Smart Bitches, Trashy Books

All rights to Ms. Edwards’ previously published Signet books except the bits she didn’t write herself have reverted to the author.

There. Fixed that for them.

Signet: “And by ‘irreconcilable editorial differences’ we mean ‘Good god, woman, what were you THINKING?!’”

*bows* Glad to be of service.

The blog entry appears to cut off in the middle of a sentence.  Posting error, possibly?

Tonight, the ferrets drink champagne.

Is it odd that I’ve never read anything by Cassie Edwards?

Neither have her fans.

(Ok, that was unfair, and it’s unfortunate that a mutually beneficial relationship
between Edwards & Signet had to die of a self inflicted wound, but snark dies slowly)

Wow.  I’m shocked that Signet finally did sometihng because I thought they never would.  It’s about time. 

Raising a glass to ferrets. This is to you black-footed ferrets.

My thoughts are that that is a class act from Signet. Yes, I know the outrage in many of us wanted something fast and furious, but it looks like they have taken the time to do a thorough review, investigate the legal and moral implications, discuss the issue with the author, and give her the fairness that a long and mutually beneficial relationship has earned. The statement makes their stance on the matter clear, but doesn’t engage in demonising her (as I would hope a publisher who bears some responsibility for the mess wouldn’t).

So, the part of me that hopes that all authors receive a considered, just response to any accusations of wrong-doing is impressed.

And the part of me that was totally outraged back in January and still is? It’s feeling pretty damned satisfied with Signet, and waiting for statements from the other publishers.

I’m new to this whole thing (where have I BEEN?) but I admit that a tiny part of me feels vindicated - Cassie Edwards is one of the only authors I have ever not read all the way through. I have a tic that makes me finish a book even if it’s reeeeeaaaally bad because I’m crazily fascinated with how it will end - but it this case it was so incredibly awful that I felt the need to pretend I had never picked it up. I have no problem reading books with mantitty on the cover, or females in various states of undress, or both (in fact, no one at work even teases me anymore, since my total non-reaction makes it unfun), but I was actually embarrassed that someone might see name and judge me by it. I felt like yelling, “I have better taste, really!”. And I didn’t even know about the plagiarism.

Also (kind of related but not really), could we have some more stereotypes? Please? I just LOVE assumptions made about entire groups of people! We should have a contest to see how many times the word “savage” is used.

And I forgot to say, kudos (again) to the SBs and friends, for uncovering and researching the extent of the plagiarism.

I bow before the awesomeness of BitchPower.

I’d echo what Bron said.

Signet performed due diligence—and that took time considering the number of books involved. And once that was concluded, they did what I feel is the right thing.

As I writer and a reader, I’m satisfied with that. And grateful to the SBs for bringing the situation to light.

Well said, Bron.
A highly satisfactory conclusion.
Signet is to be commended.

I have to say I thought nothing would come of this. I thought that the author and Signet had ridden out the brief storm of publicity and planned to do nothing more about it.

Clearly, I was wrong, and I am relieved to be so. This has restored a bit of my faith in the honour of the industry.

Well done, Bitches.

Wow. Amazing news. Well done, Ladies.

Like others have said, I’m really impressed with the way Signet handled this. They certainly gave it the time and consideration such a serious situation deserves, and they definitely did the right thing. Now I just wonder what willl happen next for her. While I’ve never read one of her books, and even though she clearly did something very wrong, the whole thing just strikes me as sad and stupid. After all these books, and such a big readership, she loses it all because she can’t be bothered to change big hunks of other people’s writing? Way to throw your writing career away with both hands!

Echoing Bron as well.  I’m glad Signet took their time and reviewed the situation and made a decision based on what they found.  And of course, kudos to the SBs for bringing it to light and for not letting it go, even when there were plenty of individuals out there who didn’t see anything “wrong” with what Ms. Edwards was doing.

Yay, ferrets.  *g*

Wow. Incredibly impressed with Signet. Kudos to them and to the Bitches.

Hallefuckinglujah. 

Me, I’m raising a glass of champagne to all the Native Americans who will no longer have to deal with her racist books appropriating their culture and reducing them to the worst stereotypes prominently displayed on the shelves and promoted by a major publishing house.

Well done, Bitches.  Well done, Signet.  Now we wait for Dorchester and Kensington, right?

I don’t know you are all so happy. 

Mrs. Edwards and Signet going their seperate ways has nothing to do with what you did so you can stop gloating!

Unless you know the exact story you should keep your mouths shut.  If you post the wrong thing you will be opening yourself up to one heck of a slander lawsuit.

I’m very glad to see something come from this. I’m very, very glad to see the publishing industry make a definitive stand.

Thank you to all of you who managed to read for the research. I tried, and couldn’t.

Mrs. Edwards and Signet going their seperate ways has nothing to do with what you did so you can stop gloating!

Well, given that the AP journalist led the piece with: Romance writer Cassie Edwards and publisher Signet Books have decided to break up after allegations emerged in January that in she lifted passages in several of her books from other sources. I’d suspect that it has at least a little something to do with the alleged plagiarism.

I don’t know… just a suspicion. 

And who’s gloating?  It’s not as if the woman is being hung in effigy or anything.  It’s simply a case of being pleased that in this day and age where closing your eyes, plugging your ears, and shouting “lalalalalalala” is all too common in the hopes that a situation will go away, it’s refreshing to see a corporation stepping up, conducting a thorough, measured review, and opting to take a stance.  Period.

As I said, you don’t know what happened.  It had nothing to do with what these people did.  You only know what the AP printed, not the whole story.  LMAO

By celebrating you are making asses out of yourselves.  LMAO

Sam, you’re right. This decision by Signet has nothing to do with what anyone who posts here did.

It has everything to do with what Edwards did.

I wonder that certain types of people just can’t stop tossing around the lawsuit gambit. Even when they have the wrong type of lawsuit.

And when somebody I don’t know believes she can rudely tell me to keep my mouth shut, I’m just compelled to say more.

You’re right, we only know what AP said.  And AP said “after allegations emerged in January that in she lifted passages in several of her books from other sources”.  Just where, SAM, do you think those allegations arose?  If you re-read all the articles on the subject, you’ll know they arose here.

Personally, I never really thought it was making an ass of oneself to celebrate someone doing the right thing, but perhaps I was brought up with different values.

Please, Sam, enlighten us. Tell us the whole story as we have to assume by your posts you’re in the know.

Because obviously, the AP is such an unreliable source.

Rachel, I don’t think she’s tossed her writing career away. I think she’d tossed the casual reader she was picking up away, and those that hadn’t read her and no doubt a fair amount of change. But there is a certain type of fan that will stand by your twice as hard if they feel you’ve been a victim and I imagine (based on observations) that she has a fair number of those. At this point she could probably do all right vanity printing. She’s down and dented, but only out if she decides to be. Other authors have come back from such actions. And I don’t know what she looks like in the international market, with her rights reverting to her she may have income from translations.

But yea, snark put back in the snark box, I am also very encouraged to see Signet took things seriously and an outcome was reached.

Is it odd that I’ve never read anything by Cassie Edwards?

- Madd

Neither have her fans.

- Liz

Ha! This exchange made my day. And SAM, you’ve given my hope. Tell me that they dumped her because they realised her books were racist rubbish? I’d buy you a ferret.

I’m curious as to what this means in practical terms. As of Thursday, when I was at my local grocery store, her books were still for sale. Will they be left there to sell or will they be pulled?

Congrats SBs for some righteous work.

I think it’s to their credit that they took their time. It doesn’t look reactionary; it looks like they actually investigated the allegations and did it all proper-like. Good for Penguin. Class act. And bravo to the Bitchery for starting the ball rolling. I wonder if the other houses involved will take their cue from this?

“Signet has conducted an extensive review of all its Cassie Edwards novels”
Now I wonder why they did that - if “Mrs. Edwards and Signet going their seperate ways has nothing to do with what you did so you can stop gloating”

Good for NAL and good job SBs!

And on a personal note, as a lawyer, I am SICK to FREAKING DEATH of the IGNORAMUSES who throw around the “watch out for the lawsuit” threat.  Let me just say that in EIGHT YEARS of practice as a trial lawyer, licensed in THREE different states and several federal jurisdictions, and as someone who has won multiple verdicts in the millions of dollars range, I spent WAY MORE TIME counseling people to AVOID litigation than to sue.  As by far the majority of my fellow trial lawyers did.  So here, once and for all, to any armchair lawyers, rabid threat-makers, and all-around nincompoops: 

Defamation is the act of harming the reputation of another by making a FALSE statement to a third person.  (Libel is written defamation; slander is verbal defamation).  Therefore, TRUTH is an ABSOLUTE DEFENSE to a charge of defamation.

Get it??  TRUTH.  You can’t sue people for telling the TRUTH.  Well, maybe you can sue them if you find an attorney desperate enough to take a case like that (don’t count on it), but you won’t WIN. 

So maybe read through those passages in the books and the ferret article, among others, again, before you go slinging around the lawsuit threat.  In the meantime, I’ll dust off my First Amendment, because a big part of why I became a lawyer was to protect people from threatening bullies.

My first cynical reaction was to wonder which publisher would pick her up next.  Then I thought about it some more.  Her penguin books now have a major liability attached.  How could any publisher trust a manuscript she hands in to them to be free of plagiarism?  One publisher has dropped her in a rather public manner so no other house could claim they were not on notice.  Contract clause or not about it being her own work, it is the publisher who would end up paying to defend a law suit—or a settlement.

Oh, and THANK YOU, Ms Holliday.

Nora said:

“Sam, you’re right. This decision by Signet has nothing to do with what anyone who posts here did.

It has everything to do with what Edwards did. “

Brava! Exactly on point.

You’re welcome, although perhaps “all-around nincompoops” was a little harsh . . .

If you post the wrong thing you will be opening yourself up to one heck of a slander lawsuit

How many drinks is that worth?

A

s of Thursday, when I was at my local grocery store, her books were still for sale. Will they be left there to sell or will they be pulled?

I was curious about this same thing.  Could also depend which house published them, I imagine.

As for the actual parting of Signet and Edwards, I’m both glad and hopeful she invested enough along the way.

“And on a personal note, as a lawyer, I am SICK to FREAKING DEATH of the IGNORAMUSES who throw around the “watch out for the lawsuit” threat.”
~ pounds desk in delight~
Add my THANK YOU too, Ms. Holliday!

You’re welcome, although perhaps “all-around nincompoops” was a little harsh

But it was funny as hell.

As one of the humorless assbrains who thought celebrating was inappropriate when these allegations arose, I find myself applauding Signet’s response now.  It’s not about being happy to see an author’s career hit the skids.  It’s more about being satisfied that sometimes publishing companies do the right thing.

I’m not celebrating because I have a vendetta against Edwards.

I’m celebrating because this type of abuse MUST have consequences.

I realized that when an author friend published with a small house thought perhaps Edwards had the key to getting a big contract. Heck, the woman sold millions? Right?

This is not the message to be sent.

I am glad to see resolution.  Sometimes the process is slow and you think that is the way of the world now and ‘lo and behold all the “bitching” wasn’t for nothing and thanks to all the hard work and research of the Bitches and beyond you get the feeling of a little satisfaction.

I am definitely not gloating over this parting of ways, but it is what is right.

I’m also with Bron—I’m very glad Signet took the time to do a thorough investigation, and I’m glad they responded the way they did when it was concluded.  Ms. Edwards and Signet had a very beneficial relationship, and it’s a shame that it ended this way…but it’s even more of a shame that such an ending was necessary.

Mrs. Edwards and Signet going their seperate ways has nothing to do with what you did so you can stop gloating!

Really?  Because this site was where the plagarism allegations began.  The news article that SB Sarah linked to references the plagarism and strongly implies, in the first paragraph of the article, that it’s behind the breakup, and specifically references this site.

And I don’t see anyone here gloating; I see people expressing satisfaction that justice was served.

I realize fans of Ms. Edwards are upset; they should be.  If I were a fan of hers, I’d be upset too.  But this is not where the blame belongs.

Huzzah for ethics!

My thoughts are that that is a class act from Signet. ... [T]the part of me that hopes that all authors receive a considered, just response to any accusations of wrong-doing is impressed.
~Bron

I’ll dust off my First Amendment, because a big part of why I became a lawyer was to protect people from threatening bullies.
~Alesia Holliday

*Stands up and applauds the AWESOME of the Bitchery*

*Stands up and applauds the SUPER-AWESOME of the Smart Bitches we exposed this in the first place*

If Edwards decides to go the vanity press route, she’ll have to identify and rewrite all of the passages that infringe on works that are still under copyright: “Laughing Boy”, the ferret stuff, and much more.

