong institutional stance on plagiarism and academic theft. That’s not to say that it never happened (in fact, one of the plagiarism-finding softwares was developed by a UVa professor because of a widespread problem in a class of his), but I applaud the sentiment.
Polly said on 01.14.09 at 04:34 AM • [link]
Not that southern universities have a monopoly on honor—though they usually make a more vocal fuss about it.
desertwillow said on 01.14.09 at 04:53 AM • [link]
I’m sorry CE had a stroke; it can’t be easy for her or her family.
However, I don’t believe it was because of the stress caused by the plagiarism scandal. Nor do I believe what she did was right - stealing ideas is wrong. Just like stealing research, stealing books, stealing identities. It’s not brain surgery.
I don’t understand why her fans are so nutso about the whole thing - how do they know when they’re reading the words of Cassie Edwards and when they’re reading the words of some poor underpaid wildlife writer? Speaking of which is that poor ferret-writing guy being compensated for the misappropriation of his hard work? Has anybody? Seems like there’s enough money so that it can go back to the victims since CE’s books are still on the market? Does anybody know? Are there lawsuits pending?
SB Sarah - you be careful at that conference. You may want to post a wacko watch.
Hugs,
Fionn Jameson said on 01.14.09 at 04:55 AM • [link]
Oh. GOD. She didn’t, did she?
“Went to Edinburgh which is worth 10X any uni you listed. “
*rolls eyes again and again and again*
Is that elitist or you just not being able of getting your head out of your ass?
It doesn’t F#$%@$%@ matter what uni you got out of, or if you even went to school. Stealing is stealing is stealing is stealing. What would it take for you to understand such a simple concept like that? CE lifted entire excerpts and didn’t even credit her sources and that’s not stealing? And because people have caught her in the act and bring her issue up from time to time, we’re kicking her when she’s down?
When she starts apologizing and admitting she did wrong, that is when I’ll shut my mouth. But never before.
Copying is the highest form of flattery, my ass.
Ann Somerville said on 01.14.09 at 05:33 AM • [link]
I’m going for (c) - both.
Of course Morgana’s elitist. Her whole attitude is ‘it’s only fiction, it doesn’t matter’.
[As an aside, my ‘joke’ universities expected better punctuation and grammar than this. My highschool did, for that matter.]
So basically, the authors who aren’t as famous as Edwards needn’t be considered at all, or feel resentful about being stolen from.
I really, honestly think Morgana is a troll, and not a university graduate of any kind. My money is on undergraduate troublemaker. Sadly, she probably believes the tripe she’s spewing, but if she’s the faker I believe she is, at least the situation in higher education isn’t as dire as her attitude would lead us to think.
God, I hope not anyway. The alternative is unspeakable.
Holly said on 01.14.09 at 06:17 AM • [link]
In case anyone is still reading this - not to be too flippant, but the thing about the CE scandal that struck me was how badly - how clumsily, clunkily, obviously - she did it.
I’m an English lit major and a librarian, and I’ve written training material for research classes I’ve taught, so I’ve done lots of expository writing and honestly, if you cannot read a set of facts, and then proceed to repeat those facts in your own words, then you have no business calling yourself a writer. I’m not being harsh. We’re not talking creativity here - we’re talking mechanics. It’s not about taking dry material and turning it into something shiny - it’s about taking dry material and making it just as dry, only using different words. She either didn’t want to take the time to do that, or she literally couldn’t do it.
I’m also an aspiring romance writer (coughjust finalled in a competition for the first timeahemcough) - and I can’t imagine how one could accidentally lift whole passages of another’s material—it’s just not possible. It doesn’t happen. And if someone more famous than me were to use my words as their own? I would not be flattered that a big famous bestselling author liked my work enough to steal it. I’d wanna kick a bitch’s ass.
One more thought? There’s something peculiar to the romance field - both writers and readers - about being nice. Maybe it’s because so many of us who read and write it are women, but I hate that kind of womanish - and I mean that in the pejorative sense - sensitivity. Like when the SBs write a particularly scathing review, and the fangirls show up to chastise them for hurting the author’s feelings. I don’t think readers of any other genre do that. It’s ridiculous. One of my crit partners - and I like her work - is frequently a judge in romance writing competitions and I asked her once what she does when she gets a particularly bad entry - I have read some really, really bad stuff from other aspiring writers. Some people out there write like I sing. (But you know what? I don’t audition for American Idol.) I asked her how she approaches it. She said she always tries to find something positive to praise, because no one deserves to have their dream smashed. Now, as I said - in case she’s reading this site - I like her work - she’s a good writer. But I disagree with her there.
