Bitchin' Blog Posts
Readers and Writers
by SB Sarah | by SB Sarah | July 30, 2007 | Monday at 9:20 pm | 43 CommentsAfter the recent resurgence of a topic that’s nearly two years old - but never out of date because Candy’s entry on that topic of writers vs. reviewers is damntasticly and fabulous - I had a similar question: if you’re a writer of fiction, does it lessen your enjoyment of fiction when you read it? Can writers read and lose themselves in a book or do technical details distract from the enjoyment?
Reading with the intention to review has certainly altered the way I read, from the mechanical element wherein I mark pages or write notes to myself in the margin, to the thought process wherein I am constantly evaluating what is working and what isn’t. Suddenly I’m disappointed by a decision the character made - before reviewing, I’d probably think little of it, but now that I put myself to the task of explaining why I’m disappointed, I pay more attention to the narrative, and the skills used to develop it. But overall, I still dig romance and have a good old time reading it. Thank goodness!
But what happens when you cross the line from reading into crafting the read? Does writing decrease reading enjoyment? I suspect this is true for some and not true for others, obviously, but I have to ask those writers reading the page: has becoming a writer, crossing that line from entertainment recipient to entertainment provider, lessened your enjoyment, or changed the way you read?
Filed: Random Musings
KellyMaher said on 07.30.07 at 09:50 PM • [link]
I’m one of those weird people who can compartmentalize *some* things fairly well. Reading and writing is one of those things. I’ve been writing for about 10 years now, and I’ve never had a problem putting what I know about writing aside to enjoy a good book. A bad book is just a bad book, and you’re going to know that if you’re a writer or not. In the last year, however, I’ve gotten appointed to a major award committee and *that* has impacted my enjoyment as a reader. I’m no longer reading just to read. I’m reading with an eye towards: is this the best example of this type of book for the year? As much as I like the award committee, I’m looking forward to when I come off it so I can shake that nasty little side effect.
Darlene Marshall said on 07.30.07 at 09:57 PM • [link]
Since I started writing I’ve become less accepting of bad writing. On the other hand, I feel like I have a much greater appreciation for quality writing and I savor and value it.
Lauren Dane said on 07.30.07 at 09:58 PM • [link]
You have to turn it off or your internal editor will ruin everything. When I pick up a book, I try very hard not to be a writer but to be a reader. It means I purposely don’t look at passive language or that kind of stuff unless it’s so prevalent it ruins the read.
Sadly, it happens now more than it did before. Something I would have joyfully ignored in the past is so glaring I can’t do it. Usually it’s about author voice more than technical stuff though. Heavy handed POV for instance - drives me nuts.
AnimeJune said on 07.30.07 at 10:05 PM • [link]
I don’t mind with published works - if I’m handed something to look over, review, or proofread, I’m looking for what’s bad, so of course I notice more things. But I’ve never had a problem reading regular, published books - unless of course, they’re terrible.
My biggest problem with reading books for review is the fear that I’ll feel nothing from the book and thus have, er, nothing to write about. It’s happened once or twice. When I’m not reviewing, I don’t mind if a book is “m’eh” - a timewaster and no more.
Sonja said on 07.30.07 at 10:15 PM • [link]
When I was a newbie writer, I noticed that phenomenon more than I do now. I think the trick was realizing rules aren’t really rules, they’re just suggestions, and good authors can break ALL the rules and still make you want to sigh, “damn that was good,” and light a cigarette at the end.
Heather said on 07.30.07 at 10:16 PM • [link]
Nowadays I have a hard time reading fiction without a) comparing it to my writing or b) feeling paranoid that I’m going to unconsciously pull a Viswanathan. It’s almost impossible for me to read other people’s work without analyzing it. I’ve been working on turning off the internal editor, because it’s seriously harshing my reading buzz. :(
I was just discussing this topic with friends, actually; perfect post for me to come out of lurkdom.
Jackie said on 07.30.07 at 10:21 PM • [link]
Gah. I find that I internally edit EVERYTHING I read. Just this morning, I was reading an urban fantasy novel, and I caught myself thinking, “He didn’t need the dialogue tag there.”
UGH. Hate that.
And yeah, it does get in the way of enjoying the book.
On the other hand, sometimes I’ll trudge through a book that doesn’t work for me as entertainment just to appreciate the craft the author used in the book.