She can’t just have someone retype her work and go for it, because fron her on it’s “willful infringement” and that gets very expensive.

western48 ... Off by a dozen years!

Signet/Penguin would not have done this if it weren’t important for THEM, if they didn’t see that their best interests are served by not continuing to knowingly endorse authors who a) violate the basic ethical standards of authorship, b) violate the terms of a contract demanding original work, and c) expose the publisher to copyright infringement litigation.  It was the smart thing, it was the right thing, and hopefully it will send a message that intellectual honesty IS important in a professional publishing environment.

A romance novel Web site called Smart B———, Trashy Books posted excerpts in January from Edwards’ novels and placed them alongside similar passages from reference books and magazines.

This is from the Yahoo news link—I just love that they can’t use the word Bitches!

Well said, Nora and others.  Signet performed due diligence, which they owe to anyone whose made them as much money as Ms. Edwards probably has.  Ultimately, no one “did” this to her—she did this to herself.  But obviously she was getting away with it until SOMEONE pointed it out, and until there was enough outrage to make it a bigger issue than the money her books made.

I’m one of those cynics who thought nothing would come of this, and I’m very glad to have been wrong.  As a college professor who spends a lot of time trying to teach students about plagiariam (bad!) and ethical use of source material (good!), it’s great to have examples that those same values DO apply in the real world (a.k.a. life after college).  Huzzah!

If you post the wrong thing you will be opening yourself up to one heck of a slander lawsuit.

Seeing as slander applies to speech, I think we’re all off the hook here.

Signet has handled this with class and professionalism.
The SBs have been tireless in bringing the facts to light and pursuing this story.
And now there will be a fewer racist, stereotypical novels
out there on the bookshelves.
Talk about a happily-ever-after! I think even the ferrets are thrilled.
Cheers to the SBs and to Signet!

Brava!  Applause to the whistle-blowers for sticking to their guns, and applause to Signet for doing the right thing in the right way. 

I’m glad to see the squeaky wheel actually got greased - there’s hope for the future, after all.  And thanks, Alesia, for triggering the giggles with the word ‘nincompoop’!  :D

story56 - srsly, this thing is causing me some alarm.

We all should be proud (especially the people who did the actual reading and comparing) of having a part in this. But justice won’t be fully served until the royalties Edwards earned are parceled out to the people whose published writing she stole. And that may never happen. Who speaks for the now-dead American Indians whose words she pretended were her own, that are no longer under copyright protection? How vile to supposedly champion a people while stealing from it.

If Edwards wants to reconstruct her career, she can start writing books using her own words for a change, and not someone else’s.

Or she can retreat into whining and self-justification among a small coterie of largely incoherent fans who themselves are dishonest and who thus feel they should support the dishonesty of others. Because I cannot think of any other reason to support a liar and a thief than fellow feeling.

Oh, maybe out of pity. But why pity the thief, and not the victim?

Funny how SAM vanished, there ...

Anyway, good for Signet!  \o/

SonomaLass, yahoo might not have wanted to print it, but I was especially amused to find the following in CBC’s article:

In January, a romance novel website, smartbitchestrashybooks.com, posted excerpts from the Illinois-based writer’s works next to similar passages from reference books and magazines.

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/books/story/2008/04/19/edwards-romance-signet.html

Over at DA, Robin’s posted a link to thank the Penguin (Signet) people for being so well, appropriate.  So I sent off a thank you note, because I couldn’t possibly boycott Penguin—I’d miss the new LaNora hardbound coming out in July!  Now I don’t have to feel guilty for continuing to buy a bunch of books from the Penguin imprint.

I am glad the publisher reacted as it did.  You are all right in that just dropping her in a reactionary way would have left a lot of ‘she didn’t deserve this’ from her fans (not that that isn’t happening) and this way, it seems that she must have truly been wrong after all. 

Sam (a different one, I swear:))

What I know and who I am is none of your business.  I’m just saying that you don’t know what really happened.  Just because the AP printed something doesn’t mean it’s 100% true.

No, Mrs. Edwards’ books will not be pulled and she will continue writing and her books will be in the stores.

You guys are the ones who think they know everything.  Find out the truth on your own.

I was waiting to see how long it would take for you people to start celebrating.  I thought just maybe you had matured a little.  I guess not. 

I have much more important things to do than to argue with a bunch of people who have to go around hurting others just so they can feel good about themselves.

And, Nora Roberts you are the biggest bitch in the industry.  You were one of my favorite authors many years ago.  Thank God I found more interesting authors to read.  You are no better than anyone else so get your nose out of the air and quit acting like everyone is supposed to bow down to you.

As I said before, what goes around comes around.

SAM, are you Cassie Edwards???  Or just a deluded fan??  Your comments have been bringing the lulz today.

Good for Signet to do the honorable thing and also taking the time to assess the situation fully.  Wonder what her other publishers will end up doing…

“And, Nora Roberts you are the biggest bitch in the industry.”

Takes one to know one, darlin’. Classless people have no rights to name calling.

~And, Nora Roberts you are the biggest bitch in the industry~

Why, thank you, dear.

~Classless people have no rights to name calling.~

Let her have her moment. She’s feeling sad and mad, I expect, and there’s nothing to do but throw stones.

Another BRAVA to Nora for her successful back-hand. (Tennis term, I think.)

SAM, when you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you.

The Smart Bitches supplied evidence that Cassie Edwards is a plagiarist. Because they did so, they were able to convince other people of the truth of their claim.

You come here and claim we don’t know what we’re talking about—but then you don’t supply any evidence to support your claim. Of course you aren’t convincing anyone of anything. Your argument is empty.

As to all your cheap shots, you’re certainly coming across as hilariously stupid—have you noticed this website is hosted by the smart BITCHES? Calling Ms. Roberts the biggest bitch in the industry on this site is one heck of a compliment!

Thanks for the laughs, Troll.

No, Mrs. Edwards’ books will not be pulled

No, they’ll just quietly go out of print.  We’re all entitled to our own opinions; I don’t mind debate, but only when discussion is possible.  I don’t believe in engaging people who hold didactic stances, and I don’t believe in pointless name-calling, so I’ll leave it with this: “I know something that you don’t” carries no weight in a discussion.  None.

And now I feel compelled to add that I’d never read Nora Roberts before coming to this website, but after reading the comments she’s posted (yes, I have gone through the archives; is it wrong to stalk a website?), she’s leapt to the top of my “Must Read” list.  I can only hope to express myself someday with half as much class.

~And, Nora Roberts you are the biggest bitch in the industry~

Why, thank you, dear.

Hee!  I was just thinking, actually, what a compliment that was.  (But then, I’m fond of the “bitch” label.)

Wow, sour grapes, anyone?  Sheesh!

And I like bowing down to the biggest bitch in the industry.  ;)

No, they’ll just quietly go out of print.

Er…the Signet titles, I meant.  I didn’t mean to imply that she’d never be published again.

“Let her have her moment. She’s feeling sad and mad, I expect, and there’s nothing to do but throw stones.”

True, but calling one a “bitch” derogatorily is unncessary in any forum.

True, but calling one a “bitch” derogatorily is unncessary in any forum.”

Scratch “unnecessary.” Make that “uncouth” of SAM the writer, and childish.

~True, but calling one a “bitch” derogatorily is unncessary in any forum. ~

Yes, but added to her empty neener-neerer style it only succeeds in making her look petty and foolish. I’d rather be a bitch than an ass.

Tell her, Nora! I like the way you think.

You guys are the ones who think they know everything.  Find out the truth on your own.

Ummm. . .  That sort of is what happened.  I mean, I’ve only read a page and a half of Cassie Edward’s work, and half of it turned out to be an extended transcription from Land of the Spotted Eagle by Luther Standing Bear.  That’s truth, I found it on my own, after about fifteen minutes work.  It probably took Signet several months just to accurately source all of Edwards’ novels.

I guess I’m not reading these comments with the same mindset you are, SAM.  I don’t see celebration over an author’s publishing base being reduced, I see satisfaction that a publisher, after they performed their own research, acted on the results of that research.

SAM, imagine at your work putting in hours of your own research and creativity to find a unique way to perform your job to the best of your ability.  Then, one of your coworkers that happened to see your work swoops in and uses the unique way you devised, that you worked so hard to create, in their own work, exactly as you created it, and presents it as their own creativity and accomplishment, to take credit for what you actually did.  Wouldn’t you be steamed?  Would you just expect a friend who found out about this injustice to you to let it slide, or to stand up for you?  This is no different.  There are some of the passages marked as plagiarism that I think fall into a gray area, but many, many more that are obviously lifted directly from their source.  Ms. Edwards took the hard work of other authors and sold them as her own.  Essentially, she took the unique way they devised and took credit for it.  If it happened to you, personally, you would have a very different opinion on it, I think.

And, finally, if you want to be taken seriously, don’t slam other people.  Nora Roberts has been very truthful, very controlled, and very eloquent in stating her views on this matter.  She has stopped many instances where personal attacks by other posters have begun, and returned the focus back on the actions, not on the individual. 

Many authors have stated their viewpoint on this whole affair on this website and many others.  Singling her out and attacking her for stating truth makes you look bad, and pretty much guarantees that no one will take any statement, opinion, or fact that you wish to convey seriously.  You will only be labeled “troll” and ignored.

Just my humble view…
Sherb (returning back to lurkdom)

shot62 heh heh Yeah, that was my shot at making myself understood.

Nora Roberts said ...

I’d rather be a bitch than an ass.

**snort**  Right with you there, Nora!

Now I have to wipe the very nice merlot off the screen…

And SAM, you’ve given m[e] hope. Tell me that they dumped her because they realised her books were racist rubbish? I’d buy you a ferret.
~Arethusa

Oh no!  Don’t do that to the poor little ferret!  LOLOL

*smile*

And well played Nora.  You are a class act.  If you weren’t already my favorite author, you would be now.

I’ll put my hand up and say I was one of the cynical ones too. I didn’t think Signet would do anything and I’m very happy to be proved wrong.

Now, on a related note, I wonder if this means publishers are going to be a little more diligent in the future? I know that trying to ferret out (ha ha) every possible hint of plagiarism from a 100K book is a non-trivial task, but I’m looking at the other side of the coin. There are authors out there who do take the time to add footnotes and references to their books but then lament that they are left out of the final copy. An easy way for publishers to keep themselves (and their authors) in the clear would be to make sure that, from now on, such references are kept IN the books. I wonder if any of the publishers has taken that extra step and seen this as something they can, and should, do…?

Seriously, Nora, I wanna be like you when I grow up. Well done!

As for SAM, I think she should be working on salvaging her career (or the career of her idol) rather than making things worse. Trolling and name-calling is just childish and petty.

(This is a bit long…)

SAM, I’ve pondered for an hour or two about whether I’d respond to your comments or not, but I decided that I wanted to explain to you, and any other Edwards fans reading, why I described myself as ‘outraged’ and therefore why I am satisfied with Signet’s decision. This is my opinion and my perspective, and may not reflect the opinions of others here.

I don’t know Ms Edwards. I picture her in my mind as a naïve woman who works hard for her readers, who believes she’s doing the right thing for a culture she loves, but who lives and writes in a kind of fantasy world that revels in happy pictures and ignores anything that challenges that fantasy. It’s the only way I can make any sense of this; if I had to write her as a character in a novel, that’s how I’d have to do it.

So, why was I angry, and why am I satisfied now by Signet’s response? Because we all have to be held accountable for our actions. An author who sells manuscripts to publishers, who creates a ‘brand’ that relies heavily on the depiction of a culture, and on ‘meticulous’ research about that culture, who earns millions of dollars from sales of her books - any author who does that has a responsibility to their readers, the industry, the culture they are depicting, and the authors of the research they are using.

I don’t hate Edwards or wish her ill; but, based on the evidence of the extent of the plagiarism, I do hold Edwards accountable for her naïveté, and for failing to educate herself enough about appropriate research and writing methods, and therefore failing as an author to act ethically and professionally.

I also hold her publishers at least in part responsible. Signet’s initial response came across to me as ‘they’re only romance books, so who cares?’ I wondered at the time what their response might have been if Edwards wrote crime novels, instead of romance. I wondered whether the editing process might have picked up the significant inconsistencies in writing style between Edwards’ own words and the plagiarised passages, if the publishers had been more concerned with quality than with sales.

Signet have now acted ethically, after due process in which I presume the author had opportunity to present her case. I am not gleeful, or celebrating, or joyous about that, but I am satisfied with that outcome.