And I think it’s that attitude that makes a lot of romance readers loathe to criticize obvious and blatant misconduct, and it’s one of the reasons romance isn’t taken more seriously as a genre.
Did I just write all that? Indeed I did, and I’ve successfully avoided working on my WIP for another thirty minutes.
And I have to ask - is that the REAL Nora Roberts who posts on here? Cause OH MY GOD…...
Jennifer Armintrout said on 01.14.09 at 07:07 AM • [link]
Pardon my french but…
WHO THE FUCK WROTE YOU THAT LETTER?
What kind of a person believes that if you do something morally reprehensible and get caught, your problems thereafter are directly caused by the people who caught you in the act? What kind of screwed up logic is that?
I wish Ms. Edwards a speedy and complete recovery, because no one deserves to have a stroke. And I’m pretty sure that having an anonymous friend sending these kind of letters isn’t going to help reduce her stress level.
Lori said on 01.14.09 at 07:26 AM • [link]
This entire topic makes my head hurt. Maybe all of CE’s asshatted supporters are giving me a stroke.
The people who say that the topic should be dropped because CE is a sweet old grandma have a severe logic deficit. As far as I can tell she has stolen other authors’ work her entire career. She’s a old thief now only because she wasn’t caught back when she was a young thief. Getting away with something for a long time isn’t the same thing as being innocent.
The people who took issue with the Bitches for “piling on” because of all the posts need to ask themselves why they felt that way instead of thinking, “Damn, Cassie Edwards plagiarized a lot.”
The people who say be plagiarized is a compliment make me wonder what they would say if someone broke into their house & took their stuff. I’m guessing it wouldn’t be, “I’m so flattered that someone thought I had such good taste. But really my neighbor’s stuff is so much nicer they should have taken it instead.” I also really doubt that most people would forgive the thief because s/he was ill or under a lot of pressure or having “issues”.
As so many others have pointed out, this is not actually a tough or complicated issue. You can’t copy other people’s work for any reason. If I plagiarized from anyone, including myself, I’d be thrown out of my Master’s program and would be ineligible to be readmitted at any point in the future. The offense would go on my record and no other reputable school would admit me either. One offense would ruin my entire career—-and I’m fine with that because I don’t still other people’s work.
Shiloh Walker said on 01.14.09 at 07:27 AM • [link]
Ummm…no. Not here, at least. I wouldn’t want to be the author of a zillion books, if the books weren’t solely and completely and wholly mine. It’s only worth it if I’ve earned it and worked for it.
Why does it matter who the other authors are? Theft is theft. It doesn’t matter if it’s a bestseller plagiarizing nonfiction or if it’s a couple of college kids writing fanfic. You don’t claim ownership over work you didn’t create.
Whether or not the other authors works were likely to be read by readers of CE is irrelevant. Doing something wrong just because you’re pretty sure you won’t get caught, IMO, just makes a person weak-willed. You do the right thing, whether or not people are watching, whether or not you’re likely to get caught. Anything less means the person doesn’t have a whole hell of a lot of integrity.
I’ve never had my work plagiarized, but I can guarantee you the last thing I’d feel is ‘pride’ or ‘pleasure’. I get my work pirated all the time and when people tell me I should feel ‘pleased’, all that does is make me laugh. Having something stolen from you doesn’t inspire warm fuzzies. It just doesn’t.
She still took other people’s work. It doesn’t matter than she didn’t steal entire scenes from romance writers, or plots. She took the words of other writers and tried to claim they were her own.
No matter how a person pretties it up or tries to sidestep the fact, it’s plagiarism and it’s wrong, and if we can’t respect the rights of those who write outside the romance genre (I mean, it was just research material… /sarcasm) then who in the hell are we to complain when others don’t show respect to us, the readers and writers of romance?
Lori said on 01.14.09 at 07:29 AM • [link]
One more thing.
Melissa, this
I totally making me want to read a romance set during Watergate. If none exist I’m tempted to try to write one. I swear there’s a great romantic comedy in there just dying to get out.
Lori said on 01.14.09 at 07:36 AM • [link]
You know what this site really needs? The ability to go back & edit comments to fix all the typos you made because you were writing while in full on rant mode.
Sharon Buchbinder said on 01.14.09 at 07:47 AM • [link]
Ahh…but then we’d miss all the lovely Spoonerisms…=)
Polly said on 01.14.09 at 08:03 AM • [link]
Lori,
Have you seen the movie Dick? It’s a comedy about Watergate. Very silly and pretty funny.