Kalen Hughes said on 07.30.07 at 10:21 PM • [link]
I don’t think I’ve changed the way I read. A good book is still a good book, and a bad one still sucks. But then I’ve probably always been harder to please than the average bear.
Aubrey said on 07.30.07 at 10:22 PM • [link]
I had to come out of lurkdom for this post considering it’s a topic my writer friends and I discuss constantly.
As a part of the graduate program I’m in I have to read novels in my genre critically and write reviews on those novels. Because of that I have a really hard time not noticing things that don’t work for me. Headhopping is the one that always stands out like a sore thumb, along with everyone’s favorite TSTL heroine.
There are a handful of authors that are so enjoyable that the internal editor turns off, but those are few and far between. :-)
Nora Roberts said on 07.30.07 at 10:37 PM • [link]
If I’m reading and I fall into the book, that’s all there is. If I’m reading and I’m squirming, and thinking, and rewriting it in my head, it hasn’t sucked me in. And I’m probably going to put it down anyway.
I still fall in a lot, and am always happy to.
Heather said on 07.30.07 at 10:38 PM • [link]
and I caught myself thinking, “He didn’t need the dialogue tag there.â€
Yes! It’s so annoying. I wasn’t nearly so picky in the past. I’m currently fighting it by reading so much fiction that the inner editor can’t keep up and has to stfu. I think it’s starting to work. :D
KellyMaher said on 07.30.07 at 10:38 PM • [link]
Reading through the others’ comments made me think. I wonder if this phenomenon is more of an issue for those with a strong, or at least, coherent, internal editor. I freely admit my internal editor is craptastic (<- why crit partners are soooo good!).
iffygenia said on 07.30.07 at 10:47 PM • [link]
If I’m critiquing instead of enjoying, I try to figure out why: is it the book, or is it my state of mind? If it’s the book, I put it down. If it’s because I’m distracted or grouchy, I take a walk, get a drink, try to clear my head before I start reading again.
iffygenia said on 07.30.07 at 10:49 PM • [link]
That should have been: distracted, grouchy, or haven’t switched from work mode to pleasure mode—probably the most frequent attitude adjustment I have to make. I can change it though, once I’m conscious of it.
Susan W. said on 07.30.07 at 11:07 PM • [link]
I’m less patient with clunky prose and certain storytelling cliches than I used to be, but I don’t know if that’s because I started writing or because I’m a more experienced reader. And there are cliches I *love*, only I call *those* “archetypes” or “universal themes.”
I’m definitely more aware of the “man behind the curtain” than I was before I started writing. It doesn’t keep me from getting sucked in, but part of my mind is busy analyzing storytelling choices and considering what I would’ve done differently. Oddly enough, the more I enjoy a book, the more I question it—maybe because my subconscious is saying, “This is REALLY good. You need to pick it apart and figure out why it works.”
Charlene said on 07.30.07 at 11:08 PM • [link]
I’m coming at this from a different point of view because I write non-fiction professionally. I’m far more likely to notice when writers get facts wrong. Most of the time I can’t get past it, especially if the mistake is based on what ‘we all learned’ in school or on an urban legend that anyone could look up on Snopes. That to me speaks of unforgivably shoddy research and mental laziness.
I’m not saying I don’t read alternative histories or different takes on history. I can accept, for instance, a writer making Richard III out to be less of a villain than Shakespeare did, or creating about a future where Germany won the Second World War. But I can’t forgive a writer who has Henry VIII call himself a divorcé (he annulled the marriages) or that portrays Hitler as a raving monster (part of what made him so very evil was that he appeared normal on the surface).
Charlene said on 07.30.07 at 11:12 PM • [link]
“...creating a future…”
Which is why I usually proofread what I write.
Jepad said on 07.30.07 at 11:43 PM • [link]
This is an interesting topic because one of the comments you often see following “negative” reviews is “writing is really hard and I’d like to see you do better!” I actually found that after joining a writing group I became LESS not more tolerant of poor writing and characterization. Now I notice all sorts of stuff that I’d been happily oblivious of before, like those damn dialogue tags.
Bron said on 07.30.07 at 11:53 PM • [link]
I can definitely still lose myself in a book. If it has likeable characters, a decent plot, and a competent use of language and story structure, my imagination settles down to enjoy the story, its big butt on the inner critic, suffocating it.