If Sam is the Samantha who was so distraught when the (ahem) alleged plagiarism was discovered, then I do sympathize with you.  Finding out that people we admire have feet of clay (sometimes up to their knees) is hard. 

But looking at it in an adult way, Ms. Edwards also publishes with 2 other companies that appear not to give a flying frit about “borrowing.”  So her books will still be available.  Maybe after this, she’ll even, I dunno, paraphrase her research.  Everybody is human.  Everybody makes mistakes.  Not learning from your mistakes is unforgivable.  So hopefully Cassie will learn from hers.

As for your mistakes, attacking Nora Roberts is, trust me on this, always a mistake.

Nora,

I have the perfect t-shirt for you! I picked it up one day a few years ago at the local mall and swore I would wear it to work some day. (I’m a supervisor for a grocery chain for both deli’s and bakeries.) It says:

I am not a bitch. I’m The Bitch or Ms. Bitch to you!

Dude, go off to the in-laws for dinner and even more crap flies?

SAM of the all caps, wow.  Look, it’s been spelled out both eloquently and bluntly, in words large and small and still, you don’t seem to get it.

The material is there for the perusing.  There is more than enough evidence to support the notion that Ms. Edwards took words that were not her own and passed them off as her own, thus violating not only a basic tenet of most publishing contracts, but the trust between author and reader.  More than one respected news source has treated this situation with due seriousness as has at least one of the publishers that sold Ms. Edwards’ work.  That’s more than enough “proof” for me than someone with unsubstantiated claims of knowing “the truth.”

If you don’t give a rat’s patoot about having your trust violated, then that’s your prerogative, but do not presume to tell me that I have to buy into that crap.  I work too hard at what I do to take that trust, either as a reader or a writer lightly.

Okay, sorry bitches, probably unnecessary ranting, but I had to get that off my chest.

Count me among those who are genuinely pleased and impressed by the professionalism demonstrated by Signet in this mess. I’m really glad they reviewed the material, etc.

And I’m not remotely gleeful that Edwards’s decades of plagiarism (not to mention her blatant-but-apparently-well-intentioned racism) have actually had real-world consequences. Nope. Not gleeful at all. Not even a tiny, tiny, tiny bit. There’s no little voice snickering the back of my head. (And if I WERE gleeful—which I’m not, of course—I would still feel a *little* bad for Edwards’s fans and for Edwards herself, if she really didn’t know that what she was doing was wrong, and then I would feel bad for feeling gleeful.)

As for the other issue here? La Nora PWNS, as usual. :D

I too am glad that Signet (against my expectations) has done the right thing.  Although the Christian Science Monitor piece says she still has a two-book contract.

Before you people go off on the word “Savage,” remember it’s my mother’s maiden name.

The moles and I are now going down to the local tavern to buy drinks for every black-footed ferret in the joint.  And if we have any money left, we’re going to buy Nora her own wolverine.

(yes, I have gone through the archives; is it wrong to stalk a website?)

If it’s wrong, I don’t wanna be right :)

And let me throw my pennies in with the “satisfied” group. Signet’s statement was clear, polite, and non-accusatory.  Such a nice change from the petulance echoing through many PR offices these days.

I don’t really need to weigh in on the whole SAM comment, but I feel I must or I might combust…

I started reading this thread this morning and added my 2 cents - I came back this evening to finish the thread and I read Nora Roberts “is the biggest bitch in the industry.”  I gasped out loud and my husband asked what I was reading so I read it to him.  “Wow,” he said.  Wow sort of covers it.  The wow, Nora, is how you handled it.  To be singled out in this mess, yet again, and to have such class - not blowin’ smoke - just sayin’....you are lovely.

Peace.

For the curious, I know of at least one bookstore that pulled Edwards’ novels off the shelf and returned them– a friend of mine was the one who got to rip them in half so they couldn’t legally be sold.

SAM said…

What I know and who I am is none of your business.  I’m just saying that you don’t know what really happened.  Just because the AP printed something doesn’t mean it’s 100% true.

Well on one level I almost admire Sarah Ann Mitchell for her loyalty.  Blind and misplaced and most likely codependent it may be, but still… it’s loyalty.

However, her acting out in denial of an avalanche of evidence is just childish, pitiful and sad.  Mostly sad. I certainly don’t believe everything I read in the AP or any other news agency. Heck, I don’t believe MOST things I read in the media,  but in this case I don’t need to.

I’m not celebrating CE’s downfall. I am sad it ever happened at all. But I guess I do take satisfaction that there is a certain element of justice taking place.  It may not be enough or it may be too much, depending on your POV. But at least there is some element of ‘making it right’ taking place. Whether it was done out of laziness,  ignorance or blatant disregard for honest writing, what CE did was flat-out wrong. No excuses. There need to be consequences for her actions. 

While I have never been an admirer of CE’s work, obviously she’s had a loyal following of readers for all these years. They have a right to be disappointed.  However, it was Cassie Edwards herself who disappointed them—not the SBs or any of the scores of others who were equally outraged by CE’s outright plagiarism.  SAM and her pals would probably get a more sympathetic response if they acknowledged that there were flagrant wrongs committed.  SAM could still be disappointed that loyalty and trust had been violated, and yet love Cassie anyway. She and her pals are victims in this too.  But instead, she’d rather act out.  I have no intention of wasting my energy trying to reason with someone who can’t/won’t get it.  I’ll just pity her and move on.

I used to work in a crime lab.  Some 15+ years after it took place, I still remember what one woman said after her gang banger grandson had been gunned down outside his high school in a fight with a rival drug dealer.  He had been leader of a particularly violent gang of drug runners, robbers and car-jackers who often randomly assaulted people on the street just for sport. He led a short but quite nasty life.  This obviously grieving woman showed great dignity when facing a very intrusive pack of media who essentially said he deserved what he got.  She said,  “I know he wasn’t a good boy, but he was a good grandson.”  It acknowledged her pain and love for her grandson without discounting the crimes that had been committed, or the persons he had harmed. She didn’t blame others for her grandson’s actions either. She accepted him for what he was to her, and loved him in spite of his vile behavior.

Sarah Ann, you might consider how you respond in the future.  Start by saying something like, “I know Cassie Edwards was wrong in what she did. But I loved those books, and I still love her.”  You’re allowed. It comes across much better than name-calling and tantrums and ignorant, baseless threats.

Justice is necessary, but not always pleasant. There are no winners here, and no one is celebrating CE’s downfall.  It’s tragic that so many people were harmed by her actions.  Signet did the right thing, surprisingly enough. Good on them. 

Diane

In my own small way, I “celebrated” this news by pointing out to the owner of the little UBS in my neighborhood about “Savage-gate”, after noticing a number of her “works” on the shelf.

While I continued to browse, he googled at his computer and I could hear him alternately guffawing & growling in indignation/disbelief. By the time I got to the counter to pay for my books, he had a box of her books by the front door, heading for the trash! He also had a few succinct words for authors who plagarize another’s work, and said that he would be refusing any of her books in the future.

Bitches RULE! ;p

— Bonz

“data48” ... goes to show you can’t fight the data!

C’mon people, SAM’s obviously a troll. There’s only two ways to deal with a troll: ignore them, or make fun of them. But for Crom’s sake, don’t treat them seriously! That’s like feeding spinach to Popeye.

SAM’s list of trollsign is impressive in its triteness:

Mrs. Edwards and Signet going their seperate ways has nothing to do with what you did so you can stop gloating!
Unless you know the exact story you should keep your mouths shut.  If you post the wrong thing you will be opening yourself up to one heck of a slander lawsuit.

Whining? Check.
Accusations of ignorance? Check.
Threats of lawsuit? Check.

As I said, you don’t know what happened.  It had nothing to do with what these people did.  You only know what the AP printed, not the whole story.  LMAO
By celebrating you are making asses out of yourselves.  LMAO

Repeated accusations of ignorance? Check.
Implication that troll knows something secret, but won’t say what it is? Check.
Utterly ludicrous accusations that opponents look foolish? Check.

What I know and who I am is none of your business….
You guys are the ones who think they know everything….I thought just maybe you had matured a little.  I guess not.

Repeated “I have a secret” blustering? Check.
“You’re so immature!” third-grade-girl-level namecalling? Check.

I have much more important things to do than to argue with a bunch of people who have to go around hurting others just so they can feel good about themselves.

And the big winnah! “I’m gonna take my toys and go away!” Sadly, they never really do, but it’s the big clue that they’re getting really upset that everyone thinks they’re an idiot.

SAM, love, if you’re going to be a troll, at least be an entertaining and original troll. This is real noob-quality stuff.

Sarah Ann, you might consider how you respond in the future.  Start by saying something like, “I know Cassie Edwards was wrong in what she did. But I loved those books, and I still love her.” You’re allowed. It comes across much better than name-calling and tantrums and ignorant, baseless threats.

Amen. I rarely comment on blogs because I’ve already been sent to troll land (as if I care a rat’s…), but when SAM called Nora a bitch in utter nastiness, “them’s fightin’ words,” in my opinon.

Pardon my tantrum after 3 tunis.

It’s funny how her stupidity ruined her writing career.  If it had been one book, she could maybe have hidden for a little while, but a novelist with 100 books cannot hide long enough to try to rejuvenate that writing career.

Ferrets, schmerrets, I’m drinking champagne (or something close to it) tonight.

No, I’m not Mrs. Edwards.  I don’t know her but I do read her books and I enjoy them.

I’ve been coming to this site for the past several years.  There’s just never been anything I wanted to reply to until this.

I’m sorry if you don’t like my opinion but I have as much right to state it as anyone else.  At least I don’t set out to ruin someone’s career and then gloat about it.

Yes, you found information, investigated it, and provided all the information on your website, the AP, and everywhere else. 

The proper thing to have done was to first bring it to the attention of the publisher and Mrs. Edwards and allowed them to make a statement to you about the allegations.

You didn’t give Signet a chance to find out what was going on before the press was all over it.  Could you imagine what it was like for Mrs. Edwards when she answered the phone and was suddenly being questioned by the AP and not even know what was going on?

As for saying how I feel about Ms. Roberts…I’m not apologizing.  I said how I feel.  She’s had her nose in this since day one.  I didn’t see any other authors involving themselves or making statements to the AP.

The proper thing would have been for Ms. Roberts to have said, “No Comment”. 

Did anyone attend Bertrice Small’s workshop in Pittsburgh?   

Did she bring up Mrs. Edwards’ name? 

No, she didn’t.  She’s wouldn’t stoop so low as to attack a fellow author or anyone else publicly.

This is all I have to say on this matter.  It’s a waste of time. 

If there is one person here who has never in your entire life done anything wrong I’ll be happy to hand you the first stone to cast.

The proper thing to have done was to first bring it to the attention of the publisher and Mrs. Edwards and allowed them to make a statement to you about the allegations.

No. The books are all over the damned continent. Why should we allow the publisher and author to keep all that blatant plagiarism hush-hush? Readers have a right to know they’ve been swindled, and the press gets the word out most efficiently. If Ms. Edwards didn’t want people asking her about plagiarism, then she shouldn’t have plagiarized.

As for saying how I feel about Ms. Roberts…I’m not apologizing.  I said how I feel.  She’s had her nose in this since day one.

And I applaud her resoundingly for it.

The proper thing to have done was to first bring it to the attention of the publisher and Mrs. Edwards and allowed them to make a statement to you about the allegations.

SAM, I don’t agree with you on this, and I’ll tell you my reasons why. As soon as an author publishes a book, its contents are out there for public review, critique, discussion and debate. That’s what publication is about. It’s not sharing a book with friends, it’s putting your work out in the public, to let it stand (or fall) on the quality of the writing and story-telling, and its consequent appeal to the book-buying public. The moment an author signs off on the final proofs, they should be accepting responsibility for their work, and to be prepared for all the comments, positive and negative, that members of the industry, the media, and the reading public might make about that book. If an author makes claims about a book, then they establish an implicit contract of trust with the reader and the reading public, and they should be able to demonstrate the soundness of those claims.

The plagiarism issues identified in Mrs Edwards’ books were not a minor matter, or an isolated matter. It’s not a case of a small mistake or error of fact. Her actions have had a significant negative impact on herself, her readers, her publishers, and the broader romance genre. In publishing her books, Mrs Edwards has made her actions public, and therefore open to public scrutiny and discussion.

Publishing is a tough and a scary world for authors. I’m currently doing the final read-through on the proofs of my first novel. When I send that off tomorrow, I have to accept responsibility for my actions and my decisions as an author. Once my work is published, my readers and the reading community have a right to comment on the book, discuss, debate, criticize, or praise it, to ask questions, and to do it publicly. Mrs Edwards’ readers and the reading public have the same rights with regard to her books.

