Smart Bitches, Trashy Books

Props to the Bitches for getting the word out on this and giving authors a way to fight it!

Well, I guess that just proves that piracy exists for just about everything.

My personal opinion is that if someone has downloaded something, they probably wouldn’t have shelled out the money for it had their illegal download not been available… I can see where it’s alarming, but I don’t think it does as much harm as people think.

Then again, I’ve never made anything that someone could pirate… Heh.

I’ve found several of mine via Google Alerts—I recommend that as well.

You know, as hurtful and frustrating this must be for the authors, there is a silver lining to this sometimes.  Authors may not like this, and the music industry certainly hasn’t, but sometimes pirated stuff on the web is actually boosting sales.  Apparently that’s what happened when they started playing hit singles on the radio after all.  There have been times when I’ve gotten music from friends for free and liked it more than I expected to and ended up buying some for myself outright.  Granted, I don’t have the sales statistics to correctly guarantee that this is what everybody does, but I know I’ve done it before, and friends of mine have too.

I got the Google Alert suggestion via the AbsoluteWrite.com newsletter yesterday. Glad to see that it actually works!

..and cheapass readers everywhere are itching to figure out a way to ask for the url without seeming too cheapassy….

Cheapass disclaimer:NOT ME!!! I don’t care for e books, its too hard to lay on the sofa with my desktop and bowl of m&ms to read.

On the upside this reminded me that I wanted to download some ebooks, so someone made some legal money today.

You know, as hurtful and frustrating this must be for the authors, there is a silver lining to this sometimes.  Authors may not like this, and the music industry certainly hasn’t, but sometimes pirated stuff on the web is actually boosting sales.

Taken from a post made 2 hours ago on a file sharing site:

I have many many and more many like these. Lit and Adobe. Ellora, Loose Id, Samhain etc….Foolish me have been buying these for 3 years not knowing about sites like this.

Earlier this week I emailed an author whose book released from NY in print on Tuesday. It had been on the file sharing site since the beginning of February. A whole month before anyone in the general public had a chance to buy it. That pretty much sucks.

This week, I’ve seen several of the February 5th NY releases show up on file sharing sites.

Frustrating stuff. This is actually the topic of the RTB post I didn’t write when it was my turn last week. It’s just too overwhelming for me.

I love google alert.  It’s useful to find pirated copies of your books AND also to find reviews of your books.

I found three reviews for “Hellbaby” that I didn’t even know about!

Minx

Angela - You’ve brought up an interesting point. I’d really like to know how the new books are getting out before public release dates. Someone at the publishing house? The printers? The shippers? Reviewers who received advance copies for marketing purposes? I seem to remember there was quite a row over early release of the last Rowling book. How frustrating that must be for the authors! And piracy in all its forms is a bad thing, IMHO.

Well, I hope that at least the publicity around it ends up bringing more attention and more readers to the people affected!

I hate the pirate sites. While I’m thankful I’m obviously too small to be pirated, it’s still theft from every person in the industry who has worked on any given title as their legal job. I also use the Alerts, and have for well over a year.

There will always be people who want stuff for free, and don’t care who they hurt, the money they take out of some author’s hand, or the editor, or the agent… It’s an endless line of peole who benefit from a single author’s work.  Big names may not care over all when they make high five to six digit incomes, but when you’re earning a tank of gas in a year, yeah, pirating sucks.

The analogy is an example… I’m stuffy and in need of serious sinus killers. *sigh*

Please be VERY careful on these sites if you decide to visit them. Like most sites run by criminals, they are full of very nasty viruses. You can still check them through Google or another search engine, but if you decide to log on, please make sure you’re safe.

Hi Ladies,

I’m the community manager at eHarlequin.com and I just wanted to say thanks, it’s nice to know you have our backs.  Our legal team is aware of the situation, but unfortunately these takedowns can take up to six weeks to finalize. What’s really disheartening is the volume of downloads, in some cases in excess of 250 for some titles!!! 

Jayne

Funny that people will read the bootleg copies that devotedly.  Aside from the fact that it is a stolen copy of something that I generally want the real version of, the grammar and spelling is usually atrocious on bootlegs.  I saw a bootleg ebook once that had the author’s name misspelled multiple times.

and rebyj- pda’s work quite well with m and m’s…the only thing is it creates a bit more eyestrain (to me), and i worry about something happening to my computer and losing all of those precious books i purchased.  But then, if I weren’t so lazy, I could probably make cd copies of the e-books I purchased. 

And all of those cheapskates are missing out on the absolutely free and legal e-books to download- just off the top of my head, project gutenberg and baen books has a bunch for free.  And then for those people who don’t live on a rock in the middle of nowhere (like me- I deal with this by packing ten paperbacks per school term in my suitcase, not bootlegging), there’s this thing called the library. 

my word: without67- ur darn right…god i miss borders down here…

sometimes pirated stuff on the web is actually boosting sales.  Apparently that’s what happened when they started playing hit singles on the radio after all.

Um those singles are just that . . .one or two songs out of about 10 or 12.  And when they’re playing on the radio, you can’t listen at will, you’re at the mercy of the DJ.  So yeah, you hear a song on the radio and go “I want more of that” and run out and buy the CD.  Not really comparable to getting the whole CD for free.

What would be comparable would be a single chapter.

And aren’t excerpts—up in authors’ websites, or through amazon preview, etc—exactly that? For free?

Free promotional material is designed to whet the appetite and “boost sales”—while piracy IS stealing, period.

Not that I have any strong opinions on the matter or anything.

Just go to the local library and you can read the real thing for free!

Although this file-sharing forum started out using the Mills & Boon name, the “sharing” extends to all kinds of romance and publishers. Some of my books on there have never been published as eBooks so I guess they’ve been scanned.

What’s really getting under my skin is the effusive praise for sharing thousands of titles (you are all so generous, thank you, thank you!) and the requests for new and unreleased books. As soon as someone acquires one, up it goes. 

Oh, and they’ve made plans already for saving all the files for when this site is shutdown. They’ll just relaunch somewhere else, under another name, and on it goes. Arrgghh.

~Big names may not care~

Oh, yes, we do.

When someone steals from me, I care. My agent cares because it’s stealing from her. My publisher cares for the same reason.

What I don’t care about is the idea that those who pirate or access pirated books wouldn’t buy it anyway so it doesn’t effect sales. Even if I agreed that was true, so what? Somebody’s still stealing from me.

Can’t pay as an excuse or a reason? Bullshit.

Being poor or strapped for cash doesn’t mean you’re entitled to my work for free any more than you’re entitled to those pretty earrings in the department store unless you pay for them first.

Libraries serve a fine purpose. Use them.

On the “too small to be pirated” issue—small press author I may be, but going by the torrent feeds, there are people out there who like my stuff enough to pirate it. Which is why I get peeved by O’Reilly’s attitude of “you authors who are pirated should be *grateful* you’re being pirated”. I understand the point he’s making, but he’s got a rather unrealistic view of how far down the pecking order you have to be before you don’t get pirated.

Scalzi’s a lot more realistic. There are those who can’t afford to pay, and there are those who can afford to pay but choose not to. I think he’s far too soft on the latter, and yes, the former may well turn into paying customers when they can afford to do so.

All I can offer is proof…

Back in the early days of Audiogalaxy it was an elaborate music pirate site.

Probably one of the best ever created.

