Bitchin' Blog Posts
Recourse, Refunds, and Redress: When You Buy a Fugly Ebook
by SB Sarah | by SB Sarah | April 22, 2010 | Thursday at 10:00 am | 74 CommentsDigital book pricing is all over the place, and different vendors have some books while others don’t, and sometimes when you find them, they’re so expensive you just give up and turn on the tv. Or maybe that’s just me.
But Marilyn wrote to me with a bigger problem: what happens when the ebook you buy is so horrible in its quality, so poorly completed that if it were paper, you’d return it?
She writes:
Would it help to write to certain publishers about excetionally poor proofreading in e-books? I recently purchased a 2-in-1 book and was stunned to see page after page of errors that looked as if they had been scanned in with a beta version of Omnipage and left without any proofreading. I would like my money back, or at least a newer, proof-read copy of the books.
This is the worst I have ever seen! It is Madeline Hunter’s By Arrangement and By Possession. It is virtually unreadable in its current form.
Here are a few of the more egregious errors:
die = the
ufe = life (multiple times)
ifour = if our
//1 = if
spht = sped
pxmishing = punishing(promising?)
co?TUption = corruption
pan = part
dissieised = ???(some middle english word with which I am unfamiliar)
aim = arm
hospilaUty = hospitality
sofdy = softly
J = I
/ = IAs you can see, there are many and they crop up on almost every page. I might have had an easier time reading this if it had been written in Edwardian English.
Is there any recourse?
My response: I don’t care if the terms and conditions state that ebooks are not returnable. If the book text looks like Elvish had dirty sex in a blender with Urdu and Basque and you paid for it, you should seek some form of return, at the very least for credit.
Unfortunately, there is little recourse with the publisher directly because it’s difficult to find a customer feedback response form on most publisher websites. You can always pen a polite email to the author asking whom she thinks might be the best person to address - but there’s little to say to the publisher. So many things can go wrong - someone didn’t proofread, but who was it that should have done the proofreading? If you’re asking me, the publisher is responsible, but who at the publishing house? As more out of print and older backlist books come back to life as digital scans, more of this type of text error will become more common.
I think you should contact the store you bought the ebook from, and advise them that due to the poor quality of the book, you would like to have a refund for your purchase. If that’s not granted, you can contest the charge on your credit card through your credit card company. Many if not most credit card purchases come with varying forms of consumer protection against poor or faulty quality. A few screen shots of “die hospilaUty / experienced in my ufe contrasted with the pxmishing co?TUption of my death” should make that hideously clear.
I heard back from Marilyn a few days after I sent her my response:
This is an update on your suggestion to contact the author and the seller about my experience with an extremely bad reading experience. I contacted Customer Service at Kindle/Amazon and explained the problem with the book.
This morning I received an email letting me know that they had fully refunded the price of the book and notified the publisher of the problem. I was astonished to say the least.
I would encourage all e-book readers not to suffer in silence. Hopefully enough refunds will eventually get through to the publishers of these below-standard books.Thank you for your suggestions.
Feel free to use my name in any mention of this experience.
One thing about Amazon and the Kindle, if you contact them with a problem with an ebook, and I have multiple times, they are very quick to respond with refunds.
So what else could be done besides seeking redress from the vendor where you purchased the book, or from the credit card you used to buy it? I have the following humble suggestion for the publishing industry:
Put the name of the copy editor, the editor, and the company who did the ebook conversion on the book itself.
I’m not kidding. Increased transparency=win. The copyright information on the book should not only include the names of the folks who designed the cover, who took the photographs, but also the names of the people who edited the book, who copy edited it, and what firm produced the ebook format conversions. Some publishers already tell you who edited a book - and that is most spiffy. But did you know that on many pirated ebooks, there’s a notation in the front as to which person (by user handle, not real name, of course) scanned the file, which person proofread it, and which person checked it for accuracy. It’s not like you can email SP1derzdanz13 and say, “Dude, you suck,” but more likely than not, the pirated copy with user names listed will be pristine in terms of quality when the same book from a publisher may not. Piracy flourishes, among other reasons, because the legitimate product is poor and the pirated version is better.
If you name names, there’s personal accountability for both the production side and the consumer side - and knowing that someone verified the accuracy of the digital file speaks volumes as to whether that product is valued by the entity producing it. It’s about time the author stopped taking heat for shitty looking ebooks - and well past time that readers knew who to whom they might address their complaints.
In the meantime, if you get a shitty ebook, ask for your money back. Complaining about the prices is one thing, and believe me, I do it. But the idea of paying higher prices for a complete absence of editing and proofreading? Oh, Hell No.
Any pricing model can kiss my ass if the publishing house can’t be bothered to run spellcheck before they publish a file. And I’ll put my name on that statement any time.
Filed: Ebooks, General Bitching
Tagged: wtfery, publishers, make the burning stop, kindle, funfortunately, ebooks, copyright, amazon
Marguerite said on 04.22.10 at 11:08 AM • [link]
I have had similar problems with e-books from Amazon before, and have also gotten quick refunds from them when I’ve pointed out the errors.
I completely agree with your recommendation that the conversion information also be included with the e-book version. I’ve been compiling my own personal list, and can see some patterns starting to emerge in terms of publishers, but ultimately it comes down to the conversion and e-book copyediting choices by those publishers.
I do have a question (or five), though, and I mean it (them) seriously. What format are the books in when they are sent to the printer? Why is it so difficult to get a properly-checked e-book when such errors would rarely happen in print? Why are conversion methods still so error-prone - are they working from a digital file, or scanning a print copy? In fewer but still notable cases, why does it seem that the earlier drafts of books are going out in the e-format, rather than the final draft?
I don’t expect you guys to have all of the answers, although you do seem to collectively know everything ever asked on the site (:p), but any information at all would be really appreciated.
anti-spam: tax62. Coming up with these 62 questions has really taxed my grey matter!
Shae said on 04.22.10 at 01:49 PM • [link]
I think my favorite mistake in a ebooks is the word “anus” instead of “arms.” Then you have a sentence like “He held her in his anus.”
HeatherK said on 04.22.10 at 02:01 PM • [link]
Fortunately, I’ve not come across an ebook with errors that bad—yet (knock on wood). I’m not saying they were error free, because they weren’t but they weren’t so bad I couldn’t ignore them. And is it bad that the worst offender was from one of the bigger publishing houses?