There’s only two ways to deal with a troll: ignore them, or make fun of them. But for Crom’s sake, don’t treat them seriously!

—E, while in some cases I’d agree with you, I figure that a) this is a serious issue and b) whatever we might think, as well as SAM there are people who are probably lurking here who genuinely don’t understand why we hold these views, and are feeling hurt by them.

Yeah, yeah, I know I’m a softy. I am a middle (or was that muddle?) child, and had to be the peacemaker. So, sometimes I choose to engage politely to an extent with a dissenting view.

However, I need to go now and finish the final read-through of the proofs, and I may reward myself afterwards with a Nora Roberts movie, so I probably won’t make any more comments on this one. :-)

I, for one, have no reservations about snarking Cassie Edwards right into the Savage Ground.  I found the plots of her books ridiculous and her approach to Native Americans insulting, which was enough reason for me to laugh myself sick at the SB commentary on her works.  The plagiarism, however, meant that the gloves are off. 

If she is, as her fans claim, an adult in her right mind, she has no excuse for copying other peoples’ work.  It was unprofessional and unethical and I think she deserves every bit of snark she gets.  She made money for years stealing other peoples’ work and I’m scratching my head as to why her fans are still trying to argue that this issue should have been swept under the carpet.

“Did she bring up Mrs. Edwards’ name? 

No, she didn’t.  She’s wouldn’t stoop so low as to attack a fellow author or anyone else publicly. “

She didn’t need to emphasize the obvious. What do you think provided the impetus and illustrated the necessity for a workshop on the subject of plagiarism?

Gosh, my nose is getting a lot of play.

I don’t say ‘no comment’ when I have one. I have very strong opinions on plagiarism. I imagine the media contacted me because I’ve been a victim of plagiarism. As it appears you see condemning plagiarism as an attack on Edwards I must assume you condone plagiarism. So we have very different views on what’s ‘proper’.

Signet took the proper steps, and the time required, to assess the situation.

Now we move to the biblical portion of the program with the old cast the first stone maneuver.

I have never plagiarized, so I’ll gather my own stones, thanks, and toss them at the act and issue of plagiarism enthusiastically. I’ve got a pretty good arm.

“I’m sorry if you don’t like my opinion but I have as much right to state it as anyone else. “
And so does Nora Roberts have the right to state her opinion, particularly on a subject with which she has had personal and painful knowledge.
Yet you, SAM,  hypocritically claim she shouldn’t comment?
Bah.

Nora, correct me if I’m wrong here, but one of the most telling things in this whole situation is the fact that Signet opted to restore Edwards’ rights to all the books they’ve published, back to her.

Am I wrong in thinking that this is virtually unheard of?  At least, on such a large scale?

~Am I wrong in thinking that this is virtually unheard of~

It’s not something I’ve heard of before either. Undoubtedly doing so costs Signet considerable in potential sales.

For me, as a reader, and as a writer under other imprints in the Penguin/Putnam Group, it illustrates the publisher put ethics ahead of profit.

And from the wording of the press release, it strikes me they did so as professionally and as cleanly as possible.

Big points for Signet.

I didn’t see any other authors involving themselves or making statements to the AP.

That’s only because the AP went for an author who has PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with plagiarism and who their readers would recognize.  In many ways, Nora Roberts has become an expert on plagiarism because of her experiences.  She’s been stolen from, or didn’t you know that?  If you can’t see why the media would go to her for a quote and if you can’t understand why she has the balls to stand up against plagiarism, then you are even more clueless than your comments make you out to be.

But rest assured, SAM, had they called me, my statements would have been just as strong.  Call me a bitch, too, if you want to (please! please!) but what Cassie Edwards did was wrong and I have no compunction in saying so publicly and privately and to anyone who will listen.

The SmartBitches had NO requirement to handle this matter privately.  They are bloggers.  They are an outlet for news in this industry.  It’s like telling 20/20 that they should confront those child predators privately instead of setting up their cameras for an undercover sting.

You just want it all private so it could be swept under the rug.

I’m sure Mrs. Edwards was very shocked when she was confronted on the phone about the allegations.  People who have been caught after years of doing something wrong often are.  I have sympathy, and would have even had forgiveness, had she apologized and tried to make restitution.  But she didn’t.  She tried to justify her actions and as a writer, she should know better.

The only good thing is that out of this mess, perhaps many writers now DO know better.

Count me among the cynical who thought that this whole issue was going to be swept under the rug. I recant! Signet has earned my respect for being thorough, considerate and ethical in this matter of plagiarism. Kudos to them and HUGE kudos to the SBs for breaking the story in the first place.

Barb, Signet reverting all the rights to Ms. Edwards’s books made me blink several times, too. That pretty much translates to “We don’t want to have anything to do with this mess for one second longer.”

Though I should observe that the wording in the article is just vague enough that it might mean something different. Cassie Edwards novels will no longer be published with Signet Books. All rights to Ms. Edwards’ previously published Signet books have reverted to the author. might translate as “We’re not going to buy any new books from her, and her older books with us had already reverted.”

I realize Ms. Edwards has a strong fan base, but it’s entirely possible that many of her books more than a few years old are already OP, available only as used books. (This is no slam on Ms. Edwards; that’s the usual fate for most authors’ books.)

Signet has not said they will pulp their current stock of books. The real answer will come in a year or so: at that time, search for any of the Signet-published books being available as “new” for full cover price. If Signet is true to their word, the books will not be available from them. It’s almost impossible they would keep stock in the warehouse for a year without reprinting.

In the meanwhile, it wouldn’t hurt for the Bitchery to reassure Signet that they made the right decision. If you wrote them a letter complaining about the plagiarism, write them another applauding their decision, and emphasize you will enjoy buying more Signet titles. Consumer action can be a powerful stick; it should also work as a carrot.

~and her older books with us had already reverted.” ~

I don’t believe this is the case, and there was a new book from Signet due out this summer. Which according to the Signet statement will not now be published by them. I believe the backlist from Signet was still in print, so the rights would not have already reverted before this decision.

This is a hefty hit in the profit margin for Signet. I would also speculate that the review of the books they’d published or plan to publish cost them considerable expense.

Ethics and professionalism before profit. That says a lot to me.

The proper thing would have been for Ms. Roberts to have said, “No Comment”.

Proper? Listen to your own words, SAM, and abide by them.

If there is one person here who has never in your entire life done anything wrong I’ll be happy to hand you the first stone to cast.

Impossible. Only those people who have never “done anything wrong” have stones to offer.
Obviously I’m still a tad ticked by this person’s comments. I mean no disrespect to the rest of you or to this blog. And, I know Nora is very capable of defending herself w/o my help. So…I’ll slither back to troll territory now—until SAM beckons again.

Sigh. Keep the plagiarism news hush hush? Heck, I wish Cassie Edwards had kept all her books hush hush. Don’t fret, SAM. If you still need mixed first nation + soothing white woman romance there’s always Nan Ryan.

Yeah, I’m thinking along the lines that Nora is thinking. After a certain point, big authors don’t exactly go “out of print”. Not in the way that less-known authors do. Backlists are dipped into by newfound fans. Whole series get a “reissue” treatment. (I’m sorry if I can’t explain my theory properly, I’ve never been in that position so I’m “guestimating”.

When Signet reverted the rights back to Ms. Edwards, I’m assuming that severed all ties involving their right to continue to sell her books. Meaning the inclusion of all those currently on the shelves or in warehouses.

Some kind of monetary deal had to have been worked out here.  Someone has to eat the cost of all those returns. Unless, of course, the deal involved leaving the current stock on the shelves, and dealing with the warehouse stock as a separate issue.

Dunno.

For me, as a reader, and as a writer under other imprints in the Penguin/Putnam Group, it illustrates the publisher put ethics ahead of profit.

Yep, ditto on both points.

The thing that’s striking me with respect to the Cassie Edwards fan(s) is that they’re not so much upset that she plagiarized, since indeed, in their minds, she didn’t do anything wrong.  They’re far more upset she got busted.

Talk about a skewed sense of priorities and ethics.

Barb, I’ve been thinking and wondering the same thing. You verbalized it beautifully.
Amongst her fans, there seems to be the mindset that this whole sad ordeal should just be swept under the rug and forgotten. Nobody seems upset about the plagiarism, and CE herself doesn’t seem willing to apologize.
And as for La Nora speaking up, who can forget what she’s been through? I definitely admire her for doing so when asked, and with such class. (I’m not kissing up, you’ve gotta appreciate the way the lady stays so cool and wonderfully spoken no matter what’s tossed at her!)

Ethics and professionalism before profit. That says a lot to me.

And it’s refreshing when it seems every time you turn around some crooked person is getting away with something, and no one cares because they’re making money from it.

I’ve already sent out my letter of thanks, and if I could I’d send a box of cookies with it.

There’s no need to typecast Mrs. Edwards’ fans.  My opinion is my own and I do not speak for anyone except for myself.

Mrs. Edwards does have a lot of loyal fans who will stand behind her and continue reading her books.  There is an official fan club with hundreds of members.  I’m sure these fans will each make their own decisions about the situation.

Let me ask each of you this question…How many of you did book reports and essays in High School?  How many of you never used complete sentences or paragraphs from your research?

I’ll be honest and admit that I did.  I quoted statistics, information, etc., and used them in my reports.  Is that stealing?  If it is then 90% of all high school students have turned in reports with stolen work.

I always thought plagiarism was when someone takes another person’s story, poem, book, etc., changes it, and claims it as their own.  I honestly didn’t know that using sentences and even a paragraph is considered plagiarism.  But then again, I’m not an author, writer, editor, or publisher.

Isn’t it possible that Mrs. Edwards actually did not realize using parts of her research without changing the words was plagiarism? 

I have seen authors state that their publishers do not put a credit page even if the author includes it with their manuscripts.  Is that the author’s fault/wrong doings or does that fall on the publisher?

Ms. Roberts, as angry as I am at the way you helped the people who own this site I’ve decided to apologize for the name calling.  Whether you accept the apology or not is your decision.

I remember years ago a different Nora Roberts.  A very sweet lady who I exchanged emails with. 

You are all entitled to your opinions, but so am I.  I believe everyone deserves a second chance as well as forgivness. 

As for Mrs. Edwards not making a statement…I wouldn’t either.  Too many people in the press like to twist people’s words and misquote them to make their articles more interesting.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha…....

Couldn’t happen to a more deserving collage creator.

What? She doesn’t write her books, she just steals from others’ and forms them into a collage with a few randomly sprinkled words (like “savage”).

Now, maybe Signet can publish someone who’s actually an author, someone who does original work.

Not to beat the long-dead horse, but an author cannot take material wholesale from another source, reproduce it without change, and call it their own.  This is the problem that Ms. Edwards seems to have trouble grasping.

From the CS Monitor article on Paul Tolmé, quoting Ms. Edwards:

The author, who previously has declined comment to the media, agreed to a telephone interview from her Mattoon, Ill., home. Still distraught by allegations in published reports, Edwards wanted to tell her side. “When I write these Indian novels, I research to try to get everything authentic for the reader, every detail,” she says. “I would never purposely lie or cheat. That’s not the way I was raised. I want it all to be true. What I take from books are merely descriptions. The research is research. I don’t want to put in things that are just made up.”

Okay, so props to her for wanting to get the research right, however, there is a vast difference between lifting the material wholesale and making stuff up out of whole cloth and it’s that middle ground that an author of fiction has to learn to navigate.  You take the facts and you weave them into original narrative, in a manner which is seamless and flows in your own style.  The facts are the facts.  It’s the manner in which they’re conveyed that bear the author’s own distinctive style.

By her own admission, she did not do this.  She took sentences that other people crafted and put them in, almost word for word.  She thinks that just because they’re descriptions, they don’t count?  How incredibly insulting to the people who put time and hours of work into crafting their research.

How many of you did book reports and essays in High School?  How many of you never used complete sentences or paragraphs from your research?

Um… never.  Or at the very least, not without citing and quotations and all the stuff I was taught went along with writing an essay or book report or any kind of academic paper.  All of which are incredibly different from writing a piece of original fiction.

Yes, you are certainly entitled to your own opinion.
We all are.
And so is Signet.
Yes, the fans can make their own decisions. They can decide whether Ms. Edwards was right or wrong in giving them whole chunks of another author’s words. Not a sentence. Not a phrase. Whole paragraphs.
If they - if you - don’t feel cheated, that’s fine. But the rest of us have a right to find Ms. Edwards in the wrong. We are also the reading public. We also have a right.
And hey, thought you had more to do than argue with the likes of us?
Just sayin’.