Peaches said on 01.14.09 at 08:53 AM • [link]
So based on the evidence we can assume your parents bought your way in, eh Morgana?
JaneyD said on 01.14.09 at 08:56 AM • [link]
amy lane said on 01.14.09 at 10:29 AM • [link]
Dudes, right before Christmas, two of my high school Juniors were caught STEALING SOMEONE ELSE’S WORK PACKETS AND PUTTING THEIR OWN NAMES ON THEM.
Their punishment? They have to be in my class again this semester. That will be punishment enough.
Punishment for me!!!
Plagiarism is overlooked because honor is no longer a family value—it’s that simple. The concept of violating a personal code is considered archaic and naive—apparently, the only people who don’t believe this, are the people who craft their own work and take pride in it as their own.
Nobody who participated in the Cassie Edwards unmasking wished harm on Ms. Edwards. But writing is supposed to be a way of establishing immortality—writers like Edmunt Spenser and Shakespeare were proud to point out that because they wrote about their beloveds, their beloveds would live as long as their words.
It’s flat out not fair to take the lasting artistic impression of a person’s soul (whether its science journals or poetry) and pass it off as your own. It is dishonorable. If we want to consider ourselves an honorable civilization, we should be more offended when people dishonor our art.
laurad said on 01.14.09 at 10:30 AM • [link]
I only went to trade school. But even with a piddling associate’s degree, I know what plagiarism is. I also know that it’s wrong.
I also just went to Defenders of Wildlife and donated. The ferrets still need us.
kaetchen said on 01.14.09 at 10:46 AM • [link]
Is it just me, or does the above quote sound something like this: “I would be flattered if I were raped, because that would mean that someone other than my husband wanted to *#$ me.”
Plaigarists don’t steal things because they respect the material (or the author, for that matter). They steal them because they have a use for the material. They want the ‘A,’ the accolades, the contract, the money, or the credit.
May B. said on 01.14.09 at 11:46 AM • [link]
I already post this on Dear Author but would like to share you about my opinion.
I can’t believe they blamed Sarah for the stoke. It’s just BS.
The first thing I was told when attended graduated study in the US was Plagiarism. The attitudes toward plagiarism (in academic field) was different in some country (at least in my country). I didn’t mean that you can plagiarize anyway you wanted but it is not strictly that we must give credit to any idea that was not our own when writing class paper. When I arrived in the US, I was told that it is not acceptable to used other word or idea and pass it as my own. I must give credit in every single thing I used from other people.
I do not see any differences from academic to fiction writing. And I am not tolerant to plagiarism.
As for the accusation, it is rubbish. Sarah is not forcing anyone to commit the wrong. She do it herself. Sarah is just the one who discover. And it is the kindness of her to share with us so we would know the truth.
And if there are any link between the stoke and plagiarism (which I do not think it is), it is her karma.
As for the RT revenge, I am going to attend RT and prepare to stand by Sarah and I think a lot of people also will.
One last thing, for the author who calling you “dishonorable”, I hope they will be plagiarized by someone. So they will know the feeling.
West said on 01.14.09 at 12:03 PM • [link]
I’m reinterating my statements from Dear Author- What’s really getting me here, in the overall plagiarism issue, is that some people, other authors even, don’t seem to understand what the “big deal” is. Plagiarism is stealing, stealing is wrong. How hard is it to connect the two? I just don’t understand these people. Would they justify it if she’d walked out of someone’s house with their television or radio? No. Just because writing might not be seen as a tangible possession doesn’t change the fact that it belongs to someone.
And @Lynne Connelly- my problem with her is that she won’t admit she plagiarized, and she’s still profiting from it. Maybe this stroke has ended her career, I don’t know. I’m sorry she had a stroke, I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. But her career *should* have been over after she was caught stealing other writers work. The fact that it wasn’t is a large part of what’s bothering me. There are people making excuses for her rather than holding her accountable. Herself included.
Oh, and as for some of it being on her editors- what do you want them to do? Read every fiction and non fiction book that has an even remotely similar concept to see if she’s plagiarizing? No. That’s ridiculous. This is completely on her.
Ann Somerville said on 01.14.09 at 12:23 PM • [link]
Um, you mean like Cassandra Clare, Janet Dailey, and Naomi Novik (the latter out and proud about her continuing fanfiction writing)?