There are options out there for instances like this, unfortunately, they aren’t widely known or easy to find options. Of course, it would help if people (general term there) would start seeing ebooks as REAL books and not a medium that takes away from the “real” paper/hard cover books.
Cassie said on 04.22.10 at 02:20 PM • [link]
I agree, in theory. There should definitely be way to contact publishers and let them know that this level of errors is unacceptable.
However, what you suggest would be very difficult in practice. Most editors are hesitant to put their contact information out there, because then they would completely swamped with people pitching them books, sending them unsolicited manuscripts, etc. It would make it hard for them to actually do their jobs—which is the edit the books that they’ve already acquired.
Also, a lot of these errors could have been the fault of the production staff—it’s very difficult to know who, exactly, is to blame. The only solution I can think of is for publishers to have a dedicated email address for ebook concerns and complaints, but then the problem becomes who is responsible for reading and responding to those emails? Editorial? Production? A new person, whose salary would have to be paid, therefore potentially increasing the price of ebooks?
Something should be done, absolutely. I’ve had issues with poor quality ebooks myself, and I know how frustrating it can be. But I don’t think increased transparency of the editorial staff is the answer.
Cara McKenna / Meg Maguire said on 04.22.10 at 02:30 PM • [link]
I’m happy to report that one of my publishers, Ellora’s Cave, includes an e-mail address for reader comments right in the ebook itself and they invite people to report any typos they find. That said, EC’s a primarily electronic operation, so it’d be rather sad if they weren’t ahead of the curve when it comes to those sorts of issues.
SB Sarah said on 04.22.10 at 02:34 PM • [link]
@Marguerite: “I do have a question (or five), though, and I mean it (them) seriously. What format are the books in when they are sent to the printer? Why is it so difficult to get a properly-checked e-book when such errors would rarely happen in print? Why are conversion methods still so error-prone - are they working from a digital file, or scanning a print copy? In fewer but still notable cases, why does it seem that the earlier drafts of books are going out in the e-format, rather than the final draft?”
From what I understand, it depends on the publisher and the company they’re using for the format conversion. It’s difficult to get a properly-checked ebook for a myriad pile of reasons, not the least of which is sheer unmitigated giant crapload of work. There’s simply not time for one editor to re-read every digital file before it’s sent out. Just not possible. I’ll be frank: Pirates check their work because they’re working on that one book voluntarily. It’s not like they’re getting paid. As far as error prone files, some are scanned print copies that aren’t checked once the scanning is complete - which leads to crazy errors like being held in his anus (like a gerbil?).
@cassie: “Most editors are hesitant to put their contact information out there, because then they would completely swamped with people pitching them books, sending them unsolicited manuscripts, etc.”
It happens already - most are not difficult to find if you apply some rudimentary Google-fu.
Angela James said on 04.22.10 at 02:45 PM • [link]
Though you know I’m not against editors being listed in the books, in this particular situation I think it would be incredibly unfair for the editor/copy editor to be held responsible for what are conversion errors. Their job was done when the print book was done, and once the publisher decided to go back and convert a previously print book to digital (probably by OCR—Optical Character Recognition. Ie: scanning) they don’t send it back to the editor and copy editor so the editor/copy editor have no responsibility or recourse in this process, any more than the author does. In some cases of books being converted years after they were first put in print, it’s entirely likely the editor/copy editor might not even work for that publisher any longer!
Hopefully, as publishers start moving backlist to digital, they’ll learn that readers don’t just want A digital version, they want a digital version that has the same care put into it as the print version, and that includes hiring a quality conversion company and hiring proofreaders to look over the converted files before sending them out into the wild.
Kinsey Holley said on 04.22.10 at 03:02 PM • [link]
Marguerite: that’s a good question. When you have multiple errors like anus for arms, it would seem to indicate that they scanned a print copy. E-first publishers like Samhain and EC wouldn’t do that (she says as if she knows what she’s talking about). When I sub a manuscript to Samhain it’s in electronic format and then they do….whatever they do…to put it in the various e-formats.
Maybe the NY houses just scan their stuff? That would really surprise me, but who knows.
Samhain lists the editor of the book, as well as the cover artist, on the verso (or what would be the verso, if it were print) along with all the other bibliographic information.
When we’re talking about primarily e-pubbed books - i.e., books that begin their lives in electronic format, not print books digitally scanned into eformat - I think the ultimate responsibility for errors has to rest with the author. You gotta proof. You gotta proofproofproofproofproof.
Which is why the author whose book almost got released with “lathed” instead of “laved” is scarred for life.
SB Sarah said on 04.22.10 at 03:07 PM • [link]
@angie: So who should be held responsible, then? With whom should the consumer communicate? The party responsible for the production and release of the book? That would be the editor, then.
If the content is inconsistent, has faulty character development or a plot that I can drive a tractor trailer through with ease, I hold the author responsible.
If the book itself is ridden with errors that are the result of production flaws, who is the person at the helm of that process? The editor, right? So what’s with whom the buck stops.
My point about adding names is that transparent accountability will likely yield improved production. (ETA): I didn’t just say the editor’s name should go on the file: copy editor and conversion firm as well. If the quality is that freaking poor as the example above, the author’s name shouldn’t be the only one on there.
SB Sarah said on 04.22.10 at 03:08 PM • [link]
@kinsey: I got your lathe right here, yo.
Kathleen Dienne said on 04.22.10 at 03:14 PM • [link]
The person responsible for a bad scan was the beancounter who said “Hell no, I’m not paying a proofreader, the book was already proofed when it went to print. When I scan a document on my scanner here, it comes out looking like an exact copy of the book, whaddya need proofreaders for?”
That guy’s name is never going to be public.
But “contact the publisher at this address” should really be the minimum standard in this day and age.
Angela James said on 04.22.10 at 03:19 PM • [link]
I’m not talking about all books, I’m talking purely about this situation and any situation that involved books that started life in print years ago and are now being put through the digital conversion process. In this particular case, if you look at the original copy of this book, published in…2000? I’m going to bet those errors aren’t in there. Why should the editor/copy editor be held responsible for conversion errors that take place ten years after they last saw the original book? Why would you even want to hold them responsible for conversion errors?