When the book ends, though, the inner critic scrambles out and starts inflicting its thoughts - which are usually about character and character development, since it’s been a bit too squashed during the reading to notice the details of language :-)
If a book has clunky language, TSTL characters or other glaring major faults, then I rarely even bother going past the 1st chapter.
zaza said on 07.30.07 at 11:54 PM • [link]
I think that’s a yes for writers who don’t sweat the technical details until nearing their final drafts, and no for those who are all about the technical details. I’m one of the former, thank God, since I wouldn’t ever want to have that natural reader reaction turned off.
When I review, I read normally, maybe think to jot down a note or two. I let it percolate for a while, until some of the bigger picture things start to take shape, i.e., the technical details. Finally, I do my review. ‘Cause, really, a writer can do everything technically right and still write a clunker. It’s all about story, IMO.
Uhm, just a note…if you chose to preview, like I did to see if the blockquote took, you then have to back up to the original page to post ‘cause it thinks you didn’t type in your word verification. Thanks.
Angelia Sparrow said on 07.31.07 at 12:10 AM • [link]
I can still read for enjoyment. But the book must be well done.
I do catch myself editing, and this is usually a sure sign the book is not engaging me. when I’m engaged, I’m lost in the story and can’t be roused.
It’s a bad sign when I’m going, “Another adjective.” or “Hmm, the story doesn’t actually seem to be going anywhere…ooops! Exposition, exposition, plot revelation climax, end! Dude, you made me go through 300 pages for a 3 page payoff?”
Jules Jones said on 07.31.07 at 12:27 AM • [link]
I had to learn to strangle my inner litcrit after doing English lit at university entrance exam level—it took a *long* time before I could get that inner voice to shut up about “ooh, foreshadowing! Shiny!” and the like. So it didn’t become any more of an issue when I started writing myself than it already was.
For a good book, it can increase my pleasure, because I have a better appreciation of how a skilled writer has made something work.
Security word length92—no, can’t think of any commonly used unit of length where that would be a good thing…
R. said on 07.31.07 at 12:39 AM • [link]
“Can writers read and lose themselves in a book or do technical details distract from the enjoyment?”
Yes, when it it’s well written and has engaging, sympathetic characters; and yes, when the writer assumes the reader is less clever or worldly than the writer, and is too stupid to spot on the screw-ups.
I can’t stand it when a character is plainly no more than a plot device - the guy’s on stage ever so briefly, and only to provoke another character’s stupidity or emotional outburst. To me, this is just as irritating as the TSTL characters.
verification word: said55
What *is* that, a word-speed limit?
Sherry Thomas said on 07.31.07 at 02:00 AM • [link]
I find myself mentally taking out adverbs sometimes, which I did not do before I started writing.
But a fabulous book is still a fabulous book. I started Kelley Armstrong’s NO HUMANS INVOLVED this weekend, not only did I not notice any extraneous adverbs, I didn’t even notice time passing and that I still had a ton of homework left to do!
Stephanie said on 07.31.07 at 02:01 AM • [link]
I admit, it’s gotten harder to lose myself in novels, though if the prose is working I’m willing to follow it. But I notice I’m pickier than usual when writing a novel myself and I get angry when writers use major life events as emotional shorthand without exploring the event, be it rape, death, elopement, whatever. That said, when I finish a book that’s divine I feel as if I’ve been gifted. A love of reading is what made me a writer.
Ann Bruce said on 07.31.07 at 02:09 AM • [link]
I’m a reader first and a writer second.
So a mistake here or there doesn’t really bother me. If it’s a grammatical error, I’ll notice and move on. If it’s a plot that makes go, “WTF?!?”, then that author’s off my buy list—or, if the offense is not too great, they get moved to my library list, which allows her a chance to move back to the buy list.
Kaz Augustin said on 07.31.07 at 02:15 AM • [link]
“If you’re a writer of fiction, does it lessen your enjoyment of fiction when you read it?”