When I had complete access to all that music my cd collection grew by at least 1/3. We are talking hundreds of CDs and BIG MONEY for the music industry and the unknown artists I discovered was made off my purchases.

They closed Audiogalaxy down and I really just don’t buy unknown artists anymore.

So people worrying about this really need to think the whole thing through. It is not the same as shoplifting and it is proven it actually benefits new artists. In fact some very intelligent artists have put things on torrent just to get noticed.

~It is not the same as shoplifting~

Here’s why I think it is.

This is my work. I’ve created it, and it’s my livelihood. To make this living, I sell the work—though an agent who gets a commission on the sale—to a publisher. The publisher sells the book to bookstores and other venues. I get a portion of those sales, the publisher gets a portion, and the bookstore gets a portion. This is how we all make our living.

If someone comes into the bookstore, and can’t afford to pay, doesn’t want to pay, or thinks: I wonder if I’d like this book, I want to try it and see—and walks out with the book without paying, it’s shoplifting. This person took a product and didn’t pay for it.

A book in e-form is still the work, still my livelihood, and goes through the same process of sale and publication, just not on paper. Someone takes that book, that product, and doesn’t pay for it stole from me.

Want a free sample? Want to see if my work might be to your taste? Go to my website. I’m happy for you to sample a chapter. I’m equally happy for you to go to the library and borrow the book to check it out. I’m delighted if you go to the used bookstore and find one someone else bought then turned in, and only have to pay a buck for it.

If a new writer, an established writer, whatever, opts to offer their work on a piracy site in hopes to gain new readers, get exposure, that’s their right. It may work, and congratulations if so.

But if I don’t opt to do so, nobody has the right to do it for me. If they do, they’re stealing.

Well Nora, that might also be the same argument that could be used to shut down libraries.

You are not taking human behavior into account and being overly simplistic in the same way the Music Industry is.

Metallica back in 2000 got itself involved in all this mess about piracy over Napster at the time and basically came out looking like greedy assholes. In 2007, Metallica was named #17 on Blender magazine’s list of “biggest wusses in rock” for their public relations fiasco.

All I can say is after Audiogalaxy was shut down I just stopped really trying to hunt down new music.

So I am not arguing about your legal rights to litigate as you wish, I am saying this is absolutely the case of Penny-Wise, Pound-Foolish and that looking like assholes will turn people off to an artist as well as an industry just like I was turned off.

I took my money and did not spend it on music. Like many others did.

~Well Nora, that might also be the same argument that could be used to shut down libraries.~

How? Libraries buy the books. Libraries are legal.

I don’t know about the music industry, or what Metallica did or didn’t do—but I can’t blame them if they came out against the piracy.

How is it looking like an asshole to want to be paid for my work, and to object to an illegal activity? Why are we considered greedy to expect readers to pay for our work?

You should Nora, I’d go and read up on it before stepping into this mess thinking the whole thing is just so simple.

The argument you make seems legit just like it did to Metallica and the RIAA etc etc etc.

But… When have people ever been reasonable? You have heard the Music Industry is in trouble right?

John Scalzi makes some really good consumer behavior/street smart points so I won’t go over it again.

The fact is for me one pirated copy of a song might was making several sales on albums. That’s how it worked for me back in the day.

I don’t think people have changed that much.

I’m confused. Plagiarism is ohmigodbad! and ethically wrong but stealing an entire body of work instead of paying for it is…just the breaks and something authors and publishers should just accept as one of those things?

But… When have people ever been reasonable?

Truer words have never been spoken.

~You should Nora, I’d go and read up on it before stepping into this mess thinking the whole thing is just so simple.~

Teddy, I don’t think you’re understanding me. To me it is simple. Piracy is illegal.

I work, and work hard to produce a book—a lot of other people work hard to publish and distribute that book. We all deserve to be paid.

If some think this makes me greedy or short-sighted, then that’s what they’ll have to think.

I have been lurking in these forums for a while.  I would like to add something to this discussion:  I don’t think I saw anyone mention the fact that in the mind of many readers who purchase digital copies of a book, they strongly believe that it is their right to do with their digital copy as they please.  This means a number of them do visit those sites and “swap” NOT pirate, books with other readers that also purchase digital copies.  As Teddy said, it is not as simple as “they are stealing from me”.

Additionally, in the case of music, it was Napster who put the whole issue of music swapping on the headlines, and ended up with the mother of all lawsuits, but music swapping had been happening online for a long time before they came into the picture.  The only thing Napster did was create a simple and viable peer-to-peer file sharing program.  Before that, people were using FTP, instant messenger software, emails, etc. to do so.  The MP3 compressed file format made it super easy, even in slow connections, to music swap.  I used to belong to the Napster community back in 1998, but when the lawsuits exploded, I stopped.  I now pay for a subscription music service.  I use Rhapsody to Go.

I don’t know if there would be a solution to book swapping, though.  As I said, many readers who paid for their digital copies of books strongly feel that the book is theirs to do as they please, and if they want to swap it is their option.  They don’t consider it that different from what some readers do when they sell their second hand books in eBay or half.com.

Personally, I do purchase all my books.  And if I don’t have the money at one given time, I just make a list and get it when the budget allows.  However, I have a decent paying job, I don’t know where would I stand if I were deprived of reading material for not having the financial means to get it or didn’t have a library available.

I don’t know if there would be a solution to book swapping, though.  As I said, many readers who paid for their digital copies of books strongly feel that the book is theirs to do as they please, and if they want to swap it is their option.  They don’t consider it that different from what some readers do when they sell their second hand books in eBay or half.com.

I had a long conversation with Jane of Dear Author about this earlier in the week, ironically enough. I’m actually fine with the issue of swapping with one or two people, I brought up the same question you raised, about people feeling they “own” the book and should do with it what they like. I an sympathize with that because like Jane says, buying and owning an ebook can be a little draconian—can’t return it, sell it or swap it. I own thousands of ebooks, trust me, I feel that pain.

But how do you control who you’re swapping it to? How do you know the person you swap with isn’t going to swap to someone who’s going to post it on a file sharing site?

Unfortunately, sharing digital files can’t be compared to paper copies, because of the speed at which they can be shared. You don’t have to have read it first to share it, you can buy it and send it to 100 of your friends, or in the case of file sharing, thousands of complete strangers. To do the same with a paper copy, would take months, probably years.

I know some people think I’m exaggerating this, but there was a book of ours shared on a site. I found it after it had only been posted for TWO HOURS. In that two hours, almost 100 copies had been downloaded. The book had only been available for sale for a very short time and that 100 copies equaled 10% of the sales to date. It also equaled almost $250 out of the author’s pocket. Can any of you say you’d be okay with someone walking up to you on the street and stealing the money you had earmarked for your car bill, your insurance, heat, electric or groceries for the month?

It’s really not a victimless crime, unfortunately.

What ever happened to the idea that if you can’t afford something, you did without?
But these people can afford a computer with sufficient memory and the electricity to run it and all that, so I don’t buy the poverty excuse.

I don’t think you’re understanding me.

Oh I do, but this is very much like arguing for teaching only abstinence in school because teenage sex is wrong and immoral.

You are not going to stop that behavior anymore than you or anyone else can stop file sharing.

I am more impressed by people who are smart enough to leverage even bad consumer behavior in a mutually beneficial rational way and make them into opportunities for sales, public education, and eventually profit.

I don’t have the actual statistics handy, but libraries purchase a significant percentage of all books sold.  And they don’t purchase just one book.  They purchase multiple copies of a title, and they replace popular things when they wear out.