The editor and copy editor have absolutely zero control over the production of the book from print to digital when we’re talking about backlist conversion. None. They’re not involved in any step of the process. That’s the production/digital team. How is having the editor/copy editor (and the copy editor is most likely a freelancer) name on the book going to improve transparency in this situation? It only gives readers, such as yourself, a false target and a belief that the editor/copy editor somehow even got to see this digital file ten years later. No one who sees a file like that really believes that ANY editor, copy editor or proofreader saw the book. Editors and copy editors get enough crap for the errors they are responsible, I don’t think it’s necessary to now tell them they also get to be responsible for errors inserted by the conversion process ten years later.
Brian said on 04.22.10 at 03:32 PM • [link]
Amazon’s been great for me the times I’ve had major book formatting problems. Refunds were very prompt. Fictionwise on the other hand can’t even be bothered to respond the emails lately.
Of course refunds are fine and good, but I bought the book because I wanted to read it. If the book is DRM free it’s not such a big deal, sometimes, to fix it yourself if the errors aren’t huge. Since all the big pubs insist on DRM it’s good that uninfecting those files is fairly trivial (even if it is most likely illegal).
At this point most pubs don’t seem to be concerned with quality in the least. Even a pub like Samhain doesn’t seem to care that much when there are errors in their books. I emailed them a few errors and while they were quick to reply with thanks I notice that the book still has those errors when redownloading from MBaM.
One problem I’ve noticed with epub files from some e-publishers seems to be a formatting decision, as opposed to an error that slipped through, but it bugs me none the less. They seem to insist on having the book’s title in huge print at the start of every chapter (maybe some folks like that?). I usually end up getting the mobi file and converting that to epub instead of using the publishers epub. They must either all have the same company making the epub files for them or all be using the same software to make them.
I know the big guys are trying to get out lots of backlist titles to meet demand and such. And I know that most of those are being made from the scan/OCR method or from converting a PDF used from the print edition (which can provide worse results than scan/OCR). But they if they’re going to insist on pricing the ebook like the pbook then they need to try and make the ebook a quality product.
One thing almost all publishers are missing, especially the biggies, is an effective way for consumers to communicate things like this to them. For most of them ebooks are still an afterthought and the individual consumer isn’t considered their ‘customer’ by them.
SB Sarah said on 04.22.10 at 03:35 PM • [link]
So looking specifically at this situation, then, how is a reader to know that there is a “digital team?” I know there is one at HQN, for example, and I’m pretty sure there’s on at HarperCollins/Avon, but there’s one at every publisher? I have no idea. I have a crappy ebook. Sorry. A C&appy; eboo|. Now what the hell do I do?
My point is: if it’s not the editor/copy editor, and, as you say, clearly not one person looked at the book before it was sent out for distribution and sale, what’s the recourse? Who makes the decision to digitally release backlist? Production? Random person in charge of rights long held for books that might sell?
Fine, then. Bring on the accountability. A person or persons is accountable for the poor quality. To sell a digital book file that poorly created is unacceptable. And most people don’t know they can return an ebook, much less bring it to the attention to the publisher.
I’m not after assigning blanket blame to editors or setting up false targets - most editors I’m acquainted with are overworked and understaffed due to rampant layoffs and contracting editorial departments. But looking at this situation in particular, and the general errors that are so frequently found within digital books, there needs to be accountability and redress. It’s someone’s job to ensure quality of print. The same should be applied to digital regardless of where in the history of backlist the book emerged. “It’s not my job” is not going to help the situation any more than blaming the night cleaning crew for the production errors.
Angela James said on 04.22.10 at 03:41 PM • [link]
Brian, I don’t know if it will make it “better” for you or not, but I’m sure it’s not that Samhain and other pubs don’t care that the errors you report are in the books, but it’s actually not that easy to change the files. I know it seems like it should be, because they’re digital, but the publisher actually has to go back to the original file, change the errors and then reformat to each format, and then reupload to everywhere the book has been sent. It’s a pretty time consuming process and when the publisher is also trying to get new content formatted and out to customers, it leaves little time for going back and correcting immediately.
What some pubs do is store up the errors for a batch change at a later date. Also, for publishers who send their files to be converted out of house, getting errors changed would mean paying for the conversion process (thousands of dollars) all over again. So, I hope you can see, it’s most definitely not a matter of not caring, but more a matter of balancing time and money resources against correcting several typos.
Kinsey Holley said on 04.22.10 at 03:46 PM • [link]
Sarah:
If only JR Ward had had you when “penile colony” went to print.
Word: suddenly23. That doesn’t sound so appealing. Suddenly33, on the other hand…
SB Sarah said on 04.22.10 at 03:49 PM • [link]
Wait, “penile colony” wasn’t a mistake?!! THE DEVIL YOU SAY.
Kristina said on 04.22.10 at 04:00 PM • [link]
It’s definitly an adventure to read some of the older books that are now available digitally. My favorite word switcheroo is still in the Lynsay Sands books the heroine being “wrapped firmly” in the hero’s anus. I kid you not.
The first sentence it appeared in talked about how the heroine had seen a man’s anus before, “of course” but his bare thighs scandelized her. The author being Lynsay Sands I was like WTF?? but ok, it’s Lynsay and she has a twisted sense of humor sometimes that I love. Maybe I just didn’t get the joke or something. Then when the heroine was wrapped firmly in his anus I got a little worried but figured (hoped) it was supposed to say arms and the scanner just burped at that word.
Still I whole heartadly agree that proofreading needs to step it up quit a bit. I’ve heard the excuse, but the books are old and that would mean re-reading them…ohhhhhh woe is me, the man hours that would entail. Ummm excuse me, you’re charging me for this book, the same price as the paperback usually, get off your ass and proof-read! Reading is part of the job title for craps sake.
security word = force 77 - don’t force me and 77 of my bitch friends to come over there and deal with you publishers, it won’t be pretty.
Kalen Hughes said on 04.22.10 at 04:01 PM • [link]
Good luck if you bought it at FictionWise. They never responded to the numerous emails I sent about a fugly book. They have the worst customer service I’ve ever encountered.