Let me ask each of you this question…How many of you did book reports and essays in High School?  How many of you never used complete sentences or paragraphs from your research?

I’ll be honest and admit that I did.  I quoted statistics, information, etc., and used them in my reports.  Is that stealing?  If it is then 90% of all high school students have turned in reports with stolen work.

Yes, it is stealing. If you didn’t credit the people who wrote those words, then yes, you are a thief and a plagiarist.

And your excuses boil down to Well, I didn’t know it was wrong (the same defence Ms. Edwards used; surprise, surprise) and Hey, everybody does it.

Those are the rationalizations of a thief. That kind of behaviour is NOT normal, and no, not everybody does it (I sure as hell didn’t; I understood that copying other people’s work was cheating), so don’t expect my forgiveness for the fact that you think it’s okay to steal provided you don’t get caught.

I’ve lost what little respect I had for your opinions. You admit to theft and then expect us to give credence to your arguments regarding intellectual property rights? Outrageous.

Mrs. Edwards does have a lot of loyal fans who will stand behind her and continue reading her books.  There is an official fan club with hundreds of members.  I’m sure these fans will each make their own decisions about the situation.

Then let her take comfort in that.

Let me ask each of you this question…How many of you did book reports and essays in High School?  How many of you never used complete sentences or paragraphs from your research?

You’re grasping at straws, here.  It’s book report.  In which case the source of lifted passages is identified before the act.  Plus, quoting from the book being reported upon is actually expected.

I’ll be honest and admit that I did.  I quoted statistics, information, etc., and used them in my reports.  Is that stealing?  If it is then 90% of all high school students have turned in reports with stolen work.

There’s a world of difference between ‘quoting’ [in which case the source is cited—that’s part of the grade] and claiming passages as your own.  Are you now comparing CE to an ignorant or naive high school student?

I always thought plagiarism was when someone takes another person’s story, poem, book, etc., changes it, and claims it as their own.  I honestly didn’t know that using sentences and even a paragraph is considered plagiarism.

It’s a mistake to project your own naivety onto a multi-published author.

But then again, I’m not an author, writer, editor, or publisher.

But CE is a published author—with a hundred titles to her name.  How can anyone be playing in the game that long and not become exposed to the rules of that game?

Isn’t it possible that Mrs. Edwards actually did not realize using parts of her research without changing the words was plagiarism?

[See previous comment.]

I have seen authors state that their publishers do not put a credit page even if the author includes it with their manuscripts.  Is that the author’s fault/wrong doings or does that fall on the publisher?

That information can easily be made part of an author’s website.

Ms. Roberts, as angry as I am at the way you helped the people who own this site I’ve decided to apologize for the name calling.  Whether you accept the apology or not is your decision.

Um, dur.

I remember years ago a different Nora Roberts.  A very sweet lady who I exchanged emails with.

[note to self: a woman is no longer ‘sweet’ when she stands up for what is right.]

You are all entitled to your opinions, but so am I.

Yep.  We’re all entitled to our opinions,... so long as we don’t dare give them voice, or so long as we don’t presume to disagree with anyone else’s.

I believe everyone deserves a second chance as well as forgivness.

Possibly—but first I require an indication of remorse.

As for Mrs. Edwards not making a statement…

A statement could be the aforementioned indication of remorse.

I wouldn’t either.

[No surprise, there.]

Too many people in the press like to twist people’s words and misquote them to make their articles more interesting.

Oh-hhh, the irony.  You know, if CE had done exactly that she might not have got herself in this pickle.

I’ll be honest and admit that I did.  I quoted statistics, information, etc., and used them in my reports.  Is that stealing?  If it is then 90% of all high school students have turned in reports with stolen work.

This makes it right?  Those papers should have had “please cite your sources” written all over them when they were handed back.  (I know, I know, but honestly—education about plagarism has to begin somewhere.)  And on a side note, it’s not just high school students who do this: it’s college students, as well.  My father, a poli sci professor, is driven nearly insane by this every time he assigns papers…and yes, he marks them up with demands for source material citations and docks their grades. 

Which brings me back to my point: just because it happens doesn’t mean it’s right.  Extend that thought—“lots of people do this, so why is it such a big deal?”—and apply it to other areas of life.  Lots of people commit all sorts of crimes, from speeding to murder.  “A lot of people do it” should not be a justification for breaking the law or violating codes of ethics.  In fact, those laws and codes of ethics exist because people engage in that behavior; if nobody does it, why bother to condemn it?

My favorite high school English teacher once made us write not one but two papers: one of them a manual on how to write a research paper, including long sections on how to proper source citation, and the other one the research paper itself, utilizing those principles.  (Writing the manual was incredibly helpful, too—I kept that thing for years as a reference.)

Let me ask each of you this question…How many of you did book reports and essays in High School?  How many of you never used complete sentences or paragraphs from your research?

Never.  I learned in elementary school that copying word for word SOMEONE ELSE’S work is plagiarism.  It’s not that tricky of a concept.  And playing the ignorant card doesn’t negate the issue, either.

Sam,

Okay, after reading your last post, I had to step away from my computer. I needed time to think in order to make my best attempt at describing why said post bothered me so desparately. (I’ll probably fail, but at the moment I feel very passionate about my opinion.)

Think on what you are asking of the rest of us-that we take Ms. Edwards at face value and that she didn’t know any better.

But what does that really mean? Are you asking us to say that Ms. Edwards has no more savvy than a highschool teenager? That in her over 26 years in this industry dealing with publicists, agents, reviewers, readers, publishers, etc., she has garnered no knowledge whatsoever? That her academic and life knowledge was arrested in her teenage years?

No, I’m sure that is not what you mean, but your defense is asking us to look at her from that perspective. And really I think that is, in an odd way, disrespectful to Ms. Edwards.

A terrific point. The “Didn’t you do this in high school, too”? Whaaa?
As it’s been pointed out, we’re talking high school here - and we were taught it was wrong.
This is professional level.
And, yes, it’s still wrong.
Ms. Edwards has been putting out books for many years, and copying other writers’ works.
Umm ... Who’s in the wrong?
And while I’m at it… Give us 3 good reasons we should brush things under the rug. Good reasons.
On second thought, why don’t you just give up now and save a little face?

~But what does that really mean? Are you asking us to say that Ms. Edwards has no more savvy than a highschool teenager? That in her over 26 years in this industry dealing with publicists, agents, reviewers, readers, publishers, etc., she has garnered no knowledge whatsoever? That her academic and life knowledge was arrested in her teenage years?~

This is how it reads to me, too. And I’d wager pretty much every high schooler out there knows it’s cheating to copy research verbatim.

I can’t believe that anyone who’s had a career in publishing doesn’t know it’s wrong to copy another writer’s words and claim them as her own. I just can’t believe that.

Your apology is pretty back-handed, Sam. Gee sorry for calling you a big bitch, but you used to be a sweet woman. I suppose I was ‘sweet’ when I didn’t disagree with you, or take a stand on something that’s extremely important to me—and apparently not at all important to you. 

It would be a lot easier to accept an apology without the qualifications.

Ooh, and Jenns, don’t forget the “There’s no need to typecast Mrs. Edwards’ fans.  My opinion is my own and I do not speak for anyone except for myself.”

Which… isn’t that exactly what she was doing when she levied the blanket accusation of “gloating” when all any of us did was state an opinion?

Hmmm…

You know SAM, what’s right is right and what’s wrong is wrong.  Ms Edwards crossed the line and for that she needs to be held accountable.  In the grand scheme of things, whether it be writers or readers, zoo keepers, day care providers or race car drivers (yes, wild examples here), people know down deep what they are doing is either right or wrong.  If they choose to ignore the little voice that says “This is wrong” okay, so be it.  But remember life has a way of catching up with you.  And what goes around comes around in the end.  And life has now caught up with her.  So put on your big girl panties and accept the responsiblity of your actions!

As someone currently in high school, turning in a report with examples of plagiarism—even if it’s just a lifted sentence you didn’t bother changing—is an automatic F on the project and, if it’s an extreme enough example, for the whole class, no matter what class it is. I believe other punishments include detention and suspension, depending on the severity of the problem. (I know one student who turned in the cliff notes as a report… He didn’t get away with it.)

Plagiarism is never alright. No, not even in high school.

While there probably are an unfortunate number of situations where plagiarism occurs, I doubt it’s 90%, and “everyone’s doing it!” isn’t going to win a moral argument. On top of that, when it gets caught, you have to pay the price for it.

Hmmm. That seems like an oddly familiar situation…

Let me ask each of you this question…How many of you did book reports and essays in High School?  How many of you never used complete sentences or paragraphs from your research?

I’ll be honest and admit that I did.  I quoted statistics, information, etc., and used them in my reports.  Is that stealing?  If it is then 90% of all high school students have turned in reports with stolen work.

I always thought plagiarism was when someone takes another person’s story, poem, book, etc., changes it, and claims it as their own.  I honestly didn’t know that using sentences and even a paragraph is considered plagiarism.  But then again, I’m not an author, writer, editor, or publisher.

Ah, hell, she’s back…
I agree with all other posters, SAM. Cheating is—for a simpler word—bad, and plagiarism should be beneath any author. Let’s get down to basics:  high school students are still in the learning process, and they aren’t making a living off their thievery!

What part of these posts don’t you understand? Is it that difficult to grasp how this case affects ALL authors and writers?

SAM, facts and statistics cannot be plagiarized, but in most cases you must still cite where you got those facts and statistics from so that you can show you didn’t make them up.  The way someone writes something—the expression—can be plagiarized.  What Cassie Edwards did was not merely a matter of lifting a phrase here or there from a research book.  She took entire passages from multiple sources and offered them as her own within the context of a fictional work.  Many other sources and many of her own books were involved.

It is very, very difficult for me to believe that in a career spanning some thirty years or so that any professional writer would not know that this is wrong, and in some cases, a violation of copyright law (which could cost her and her publisher significantly).  But even if she didn’t know—let’s for a moment speculate that—she offered absolutely no apology or admission of wrongdoing.  Now you may not think she owed that to her readers, but don’t you think she owed that basic respect to those scholars and authors whose work appeared in her books, fully transcribed, without any attribution?  I do, on both counts. 

However, my appreciation for Signet/Penguin actually has nothing to do with the end of Cassie Edwards’s career; it could have been UnknownAuthorZ whose contract was severed and my reaction would be the same.  I am merely grateful that a publisher cared more about professional and intellectual ethics than profit.  The fact that they did so with an author who was a big earner for them is, to me, at least, more impressive, but again, I see it as about what Penguin did far, far more than about what Edwards did.

Isn’t it possible that Mrs. Edwards actually did not realize using parts of her research without changing the words was plagiarism?

Sam, the choices, so far are that CE:
A) Deliberately stole the work of other authors
or
b) ramained somehow completely ignorant of the definition of plagiasm after 100 published works and umpteen decades in the business.

Either way, not someone Signet should be doing business with.

If she knew, then she got caught and should take her lumps.
If she was that ignorant, then she can try to find another publisher, spew forth another four Savage (Insert noun here) opuses per annum and prove she can produce descriptive passages without copying like a lazy high schooler doing a book report.

I personally, am curious to see which publishing house will pick up her new series:
Stolen Thunder
Lifted Passages
Lifted Skirts
Purloined Loincloths
Snatched Snatches
with her new heroine
Miss Appro Priated

I’ll add I don’t know how I ‘helped’ the SBs in this matter. Nor why anyone should be angry with them for exposing plagiarism, and plagiarism on such a large scale.

Sam, you say you believe in second chances and forgiveness. I think most reasonable people do. Edwards has not, thus far, acknowledged what she did, nor asked to be forgiven.

Before forgiveness, comes acknowledgement of the wrong and an apology for it.

In your very first post on this thread you told everyone to keep their mouths shut. Further on, you claimed everyone here was gloating, and that you knew more than anyone here. According to you we were all making asses out of ourselves. You called me a bitch, and said I acted improperly. That the SBs acted improperly.

Then you compare what Edwards did with high schoolers copying passages in a book report. THEN talk of forgiveness and second chances—though as I said Edwards hasn’t acknowledged what she did or asked for forgiveness.

You’ve been rude, nasty, dismissive and insulting.

Why would you think anyone here would find anything you said in this context reasonable or valid?

HA HA! When you’re forced to compare your adult defendant with 10 year old children take that moment to step away from the computer and throw up your hands in defeat.

Let me ask each of you this question…How many of you did book reports and essays in High School?  How many of you never used complete sentences or paragraphs from your research?

If I used them, they were inside these things: “” and the source wis identified with a proper footnote.