So, if people want to go to the library and get stuff for free?  For people that have No money, there is a perfectly good system in place for them to get all the free reading they want.  Writers get paid.  Everybody’s happy. 

And personally, I’m not spending time agonzing over UBS’s and garage sales, because somebody bought those books at least once, and they are only going to sell the one copy they bought.

There are also authors giving books and ebooks away for free.  So it’s not like we are seeking, as an industry, to totally deny access.  We just want control over what goes out.

But the pirate site I visited yesterday, looking for my stuff (which was not there, thank God), had Paypal donation buttons next to the download lists.  These people aren’t sharing with the poor out of the goodness of their hearts.  They are trying to make a fast buck off someone else’s work.  And they are able to make mulitple sales off a thing they only bought once.

It may not seem like a big deal, or a lot of money.  But most writers don’t make that much.  We’re not trying to be assholes about this.  But doing some quick math:

I make something like 40 cents on a paperback.  If someone steals 250 copies, that’s 100 dollars.  So, kind of like taking a week’s worth of groceries out of the mouths of my kids.

Will we survive?  Yeah.  The freezer’s full.  But we’re not talking about loose change. 

The whole ‘wusses and assholes’ arguement is based on the idea that the big guys are making money, and screwing the poor.  But the poor can get their reading free and legal.  And a lot of writers who are getting ripped off have writing incomes near or below poverty level.

And the bottom line is, stealing is still stealing.

The whole ‘wusses and assholes’ arguement is based on the idea that the big guys are making money, and screwing the poor.

This was an observation based on several articles I have read on the whole deal not actually an argument.

The magazine poll of it’s readers and the actions that Metallica took are all facts as are what the public’s reaction was to them.

~Oh I do, but this is very much like arguing for teaching only abstinence in school because teenage sex is wrong and immoral.!

No, it’s not. Sex, even for teenagers, isn’t against the law. Morals and ethics aside, piracy is illegal.

Angela illustrated a very good reason why.

Can’t afford the book? Don’t buy the book. You are not allowed to take it just because you want it.

Okay, Teddy, just for fun, let’s pretend and make this more personal for you, because I’m trying to understand your position.

Let’s say you’re writing a book ;), and that book is contracted by us for publication. And it’s published on February 10th (tomorrow).  Every week, I do a search of a few file sharing sites I know of and kill the links to our books that I see. On Tuesday, after the book has only been available for purchase for a couple days, I find your book on one or more of those file sharing sites (since once it hits one it usually hits the other). People have only been able to buy your book for two days, but you’re telling me you’d want me to ignore any links to the free downloads of your book and let the good people who hang at those sites have it, because otherwise you’d look like an asshole for objecting to file sharing? Is that right?

When fans love your work they tend to want to share their enthusiasm and in doing so usually share their books or their albums.

When you start labeling fans “thieves” you lose them.

Ms. Roberts, one of the pirated sites I’ve seen has been diligently sharing your work, and the work of other authors, with more than 2,000 people in its community ring.

Scalzi’s remarks have a particular logic to them, but when I’ve read commentary on this piracy site like “Oh, thank you so much!  Now that I can get these for free, I can spend my money on other cool stuff,” it makes me less inclined to believe this is the starving poor too destitute to buy a book or spend the gas to drive to the library and check the title out for free.

Hit “send” too soon.

I have to agree with Nora and Angela James.  This is thievery.  I can sell a book to a USB for a few pennies on the dollar.  They in turn may sell it for half the cover price to another person, who might in turn loan it to two or three people.  But when you have a site downloading an author’s entire library of works for 2,000 people to enjoy, that can be immensely damaging, especially to new authors.  I wouldn’t call these fans as much as freeloaders.

Angela,

I got a free book 6 months ago.
In this case it was from Loose Id.
The author and the publisher did not see any money for me getting that book.

I took that book and gave it to the manager of A Different Light.

It’s now one of his best sellers and he wants to do a signing.

I recently took another book I bought and shared it with some friends at The Eagle Tavern and now they are hooked and are buying that authors work and have demanded I bring that author by when she comes into town. So they are fans.

You are stating black and white and I am pointing out the gray area that is all.

~When you start labeling fans “thieves” you lose them.~

If they’re pirating my books, they’re thieves. And I’m happy to lose them.

I’m delighted if a reader loves my work, but I also demand the creator of the work be respected. I spend hours every day at the keyboard. I sweat out a book. And I’m seriously not going to say it’s okay for anyone to feel entitled to take that work illegally just because they want to share. Or because they don’t have the money this week—or want to spend it elsewhere.

~Ms. Roberts, one of the pirated sites I’ve seen has been diligently sharing your work, and the work of other authors, with more than 2,000 people in its community ring.~

Would you e-mail me the site in case my publisher is unaware of it, and not already dealing with the problem?

Teddy, we’re not talking about giving a book to a friend to read. We’re talking about sharing a book, on a pirate site, for thousands of people to download. Those two things aren’t just apples and oranges, they don’t even live on the same planet.

Teddy, you’re talking about a promotional tool in the first instance, and a book you bought in the second.

In neither case is it piracy.

Do you really think the thousands of copies of my books that are pirated every year are taken by people who want to promote me? Or share their pleasure in my books with a couple of friends?

My kids download films from a site that I disapprove of wholeheartedly.  But we always wind up buying the DVD of the pirated stuff because they want a “clean” copy.  If they could buy a clean copy right after they see the movie in the theater, I doubt they would go to the intense hassle of downloading.

But the way I see the film industry—no DVD until the movie theaters make their dime.  And so they wind up pirated.

Luckily, I am no longer poor, so my family can afford to go to the theater and have the high speed computer to download the film right after the kids see it.  And then buy the DVD.

And I suspect I was equally poor as John Scalzi when I was a kid, but I work at knocking the chip off my own shoulder over it.

We used the library until I started working when I was 12, then I could afford to buy my very own books.

My MD BFF and I are echoing each other.

These are the opinions, the stands, of a writer and a publisher.

Piracy harms us.

Nora Roberts said: “Would you e-mail me the site in case my publisher is unaware of it, and not already dealing with the problem?”

Absolutely.  e-mail is on the way now.

I think this will not go away by simply closing down a few web sites.

I think it is best to find a creative way to use it as marketing tool or provide something better to control it with.

“promotional tool”

I prefer “promotional pig” but OK.

Maybe it won’t go away, but that doesn’t mean we should accept or ignore the problem.

Promotion? Again, that’s not what it’s about.

Some of these sites—that I know of—have many of my titles listed. But let’s say ten titles. The site offers ten of my titles—and we’ll stick with paperbacks at $7.99 retail—to it’s ring of 2,000.

I’d get about $1.20 per book in royalties. Times ten, we’ve got $10.20. If half of the people on the ring take those ten titles, that’s $10,020 stolen from me.

Believe me when I say piracy costs me much more than this, every year. It’s also costing my agent her commission on that, and my publisher their payment.

It’s wrong.

I’d just like to say something about the comment that if you call fans who steal an artist’s work “thieves,” that you’ll alienate the fans. Personally, as a fan who pays for various artist’s work, I’m not alienated by an artist calling a thief a thief.The rest of the “fans” who want something for nothing should suck it up.

My spaminator: took24
No, I swear I didn’t take any!

we’re not talking about giving a book to a friend to read

Well, I still think cracking down on something the wrong way can hurt you. Metallica was seen as attacking their fans and they paid for that.