Jusy said on 04.22.10 at 04:05 PM • [link]
Before Fictionwise went into its current mess with publishing houses and prices, Fictionwise always answered my ebook problems promptly. They always offered two resolution paths—they will ebook fixed or give me a refund.
Brian said on 04.22.10 at 04:29 PM • [link]
@Angela, I know what it takes to make a change, I make ebooks for myself all the time. With a basic workflow it’s really not that hard. I can fix a book and re-create 5 or 6 formats in about half an hour. If I as a consumer, with admittedly a pretty good amount of ebook tech knowledge, can do it then surely the publishers can too.
The real problem comes in when I get a reply (from Laurie Rauch) saying thanks and she’ll see about getting it fixed. Which I guess implies to me that it’ll get fixed fairly soon (say a month or two). Months later (this was in October) the book’s still the same. In fairness these weren’t huge errors or anything and I’m sure are lower priority than others might be (although calling a character by the wrong name sure pulled me right out of the story). Another error with em dashes is consistently present in a certain authors books. The author’s newest title came out and it still has the same problem (em dashes actually show up as the fraction 3/4 in some places). The problem in the coding and how to fix it was even provided.
I know they have a lot of things to balance, but surely someone is tasked with quality control? It’s not like these are books for a buck or two. Pub’s like Samhain, Loose ID, Siren, etc. charge in the neighborhood of the same big pubs do for mass market books so I guess I hold them to the same standards for the most part.
As far as Fictionwise goes, it’s been going downhill since the Pendergast’s sold to B&N.
Joy said on 04.22.10 at 04:38 PM • [link]
I’ve worked on digitization projects and the degree of accuracy of scanned OCR stuff will depend on the degree of accuracy the publisher is demanding. Is it scanned, OCRed, and run through spell check? That’s where the errors like “hero’s anus” or “Soviet Onion” come from. Is it keyed? That will give you better results even from a data entry sweatshop in India. Double keyed? Even better. What degree of accuracy is specified in the keying contract? If the accuracy is 99.5% then you would expect about 500 mistakes in a 100,000 word novel. Is it going to be proofed, then? I’m gonna bet if you have noticeable mistakes on every page it hasn’t been proofed and possibly not even keyed. Words like “co?TUption” seem to imply no one even ran a basic spell checker.
SB Sarah said on 04.22.10 at 04:39 PM • [link]
Pardon the ignorance @Joy but what’s “keyed?” What does that mean/accomplish?
Brian said on 04.22.10 at 04:47 PM • [link]
Keying/Double Keying refers to data entry. Keying would be someone typing everything (as opposed to OCR) and double keying would mean it’s typed twice, once each by two different operators and then the files are usually compared via software. At least that’s my understanding of it.
Kinsey Holley said on 04.22.10 at 05:08 PM • [link]
Soviet Onion is awesome.
In another lifetime, when I was a legal secretary and, later, a word processor, whenever I ran spellcheck I always did a search for Untied States because that seemed to be my most frequent typo - my fingers just always typed Untied.
Had a friend who let a contract go out with provisions pertaining to offshore rights in Whales. Her attorney was really pissed, but couldn’t quit laughing long enough to yell at her.
I can’t imagine publishers will pay for double keying when they’re digitizing backlists. But they should pay for proofreading, or else not bother. A product as shoddy as the one Marilyn bought is worse than no product at all.
Kalen Hughes said on 04.22.10 at 05:58 PM • [link]
This problem was last year, so no dice on that excuse from where I’m sitting. They have got worse since though (which is amazing).
Joy said on 04.22.10 at 06:11 PM • [link]
Soviet Onion ... Fart Knox… there are a number of entertaining OCR errors if you are digitizing several hundred years worth of material :)
Keying is as Brian described. You can’‘t rely on OCR entirely, it can only get you close.
Joy said on 04.22.10 at 06:15 PM • [link]
I think keying is faster and cheaper than proofreading. That’s why one might do it, epecially if one is working from a text that has already been proofed.
Gwynnyd said on 04.22.10 at 06:29 PM • [link]
But… but… if a publishing company paid for a conversion that was riddled with errors to the point of unreadability, why wouldn’t the conversion firm fix them as part of the original contract price? I mean, once they were pointed out? Did the original contract read, “we agree you will OCD the file and understand you take no responsibility for all the myriad of known scanning errors we accept will be introduced by the process”? That’s, that’s ... well, words fail me.
Why shouldn’t the original contract cover x number of arms/anus types of changes? Maybe they should pay a good software developer to write something where they plug in the mistaken word and it automatically goes through the book’s files, fixes it up and spits out the multiple-formats of cleaned up file ready to go. The cost of something like that could be amortized across all the books and not born by any single title.
With all the rampant unemployment, surely, there must be some one/some company willing to do an OCR of a book and proofread it and do a search and replace on the egregious errors - for whatever sum they are paying now. [facetious] Maybe all the book pirates who care enough to clean up their scans can sell their pristine copies back to the publisher and get some extra income. Perhaps that would be cheaper for the publishers than what they are doing now. [/facetious]
Still glad I am not yet an adopter of this particular technology. Paper, give me paper until all this sorts out!
Angela James said on 04.22.10 at 06:39 PM • [link]
@Gwynnyd I was responding to Brian’s post about sending a few typos to a publisher that didn’t get corrected by reformatting and republishing, which is a bit of a different conversation and not about typos that occur during the conversion process. That’s a whole different subject!
Gwynnyd said on 04.22.10 at 06:51 PM • [link]
@Angela James - If the problem is then getting the corrections into the multiple formats, I want a unified format. I want them all to stop the pissing wars, suck it up, and settle on a format. They will sell more - to people like me who are resisting going into e-books because of the multiple formats - if they do.
Angela James said on 04.22.10 at 06:56 PM • [link]
That’s not entirely up to the publishers (especially small press publishers such as Samhain) so in Brian’s example, it’s still in the publisher’s best interest to have multiple formats, in order to meet the consumer’s format needs.
The reason is, because the device makers still utilize a variety of formats and DRM schemes, so publishers have to provide a variety of formats in order to meet the needs of different device users. So, let me use Carina Press as an example, since we’re just launching in June. If we sell only epub format from the Carina site, but sell via third party retailers like Amazon as well, we’re basically driving all Kindle commerce to Amazon, because the Kindle doesn’t use the epub format.