Not going to touch the legality or otherwise of fanfiction as that’s a can of worms for better educated minds than mine to deal with. However there are a number of former fanfiction writers published big-time now - Jennifer Pelland is one - and epublishing is stuffed to the gills with them. J. J. Massa was accused of plagiarism - still publishing. (Note, I have no idea if the case against her was ever proved, but certainly the accusation did her no harm at all.)
Publishers don’t care about what you did as a fanfiction writer. And once you’re established firmly enough, they don’t care what you steal, provide you plead your dog’s pregnancy or something. If they exerted a firmer ethical stance, this entire conversation would be moot.
The only person I know whose career came to a screaming halt as a result of plagiarism was in fact an epubbed author, Lucia Logan, and that only because she herself pulled the plug and went away. Looking back on it, I think she may well have been given bad advice about what was and wasn’t acceptable, since her publishers didn’t even know if it constituted plagiarism or not. It wasn’t the covert nicking of bits and pieces here and there that Edwards perpetrated with a clear intent to deceive.
I actually feel rather sorry for Logan now - she paid a much greater penalty than Edwards did, or Dailey, and can we really say she was worse than them? At least she didn’t steal the words and copyright from someone still in a position to make money out of them.
Tanja Cilia said on 01.14.09 at 01:59 PM • [link]
Oh, I am guilty! Not of plagiarism, heavens forbid, but of having mentioned Cassie in a blog…
http://www.timesofmalta.com/blogs/view/20080418/tanja-cilia/bearing-false-witness
December Quinn/Stacia Kane said on 01.14.09 at 03:03 PM • [link]
I was going to respond to Morgana, but as I only have a GED I don’t think I’m qualified. Poor, dumb me! Perhaps I could enroll. Morgana, I could go to Edinburgh too; why don’t you send me all your papers and classwork and everything, and I’ll erase your name and write mine in or white-out your name and type mine instead, then photocopy it, and hand it in? That would be fine, right? I mean, I’ll attend the classes and everything; you’ll just be saving me a lot of time I would otherwise spend actually doing the work, and you’ll have the warm fuzzy glow of knowing someone likes your work enough to take credit for it. Okay? Just email me if you’re interested. I really want to have letters after my name too! You could help me in that goal! (Maybe I could come work where you work, too, and you could tell me all your ideas and I could present them to the boss as my own; that would be fine too, right? I’m just trying to make sure you’re feeling flattered.)
Because without those letters after my name, really, I’m just worthless. I try; I write books and publishers buy them and pay me for them, and they sell well and get good reviews, but it’s just not…enough, somehow. It’s not approbation enough for me. I won’t know I’m really good—won’t feel I’ve truly made it—until someone (preferably someone with a Collidge Edukashun) steals my work and tries to pass it off as their own. Then, and only then, will I feel good about my accomplishments.
Oh, why won’t that blessed day arrive?
Lynne Connolly said on 01.14.09 at 04:35 PM • [link]
And @Lynne Connelly- my problem with her is that she won’t admit she plagiarized, and she’s still profiting from it.
I get that, I really do. CE hasn’t said anything, as far as I know, for or against. All I’m asking for is a bit of compassion, now her health is so compromised. Not that she deserves this or that, because it’s clear she did what she did.
I would like to see the people she plagiarised compensated in some way, perhaps in the way I suggested (they get the royalties for the books, not Edwards). Maybe I’m asking for Christian forgiveness, I don’t know, since I’ve never been what you might call a paid-up churchgoer.
Oh, and as for some of it being on her editors- what do you want them to do?
Their job. Even if they didn’t recognise it as plagiarism, they should have spotted the insertions as a significant change in author “voice” and infodumps. Reviewers over the years, even before the plagiarism came to the fore, have commented on it, so shouldn’t her editors have noticed it first? My editors do, and they wouldn’t have let me get away with it. And one of my editors looks up everything - so yes, some editors do that. The good ones.
Stacia - word. I happen to have qualifications, but they mean squat to my writing career, so I don’t use them (except when doing historical research - they can get me into libraries)
Morgana - I’m with Ann, this is a troll. And no, I didn’t go to Edinburgh University, but I taught a class there once (the value of qualitative data, in case you’re interested). Edinburgh is a prestigious university that takes cases of plagiarism extremely seriously. I doubt you went through any degree course there without it being made perfectly clear that any plagiarism would result in immediate expulsion - or whatever they’re calling it these days. Point is, you’d be chucked out for doing it, and your name would be mud.