I am very diligent with my ebooks and no I do not hand them around or anything. Even if I get a free review copy I still go and purchase the ebook when it comes out. I go so far as to buy the paperbacks when they get published because I do want the epublisher and author to get their money and create more.

So I am all about the artist getting paid but I also really caution people when getting all upset about pirating to think it through and be clear who and what they are talking about.

Even back in the day I got pirated music I still went and bought the CDs. I think most people who respect the artist do.

My kids download films from a site that I disapprove of wholeheartedly.  But we always wind up buying the DVD of the pirated stuff because they want a “clean” copy.

IMO, a movie is something people usually watch over and over again, so it’s nice to own a version where you don’t see the occasional head pop up as someone goes to the washroom.

With a book, people rarely—or at least I rarely—reread it, unless it’s an author I worship, like SEP.  So, these people are probably reading the book once, then moving onto the next pirated book.

Bernita said,

What ever happened to the idea that if you can’t afford something, you did without?

Exactly.

If you are only a ‘fan’ when you can get it for free, then you are not so much a fan as you are a free loader.

Free stuff given willingly by the publisher/writer is an effective marketing tool/strategy. Word of mouth (i.e., the lending of one copy to a few friends to introduce them to a new to them writer), also extremely effective.

But I don’t see how file sharing, and more so to the degree people in the know (Angela James, for example) have pointed out, can be NOT considered stealing.

Is it going to happen? Yes, along with many other petty crimes. Does that make it any less illegal or any less wrong? No.

I see the gray in many areas of human behaviour, but stealing is stealing, and therefore wrong, period, no matter how often it happens.

Perhaps I’m too old fashioned in my views on this, but if so, I don’t care.

I see it as stealing.
I’m in the group of people who have a long list of books that I have in my purse that I have to check off slowly as I can afford to get them. Some new, some used. I don’t use a library because I keep what I read and never wanna give it back if I check it out lol. Yes, I am a book ho.

Don’t anyone shoot me or anything but do any of you think that the public perception of the value of e-books affect this at all?

I mean, I have bought one e-book and I won one in a contest somewhere.. I remember thinking sarcastically ” whoopee I won an ebook” and rolling my eyes. Many people I know just don’t put any value on them and if they download them free somewhere they don’t think anymore of it than clicking on a blog like this one and reading it.

Yes , its theivery. Yes, it is a crime. my point is maybe there needs to be some education of the public done (like this discussion) showing how this affects authors and the industry, but instead of an informal discussion, a well crafted public service type professional message from authors to the public.

Also, another question. Do publishers that focus on e-book sales go under faster than traditional publishers? Have any of the closings been directly linked to illegal downloads and file sharing?

I honestly can see how this is a huge problem but again, I think a big part of the unenlightened public just do not put much value on e-books.

Anybody who’s participating in the piracy of ebooks is going to try to twist anything (s)he can in order to justify it. Whatever.

If you’re so poor you can afford neither 1) a mass market paperback at Walmart nor 2) the gas to get to the library, chances are you don’t have the computer set-up, broadband connection and ebook reader or ink that make reading digital copies practical and/or enjoyable. That’s a pretty lame excuse.

And downloading a pirated copy of Theft for Dummies from a file sharing site is absolutely the same thing as walking out of Borders with a copy of Theft for Dummies shoved down your pants.

Well, I so seldom disagree with Teddy that I’m (almost) upset with myself when I should be upset with Teddy… but talk about over-simplifying. Just because you can’t stop a behavior doesn’t mean it’s right or that it should be condoned.

I also hesitate to get between Nora Roberts and any words she types (major suck-up there) but you’re talking about her dime Teddy, not yours.

Take all the books you’ve written directly to a free download site and give them away.

I can’t afford a lot of books I want, so (yes, I’m suppose to say I do without—- I don’t)I buy them anyway and do without that new purse or something else. I don’t steal them.

When I was younger and truly didn’t have extra money I went to the library. And for those people too broke for book-buying, then how do they pay for Internet service?

And to compare teenage sexual behavior with book thievery, well that’s just a silly thing to say.

Is downloading copyrighted materials illegal? Yes, of course.

Is it 100% wrong, 100% of the time? Many comments have brought up how gray an area this can be. I’m on the glass half-full side. If Internet downloads cause someone to then go out and spend their money, I think the ends can justify the means if only a little bit. It’s still wrong, but some good came of it.

There are people on both sides of the fence here, and we could argue back and forth about the matter until the world ends without changing anyone’s mind.

I’m not trying to support either argument, though I’ll say that I would be surprised if Internet downloads ruined someone completely. I would also like to suggest, without meaning offense, that they inspect their history to see if they’ve ever downloaded a song from a peer-to-peer network or something similar. Defense of the law is one thing, hypocrisy is another.

As a side-note, I’m a little surprised at some of the comments being peppered with name-calling, foul language, and even a little propaganda…

Anyway, I’ll crawl back into my hole now.

I fully understand the point Teddy is trying to make, but that is because I was involved with the Napster community when the lawsuits brought forth by the RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America) and Metallica (among others) happened.

Metallica was one of the few artists that actually sued Napster.  I think this is mostly they could actually afford it, as they are multimillionaires.  Among the arguments presented against the RIAA and Metallica: fans are sharing, they are not actually “stealing”.  That is why Metallica ended up with a rather poor public image.  The fans that actually were swapping without financial gain or other self-serving interests were in the thousands, they took it hard. 

The problem is that there were, indeed, people taking advantage of what was called back then the “Napster revolution”, and they were actually exploiting artists work by selling it or obtaining some sort of financial gain in the process… financial gain without paying any rights back to the artist, or the studio, etc.  In the end, those were the ones that brought down peer-to-peer file sharing.  Realistically speaking, there is no way to make a distinction between a mere swap and an actual thief selling the files for profit without paying rights back to rightful owners. Of course, peer to peer file swapping still exists, the scope of the ruling against Napster and other peer-to-peer file sharing options was limited, international law and all that.

Another well known argument in favor of Napster is what Teddy indicated: the overall sales of CDs actually increased during the time Napster was still around.  However, that definitely wasn’t enough to justify allowing free peer-to-peer file sharing to continue without any sort of control.  And in the end, that is what this is all about: the control of the actual work.  This is all material that has rightful owners.

The current model of online music downloads is a result of all the issues brought forth during these lawsuits. 

Maybe someone, someday, will come up with a similar model for digital copies of books.  I’ve seen it for comics (Marvel offers all their comics online via a subscription service, for example).  I don’t know if that would work with books though.  I like the convenience of being able to download my ebooks to my Pocket PC, can’t do that with the comics. 

Another issue that worries me is the “secure” format in ebooks.  I mostly purchase mine directly from the epublishers.  Even knowing the risks they offer them in a convenient way to their customers.  I just hope they don’t all end up deciding to use secure formats.  I am concerned about that whenever I read about yet another site exploiting other people’s work.  It only takes a few people to spoil everything.  I always have big issues with “secure” formtas, and if it all comes down to that, I am afraid I will never buy ebooks again.  I read ebooks for convenience, not to have a fight with the software every time I try to open my purchased ebook, or figure out how many more times can I open the book, or about the license, etc.

An author emailed me saying the minute she found her books on a newsgroups site being shared “woo hoo I’m big time now, they are pirating my books.”.

Now that’s just too real. LOL!