Yep. That’s one thing I hate about being a writer and why I hardly touch sci-fi romance; I find myself analysing instead of enjoying. So I immerse myself in historicals instead, which I can’t write for toffee. :)
When I’m writing, I also tend to stay away from any new books written by writers I admire (which are usually the ones someone buys, right?) because I don’t want their style to flavour mine. What this all means ::cue violins:: is that I don’t get that much time to read for pleasure anymore.
veinglory said on 07.31.07 at 03:27 AM • [link]
I went through the awkward analytical reading phase but I got over it. Like with many things I think the tendency to overthink goes away with experience. Once a reader, always a reader.
Wylie Kinson said on 07.31.07 at 03:44 AM • [link]
It’s for this exact reason that I don’t read much of the genre in which I write(romance/erotic romance). I’m either angry at the author/publisher for writing/publishing such ridiculous drivel or angry at myself for not having the talent to write something so beautiful (hello Ms Roberts).
If I really want to lose myself, I pick up something mainstream or literary.
Barbara Samuel said on 07.31.07 at 04:10 AM • [link]
Like a lot of writers, I am such a fanatical reader that I really need to read, and I work hard to find writers who can sweep me into a story. For me, it’s not about technically perfect, either, but about that little something that snares me. Voice. Rhythm. Confidence. I need stories, so I’m pretty willing to go with a writer who is passionate.
That said, I must be snared. Life is too short to read a book I’m not enjoying. If one doesn’t work, another one will. It also seems to help if I vary the reading material—I read all over the place, from non-fiction to young adult to litfic and of course, romances.
bettie said on 07.31.07 at 05:00 AM • [link]
Since I started getting serious about writing, I’ve found so much more to enjoy in the books I love, and so much more to hate in the books I don’t love. Vocabulary, pacing, plotting, the fine details of character development. I’ve been rereading a lot of old favorites, and trying a lot of books I wouldn’t normally have picked up simply because I like the writing style.
When the story sucks me in, I want to examine it to discover why I enjoyed it and what lessons I can learn. And when a story pushes me away, I pick it apart so I’ll know what to avoid.
Long story short: Writing makes me a happy reader.
Darragha said on 07.31.07 at 05:09 AM • [link]
Yes, being a publisher author has changed the way I read. Kind of. I always liked nonfictiony kinds of books. Now I buy and read only nonfiction paperbacks (Eat, Love, Pray for example) and fiction ebooks from authors whose works astound me.
Melissa said on 07.31.07 at 06:15 AM • [link]
I noticed I did read books differently a few months ago. A good book is still a good book for me.
But the ones that make me grit me teeth I know why. The pacing is off, the character is TSTL, there’s a character violation, the character arc wasn’t satisfactory or believable. I can now name the things that make me throw a book against a wall.
But the authors I love (before I started to write) I still do. Now I read them first for enjoyment and second for lessons in craft.
Really your voice is your voice no matter what you are reading and even if you tried to emulate your favorite author I can gurantee you still won’t succeed.
euri said on 07.31.07 at 07:28 AM • [link]
Mostly, I enjoy writing even more - it adds another layer. I can forget about it and enjoy the story, but also enjoy noticing really amazing storytelling (like Alison Roberts) or a beautiful turn of phrase (Like Bronwyn Jamesons, for instance)
OTOH, when I read clunky prose, I just get annoyed at the writer - why choose such a clumsy phrase or ugly word?
cheers
Euri
Lucy-S said on 07.31.07 at 03:43 PM • [link]
I’m a much more critical reader than I used to be, for sure. But I can still sit back and enjoy, say, a Harry Potter book without too many intrusive internal editor thoughts about how the micro writing really ought to be tidied up etc.
The thing that really really prevented me from just enjoying a book was going to Clarion ... for about two years afterward, I had no hope of picking up a book and just reading it for pleasure without picking it apart.
But, OTOH I tend to read writers who have good prose styles. I did recently pick up a triller bestseller (the name escapes me) that I picked up as a freebie at a con and was shocked at how mediocre the mico writing was. It probably had a gripping storyline, but I just couldn’t stick with it long enough to find out.
Jaci Burton said on 07.31.07 at 04:00 PM • [link]
A really good book and I’m lost in it, forgetting the writer part of myself.
A really bad book and I’ll want to grab my red pen. But even before I became a writer I would have just put a really bad book down and not finished it, so it’s just a different kind of reaction now.