Nora Roberts said on 01.14.09 at 04:59 PM • [link]
~Their job. Even if they didn’t recognise it as plagiarism, they should have spotted the insertions as a significant change in author “voice” and infodumps.~
But that was always her style, right from the beginning. An editor would assume that was her voice—no matter how many others found that voice flat or false. She had a readership who enjoyed it, and it was fairly unique to her.
Why should an editor question it or consider plagiarism?
In the Dailey case, once you looked at the work, the plagiarized material sort of jumped out—when you were looking for it. There was a subtle stylistic change even though she had altered a few words here and there. But I certainly don’t blame her editors for not recognizing this and wondering, hmm, did she steal that part?
This had also gone on for years and in multiple books.
P said on 01.14.09 at 05:08 PM • [link]
Attempting to care…head desk. Don’t care. This isn’t academic writing, but I give you that it someones. But doesn’t it just make us all happy that we found a website about something that we would never have looked for or cared for one bit. It’s viral marketing at it’s best. Go Miz Edwards, you’re doing them a favor. I have never read her but I think I will.
Ok, yes, I went to uni, plagiarism is bad. I am so over this topic.
Quizzabella said on 01.14.09 at 05:23 PM • [link]
OMG SBTB tried to kill Cassie Edwards!
Seriously, I can’t get my head around why people are still defending the woman. She’s given no apology for stealing other authors’ work - and that is what it is plain and simple; theft.
Obviously it’s sad that she’s had a stroke, but I present the alternative theory that it was brought on by guilt from ripping other authors off over the past couple of decades.
Lori S. said on 01.14.09 at 05:29 PM • [link]
Thank you for summing up why this is such a problem…
P said on 01.14.09 at 05:32 PM • [link]
Romance novels, serious business.
Not saying she didn’t do the wrong thing. Just that you are making me not care.
karmelrio said on 01.14.09 at 05:33 PM • [link]
Holly said upthread:
WORD, Holly. Either “being nice,” or “being careful what you say, because this is a small industry.” I gave up counting how many times I heard this sentiment, or some variation thereof, at RWA National 2008 workshops, or in onlinne classes I’ve taken recently.
I understand that the intent behind these statements is probably, “Behave professionally.” But what I internalized was, “be nice, and for gawd’s sake don’t speak up or make waves.’ As someone who just completed her first mss and will soon query agents and editors, this sentiment chills my blood.
YMMV.
Barb Ferrer said on 01.14.09 at 05:48 PM • [link]
Believe me, I hear you. And it was something I actually addressed on my blog last month because I’d had it up to HERE with that sentiment.
If you’d like to read what I had to say about it, it’s here:
http://fashionista-35.livejournal.com/446133.html
But the Reader’s Digest version is WHY? And who made up these stupid “rules” anyway? There’s a vast difference between behaving professionally and taking loads of unmitigated crap just because you’re scared one of the eleventy billion writers waiting in the wings will be given your slot.
I think that’s one of the most frustrating elements of this industry—how authors are made to feel like disposable commodities. No wonder we don’t get het up about plagiarism—we not only have very little regard for the words, we have very little regard for those who produce them. After all, how many of us who are writers have heard some variation on the theme of “Oh, I could write a book.” Not “I want to write a book,” but could.”
Like it’s easy or something.
Jenna M said on 01.14.09 at 06:02 PM • [link]
Ignore it, it’s a troll. Not a particularly amusing one either.
No imagination, no witty repartee, not even an amusing dirty limerick, just lame Fail all around. I give it an F. So sad, in my day trolls use to try harder :(
Also the “but she’s just a sick old lady and it was only plagiarism…” sentiment is one of the major reasons that Plagiarism is taken seriously. That somehow suffering the consequences of being thief should be mitigated by something , whether it be sex, age, or health.
No one wished or caused Ms Edwards’ stroke, and as truly sad as that is, she’s still a thief and is still profiting off the hard work of others.
snarkhunter said on 01.14.09 at 06:04 PM • [link]
Then why are you here? I mean, you don’t care so much you actually commented twice.
That’s really not fair to Naomi Novik. She’s never been accused of plagiarism or copyright violation. Yes, she’s an open fic writer. But she’s never actually been accused of copyright violation.
Apparently, the estate of Patrick O’Brien just doesn’t care that much. And honestly, why should they? Novik’s stories might get people more interested in reading Jack & Stephen’s canonical adventures, which means more $$ for the estate.
Don’t lump Novik or any other honest fic writer—whatever your feelings on fan fiction, it’s done for love, and not for money—in with plagiarizers.