I’m concerned that if I agree with Teddy Pig (which I do), I will no longer be considered a “fan” and will be labeled a “thief.”  People are greedy and generous; the entire gamut and every combination in between.

If someone buys 500 books and downloads 10, are they a thief?
If someone downloads 500 books and buys 10, are they a thief?

Taking an absolute stance on a very complex issue can cause a disconnect between parties.  How this disconnect is handled can affect how individuals react: support, understanding, openness, neutrality, indifference, apathy, alienation, animosity.

I think artists want support and understanding, and do not want to alienate or antagonize their fans.  I imagine fans want to be treated the same.  I feel the extreme on either end of the spectrum draws a line in the sand over an issue that can’t be fought and won, successfully, by either side.

Whoa, everything DOES come down to moderation.  Damn you experts for always being right.

If Internet downloads cause someone to then go out and spend their money, I think the ends can justify the means if only a little bit. It’s still wrong, but some good came of it.

I think that if an author wants to attract attention to her work by offering a free download, that’s up to her. (like that great Cinderella story that helped me decide to buy “Like a Thief in the Night”) It’s not the potential customer’s right to steal something just because he/she might like it enough to go back and buy something else by that author.  And as someone has already pointed out, downloading a track from a CD is not an apt comparison to downloading an entire book.

I’ve found dozens of my books on these sites since RWA sent out the alert yesterday. And I’ve already written to Harlequin and asked them to fight to have them taken down.

In one case, two of my older titles—which had never been released as eBooks—had been digitally scanned & distributed as .pdf files. And more than 2500 copies of those two books have been downloaded on just that ONE site (and they’re posted at at least 3 more than I found.) So anybody who thinks we’re talking about just a few copies is wrong.

When you consider just how far sales have fallen, that 2500 represents about 10% of the US retail sales on a typical category book (Blaze, anyway.) I don’t belong to a church and I sure as heck don’t want to tithe 10% of my limited income to strangers out there in cyberland.

~If someone buys 500 books and downloads 10, are they a thief?
If someone downloads 500 books and buys 10, are they a thief?~

How can downloading ONE book from a piracy site be okay? I don’t care how many were bought by legal means. Why is okay to cheat the artist, ever or at all?

How is it not stealing to take something without paying for it?

I wonder why it’s considered alienating fans to object to having your work taken without compensation.

If it’s okay one time, or ten times, why isn’t okay all the time? Or most of the time? Or whenever the individual doing the download feels like it?

I guess I just can’t understand this sense of entitlement, or the idea that a writer would be greedy or ungenerous for taking a stand against piracy.

~In one case, two of my older titles—which had never been released as eBooks—had been digitally scanned & distributed as .pdf files~

Yes, I’ve had this happen.

You know, readers want books—we want to write books. If some readers feel entitled to do this, to take them without paying, some writers won’t be able to afford to write.

—You know, readers want books—we want to write books. If some readers feel entitled to do this, to take them without paying, some writers won’t be able to afford to write.—

As someone who sent out resumes a few months ago—after 10 years and 30 books in this business—all I can say is you’re darn right. A lot of us really are living on essentially minimum wage as it is.

To me, that 2500 books equals about a thousand bucks. Or the amount I paid for my daughter’s meal plan this semester at college.

Frankly, I’d rather feed my teenager than provide free entertainment to the masses…many of whom won’t pay even for a used copy of a book (which doesn’t bother me) but who have no problem clicking that Paypal button to help “support” the sites promoting this piracy.

Anyone can justify anything. When it comes down to it, what these sites are doing is illegal and wrong. Unfortunately, we as a society, have became enamored with the idea of something for nothing. If someone can get a book for free, they will do it. Morals don’t even enter the picture. I think the book industry needs to send a strong message that this is wrong. You just don’t screw with someone’s livihood.

Blaming the writers for feeling violated by piracy is akin, I feel, to blaming a writer for feeling violated by plagiarism.

Why should the victim be nice, and diplomatic, and forgiving here?

I don’t get it.

Nora—I just out of curiosity did a search on your name at the particular site I referred to earlier.

They have 1251 uploads of your books, in various languages and formats. Some of which have been downloaded in the thousands of times. 

I cannot begin to imagine what this one site is costing you. And nobody will convince me that all those people are reading these for free and then going out and paying money for the actual book.

Leslie, will you e-mail me the site?

[Danny said: I’m not trying to support either argument, though I’ll say that I would be surprised if Internet downloads ruined someone completely.]

Perhaps not ruined someone completely, but definitely had an impact.

I’m an e-book author. We don’t get advances, we don’t see a nickel until the book is published and (God willing) people buy it. So reader X buys the book and I get say $1.00 for that copy. But then X goes onto those sites, shared the book and 1500 people download it. I will never see a dime of the $1500.

This is my job. Am I not entitled to compensation? Do you work for free?

If I choose to send out promotional chapters or give away a copy of the book as a prize in a contest, that’s on me. To have someone arbitrarily decide to give my work away is wrong.

word: pressure98 and rising

—Leslie, will you e-mail me the site?—

Done.

—-Danny said: If Internet downloads cause someone to then go out and spend their money, I think the ends can justify the means if only a little bit. It’s still wrong, but some good came of it.—-

Isn’t this sorta like saying that since the bitchery and Nora raised money for the ferrets, that it justifies CE plagarizing the ferret article?

Personally, I think it is wrong to pirate books because no one deserves to make money off of work that they didn’t do.

Adding insult to the injury, some of these things are in rich text or even .doc formats. Someone especially unscrupulous could download the book to read, then copy & paste chunks of it right into their own documents and try to pass it off as their own.

By all means, let’s make it easier on the plagiarists.

I think the book industry needs to send a strong message that this is wrong. You just don’t screw with someone’s livihood.

The music industry did. When I got out of DJ work locally here they had started suing college students and parents of teenage kids and then they really messed up and threatened DJs and internet radio stations and basically they attacked the consumers and the promoters.

It did not stop anything really all those Chinese and Russian web sites are still selling the latest albums and Torrent is still sharing.

I am keeping used record stores in business on EBay and Amazon.

Hell, I spent big bucks on used CDs recently. I paid $40 bucks for a rare single ep from Lumo and $50 for Young American Primitive. I still have not found that internet only Curve album yet dang it.

This is true for most of my hardcover books too $35 to $40 bucks a piece depending on rarity like the James Barr Fugate I just bought called Derricks from 1956.

~How can downloading ONE book from a piracy site be okay? I don’t care how many were bought by legal means. Why is okay to cheat the artist, ever or at all?

How is it not stealing to take something without paying for it?

I wonder why it’s considered alienating fans to object to having your work taken without compensation.

If it’s okay one time, or ten times, why isn’t okay all the time? Or most of the time? Or whenever the individual doing the download feels like it?

I guess I just can’t understand this sense of entitlement, or the idea that a writer would be greedy or ungenerous for taking a stand against piracy.~

1) Piracy
2) The reaction to piracy

Is it possible to separate these two issues?  Does anyone even see a difference?  It feels like if I don’t agree that all “pirates” should be called thieves or cheats, then I must have a problem with artists being against piracy.  Or, that since I disagree with the reaction to something, then I must be okay with whatever that something is?  I don’t like the polarization of “if you don’t agree with us, then you must be against us.”  Can’t I see value in each side?  Or, can’t I disagree with both?  Everyone is greedy and generous.  The existence of one does not mean the nonexistence of the other.