It’s a tough spot to be in. I know the answers seem easy (sometimes I think they should be easy myself) but the process really isn’t, I’ve come to discover these past few years.
mikaela said on 04.22.10 at 07:02 PM • [link]
The worst book I have read was a library book. Instead of Vi (=we), it said V. Everytime. O_o.
Then there is Colter’s woman by Maya Banks. Great story, but a few typos( just three or so). I just bought the rewritten version, and the same typos are still there… I suppose I should e-mail someone and point it out.
Moriah Jovan said on 04.22.10 at 07:03 PM • [link]
Quite frankly, I’m at the same loss as Sarah is.
And I know whereof Angie speaks about fixing a few errors in a bunch of formats and re-uploading them everywhere. O.M.G.
And I know how it is when a book you’ve formatted ends up with an error in it (hello Anne Frasier and Pale Immortal and a line of stray code I didn’t catch). Boy howdy, that was the fastest error fix in the history of digital formatting. (Fixed it for free, natch. WTF charging again for my mistake? I think not.)
And I put a notice on all ebooks I do that my firm was the digitizer.
Since I’m in a position to make decisions about when/whether/how to fix mistakes, I can only contribute to the cause by making sure I A) get it right the first time and/or B) fix it promptly and with profuse apologies. At the number of ebooks I do, I’m amazed I don’t have more mistakes.
BUT
I agree with whoever it was above who said that ebooks aren’t treated like REAL books and so ebook consumers get a shitty product. I can’t think of another digital-first/only medium that gets treated with as much disrespect.
Eh, no solutions from me, alas. As an ebook consumer, I’m just as annoyed/pissed off as everybody else. OTOH, I almost never know if the ebooks I buy are suffering from original formatting problems or from my ebook reader’s conversion software—and I’m NOT fixing those.
JoAnn Chartier said on 04.22.10 at 07:21 PM • [link]
Well, this is fascinatin’ tech talk, and I know I will never strip DRM (in part because I don’t know what DRM is) and while I am amused by Soviet Onion et al, for people like me just beginning to think Kindle or some other device could be a good investment, I’m afraid I might throw it out the window if I was reading something so riddled with errors. Do you suppose Guttenberg had some of these same issues?
Kinsey Holley said on 04.22.10 at 07:50 PM • [link]
Oh hell yeah. First book off the press, someone said “Hey! Where’s all the pretty letters?” and someone else complained that it just didn’t have the feel and smell of vellum…
Star Opal said on 04.22.10 at 08:17 PM • [link]
Favorite personally encountered error:
“Warehouse” turned into “Whorehouse,” changes some of the meaning it does.
Castiron said on 04.22.10 at 08:18 PM • [link]
If it’s a Kindle book, it’s possible that Amazon themselves were the ones who did the conversion. In that case, the publisher never sees the Kindle edition, unless they buy a copy themselves.
Re: Sarah’s suggestion: I agree with Angie that the acquiring editor and copyeditor should be left in peace. Listing the conversion service sounds like a fine idea, though.
Gwynnyd said on 04.22.10 at 08:30 PM • [link]
I understand and yes, I absolutely agree. It’s a clusterfuck. But it is not unique. I remember, not that long ago, when I had accounts with many isps (Compuserve, Genie, AoL, Arpanet, and AppleLink come to mind, but I’m sure I had accounts on more than that) because no isp would send email to people outside their own customer base. To get the same info to everyone I needed to, I had to send duplicate messages on multiple isps, each one with their own 1-800-number, log on and separate pricing that I had to pay each month. It was as much a pain in the ass as multiple e-book formats. The solution was not to get everyone using the same isp, it was to get a standard in place that allowed messages to be sent seamlessly between customers of different isps.
My point is that every e-reader, from whatever manufacturer, or copy of an e-book from whatever source, needs a standard format that always works and stop this shitting around with proprietary formatting.
Like isps in the early 90s, they are all in pissing wars to get the most market share and have their format be the one chosen as “the standard.” I do not care which one is chosen as the standard. I am a reader. I want the U.N.C.L.E., or IEEE, or some international standards body to step in and say, “It is this. Now stop whining and go publish books everyone can read.”
To drag it back on topic, if errors in the text needed to be corrected in only ONE format, maybe they could be done easier and quicker and might actually happen.
Brian said on 04.22.10 at 08:32 PM • [link]
It may be different for the smaller pubs (actually I’m sure it is), but most of the big ones (Hatchette, etc.) now only provide an epub file to their distributors. It’s the distributors that do the conversion to other formats if there are to be any so it’s really only correcting the one file anymore. A well formatted Kindle file (basically a Mobipocket file) can be created from a good epub in about 30 seconds.
But if your epub’s are solid it’s very little work to convert to .azw (Kindle format) and send the file to Amazon. A few minutes worth of work.
Really with a solid epub you can then go to Kindle, eReader, MS Reader, Mobipocket, FB2, etc. with very little work. Each format doesn’t need to be created from scratch or anything like it basically did years ago.
Of course I don’t know the actual workflows various pubs are using. I do work for a publisher though (trade books, not fiction books like we’re discussing here) and with a good workflow lots of stuff is fairly streamlined. The problem I’m sure is some pubs (especially the biggies) are probably trying to keep most of a 20-30 year old workflow and just tweak it to add ebooks as an off shoot.
On a side note (I’m sure it’s been mentioned somewhere) will Carina books have DRM on any of their formats?
SB Sarah said on 04.22.10 at 08:34 PM • [link]
Negative, Ghostrider: Carina is DRM free.
Brian said on 04.22.10 at 08:36 PM • [link]
It’s basically getting down to three formats now ePub, PDF (which is still surprisingly popular and which is needed for some text books and stuff) and Kindle/Mobi. Everything else would be a legacy format at this point (although there are still a lot of users for some of them like eReader).
Brian said on 04.22.10 at 08:37 PM • [link]
Rock on. Then folks can just buy the epub and convert it to whatever they want in Calibre.
Angela James said on 04.22.10 at 08:38 PM • [link]
@ Brian. What Sarah said. Though some etailers add their own DRM, our files are provided DRM free and will be sold direct from the website DRM free.