P said on 01.14.09 at 06:15 PM • [link]
Jenna M, not a troll, sorry. Lurker, big difference. Not even trying to be funny, were you? I love this blog. My have you all gone on about this though.
snarkhunter, smile, I am not here for you. I am allowed to vent my frustrations the same as you, I am sorry I am not falling into line. I read all these blog posts because I respect SBTB. But this is turning into a hate parade and we know how well they’ve worked out before.
hope said on 01.14.09 at 06:18 PM • [link]
I think the biggest problem the industry has is that most discussions of plagiarism have the intellectual content of tastycakes. Most commenters just want to share in a Come To Jesus moment where the preacher casts out the sinners from the congregation. It isn’t about plagiarism, it’s about mob psychology. A real post on plagiarism would talk about the fact that all authors borrow from others, that there are ethical limits to intertextuality, but they are hard to define, that novels have not typically come with either footnotes or bibliographies, that Ian McEwan credited his source in an author’s note and for some people that wasn’t enough. But none of that would be as exciting as talking about Cassie Edwards.
Amanda said on 01.14.09 at 06:34 PM • [link]
The case was never proven, because it will never go to court. After spending over £3000 in legal fees I had to settle for a letter from her attorneys saying that “my client has ceased publication of ‘The Edge’ which is now unavailable for purchase and will remain so. We hope and assume your client will refrain from filing any unneccessary legal action in regerence to same”. Why did I settle for such a crappy outcome? Because, frankly, I didn’t have the $12,000 retainer to pay an attorney to take it to Federal Court. The problem was that I, as an English Writer, never paid for and took out a US copyright on my story - well, why would I have considering that I live in a civilized country that accepts copyright is established the moment I put pen to paper? That means that at this stage I can only proceed if I pay for a US copyright now and that means I can’t win compensation for any period before I take out copyright - and since the publisher pulled the book from sale a year ago, there is no current revenue to win. And yes, it’s not about winning money - it’s about upholding a principle. But $12,000 will pay an awful lot of mortgage so….
Funnily enough, I had reluctantly accepted the situation until I read your post, Ann. Suddenly I feel like a victim all over again. Don’t get me wrong. I am not blaming YOU at all, in any form whatsoever. Just the situation you have highlighted with your comment. Even after all my online proof, all my legal letters, and surely the most damning thing of all - that the book in question is now DEAD,DEAD,DEAD… there is still a doubt in people’s minds - and, frankly, that hurts so much that if I find myself thinking that maybe I could find that $12000 if I really, really tried.
And I only tell you that to emphasize how incredibly much it HURTS to be the victim of plagiarism. Enough to pointlessly throw money at a hopeless cause in some insane hunt for vindication that probably is never going to happen really because even if I was stupid enough to take out another loan to settle this case legally once and for all, there will still be people out there who won’t understand that JJ Massa did anything wrong anyway.
Let’s face it, if people are still sticking up for CE and JD, what chance has a little person like me ever going to have to get support?
Oh… and btw… no I don’t feel flattered whatsoever that she stole a story off lil ‘ol me. I feel furious, hurt, abused and pretty damned poor at the moment considering my legal bills but NEVER flattered.
Jennifer Armintrout said on 01.14.09 at 06:36 PM • [link]
Hope, are you saying that because it’s about romance author plagiarizing, it’s not an intellectual discussion?
Come to Jesus my ass. This isn’t about the fact that she didn’t credit her sources. This about her not crediting her sources and lifting entire passages verbatim from them.
snarkhunter said on 01.14.09 at 06:37 PM • [link]
We’ve talked about all of that here and at DA. Many, many times. This post wasn’t supposed to be about CE, except inasmuch as this week marks a year since the discovery of her transgressions. The point was to look back in that year and see how/if our thoughts on plagiarism have changed. Which, clearly, they haven’t.
Honestly, I never get tired of this conversation. Not b/c of CE, but because every time we have it, the same exact problems come up, over and over. There’s a crowd who can’t spell plagiarism. There are people who argue that CE didn’t steal “real” writing. There’s the bibliography argument. On and on and on. I think we should have a plagiarism post every month until the definition SINKS IN. But that’s me.
As for McEwan, he credited his source…but did he steal her words? I’ve never been clear on that.
Fair enough. I just am always a bit confused by comments on posts that read “I just don’t care.” I mean, obviously, you are entitled to do so. I’m entitled to not get it.
snarkhunter said on 01.14.09 at 06:38 PM • [link]
Ahh!!! Italics attack!