I’m put off by everything being lumped together.  I don’t think I have a sense of entitlement, nor do I think writers are greedy or ungenerous (no more than anyone else is) for taking a stand against piracy.

Artists want as much money as they can get for their product.  Fans want as much product as they can get for their money.  Employers want as much productivity as they can get for your salary.  Employees want as much salary as they can get for their productivity.  The other side may see you as greedy, because they are seeing it from a different perspective.  Or, maybe everyone is greedy, or none of them are greedy, depending upon a viewpoint?

I do not think the solution to piracy is to call every person that has ever illegally downloaded someone else’s work a thief and good riddance to them.  I don’t see how that ultimately solves the issue to anyone’s satisfaction.  I do not know what the solution is.  I think whoever comes up with a viable solution first, is going to make a crapload of money (iTunes, anyone?).  At least, until technology forces yet another change, making the previous business model obsolete.

And I’ve obviously gone off on a tangent and indulged in a lot of babblery, but I still wonder if moderation (from all sides) is the (impossible) answer to everything.

“An author emailed me saying the minute she found her books on a newsgroups site being shared “woo hoo I’m big time now, they are pirating my books.”. Posted by Teddy Pig
————————-

Well, if anyone is friendly with Chritine Feehan they can email her and tell her she has ~finally~ hit the big time because I have just seen a site where her books are being given away for free. Poor thing, maybe now she’ll get some fan recognition.

(Anyone NOT get the sarcasm? For them: Okay, it was.)

Cripes… I can so spell Christine. Some times.

I always have big issues with “secure” formtas, and if it all comes down to that, I am afraid I will never buy ebooks again.  I read ebooks for convenience, not to have a fight with the software every time I try to open my purchased ebook, or figure out how many more times can I open the book, or about the license, etc.

This is exactly why I only recently started buying iTunes music again. They stopped the crappy DRM junk. If it does not have a + next to it. I don’t buy.

I am also the same way with eBooks I might read a DRM’d eBook but no review.

I will not support or promote someone’s paranoia or locking a reader into a single format.

If a person who takes an item(like a book) that was for sale, without paying, should not be referred to as a thief, then what? It seems to me that objecting to a label like that is adding insult to injury, suggesting that not only does this person not want to pay money, but they don’t even want to have to face disapproval. Come on. If someone wants to be not lumped in with people who do things that are illegal, then they have the choice of not breaking those laws. I’m not getting where people see a grey area in this.

As another note, as far as I can tell, it isn’t completely easy for one to go about sharing a legally purchased e-book. When you purchase an e-book from Harlequin or many of those other places, the file is DRM protected, which basically means it bonds itself to your computer. If you were to send the file as it is to someone else, they wouldn’t be able to read its contents because the file would be able to tell the difference between their computer and yours.

As far as I know, most of the formats that legal e-books are offered in aren’t easy to rid of their DRM…

I can only assume that a large portion of the books online are scanned page by page. These people much have too much time on their hands. X)

Downloading pirated books is stealing, plain and simple.

If you are that poor, there are libraries. Or you can visit a UBS. I’m a big supporter of both, but there’s a huge difference between libraries and used bookstores, which may have a few copies of said item, and an internet site that allows downloads to hundreds of users, and for a fee.

Giving a book to a friend to read is sharing. Taking it off an internet pirate site, like thousands of others, is stealing.

It grieves me to see talented authors like Leslie Kelly who have to get together their resume, after 10 years in this business, because of economics. I’m with her. Feed the teenager!

I’ve personally mailed, out of my own pocket, books of mine to readers who write to me and say they love my work but they are “economically challenged” and charged no cost. I do it because I love this genre, and if a reader can’t find my books or she’s on a limited budget, I want to work with them. I’ll go out of my way to find a UBS that carries my books, or a library, or finally mail it to them.

I work very hard to create the books I write, and I also work a demanding day job because romance writing alone won’t pay the bills. Seeing my work on this site pissed me off to no end.

I’ll be damned if I support anyone downloading books on a pirated site. If you’re so interested in my books, or other Harlequin authors, visit a site like paperback swap.com. It’s a wonderful trading internet spot, for free, and you can get a book legitimately, and not risk the wrath of Harlequin’s legal department.

I hope Harlequin is able to nail their butts to the wall, but like someone else said, they’ll vanish and reappear somewhere else.

I went to the site and read a few of the books. I haven’t read Harlequin since high school, and certainly wouldn’t purchase any of the books now. I think it’s erroneous to assume that the people who are downloading the free ebooks would have purchased the books had they not been otherwise available on the site. They’re not really losing a whole lot of money here.

“I went to the site and read a few of the books. I haven’t read Harlequin since high school, and certainly wouldn’t purchase any of the books now. I think it’s erroneous to assume that the people who are downloading the free ebooks would have purchased the books had they not been otherwise available on the site. They’re not really losing a whole lot of money here.”

Uhhhh, the point is they are stealing! It doesn’t matter if the book is 1 cent, that belongs to the author. Like Nora said, it does end up being alot of money.

Think of the sites like a library then. Everyone who is interested can read thousands of books for free. SOMEONE bought the original book in order to be able to post it, so basically they’re acting like a librarian and sharing with the rest. It’s not stealing if the buy a book and let their friends read it too.

“Uhhhh, the point is they are stealing! It doesn’t matter if the book is 1 cent, that belongs to the author. Like Nora said, it does end up being alot of money.”

My point is they you’re using some really fuzzy math. If the 10 people who downloaded a book would never have purchased the book had downloading never been invented, the author has lost nothing.

Think of the sites like a library then. Everyone who is interested can read thousands of books for free. SOMEONE bought the original book in order to be able to post it, so basically they’re acting like a librarian and sharing with the rest. It’s not stealing if the buy a book and let their friends read it too

Except a library only gives one copy to one person at a time. Pirate sites give 1 copy to thousands of people at one time. Not even comparable.

—SOMEONE bought the original book in order to be able to post it, so basically they’re acting like a librarian and sharing with the rest. It’s not stealing if the buy a book and let their friends read it too.—

A single paperback library book, or one distributed through a UBS can be read by how many people before it falls apart and has to be re-purchased. 10? 20? Maybe even push it and say it lands in the hands of 50 people before it falls apart (I’d like to see any paperback book that could hold up to 50 readings.)

How does that possibly compare to someone plunking down 4 bucks and then sharing that book with 2000 of their “closest friends” on the internet?

And how should I feel about those 2000 readers while I’m pocketing the 24 cents I made on the one and only sale?

PS: It’s not just Harlequin books. It affects everyone.

—My point is they you’re using some really fuzzy math. If the 10 people who downloaded a book would never have purchased the book had downloading never been invented, the author has lost nothing.—

Sorry, I find your math fuzzy. Just because you would never be interested in reading “those Harlequin books” under any circumstances, that does not mean other readers wouldn’t.

Let’s split the difference and say half wouldn’t. Or even 1/3. When you’re looking in the tens of thousands of copies like somebody like Nora is, that’s still a whole lot of lost sales.

As someone who sent out resumes a few months ago—after 10 years and 30 books in this business—all I can say is you’re darn right. A lot of us really are living on essentially minimum wage as it is.

This is disheartening, especially since I have so many of Ms. Kelly’s books on my bookshelf.

I would be surprised if Internet downloads ruined someone completely.

According to a study commissioned in Canada in 2005, the average annual salary of a writer is LESS THAN $9000.  That’s below the poverty line.