I think you misunderstood my Kindle example though. What I was saying is that yes, we will be selling through Amazon but if we choose to sell only epub from the Carina site, because that’s the only format we convert to, then we’re basically telling all Kindle owners they have to buy our books at Amazon, not direct from us (where we’d make more $$) because Kindle owners couldn’t put an epub file onto their Kindle since Amazon hasn’t opened up their device to epub format. So they’d have to go to Amazon for a compatible file/to make their purchase.
All that as an explanation as to why publishers choose to do multiple formats, because we don’t want to drive sales to just one etailer!
Amanda from Baltimore said on 04.22.10 at 08:40 PM • [link]
Since it seems like some authors read this site, and we are talking about typos, I would like to pose a question:
If you were a writer who had a new website that was RIDDLED with spelling and grammar errors, would you want a reader to email you about it?
An author I like has a terrible website, the errors are all over the place. I’d like to mention it to her, because I don’t think it represents her well. I’m sure the site is outsourced and she doesn’t actually do the rotton spelling, but you think she might look at it every once in a while…
Or should I do a big butt-outski?
Angela James said on 04.22.10 at 08:42 PM • [link]
Of course they can. But will they? Some readers will, but other readers, those not immersed in the technology of it, will simply assume no format they need means they can’t read the book.
I hope you don’t think my explanations mean I don’t agree with you, because most of the presentations I give contain this point, that we need to think about what will make it easiest for the reader. My only purpose in commenting here is an explanation that it’s not always as easy as just saying “this is what should be done”. Sadly, it is rarely that easy!
Agreed!
Kinsey Holley said on 04.22.10 at 08:45 PM • [link]
YES.
SB Sarah said on 04.22.10 at 09:12 PM • [link]
Amanda - that’s a really good question. I’m going to make it a new entry so more folks can respond - stay tuned.
Brian said on 04.22.10 at 09:19 PM • [link]
I’m sure it will be a problem to some extent.
Of course if you have an FAQ on your site about formats, like “Why don’t you sell your books in X format that I still use on my 10 year old device” you could point folks to Calibre (heck Adobe even tells publishers using InDesign to use it to make a Kindle/Mobi file from an epub).
It’s free and there are tutorials out there. Not that they’re really needed, if someone can use a computer they should be able to do a conversion in Calibre. It’s literally point and click. Plus has the added benefit of being a way for folks to organize their books and transfer them to various devices. I don’t know what it’s conversions to PDF look like (or why someone would want to), but conversions from epub to Mobi, eReader, LIT, etc. are great.
Not that it’s going to solve all the problems of not offering the other formats, but it might help.
Got ya. I guess I’d sell both ePub and Mobi on your site if I were you, but even though it’s easy to do the Mobi once you have the ePub I can see some reasons why you might not want to.
Gwynnyd said on 04.22.10 at 09:22 PM • [link]
If it were easy, and company prestige were not involved (MY format! Mine is the one that should be chosen as the standard!) it would already have happened. However, it is not a unique problem. The wheel need not be reinvented. Solutions have been found in other branches of the communications and electronics industries to problems that seemed just as thorny, convoluted to the participants.
At least I can be happy that when I buy a DVD, I never needed to have a MGM movie player stacked over my Disney movie player, stacked over my Paramount movie player, and not be able to watch 20th Century Fox movies at all without having to engage in technically-criminal actions because I just can’t afford a fourth player and I need to convert those pixels to see them. (although I do have one High-Def DVD hanging around somewhere…)
Ros said on 04.22.10 at 09:28 PM • [link]
So, I don’t know how this works in the US, but in the UK, rules about non-returnability do not apply if the product is shown to be defective. You are ALWAYS entitled to a refund if the product you bought does not adequately fulfil its purpose or has been sold with misleading advertising, etc. You go first to the place where you bought it and if they refuse you go to Trading Standards who will investigate (both the seller and the manufacturer, i.e. the publisher) and have the right to award you compensation and even close businesses down.
It seems to me absolutely clear that an ebook so badly converted as the one in the original post is not fit for sale. Amazon are doing the right thing in refunding the money, but if I were them I’d also be refusing to sell ebooks from that publisher until they’ve got their act together. As a customer, I’d be demanding my money back from wherever I bought the book and I’d also be making a huge public fuss in the reviews I left on the website. But I don’t think I would be contacting the publishers about it. Isn’t that the whole point of the agency system, that publishers don’t deal with readers? Well, fine, let them deal with the retailers who stop stocking their crappy products because of all the hassle they’re getting from customers demanding money back.
Castiron said on 04.22.10 at 10:10 PM • [link]
Answering some of Marguerite’s questions (disclaimer: I do not speak for my employer, the parent university, the state, etc.):
What format are the books in when they are sent to the printer?
These days, probably press-quality PDF, though I’d have to check with a production person to make sure. (Note that the PDF may not be coming directly from the publisher; it may be sent via the outside firm who typeset the book. Depends on the publisher’s production workflow; some typeset in-house, and others outsource.)
Why is it so difficult to get a properly-checked e-book when such errors would rarely happen in print?
Why are conversion methods still so error-prone - are they working from a digital file, or scanning a print copy?
For backlist, they’re almost certainly scanning print copies, because there aren’t digital files available. (Or if they are available, they’re PDFs, which often aren’t any better than print copies; you still have to run OCR on them. Or they’re electronic files in some format or program that your current computer can’t read, and it’s cheaper to have someone scan the book than to have someone convert and clean up the files. See also your last question.)
If you’re OCRing, you’re not going to get the quality of the original print book unless you proofread thoroughly. Which means extra expense—for a short novel, maybe $300-400; for a larger or complicated book, easily twice that.
That’s not too bad for one book in one format. But if you have 1000 backlist titles (and for a big publisher, it might be 5000 or 10K titles) to convert, and you’re trying to proofread multiple formats for each book…. Well, that’s a large up-front outlay of cash, which the publisher may well not have.
For a brand-new title, in theory there’s a file containing the final edited book, with actual words, images, and text formatting/tagging. In practice, that file may or may not be easy to convert into an ebook. (I’ve tried InDesign’s epub export on a relatively simple book, and the results I got were crap. That might be due to my inexperience rather than ID’s capabilities, though; I’m not in production/design.)