Nora Roberts said on 01.14.09 at 06:59 PM • [link]
Amanda, you have my sympathy.
P, care or don’t care, I’m not going to stop talking about the issue. I don’t hate CE—don’t even know her—but I hate plagiarism, and have no respect for those who engage in it, or those who find excuses for it.
Hatefest? Read the letter at the top of this column again.
Holly said on 01.14.09 at 07:04 PM • [link]
Pardon me, but intertextuality my butt. We’re not talking about ideas - we are talking about words. We’re not saying that CE should’ve gone out and done the research on ferrets herself - we’re saying that if she had to have ferret information in her book, she should’ve taken what she’d read about ferrets and included it in her own words which, as she is supposed to be a writer, shouldn’t be an insurmountable challenge.
We’re not saying that every writer must come up with unique characters and plots - I’m not sure they exist. We are saying that no matter how many times a particular plot or character archetype has been deployed, a writer should still be able to think of a way to tell the story that does not mimic, word for word, what someone else has already written. And lastly, we’re not talking about a sentence here, or two or three. We’re talking paragraphs. And paragraphs. Yea on into pages. At which point, it’s no longer the “author’s” work.
As an experiment, try taking a coworker’s work effort, whatever your line of work may be, and claiming it for your own. Please note the results and get back to us.
Deb Kinnard said on 01.14.09 at 07:07 PM • [link]
“So where’s the difference between Edwards and this girl?”
The difference between Viswanathan and Edwards is that the former was a first-timer with a big advance in jeopardy. Edwards was a proven money-maker. ‘Nuff said.
p said on 01.14.09 at 07:17 PM • [link]
Actually, the hate I am referring to isn’t in the letter at the top. It’s in the majority of posts after. The letter at the top is wonderfully even handed. Sorry I wasn’t clear.
Amanda said on 01.14.09 at 07:17 PM • [link]
Thank you very much, Ms Roberts. Your sympathy sincerely brings a blush to my cheeks and a warm feeling to my heart.
I have (largely) accepted my situation and am attempting to shrug and walk away from it. What makes me keep piping up in frustration every now and then is the casual way people often say ‘well, if there really was plagiarism, why don’t the victims sue?” Take it from me (and boy do I know what I speaketh of) that the world doesn’t work that way. Legal recourse is not about who is right and has the proof… it is simply about who has money enough to pay the attorneys to present that proof in court.
Besides, as I said before, I’m beginning to doubt there’s even any point in winning a ‘moral’ victory when ultimately there are no longlasting consequences for the perpetrators - regardless of whether they win or lose.
Still, I am a little tempted to go have another tilt at my own personal windmill when finances again allow. So who’s the bigger fool? LOL
Suze said on 01.14.09 at 07:17 PM • [link]
How many billions of dollars are generated by the romance novel industry? Enough to make “billions” plural? Yeah? Okay, then.
Jennifer Armintrout said on 01.14.09 at 07:20 PM • [link]
Congratulations, P, you have won the troll of the year award. Deny it all you want, but no thinking human being would call that letter “even-handed.” You just tipped the scales and revealed yourself.
The trophy will look great under your bridge, though.
P said on 01.14.09 at 07:30 PM • [link]
No Jennifer, I am just saying it isn’t horrible and wishing people ill. That isn’t the feeling I’m getting from you though.
hope said on 01.14.09 at 07:40 PM • [link]
McEwan read the memoir of a woman who’d spent time in a field hospital (my details are hazy and I apologize). He rewrote, but much of his language was the same. He used her descriptions for the sounds and the smells, essentially taking her experience and fitting it into his narrative. He credited her in an author’s note. If he hadn’t I certainly would have called it plagiarism because he had taken from a written source, and even if it wasn’t word for word, the work wasn’t his own. If he’d interviewed her and taken her words and inserted them in the narrative, would that have been unethical? I’m not sure, but ethical or not, it would have been harder to document.
McEwan does credit his source in the note and for some people that wasn’t enough. Some people felt that it was wrong because he left the original piece so nearly “intact.” I think if he’d chopped it up more and rendered it less recognizable that would have been worse. He wasn’t trying to fake anyone out. He wasn’t claiming her work for his own, except in the sense that he had made it a part of his larger work. Because he is Ian McEwan, I don’t think that the “scandal” did him any damage. But what if he wasn’t already famous? If he’d been a newbie, I think he would have been in serious trouble.