Great books capture me and the internal editor is quieted. The happy reader in me takes over. :-)
Marie Brennan said on 07.31.07 at 06:30 PM • [link]
It cuts both ways. When I read something that’s done well, my enjoyment of the plot/character moment/whatever is heightened by my technical appreciation of how it was done. But my tolerance for bad writing has dropped off precipitously; I spend the entire book (assuming I don’t just put it down) thinking about how I would have done it better. <g>
It depends on what’s being done badly, though. I can get past bad prose if there’s a good enough plot and characters; the reverse is not also true.
--E said on 07.31.07 at 08:51 PM • [link]
Being a writer definitely affects my reaction when I read.
Or, more specifically, being a writer who thinks about the craft of writing a lot. Not all writers spend a lot of time consciously breaking down aspects of the craft and analyzing the hell out of it.
When a book has “invisible” craft—that is, I can’t see the author pulling the strings—it’s a wonderful thing. This is also a very, very rare thing, usually only occurring for sections of a book. E.g. the last 250 pages of the latest Harry Potter novel flew by seamlessly. I’m sure they’re not perfect, but they were working so well that I didn’t notice flaws, or see Rowling managing the characters and plot (unlike in the first 500 pages, where I could see it all).
This bothers me and sometimes I wish I could just enjoy books again the way I did when I was a teenager.
--E said on 07.31.07 at 08:59 PM • [link]
Jules Jones:
A “line” is .0833 of an inch. 92 of them is a very respectable length.
(What’s a “line”? No idea. But it came up on the converter website I like.)
Elegist said on 07.31.07 at 11:12 PM • [link]
As a (currently still unpublished, dammit) writer, I’ve noticed a big difference in the way I read now as compared to when I was “merely” a book enthusiast.
I can safely say that I now have a really hard time taking the author’s word for whatever s/he’s saying. That’s not a great way of putting it, but the general gist of it is that I know how hard it is to pick the right phrase or the perfect word to characterize my, er, characters, and so I’m pretty good at recognsing moments in books where the phrasing or characterization isn’t *quite* right. And then I spend five minutes lamely trying to figure out how I would have fixed it. It’s also easier for me to see the nuts-and-bolts of the story behind the pretty facade. Every cliche and deus ex machina sticks out like woah. This is good in a way, though, because now when I dislike a book I can recognise *what* I disliked about it (and then promise myself to avoid it in the future :P).
I think overall being a writer, and consequently paying more attention to what’s *actually* written, not just what I’m mentally supplying the plot, has actually made reading less fun. I can’t even remember the time I last read a fiction book; I seem to always get frustrated by some feature of them (I write fiction). I’m really loving non-fiction, though, and I used to hate it!
Elegist said on 07.31.07 at 11:15 PM • [link]
One more thing: being over-focused on the actual writing doesn’t clue me in on *only* the bad parts, which I should have mentioned. Sometimes I come across a particularly lovely turn of a phrase and just *can’t get over it*. Seriously, there’s nothing quite like the rush of YES YES THAT’S IT THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN! THAT’S JUST WHAT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED!, even when it’s by proxy.
Wry Hag said on 08.01.07 at 06:56 AM • [link]
I generally don’t read the kind of fiction I write. When I’ve tried, I have in fact found myself “red penning” my way through it. And, yup, that does tend to suspend the suspension-of-disbelief process.
Even the big guns’ output affects me this way. (OY, you can’t begin to imagine how I reacted to a Sherrilyn Kenyon novella I read in the past year. I actually sat down and wrote a review of it—not for publication, mind you, but for my own steam-release!)
So I read either nonfiction—history and theology, mostly—or fiction that’s largely unrelated to what I’m producing. H.P. Lovecraft. Ian McEwan. Poetry. But nothing smacking of contemporary romance.
Grace Draven said on 08.01.07 at 10:21 PM • [link]
For the most part, yes, it ruins the book for me. I have a hard time turning the internal editor off. It’s hard to do when I’m very focused on trying to make my work the best it can be, and the internal editor is in overdrive almost 24/7.
Stylistic issues bother me more than grammatical ones these days. I’ve learned to tell when a writer judiciously breaks the rules, and when they just don’t know them. And there are books I’ve read where the writer’s voice and prose style are brilliant, but she was cursed with a sucktastic copy editor.
All that being said, when I do come across a book so well written I can turn off the internal editor, I am completely blown away. These I appreciate far more than before I started writing.
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