In fewer but still notable cases, why does it seem that the earlier drafts of books are going out in the e-format, rather than the final draft?
Perhaps the publisher had Word files of the original manuscript or the first edit, but those files didn’t have any corrections that were added in later on proofs; they used those files instead of having files made from the final book. That’d be my guess, anyway.
Becca said on 04.22.10 at 10:21 PM • [link]
but doesn’t the Nook use it’s own format? it seems like everybody who comes out with a new reader also comes out with their own proprietary format.
I’m with Gwynnyd - until the Format Wars and Price Wars and bad proofreading stuff gets settled, I’m not putting out my bucks for an expensive reader and more expensive ebooks when I can get it all settled in my print books.
Brian said on 04.22.10 at 10:28 PM • [link]
While the Nook can use eReader as a legacy format it also uses ePub just like Sony and others.
Note: ePub books from B&N do use a different DRM scheme, BUT the Nook can also use the more ‘standard’ ePub DRM scheme that everyone else (except Apple iBooks) uses. The DRM scheme B&N uses should also eventually be usable on Sony and other readers, but it isn’t at this point.
Tabetha said on 04.22.10 at 10:52 PM • [link]
Brian said on…
04.22.10 at 11:19 AM
Of course if you have an FAQ on your site about formats, like “Why don’t you sell your books in X format that I still use on my 10 year old device” you could point folks to Calibre (heck Adobe even tells publishers using InDesign to use it to make a Kindle/Mobi file from an epub).
Every single time I buy an ebook and need to strip the DRM off of it and/or convert it into another format it pisses me off and I wonder why I even bother.
One of the biggest selling points for ebooks is convenience (for online shopping in general for that matter) so why negate that benefit by not offering as many formats as you reasonably can? Every time you don’t offer a customer what they’re looking for you’re sending them to a search engine that’s going to offer them exactly what they’re looking for—a book in their prefered format, without DRM, without geo-restrictions and, oh yeah, it’s free. I wish people would actually give me what I want in exchange for my money instead of taking my money and telling me what I need to do to get what I want. It’s crazy.
Angela James said on 04.22.10 at 10:56 PM • [link]
And now we know why it’s not that easy for publishers to just do what readers want. Because on one hand they have readers like Gwynned who say “give me one format I can use” and on the other readers like Tabetha who say “give me the format I want”. Hopefully those two statements will merge into one cohesive comment someday, where the one format is the one everyone wants (like mp3), but we haven’t quite hit that tipping point yet. So in the meantime, publishers have to try to keep both readers happy!
Tabetha said on 04.22.10 at 11:09 PM • [link]
@Angela James
Amen. I can’t wait for the day when proprietary platforms like the Kindle and nook are obsolete. It really shouldn’t be this hard. lol
Angela James said on 04.22.10 at 11:18 PM • [link]
The nook really isn’t that proprietary. You can use DRM pdb files on it pretty easily. The only device that is truly proprietary as far as DRM files is the Kindle, since it doesn’t handle epub, or DRM mobi.
Brian said on 04.22.10 at 11:27 PM • [link]
If we could just convince all publishers/authors/agents that the Baen/Webscription model (or some version of it) is the way to go there would be many more happy ebookers out there. :) Give us DRM free books at a good price (and buy global ebook rights). Of course Baen buys non-exclusive e-rights and I suppose many pubs wouldn’t do that.
It does certainly get frustrating sometimes when you’re “standing there” with money in hand and they don’t seem to want to take it.
Lizabeth S. Tucker said on 04.22.10 at 11:29 PM • [link]
I must say that the only time that I had a problem with Sony’s Connect bookstore was when I downloaded a book that hadn’t been completely posted. It was missing the last 100 pages of the book in question.
Of course I didn’t notice that until almost a month later when I got around to reading the book. When I went back to download it again, thinking it was a problem on my computer’s end, the same thing happened.
When I contacted them by email (a lot easier then, not so easy now), they responded first with an apology and a request to wait until they could look into the situation. Less than a week later I received a new email telling me to rebuy. Perfect and complete.
Christine Pope said on 04.22.10 at 11:37 PM • [link]
Oh, lord, yes. At least she can get on her web people to fix it ASAP. (Yet another reason why I’m glad I maintain my own site…)
Gwynnyd said on 04.22.10 at 11:40 PM • [link]
Well, technically, I want one format everyone can use. If everyone had to use one standard format, the one they “wanted” would be the one being sold. Standardization: sometimes a good thing? Yes?
And this is exactly why I have not bought an e-reader yet (or bothered to figure out how to do it on my iPhone). When they figure it out, is time enough for me to do it. I’m pleased to read that it is down to only a three-way duke it out.
It’s 2010. An MP3 is an MP3 regardless of what device you use to listen to it. A DVD is a DVD (or a Blu-Ray is a Blu-Ray) no matter who manufactured the player. Email can be sent from any isp to any isp. Browsers on any computer open the same web sites. Text and twitter goes to any phone no matter what carrier. But e-books are stuck in proprietary formats like it’s 1988, which makes them more expensive and harder to edit and produce than they need to be. [headdeskthud]
Lizabeth S. Tucker said on 04.23.10 at 12:33 AM • [link]
I hope that ePub will soon become the norm. I have some books in Pdf, but the formating goes funky when I put it on my Sony and pick a larger size print.
At first the ePub that I read (the latest J. D. Robb) threw me. When I increased it to large print on my PRS-505, it only had 285 or so pages. WTF? I thought I was missing most of the book since most hit the high hundreds or low thousands of pages. I actually went to the last line in the book, then went to a bookstore to compare. Perfect! I now love the fact that the page numbering is the same, that the book looks wonderful on my screen.
one79? Oh, yeah. One format for all 79 publishers I might buy from.
LG said on 04.23.10 at 01:10 AM • [link]
Well, that’s a perfect way of putting it. Not being an ebook convert (still waiting for ebook readers to become more affordable), my experience with piracy is mostly through fansubs of anime. I have a few legal, licensed anime DVDs with subtitling that is just pitiful in comparison to the fandubs that originally convinced me to buy the DVDs legally - companies don’t seem to realize that, by putting out bad products that cost as much or more than good quality fandubs, they’re practically pushing their customers towards pirated stuff. I try to be good and buy legally, but whenever I see a series released by certain companies, I can’t help but wonder if I’ll regret being good.