I think that people look for black and white in this issue, and the most important part of the discussion (for me, I’m speaking for myself) isn’t in the black and the white. It’s in grey areas. I am not defending Cassie Edwards. I am saying that Cassie Edwards is a soft target. You won’t accomplish anything, as evidenced by the your progress in the last year, if what you really want to do is bang the Edwards pinata some more. It’s sound and fury, certainly, but of no use that I can see to people like Amanda.
Nora Roberts said on 01.14.09 at 07:45 PM • [link]
~Isn’t it enough that you people set out to destroy her career and almost caused her death?
In case you don’t know, which I know for a fact you have been told, Cassie Edwards suffered a massive stroke due to the stress you idiots put on her.
I hope you can live with yourselves knowing what you did almost cost this woman her life. You have deprived her grandchildren of their grandmother. You have caused a lot of innocent people much heartache by your actions.
Everyone is blaming you and your cronies for what happened. Not just her fans, fan club members, etc. I’m talking publishers, authors, editors, and more. I hope almost killing someone was worth the 15 minutes of fame.
If you have any reason to think this is a lie, contact Carol Stacy at Romantic Times and I’m sure she’ll verify the information for you.
A lot of Cassie’s fans plan on being at the RT convention in Orlando just so they can attend your blogging seminar. Instead of it being about the art of blogging maybe it should be about the art of how to destroy a person’s life.~
Oh yeah, definitely even-handed—don’t know how I missed that.
You nearly cost a woman her life, you idiots. Deprived kids of their grandma, *everyone* is blaming you.
Nope, nothing horrible or hateful in that letter. Not a thing.
Elizabeth Wadsworth said on 01.14.09 at 07:45 PM • [link]
Could you post a link to this tool, please? I’d like to vet my own WIP.
Suze said on 01.14.09 at 07:45 PM • [link]
P, are you saying that the letter to the Smart Bitches was even-handed? Or SB Sarah’s post containing the letter was even-handed?
Because I’ll give you the post, but the letter to the Smart Bitches, accusing them of causing CE’s stroke, was NOT. The letter does, in fact, wish people ill, and not very subtly threatens to attack SB Sarah at Orlando.
p said on 01.14.09 at 07:47 PM • [link]
The post Suze. Thanks, it’s 4am and I need bed.
Lori S. said on 01.14.09 at 07:48 PM • [link]
Not worth your time and effort to respond, Jennifer. Trolls are immune to logic and reason, and are best left ignored. It’ll eventually take its trophy and go back to the bridge.
Liz said on 01.14.09 at 07:49 PM • [link]
how in the world are you to blame for causing her stroke? As far as I know stress is not the cause of a blood clot traveling to the brain and rupturing there. It is like saying that if you have a heart attack while having sex your partner is to blame because he/she was too attractive for you not to have sex with him/her. Give me a break!
However, I do feel sorry for her family, because dealing with someone who has had a massive stroke must be extreme hard, depending on the area of the brain that is affected by the stroke. The entire left hemisphere is a scary place to have a stroke because that is where (in most people….i think its something like 90% of right handed people and 40% of left handed people) that the language center of the brain is, so it is possible that she can no longer speak or understand what her family is saying to her, especially if both Broca’s Area and Werniche’s area are affected.
Nora Roberts said on 01.14.09 at 07:50 PM • [link]
~It’s sound and fury, certainly, but of no use that I can see to people like Amanda. ~
I’m not amanda, but I’ve been there, and this is what use this sort of discussion is for me.
It’s brings the issue into the light, again and again, encourages people—authors, readers—to talk about, to see examples of it, hear from those who’ve gone through it. It educates—and without discussions and education, it can’t change. With them, it may.
CE a soft target? I dunno. She did what she did over numerous books, over numerous years. To me, this makes that incident a strong example, and one that needs to be cited when these discussion happen.
mary said on 01.14.09 at 08:08 PM • [link]
Elizabeth Wadsworth: Could you post a link to this tool, please?
I suspect she means something like TurnItIn.Com—I’m not sure I can manage a link, but I’ll try, and here’s the address in any case: http://turnitin.com/static/index.html. It’s largely a company that offers services to institutions, mostly colleges and high schools, but they do have an “individual” subscription offered—not sure if it would be worth it or not. They also used to offer a sample deal, whereby you could get up to ten works vetted for free, just to see if you wanted to buy the whole service, but that’s been a while (and may have been exclusively institutional). Anyway, I’ve used TurnItIn, and it does work for academic essays at least, but it really isn’t enough all by itself.
If there are any other, similar services out there, I’d like to hear about them, too—and about how well they work.
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