I’ll be honest and admit that I did.  I quoted statistics, information, etc., and used them in my reports.  Is that stealing?  If it is then 90% of all high school students have turned in reports with stolen work.

Using FACTS is never plagiarism, because facts cannot be copyrighted. But using the way the other guy wrote about those facts, taking their words that explain the facts and using them as if they had com from your imagination, is more often than not plagiarism.

I always thought plagiarism was when someone takes another person’s story, poem, book, etc., changes it, and claims it as their own.  I honestly didn’t know that using sentences and even a paragraph is considered plagiarism.

CassieEdwards lifted entire pages of descriptive text from other authors - both living and dead, from books in the public domain and still under copyright - rewrote them only to the extent that what was prose was turned into dialog (what is referred to as “filing off the seriual numbers”) and resold those words as her own.

Isn’t it possible that Mrs. Edwards actually did not realize using parts of her research without changing the words was plagiarism?

Could someone who either was or wanted to be an English teacher, and who has been publishing dozens of books over a couple of decades remain ignorant of what constitutes plagiarism? 

Plagiarism is a frequent topic in the publishing press and the popular press: the Harry Potter “muggles” case, the Harvard whiz-kid whose books were found ot have too-strong similarities with other chick-lit books ... it’s hard to remain ignorant. What you can do is go into denial.

First of all, I have to say that Dreams has given me hope for high schools everywhere! I love to see plagiarism being taken seriously at the high school level. Saves me a lot of trouble when they come to me in college.

I can only conclude that SAM just does not get it. Perhaps she imagines the whole world is like a really bad high school, and no one cares if you “borrow” something or copy off of someone else’s paper. Fortunately, most of us have some standards of ethics…as a non-fiction writer, I work my ass off to make sure that my writing is my own, and that the “facts” I pour into my writing are described in a well-written manner. If I found someone stealing my work in their paper or their novel, I’d be pissed, and I probably would not be as gracious as our Mr. Tolme was.

I can’t even be coherent on this issue. All I really have to say is that this scandal is going to make a hell of teaching tool when I talk about plagiarism in my classes next fall.

Snarkhunter: I can only hope I get college professors like you, then.

It might just be my school district, but the introduction to bibliographies and citing resources starts in the sixth grade, or possibly earlier. After that point, there’s no excuse to ‘not know’ what’s acceptable. I do know that it could stand to use a bit more emphasis even in my district, and probably a lot more in others.

Of course, I cite resources in fanfiction…

Don’t care about CE. I’m just happy Penguin did the right thing. They decided to lose their profits. It sent a message that plagiarism is wrong, no matter who does it.

Major kudos to a corporation that does the right thing. In this day and age, it’s a damn rare thing.

Another one for SAM—High school plagerism?  Never did it.  NEVER.  And not because my school told us over and over again what it was, and not because if I did it I could have been suspended or even expelled for a first offense (my school rocked and I’d take four more years if I could!), but because I intuitively knew that putting my name on something claims it as my own work, and I was taught not to lie. 

At the university I go to, I run into a lot of people (usually not in my major, literature) who don’t understand plagerism.  I can only conclude that their teachers either were not that good, didn’t have their priorities straight, or that the consequences for plagerism weren’t severe enough to illustrate the gravity of the crime. 

At my university, the number one excuse behind “I didn’t know,” is “I knew it was wrong, but the paper was due in a few hours and I didn’t have it done.  I panicked.”  This is what happens when someone is lazy and doesn’t just accept the bad grade as a concequence for their own bad behavior.  My school holds the student responsible for anything he or she puts his or her name on. All cases of plagerism are sent to a review board.  If a student is lucky, he’s put on acedemic probation and has to attend a seminar where he learns the rules.  If the board decides the case is severe enough, the student is expelled.  If you think that’s too severe, then you dont understand how serious a crime plagerism is.

SO, SAM, school is in session.  Here is everything your (by all accounts severly deficient high school) should have told you about plagerism.

Generic Example:  John Smith writes a book about dogs, in which he says:  “Dogs are loyal animals.  They love to play fetch, chew on bones, and dig holes.” 

(I know this is something everyone knows, but just imagine its actual unique information on a lesser known animal, such as a black footed ferret.)

Now, if you were to write a book report about John Smith’s book, quoting his book is fine, because the nature of the book report is to report its contents and what you learned and all that, and the author of the orrigional book is obviously credited when you say something along the lines of “My book report is on The Life of Dogs by John Smith”.

HOWEVER, if you were to write an acedemic paper that was not a book report, and wanted to include stuff you learned from John Smith, there are a number of ways to legally go about this. 

You can quote him verbatim, using quotation marks and site him with either footnotes, end notes, or directly in the paper saying something like, “As John Smith notes in his book, (quote)”. 

Or you can paraphrase the information from his book.  That is, say the facts he gives, but not in the same way he says it.  That entails more than just changine one or two words (because usually were working with more complex sentences than what I’ve provided).  Its a complete rewrite of the information in your OWN WORDS.  And even after you do that, it is proper to cite the source of the facts you are stating, otherwise the reader doesnt know if what you are saying is backed up of if you are making it up.  Again, you do this with proper citation.  The rules of this are stated in any MLA handbook, which should have been on your high school book list, or college book list at the latest.

And now for the part Ms Edwards had trouble with: inserting the information into a work of ficiton. 

Again, this is successfully done with paraphrasing and ingenuity, keeping the information while weeving it into the story.

Here’s what CE did—

The dog walked over to Native American Hero and White Heroine.  “This is my dog,” Native American Hero said.  “Dogs are loyal animals.  They love to play fetch, chew on bones, and dig holes.”

See what that was?  That was steaking John Smits work word for word without credit.

Here’s what she should have done—

The dog walked over to Native American Hero and White Heroine.  “This is my dog,” Native American Hero said.  “Toss him a stick to chase, he loves to play fetch.”
“That’s so fascinating, I didn’t know that about dogs,” White Heroine said.  “What else does he like?”
“Well my dog likes to chew on bones,” Native American Hero said.  “And many dogs like to dig holes, but mine doesn’t because he has a unique personality.”

See the difference?  Yeah, it takes a little longer and there’s more effort involved, but it still shows the attention to facts and detail CE wanted to have in her books, without the stealing.  It’s not that hard, and it makes for a more interesting read. 

If she had a bibilography page the publisher decided not to include, it wouldn’t have mattered if she had paraphrased the information properly, because she wouldn’t have been snagging word for word, and credit would not have been neccessary (although still polite).

Major kudos to a corporation that does the right thing. In this day and age, it’s a damn rare thing.

Damn right they did the right thing.  And good for them!

How anyone can think otherwise, is simply beyond my comprehension.  Honestly.

If you post the wrong thing you will be opening yourself up to one heck of a slander lawsuit.

I can’t believe I’m quoting the Spiderman movie, but: “Slander is spoken. In print, it’s libel.”

...Also, you see what I did just there? I made note of the fact that the words were not my own, and mentioned the original source! GEE THAT WAS HARD.

Seriously, I hate to get so second grade about it, but I’m going to have to call major BS on the “I never knew copying sentences/paragraphs without quoting was wrong” thing. As an undergrad in college, I have been drilled on the rules for avoiding plagerism so often that I have gotten utterly sick of hearing them. I think it’s actually a legal boilerplate to give us the “academic misconduct” speech at the beginning of every class each quarter. In high school they retaught us how to properly cite sources and what needs to be credited in EVERY English class, and depending on what we were doing in some History and Science classes too. If you have managed to get this far in life (you mentoned high school in past tense, so…I assume you at the very least have a GRE) without ever being taught what plagerism is and how to avoid it, then either I am very concerned for the state of education at the school you attended, or you clearly never listened when your teachers tried to inform you of things.

I wonder which is the more likely?

Oh, snap.  As a writer (non-fiction) and university instructor I have to reply to SAM’s latest.

Let me ask each of you this question…How many of you did book reports and essays in High School?  How many of you never used complete sentences or paragraphs from your research?

Never, cause that would be plagiarism, which is a form of theft.

I’ll be honest and admit that I did.  I quoted statistics, information, etc., and used them in my reports.  Is that stealing?

Yes.

If it is then 90% of all high school students have turned in reports with stolen work.

Now who’s trying to characterize an entire group of people to fit her argument?

I always thought plagiarism was when someone takes another person’s story, poem, book, etc., changes it, and claims it as their own.

You thought that changing it made it plagiarism, but lifting it verbatim was kosher?  Really?  Interesting reasoning.

But then again, I’m not an author, writer, editor, or publisher.

Shocker.

Isn’t it possible that Mrs. Edwards actually did not realize using parts of her research without changing the words was plagiarism?

No.

I have seen authors state that their publishers do not put a credit page even if the author includes it with their manuscripts.  Is that the author’s fault/wrong doings or does that fall on the publisher?

You’re right - if, in fact, Edwards sent in her ms with a foreword alerting her readers to the source of the many paragraphs lifted from the works of others, and her publisher for reasons unknown decided to refrain from publishing this, it would fall on the publisher.  Then again, if this were the (supremely unlikely) case, I think Edwards would want to explain it to her public, made up as it is of thousands of clamorous fans.

You are all entitled to your opinions, but so am I.  I believe everyone deserves a second chance as well as forgivness.

I don’t recall anybody denying you your right to an opinion.  I do recall jejune claims to knowledge that meant you were right and all of us were wrong and “gloating.”

And by my count, Edwards has had dozens of chances to publish without plagiarizing.

Actually, nobody here (that I know of) was relying on AP for info… since AP was getting the bulk of their info from SBTB.

We weren’t sideline players watching others and taking things for granted.  Some of these nice, hardworking peeps DID THE GRUNT WORK.  For which a few editors should thank them. 

As for bowing down to Nora… well, if I stop do I get to keep my pledge pin?  I mean *sniffle* it’s part of the secret handshake!

No, I didn’t use other people’s words in high school. Just like I didn’t copy off of other people during tests, just like I didn’t get other people to do my homework. Students who did do such things knew they were doing something wrong, they just didn’t give a damn. Students who were caught were punished. It appears that SAM suffers from a grossly inferior education, which is perhaps why her grasp of logic is so tenuous. Maybe Cassie Edwards went to the same high school.

I can’t believe I’m quoting the Spiderman movie, but: “Slander is spoken. In print, it’s libel.”

...Also, you see what I did just there? I made note of the fact that the words were not my own, and mentioned the original source! GEE THAT WAS HARD.

I just snorted Diet Coke up my nose.  *g*

Goblin:

Re-read what I said.  I said I “quoted statistics, information, etc., and used them in my reports.”  How is someone to get statistics and information on a subject unless they use the research they find?

All we were required to do was to put quotation marks around any information we used from books, magazines, and newspapers.  They didn’t start requiring credits and footnotes until after I had graduated.

I was an A/B student, always followed the rules, and never got in trouble.  We never discussed plagiarism in school but then again I took mostly science, biology, and business classes. 

I’m trying to understand things the way everyone here sees them.  To look at things the way you are.  There are just some things I don’t understand.

I had never heard much about plagiarism until the Janet Dailey/Nora
Roberts situation.  At the time I was working two jobs, raising a baby, and not able to follow the whole story.

I’m sorry that everyone is angry over my opinions.  I’m trying to see this from both sides.  I really am. 

I’ve been reading Cassie’s books since the Wild series first came out.  I have always enjoyed her books and have read all of them. 

I guess what I don’t understand is if someone writes a book to be used as research and another author uses that information why is it wrong?  Is it because the sources were not listed?

I guess what I don’t understand is if someone writes a book to be used as research and another author uses that information why is it wrong?  Is it because the sources were not listed?

People publish research so that the public can see and learn from their findings.  I’m sure the people CE plagerized from would have been happy she used them as a source if she hadn’t lifted their passages WORD FOR WORD.  The word for word is where the problem is, SAM.  If CE had taken the information and restated it in her own words, there wouldn’t have been a problem.  The facts are not under copyright, but the expression of those facts IS—save in the works that were in public domain of course. 

Researching is absolutely allowed and encouraged, but surely you can comprehend the difference between copy-pasting research and taking what you’ve learned and weaving it into a story.

Sam said:

“All we were required to do was to put quotation marks around any information we used from books, magazines, and newspapers.  They didn’t start requiring credits and footnotes until after I had graduated.”

That, in itself tells you what Cassie did was wrong. Even by your standards, she didn’t do that. No pretty quote marks.

Think on that.

I’m trying to understand things the way everyone here sees them.  To look at things the way you are.  There are just some things I don’t understand.

No.  You’re not.  You came in, guns blazing, saying everyone on here was gloating, called everyone who commented in a reasonable fashion “asses” and called Nora Roberts, by name, a bitch.  Oh, and lest we forget, the threats of lawsuits and knowledge of the “truth.”