It’s not stealing if the buy a book and let their friends read it too.

So, what about the people who are “sharing” books that aren’t even released yet?

Almost forgot…

Libraries that lend out ebooks lend one copy to one reader at a time and only give you a specific window in which to read them.  After, in the case of my library, 3 weeks, the file expires and “removes” itself from your computer.

Libraries do NOT let their tens or hundreds of thousands of users download an ebook and keep it indefinitely.

The thing is: if a library buys a book and then lends it out, that book, for a certain amount of time, is no longer on the library shelves. Only one person can read it. With a digital copy for that to apply, I’d have to physically give someone my PDA or my computer.

Now when these sites open up access to a file, it doesn’t mean when someone downloads that file, it disappears from my computer and goes into theirs. When they download it, it creates two copies and the author does NOT get paid for the second copy.

It’s the exact same thing as if I lend a book to a friend and she returns it OR I make a copy of the entire book and give it to her.

It’s stealing and it’s cheating the author of hard-earned wages.

For those who don’t think piracy is theft, I offer Title 17 of the US Code for your reading pleasure:

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html

I particularly recommend “Chapter 5. Copyright Infringement and Remedies” in which it states (in part):

“(c) Statutory Damages. —

(1) Except as provided by clause (2) of this subsection, the copyright owner may elect, at any time before final judgment is rendered, to recover, instead of actual damages and profits, an award of statutory damages for all infringements involved in the action, with respect to any one work, for which any one infringer is liable individually, or for which any two or more infringers are liable jointly and severally, in a sum of not less than $750 or more than $30,000 as the court considers just. For the purposes of this subsection, all the parts of a compilation or derivative work constitute one work.

(2) In a case where the copyright owner sustains the burden of proving, and the court finds, that infringement was committed willfully, the court in its discretion may increase the award of statutory damages to a sum of not more than $150,000.”

Theft of copyright can be very expensive for the perpetrator.

Needless to say, I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. I am merely a librarian, who knows where to find info on the Copyright Law.

(security word: boy55—Gee, do I get that many????)

I can see both sides of this debate.

1. Making money off unauthorised copies of someone’s work is wrong.
2. On the other hand, a ll the music I have bought in the last decade has been as a direct result of downloading one or more tracks first (I do not keep music I have no intention of purchasing).The only book I’ve downloaded for free off the Internet was the last Harry Potter (mainly to confirm that I wouldn’t pay good money for it).
4. Libraries exist to provide free access to books. Unfortunately, especially where I live, their selection is extremely limited, and their acquisitions dept seemingly doesn’t give a shit about listening to their patrons’ suggestions (for example, the city centre library in Canberra, Australia, has 5 books by Nora Roberts on their shelves (including the J.D. Robbs - they don’t seem interested in acquiring more).
5. Publishers charge way too much for e-books. Why on earth should I pay as much as a dead tree edition? Nora mentions $1.20 in royalties. Double that for production costs, and I can’t see why an e-book costs more than $US5. Add to that the annoyance of DRM, which means I can’t transfer my copy of the book to whatever device I want to read it on (and DRM doesn’t stop piracy, as we know).
6. A lot of people download pirated copies for the same reason I do music - to have a free preview; to have an e-version of a hardcopy they already own; an authorised copy costs a ridiculous amount of money and can’t be transferred between devices.
7. A lot of other people take the piss and download way more than they should (ie. they have no intention of purchasing a “hard copy” of whatever it is they’ve obtained)
8. Readily-available books certainly benefit by word-of-mouth.
9. Publishers have been crap at making their books readily available electronically. Not only are there the cost and DRM problems, but also the fact there can be significant delays in releasing an e-version, where one exists.

What’s the solution? Make e-books a reasonable cost and without the annoying DRM (which generally means you must have a certain device or OS to read the book). Most people prefer to do things legally where they can, and support the artists whose work they consume (or else there wouldn’t be much art going on!) Of course, you’ll never get rid of the something-for-nothing crowd, but if the real stuff is more readily available, those morons would become by far the minority.

Maybe someone could start up an online “lending-library”? You have a subscription for the site, and a $5 credit allows you to read 5 or so books online. Once you’ve “activated” the book you want to read, you have 30 days to read it. Obviously, there could be different “prices” for different books (more popular books should probably require more credit to read). There should probably be some e-commerce tie-in so that subscribers could buy the books they wanted permanently (with perhaps the lending credit subtracted from the price).

And would any mainstream publishers go for that kind of scheme? Probably not, given their level of interest in providing online reading at reasonable cost - the only publisher I can think of who tries is Baen. Maybe one day more will see the obvious benefits.

economic52 - very apt.

As someone who has downloaded files (both music and e-book) from the internet, illegally, all I can say is: if there weren’t for those copies, I never would have bought some CDs, or even heard for some bands that I absolutely adore now.
Here is also a thing that happened to me recently: I bought an e-book from Samhain, which was in fact a part two of an ongoing story arc. I read it, and was thrilled! But, what about part one? Where is it? At first I thought I overlooked it somewhere, so I went back to Samhain and checked again. Nothing. So I’m thinking: “Maybe they published part two before part one accidentally, who knows? Maybe it’s going to be released soon.”
Then I start searching that list, and nothing.
Dude.
This is where I’m starting to get pissed. I wanna know what happened before the events in book two, but where is the book one? Aha! E-bay. (But I gotta say I loathe E-bay.)
To cut this long and boring story of mine short, there was no book one, not even on E-bay. One of my friends suggests searching for a sharing site; I go there and download that book in maybe 20 minutes. Before that, I spent app. a week and a half on that book search, in libraries, online stores and the publisher’s site.
I will totally buy that book if it ever comes out published, because I read it already, and can say I consider myself a fan. But if the author in question came to me, and told me I am a thief… I’d say good riddance to you, too. Not because I think there’s nothing wrong with illegal copies and file sharing, but because I consider what I did as reading an advanced copy of the book I plan to buy when/if it ever comes out.
Sorry about being boring.
P.S. The author doesn’t have that first book mentioned at all on her site. Like it never existed… Creepy.

I hate to wander into the lion’s den and yank on his tail but I have to point out that this isn’t a remotely new problem. In fact drawing attention to the situation can only make it worse. It took me two seconds on Google to find a newsgroup with ebooks for download. The link in question will mirror fifty more just like it. The genie is well out of the bottle.

There will always be people out there who download this stuff en-mass and then strain their eyes to read it but the majority of readers (IMO) want a book in their hands. That gives the publishing industry an advantage the music industry will never have again. The lost revenue from readers who would have bought the book if a pirated copy wasn’t available just can’t compare to an industry selling sound.

Not making light of the situation just putting it in context.

Many pirated reads (again, IMO) are people who don’t want to pay money until they know what their getting. Everybody knows what it’s like to read the back blurb, hope for the best get burned with a stinker. This leads to two problems. One: they read a bit, realize it’s shit or not their style and move on. Two: They read a bit, realize it’s great and get sucked in to the last page. Both equal no revenue for the author though there is always option three: They read it, realize it’s awesome and go buy a copy.

Another reason for pirating copies is simple economics. As people have less and less money for non-essential things they can’t go out and buy the latest Nora. I think the majority of readers honestly want to do the right thing but when there is no money they have to go a different route. And before someone jumps on me shouting LIBRARY!!!- I don’t think the average person sees moral distinction between the two.