If I had bought an ebook like that, I’d at the very least contact the store I bought it from. It’s the same thing I’d do if I bought a book that had garbled type or missing pages. Any product that a company sells needs to meet certain basic standards. In the case of a book, whether it is available in print or electronically, it needs to have readable text. Of course, that’s not much comfort if you really want something in ebook form (and not print) and it’s only available in this one nearly unreadable version.
LG said on 04.23.10 at 01:32 AM • [link]
fandub=fansub
Proofreading, must do it more.
them56 - I’ll try to catch them 56 errors next time. Wait, what? Oh, yes, those 56. lol
Marguerite said on 04.23.10 at 10:05 AM • [link]
Many thanks to everyone who answered my questions, particularly @Castiron and @SBSarah for being so thorough.
I suppose I assumed older titles would be scanned in, with the associated errors, and was mostly thinking about newer ones. I bought an e-book earlier this year that was a new title, not even out in paperback yet, and it was awful. There were some few ordinary typos, but then it was though the find-and-replace monster had eaten the proper text. Every instance of “your”, “you’re”, and “You’re” was replaced with “Your”. A boat was “Móred” in place (one of the characters is named Mór). Paragraph breaks were lost, meaning the dialogue seemed to be coming from the wrong character.
I didn’t realise that books go to the printer in a PDF or equivalent, and thought it would be more like LaTeX, or Word, or even an XML document. Converting those to e-book would not be error-free, but would be much easier (I think) than the system currently in place. So, when I thought that was the original digital file format (where such files exist), it seemed extra-strange that e-book and print book results/quality were so different. Now I know better! (The More You Know….!)
I’m not a fan of e-books being priced higher than paperbacks, but I can see the reasoning behind it. However, when it’s a defective product like the experience I had, or Marilyn’s even worse example, it becomes a joke. If you want to charge me as a reader of e-books more because it’s more expensive to make this extra conversion, okay, but make sure it’s at least the equivalent of your print release. I want to give you my money, publishers/resellers, so please don’t make it so difficult and disappointing!
Gary said on 04.23.10 at 10:36 AM • [link]
In all the discussions of the sources of eBooks, nobody mentioned just snatching up a pirated copy - but I assure you it’s been done. I have looked over some pirated material (yes, shame on me), and when a publisher made the book legitimately available, I snatched that up. I don’t at all mind paying for the real thing. Imagine my surprise to find the very same errors in the for-pay book that were in a pirated - scanned and edited - version from years earlier.
I’ll even mention an example. John DeChancie wrote the Starriggers Trilogy way back when. It’s been out of print for years. I found all three volumes in a torrent of Science Fiction Books. I’ve erased nearly all of the books from that download. I try to be law-abiding. But I bought Volume 1 from Baen Books Webscriptions. It had the same errors as the other copy. I later found Volumes 1 and 2 at Fictionwise. Same errors again. Remember, the torrent predated both legit sources, and was evidently the source for the subsequent editions. Nobody has offered Volume 3 yet.
It isn’t that the pirate copy is better. It’s that the pirate copy exists and a legitimate copy doesn’t. And then the publishers pirate the pirates… you have to enjoy the irony.
Angela James said on 04.23.10 at 03:02 PM • [link]
@Gary I’ve suggested to more than a few authors that they look for digital copies of their previously print books on pirating sites, in order to sell the digital rights to publishers but not have to re-type or scan the book in. I think it makes sense to gain some benefit from the pirated version! But I would expect they’d proofread it!
Sarah said on 04.23.10 at 04:03 PM • [link]
The squeaky wheel gets the grease ^-^
Chicklet said on 04.23.10 at 04:04 PM • [link]
Now I’m picturing Illya Kuryakin enforcing ebook formats around the world. *g*
beggar1015 said on 04.23.10 at 08:29 PM • [link]
There’s been many an ebook I’ve downloaded that’s had strange typos such as Marilyn gives example of. If there’s not too many, I can keep on going with the book. But I’ve had a couple of doozies that just completely break down into gobble-de-gook and I’ve not had the patience to finish.
But the worst ebook disaster I’ve had didn’t have to do with nonsense spelling but mixed up chapters. I was reading Irving Wallace’s The Man, which is a pretty long book. Things were going along fine up to the middle of the story. Suddenly I found myself reading about the outcome of a trial and thinking to myself “What trial? When did this happen? Who is this character? Where’d he/she come in?” I then realized that the last chapters of the book had been inserted into the middle, making me find out the dramatic conclusion to the entire novel before I had even gotten to why there was a trial in the first place.
Gary said on 04.24.10 at 08:57 AM • [link]
I couldn’t agree more. New books are easy. They capture the ebook from the publishing file used to print the book, that being the last place editing occurs and errors are removed or introduced.
For older books, those files probably no longer exist. If the gods smile, the author may have kept (and backed up - what are the odds) the last edited version of the manuscript in Word, or Word Perfect, or Wordstar, or Peachtext, or…
Anything more than twenty years old, the pirate copy is probably the best available, and even those need work. Let me rephrase a bit; even the very best of those need proofreading and editing.
Elizabeth said on 04.26.10 at 11:58 PM • [link]
The most disconcerting error I have had en ebook conversion was one book that came without quotation marks. None. Is was a bit surreal—made me think of e. e. cummings. I debated requesting a refund, but it was a favorite author, and so I finished it.
In recent years, Fictionwise has gotten most of my ebook business. I have had great support from them. Twice, a book would be fine to read on my PC, but wouldn’t transfer to my Palm legibly; they gave me a refund. Ditto for those with problem conversions. So I am a happy customer.
It’s sad to think that I’ve become accustomed to reading mistakes like
for
. My English teacher mother and brother read paper books, not ebooks, and perhaps I should not suggest they change. It’d drive them crazy!
Gary said on 04.27.10 at 07:19 AM • [link]
They are responsible for roughly a third of my eLibrary and the majority of my eRomances. I’ve only had to go to support twice, when computer problems wiped out my MSReader registration. They fixed me right up, but it taught me never to permit DRM on my computer.
Were your palm problems from downloading the wrong version of PDB files? Apparently there’s eReader and classic Palm and both use PDB extension.
Care to comment?
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