I’ll agree that there’s a lot you don’t understand, starting with reasonable discourse.

I guess what I don’t understand is if someone writes a book to be used as research and another author uses that information why is it wrong?  Is it because the sources were not listed?

For the love of all that’s good and holy, how many ways does it have to be spelled out that you cannot take someone else’s words and claim them as your own?

That’s what she did.  That’s what it boils down to.  And it wasn’t just research material or dry facts, there are instances of other works of fiction that she took, without attribution and tried to pass off as her own and succeeded for close to 25 years.  For God’s sake, if I was a fan of this woman’s work, I’d be PISSED.  Not defending her.  She ripped y’all off.  For YEARS.  She profited, over and over and over from someone else’s work.

I guess what I don’t understand is if someone writes a book to be used as research and another author uses that information why is it wrong?  Is it because the sources were not listed?

Think of it this way, Sam.  If someone took sentences and paragraphs out of Cassie Edwards’s books and sold them to a publisher as her own work, then she would be making money, in part, off of Cassie Edwards.  Because she would be passing it off as her own, and people would be buying the book thinking it was all her ideas and words.

It’s not wrong to take facts and use them in novels, or to use names from history or other well-known things (like if you quote from the Constitution, that doesn’t necessarily have to be acknowledged, because the idea is that people know it and so you’re not trying to pretend it’s your writing).  But in the same way that a novelist crafts his or her writing, so do the people who wrote all those things Cassie Edwards took sentences and paragraphs from.  They have their own unique style, too, and they have spent many years of their life researching for the work they publish.  So when someone comes along and takes that work and incorporates it into a book under her name only, it’s like she’s making money off all those other people, too, who aren’t getting paid and aren’t even being acknowledged as the author of some of those passages.  Especially if she doesn’t even try to change the words in a lot of the stuff—just copies it word for word.  Novels and research books and articles.  In that case someone is taking the hard work and expertise of other people, plunking it down into her books, and selling it as her “original” work.  Under her name only.  Can you see how that’s not right?

No.  You’re not.  You came in, guns blazing, saying everyone on here was gloating, called everyone who commented in a reasonable fashion “asses” and called Nora Roberts, by name, a bitch.  Oh, and lest we forget, the threats of lawsuits and knowledge of the “truth.”

She ripped y’all off.  For YEARS.  She profited, over and over and over from someone else’s work.

Exactly, Barb. I guess I didn’t make myself clear.

The definition of plagiarism from Dictionary.com

the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one’s own original work.

This is wrong. 

This is what Cassie Edwards did. 

She took word for word language from other authors and passed it off as her own.  Many authors incorporate research into fiction without using the language of others.  Ms Edwards could have taken her research and incorporated it into her works of fiction, as shown very simply by Peaches.

SB Sarah attended a seminar at the RT conference at which three authors explained how to incorporate your research into your work.  So, it can be done.

Even when I was in school (in the dark ages back in the 70s & 80s in a small NH town), we were taught how to do research and incorporate that research into our papers using our own words.

I just don’t understand what is so hard to understand.

Jill

SAM: “I guess what I don’t understand is if someone writes a book to be used as research and another author uses that information why is it wrong?  Is it because the sources were not listed?”

It is not the use of the information itself that is wrong, it is the use of the way in which the information is conveyed which is wrong.

What people are angry about is not that Cassie Edwards used the facts that someone else gathered, they’re angry that she took the creative work of others in explaining those facts and used that as her own.

Instead of taking those facts and using her own words to convey the information, she stole passages word for word, and that is what is wrong.

Being someone who’s in college and writes research papers on a regular basis, I thought this information from my current student handbook should be passed along to SAM, who seems woefully behind in what’s allowed in an academic setting.

At its simplest, plagiarism may be defined as the act of passing someone else’s work off as one’s own. Violations usually include:

  * presenting the exact words of a source without quotation marks;
  * using another student’s computer source code, algorithm, or laboratory results (measurements) or copying a laboratory report;
  * presenting information, ideas, or facts summarized from a source without giving credit;
  * submitting a term paper purchased from a commercial company or a report from another student; and
  * copying large segments of an author’s words without properly citing the source.

Here’s a line out of Hike the Black Hills Country—a current research book.

“It is an easy and refreshing hike, and the numerous crossings over the narrow, and sometimes deep, creek add to the fun.”

If I copied that into my book, I’d be guilty of copyright infringement.

Instead, I’d have to do something like: She took one of the many crossings over the creek, deep now from the recent rains. The sound of rushing water added to her enjoyment of the easy hike.

Used the facts, used my own words.

That’s a small and very simplistic example of the difference between writing and copying.

Thanks for taking the time to explain exactly what plagiarism is and what the differences are and how research should properly be used. Especially that any information that is used must have credit going to the original author.

Nora, I really am sorry for calling you names.  I was wrong.  I had no right to say that to you.

To everyone else, I’ll stay away from the site.

SAM-

Clearly Nora’s response must be her own, but I wouldn’t wish for you to stay away from the site. That last few replies you posted have been thoughtful and inquisitive, which is exactly what I like here. They can’t have been easy to write after the hostile tone this board took, and I respect you for writing them anyway. Especially because many people would just have vanished back into the Internet or come back under a new name and never bothered to apologize at all

All we were required to do was to put quotation marks around any information we used from books, magazines, and newspapers.  They didn’t start requiring credits and footnotes until after I had graduated.

I guess what I don’t understand is if someone writes a book to be used as research and another author uses that information why is it wrong?  Is it because the sources were not listed?

Sam, sam sam sam.  I’ve watched this saga from afar but as a writer, this drama just pisses me off.

Let’s make this clear:  Edwards didn’t steal research.  She stole writing.

What you must understand about being a writer is that we take for-freaking-ever to come up with ways to communicate ideas originally.  We hammer out scenes, sculpt dialogue, and agonize over even the tiniest turn of phrases.  The first thing I learned as a writer is that reading the finished work is easy, but making it—actually sitting down and coming up with words that stick in a reader’s brain—is hard.  That’s what makes someone a good writer.

When Cassie Edwards lifts a writer’s passages, she’s stealing their work for her own profit.  Since you have a child, let me put it this way:  You invest money into caring for your baby—doctor’s visits, food, clothes, affection, etc—and he/she grows up and you enjoy being his/her mother.  Then someone steals that child and does whatever they want with it. 

That’s what it’s like.

I’m not even a fiction writer (I write nonfiction and speeches), but I would kill the bastard that tried to pass off the work I slaved over as my own.  Imagine what Henry Longfellow would do if he were alive today and saw that Edwards lifted and corrupted passages from Hiawatha.  It took him months to write that poem.  Then some lazy writer distills your twenty lines about your epic hero into a setting for a steamy love scene—and claims that she wrote it.

You are clearly not a writer, or a person who understands one iota of the life of the artist.  You have no idea what you did by pissing off Nora Roberts:  essentially, you just told her—a woman who has spent years honing her craft and making a living off it—that someone else can leech off her livelihood.

I’d say apologize, go raise your child, and never make a comment about writers unless you know what the hell you’re talking about.

And of course I post my comment when all the drama is over.  Typical.  :-P

SAM, finally.  I hate having to come off sounding bitchy to anyone, but you punched that one evil button that sets me off. Fortunately, I thought I contained myself quite well, considering what transpired.

As for you avoiding the blog, why? How else would you learn some facts about the publishing industry and how it works? I’m still learning. We all are to a certain extent. Just remember to get your facts straight before charging into any forum like a freight train. You’ll end up being a caboose—forgotten and left behind.

It would be a lot easier to accept an apology without the qualifications.

It would probably be even easier if the apology was actually offered, rather than implied.  Saying:

I’ve decided to apologize for the name calling

isn’t the same as apologizing for the name calling.

Peaches, that was an excellent example of copying vs. paraphrasing.  I really don’t see how it can be made more clear.  But I’ll add in my two cents anyway, because I, too, am an opinionated bitch.

SAM, most authors do uncountable hours of research to give their novels authenticity, and much of what they research makes it into the novel only peripherally, if at all.  (Susan Johnson is the only fiction-writer I’ve read who has end-notes in her novels, and to be honest, they were a little distracting.)

However, if an author, in her research, comes across information that moves her such that she feels everyone should know it (I must make the world aware of the plight of these nearly-extinct creatures!), or if she models her characters or events on actual historical people and their lives, she normally includes that information in her acknowledgement page or author’s notes, and probably provides links to some of her research on her website.  She does not put the researchers’ words into her characters’ mouths.  (Especially when doing so makes the dialogue so awkward!)

If you really, honestly can read through the examples of Ms. Edwards’ plagiarism that the Smart Bitches documented and NOT SEE what the problem is, please find a class, or a website, or a teacher or librarian to break it down for you.

Damn the time lag! Please ignore the “not an apology” of my previous post.

SAM, I agree with the others; I don’t see any need for you to stay away from this site.  This comment thread has been a vigorous discussion, but no bridges were burned, and we all found out we can have a difference of opinion.  I was underwhelmed by your initial posting, but I’m very impressed that you have the personal integrity to acknowledge your bad behaviour and overcome it.

Could someone who either was or wanted to be an English teacher, and who has been publishing dozens of books over a couple of decades remain ignorant of what constitutes plagiarism?

No.

I was an English teacher and you can better your bottom dollar that I know the differences…and so did my students.  Many a paper was handed back with the question, “Source???” and students did not get a grade until they cited the source.

Look, maybe not every teacher in the world is doing their job.  I’ve said over and over that the younger grades need to be taught proper citations…it shouldn’t wait until high school.  But if I’m going to set myself up as a professional writer and take payment for my work, you better bet that I need to know how to properly cite a source.  Even in fiction.

A doctor shouldn’t operate without knowing how to administer a shot, right?  Then a writer should know how to cite a source.  This is, after all, something we all learn how to do in high school.

I always cited my sources.  My teachers were smart enough to figure out if I didn’t, just as the SBs were smart enough to see a problem in Mrs. Edward’s work.

Awwww. I feel some remorse for being so snarky before. I respect you for your second sincere apology, SAM, and I appreciate the fact (now) that you truly didn’t understand the nature of our complaints, and you took steps to do so. We’re pretty frank around here but I hope that you at least feel free to lurk around even if you don’t join the discussion. :)

They can’t have been easy to write after the hostile tone this board took, and I respect you for writing them anyway. Especially because many people would just have vanished back into the Internet or come back under a new name and never bothered to apologize at all

No kidding.  ITA.  I know I’ve been uncomfortable with some of the comebacks on both sides, but we’re not an easy bunch, which IMO makes an apology even more difficult to deliver.

I guess what I don’t understand is if someone writes a book to be used as research and another author uses that information why is it wrong?  Is it because the sources were not listed?

I am a technical writer. There are huge chunks of user manuals where something so common and so standardized is being described that it’s impossible to come up with a fresh and original way to describe it.  How many ways are there to tell someone to plug thr cable into the printer?

Using the facts is OK. Using the facts is GOOD, not just OK.

But, taking the way I explained the facts - outside those narrow and boring areas - and using my words in your own work is not OK.  Especially not for fiction.

Especially because many people would just have vanished back into the Internet or come back under a new name and never bothered to apologize at all

Indeed; I’ve seen that behavior many, many times on other boards.  It’s very easy to disappear, and very difficult to stay and apologize.  SAM, that couldn’t have been easy to write, and you certainly have my respect for posting it.

SAM, it’s good to see you come back and try to understand this whole thing.  It’s not easy.  I’ve learned a lot about this issue in the past few months from reading here and at DA. 

What’s worse for you is that you are clearly a big fan of CE.  That’s tough.  I’d be pretty damn bummed if something shitty came out about Nora Roberts.

I have to say, SAM, you’ve earned my respect back. Thanks for being willing to listen to what other people think, for being open-minded enough to change your mind, and for having the class to admit that fact after such a long and acrimonious discussion. Please stick around.

Now that the drama is over, I’d like to say that I won’t sue anyone who uses my trademark word ‘hambergasm.’

I’m glad you came to your senses, SAM.

It’ll be interesting to see what Dorchester Leisure does, now that Signet has set such a good example. Should I be optimistic?

I am struck by an irresistible urge to go out and buy a Signet book.

Joanna, I was wondering the same thing.  Her other publishers are Dorchester and their imprint Leisure, is that correct?  Here is hoping that they do the correct thing as well.

And might I suggest for anyone who doesn’t know the depth of this fiasco, go to the third column on this site and click on the first one under the Cassie Edwards header that says, “A centralized document of the Cassie Edwards texts” to see what all the hubbub is about.  (Hey, someone may have been under a rock and might not know.)

I have a headache from reading all this.

I learned in early high school that if you want to use facts or other people’s research in an essay, go for it - just make sure you acknowledge it!
Nobody’s going to expect a teenager to have done personal research on the mating habits of salmon on their own. The teacher will expect they’ve got the information from a book. So you source it. You either put a number at the end of the quote and include a list of footnotes on the bottom of the page or at the end of the essay. Or you quote the author of the source material as you go.

You don’t pass someone else’s knowledge or unique phrasing off as your own.

(In a spooky coincidence, my current book has a ferret hero and footnotes. I finished the book long before the Cassie Edwards case came to light, now I’m waiting on a publisher to pick it up. Wonder if Signet might be interested?)

I appreciate the apology, Sam, and hope you stick around.

Just checked in after an RT hiatus, and ZOMG, lookit all the comments. Yow.

Kudos to Signet.

I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a troll backpedal before.  Interesting. 

Congrats to the SB’s for a job well done!

I’m very happy to see that Signet has thoroughly reviewed this and actually had the balls to make a clean break with CE. 

And for Nora Roberts - If my grandmother and I didn’t already own 95% of your currently published books, you can damn well be sure that I’d be at the bookstore getting them now.  It’s been a pleasure reading your comments and I admire your courtesy and restraint.

Wow, I go away for a weekend and have to see what all the fuss was about. I’m glad to hear that Signet fully investigated the issue and made their decision. I think that was the ethical thing to do (although I know some had hoped for lightning bolts to strike hard and fast).

SAM - I know it took a lot to come back and try to figure everything out and apologize. Welcome.

EJ McKenna said:

In a spooky coincidence, my current book has a ferret hero and footnotes. I finished the book long before the Cassie Edwards case came to light, now I’m waiting on a publisher to pick it up. Wonder if Signet might be interested?

Hmmm, a Catherine Coulter book (Rose-somethingorother) had a ferret… I wonder how she used her info. If nothing else, since this whole thing started, I have become very interested in how fiction authors incorporate research… I’m sorry I missed the RT workshop :(

Was that the medievel romance with the Martin?

Anyway, I’m getting ready to market my first YA, which features a ferret, too.  But it predates any of the kerfluffle.  I had ferrets for many years and they’re fun.

I know everyone is referring to recent stuff in romance as “negativity,” but I think the outing of both Edwards and, more recently, DAM (see Dear Author) was healthy.  Cut the cancer OUT.  Don’t pretend it’s just a nasty cut and cover it with a bandaid.

Hey Chrissy,

I’m a long time ferret mom and I have written several books with ferrets in them.  In fact my first release showcased my ferret Crikey!  LOL They are fun to use in a book.

Good luck with the marketing!

And I agree about the cancer.  Excellent analogy.

I’m late to this and mostly just a lurker but I still wanted to comment on something. While I agree that what Cassie Edwards did was wrong and think it’s important that it be dealt with I don’t know that I agree Signet should be given too much love for dumping her. I haven’t read Romance for a couple of decades and I mostly come here because you Smart Bitches ars FUNNY.
Signet published CE’s work for a loooonnng time. They made a lot of money as well. I know that her’s was the actual bad act, but Signet has some responsibility for the fact that their editorial process never did anything about her work. I think that may have a lot to do with the fact that in the 80’s publishers were printing just about anything submitted that was even barely readable. The market exploded and they all wanted in on it. If they didn’t figure out in 25 years what was going on they’re really incompetent. My suspicion is that they knew and they kept releasing her work because it continued to sell.
Good for them that they’re doing the right thing now, but it seems pretty unfair to make them out as heros now that they’re dumping a really old lady with the bad fallout.

What difference does her age make?

Once again as this was covered numerous times in the original threads, no publisher, no editor can possibly vet every book to check for copying. It’s impossible. And every author signs a contract—a legal document—that states what they are submitting to said publisher is original work.

The very fact that Signet has made money off these books should then lead to the fact they would continue to make money. Instead, they examined, reviewed, and placed integrity and ethics above that profit.

I can’t see how they can be blamed for not doing it sooner—or why they should be ‘suspected’ of knowing and publishing her anyway.

Signet hasn’t published Edwards for 25 years. I believe there were only 7 books by her involved in this published by them. She also has two other publishers.

This is not the genre’s fault. This is not the publisher’s fault.

This is the fault of the person who copied other writer’s work then passed it off as her own.

I’m kind of the mind that once a person is old enough to know right from wrong and understand the consequences, then age shouldn’t be used as an excuse, a rationale, etc.

People of all ages make mistakes.  Unless there is consequence, nobody learns from them.

Thank you. I didn’t mean her age made so much difference. Just that it seemed from what I’d read that she had been rather celebrated for quite a long time.
Much had been said about the difference in voice between her writing and what she had appropriated from other authors so I think that was what made me wonder about the publishers responsibility in her actions. I don’t know that much about editors and was wrong on that point.
And I have nothing against genre, I read a great deal of it. Some of the best writers work in what’s considered genre, of all sorts.
Once again thank you for the correction. I’ve followed the story because it did seem interesting that it was taken seriously. So much of the fiction I’ve always enjoyed doesn’t seem to be and it’s interesting how writers get treated depending on where their books are placed in the bookstore.

Justin, I imagine I sounded pretty snippy, so I’ll apologize.

When this came to light there were a few who went with the: Feel sorry for her, she’s old. Or: The publisher should have known.

To me, both these excuses or ploys diminish the act of copying. Which is the responsibility of the person who puts another’s words on the page and calls them her own.

When I was plagiarized, one of the questions I was asked—several times—was why didn’t I know since it had been going on for so long. As if it was my responsibility that I’d been plagiarized for years.

So hot button for me.

Not at all Ms. Roberts.
I must admit my first response was “OMG I think I just annoyed Nora Roberts, I think I need to go hide under my bed”, but your points were well taken and I appreciate that this is both a hot button and that you certainly have the knowledge to back them up.
While I don’t generally read romance I’ve read your work and I am certainly honored to have had the chance to converse with you.
All the best.

Incidentally, the book by Catherine Coulter was ROSEHAVEN, and the hero had a pet pine marten—which at one point sneaked into the cell where he was being held prisoner and grawed through the ropes!  I’ll never forget that book: it’s the one where they milked the billygoat.

I wonder what the reaction would have been if Cassie Edwards had responded:  “I am horrified!  When I was in school, I was taught that what I did was legitimate research, not plagiarism.  I am very sorry; I apologize to all the writers whose words I used; and I shall publish a list of credits on my website.  And I’ll never, never, NEVER do it again!”  One might doubt her sincerity, but it would be an amende honorable.

WV—myself22   Only in my dreams….

they milked the billygoat.

Gag, gag, gag!  Instant squick!!

example26 - ohpleasenoidonotwanttoseethat!!

Tal said:
“I’ll never forget that book: it’s the one where they milked the billygoat.”
I have to say, in these days in which cross-species shape-shifting sexual congress is evidently highly popular, the visual I get from that is, well, a little eyebrow-raising.

When I was plagiarized, one of the questions I was asked—several times—was why didn’t I know since it had been going on for so long. As if it was my responsibility that I’d been plagiarized for years.

Like you’re able to read every book in the world just to make sure someone isn’t plagiarizing you!  What a stupid question.

I agree with Justin that it’s amazing that the publishers—that NOBODY—caught on to this after 25 years, but I think also that nobody really assumes a long published author would be plagiarizing to begin with.

I’m very proud of Signet for conducting their investigation and letting Cassie Edwards go.  This was a weighty issue that they were presented with and they took it seriously, far more than Ms. Edwards did herself. 

What outraged me more than just the reveal of the plagiarism, was the author’s attitude.  It came across to me as, ‘Why get upset, it’s only romances.  They aren’t important!  They aren’t serious, they shouldn’t count.’  In essence, romances should be held to a lesser standard than other forms of literature.  That holds the art form cheap. 

Romances are literature, and they should and do have an artistic standard to uphold.  What CE did wasn’t copying a paragraph in the encyclopedia in a report on the diamond mines during the Boer Wars because she was out with friends and didn’t get her report done in time for class.  She was lifting the writing of others, passing it as her own and profiting by it.  She made money off the black footed ferret article, Indian memoirs, and novels written by others.  Income, that the estates of the writers of the public domain works are not entitled to have, she gained.  She profited by others out of sheer laziness.  I find that despicable. 

I do amateur writing.  I’ve been accused of being elitist and a story nazi because I believe if you are going to write, you write your best, whether it is for a paycheck or simply your own and your readers pleasure.  To do less than that insults the art.  And art matters.  Which is to treat all of your writing seriously, with respect it deserves.  Despite it being a romance, a review of a porn film, a piece of fanfiction, a term paper on the poems of Rumi, or next ABA Book of the Year.  It is all part of the same artistic altar, this beauty and love of words.  The respect it deserves is something holy, the thread of connection, the link to the story telling of our ancestors, we embrace that large and small.

Never sell that short.

I know everyone else has lauded Nora Roberts with accolades, but I can’t resist to add my own.  Madame, I salute you.  It took courage to stand up and speak out on this issue.  There are many writers who might say something in private, but say nothing in public because it might affect their career.  By adding your voice, I have no doubt that it added to the storm and made sure something was done and this wasn’t swept away.  Thank you, and all the Smart Bitches.  We readers are grateful.

Maybe the lawyers reading the thread can answer this. It occurs to me that a publisher like Signet would want to distance itself as quickly as possible from the plagiarist once the extent of the copyright infringements becomes apparent, because the damages for willful infringement are higher.

Obviously, a person like Paul Tolmé could go after Edwards for infringement because his article is still under copyright, but would the publisher also be named as a party? And if so, would they be on the hook to the same degree as Edwards?

I’m not a lawyer, but I’d think the contract—the clause where the writer guarentees the work submitted as original—should protect the publisher to some extent. If that publisher continues to publish after infringement has been proven, that would be a different matter. I’d think.

That’s logical to me, so not necessarily legal.

Nora and Lynne -
Signet and the others have one chance to drop the hot potato, and Signet dropped theirs already. If Dorchester and whoever keep publishing, they will be buffet for the legal sharks.

If they “were aware or should have been aware” of the plagiarism they are dead meat. Given the extent of the plagiarism we were finding, and the massive media coverage, they would be looking at triple damages for willful infringement and a serious loss of reputation.

That said, I checked a couple of early and a recent book, and CE’s style has not developed at all. I don’t think she could edit them into publishable content because she hasn’t developed as a writer. Her books were: one basic plot, some stock scenes, and a lot of cultural detail from others.

Wow. This thread has been rivetting. Never before have I been witness to such scintillating drama. May I paraphrase this for a scene in my next novel? I promise to give you all due credit, use proper quotation maks, cite this website as a source, and include laborious footnotes ;o) I think the works cited section of the novel might end up being LONGER than the novel itself, but no one will be able to say that I was not diligent.

Kudos to you all for being such smart bitches and all around charming, intelligent, classy ladies. I am proud to be among you.

*basks in the radience of the smartbitchery in all their collective glory*

And Ms. Roberts, though you do not in any way require my two cents as validation, I quite agree that you handle a rather personal attack with grace and aplomb. *raises a glass to you* I will remember your example the next time I am ever told to shut up and keep my nose out of my own business. I am sure it will happen tomorrow at the very latest, as I too have a funny (and apparently offensive) way of standing up for what I think is right. Damn me, but I’m a bitch! At least now I can say I follow in the footsteps of the best :o)

Doubtless I have chimed in too late….well, better late to a party than never invited, even if by the time you get there, everyone has straggled home, and all the cake is gone except for the crumbs, right? I can’t eat sugar anyway, ha ha.

I don’t care what any of you say, or if Cassie DID steal. I still think she is the best romance author of our time. She had a way of gripping you in her stories and not letting go until you knew what happened in the end. Cassie is the reason I took up writing again, and I wish her all the best.

My father, a poli sci professor, is driven nearly insane by this every time he assigns papers…and yes, he marks them up with demands for source material citations and docks their grades

I know this is an old post, but I just had to comment…

Your father’s students are lucky. At the university I attend, any student caught plagiarising gets an automatic fail and can be expelled from their program with a note in their academic dossier explaining the reason for the expulsion, which makes it hard to get back into any other program at any other university. My high school gave an automatic fail to any work in which the student had plagiarised, again with a note in their report card stating that they had been caught doing so. When I was in grade 10 there was even a section added to our school’s rule book concerning this and there was a crack down. It’s considered a very, very serious offense, as it should be.