The main thing the publishing industry can do is make the problem work for them in some way. Harlequin has made use of freely offered e-books (presumably) to showcase unknown authors or ones who need to find a new audience. A publishers version of top 40 radio: Entice people with a good read and send them to their local Borders for more of the same.

A better idea is to make the fist chapter/s of all their new releases freely available in one file. Hell, advertise it in the back flap of every new book. I can’t think of a more devious and useful selling tool. New writers and proven sellers all given just enough space to grab your attention and leave you hanging for more.

So, if someone will probably buy the book later, it’s okay.

If someone wouldn’t have bought the book anyway (in direct opposition to justification first) it’s okay.

If they’re in a financial crunch but want the book, it’s okay.

If they want to be sure they’ll like the book first, it’s okay.

If they consider the piracy site their library, it’s okay.

If someone thinks the publishers charge too much for a book, it’s okay.

If someone considers it a kind of promotion for the book/author, it’s okay.

Illegally downloading a book, uploading a book, using or supporting a piracy site is okay because (see above list). For these reasons, and others I may not have listed, it’s okay not to compensate the author, and all the other people who put time and effort into producing the book, for the work.

It’s okay to do something wrong because—see above list.

Those who use and support piracy sites don’t want writers to object. It’s illegal, but it’s not black and white because—see above list—and writers shouldn’t say, hey, wait a minute. That’s stealing. Because it’s offensive to those who indulge.

This goes back to that sense of entitlement again. I’m entitled to do this because. To which I’ll continue to respond: It’s stealing. It’s costing me and my colleagues.

Amazing to think that people who are downloading books or music illegally are frequently huge fans who spend a great deal of money and that maybe marketing to them may be more desirable for someone wanting to stay in business in the long run than otherwise indulging in name calling or implying they are thieves.

I think there is a huge difference between someone selling something illegally and someone simply sharing/finding a file to download but I’ve been around for a while.

I find I am more interested in the “if and/or why” the customer can not buy the product at a reasonable price in the form they are downloading it as off these sites than immediately yelling at them for ripping me off.

If you want to make a distinction between swapping and pirating, let’s make it easy.

If you are willing to truly swap electronic files by deleting your copy when you pass it on, then authors will have a lot less problem supporting you.  You buy one.  Do what you want with it.

But you do not buy an infinite supply.

I am willing to accept a gray area in moving the file between devices in your own possession.  As someone who still has a cabinet full of Beta videos, I understand the problem.

But once you decide to pass the book on to a friend, you need to delete all of your copies.  Otherwise, it’s the same as putting my book on the Xerox machine, and hitting the button.  There is nothing morally ambiguous about that.

And as for pirating books as a way to generate future sales, and comparisons to the music industry? 

We are not like the music industry.

There is no way for an author to make up lost sales income by touring, or playing small venues for rent and groceries.  You are not going to pay to see us writing at your local tavern.  We can’t do a has-beens-of-romance tour.  We will not make this back on t-shirt sales.

Some of us have books that are only in print for a few months.  If you don’t buy it then, you aren’t going to get a chance later.  So any pirating that occurs in that brief time we are on sale is not going to increase sales for that book next year, when you have the money.  When it’s off the shelf, we get no more royalties for it.  Buying it at a UBS does not give us income, and does not add to our sales numbers.

Pirating cuts into sales numbers.  And authors with low sales numbers get dropped by their publishers as a bad risk.  Sometimes, it only takes one book.  Sometimes two.  In publishing, a new author is not likely to get a third chance to prove she has an audience.

The new talent that you want to support is going to be hardest hurt, if you are making copies of their books.

The slow ground swell of support from a couple thousand people who will buy us when they ‘have the money’ is not going to help us save a fledgling career, if publishers think we’re tanking.  We might not be there, when you are ready to buy.  We will have taken a day job, because we can’t afford to live on dreams.

I have nothing particular to add to this discussion; I can see both sides of the argument.

It does remind me though: I went into Borders in the late morning a while ago, found the latest book by an author I liked, grabbed a latte at the in-store Starbucks and started reading. That afternoon, I finished the book, and bought it because I enjoyed it. I wonder if there are others who do a similar thing, but don’t buy the book afterwards?

“I went into Borders in the late morning a while ago, found the latest book by an author I liked, grabbed a latte at the in-store Starbucks and started reading. That afternoon, I finished the book, and bought it because I enjoyed it. I wonder if there are others who do a similar thing, but don’t buy the book afterwards?”

Yes.  But Borders doesn’t mind, because they made more money selling you the latte, then they did selling you the book.

But if you didn’t buy, the author would get nothing.

Hate to come in late on this, but here’s my bottom line after reading the article and all the comments.

If you are reading pirated copies of books on these sites, you are not a fan.

A fan is someone who supports the artist, who enjoys the artist’s work and who respects the artist’s right to benefit financially from their work.

Authors have said here that pirated works hurt our bottom line and have given examples, with numbers, on how that works.

Yet some argue and refuse to believe it.

Authors are telling you that sales have dropped in the last few years and that careers are being cut short by that bottom line.

Yet some argue and refuse to believe it.

Authors are telling you in no uncertain terms that there is no excuse for piracy, that it is stealing and we don’t like to be stolen from.

Yet some argue and refuse to believe it.

You’re not a fan.

On the Metallica example—they fought because they knew it was hurting their bottom line.  They were losing money.  The entire music industry was.  I contend that the music industry did not suffer because certain artists fought the piracy, but because the piracy continued and grew.

Piracy is wrong and I want to personally thank the readers who recognize this fact.  You are fans.  I appreciate the money that you spend to buy my books and/or the books of my fellow writers.  I write for you.  I hope that my books give you the pleasure and escape you have paid for.

For the rest—you have your own conscience to live with, I suppose.  You can justify your actions however you like, but in the end, it is still wrong and when you can’t get as many books as you once could because of this thievery, you’ll know you’re the reason.

Someone up the way mentioned a “sense of entitlement” as being at the root of the piracy - an attitude of “gee, it’s on teh intrawebs 4 free…”

I have an acquaintance who is very techno-savvy. I’ve mentioned, “gee, I’d like that song/book/software program/*insert desire here*” and he says, “I can get that for you for free, just don’t ask.” Don’t ask, don’t tell. That makes me very itchy - itchy enough that I’ve refused his assistance.

There seems to be a prevailing attitude among the eGeneration that if they can find it free on the ‘net, they are entitled to it. Cracking software to download illegally within hours of its release is a holy grail of sorts. Cracking ANYTHING is, when push comes to shove.

Call me old fashioned and hidebound. *waves cane while yelling, “Get outta my yard” at the young hooligans* Or maybe it’s the years I spent in law enforcement where things are pretty much black and white. Trust me, these sites know they are illegal, as do the people who download from them. I have to side with Nora and Christine and all the other authors here.

I don’t care what your justifications are, if it’s illegal, why are you doing it? If no one used these sites, they wouldn’t stay in business - and trust me, it is a business. They don’t do it out of the generous goodness of their hearts.

On the Metallica example—they fought because they knew it was hurting their bottom line.  They were losing money.  The entire music industry was.  I contend that the music industry did not suffer because certain artists fought the piracy, but because the piracy continued and grew.

You know that is a really enticing black and white argument.

Then I know personally that rock artists used to rant and rave about people bootlegging their concerts and taking pictures. You still get patted down going into the things because they do not want you taking pictures for free or recording the event.

The Grateful Dead however always made room front stage for picture takers and hell, they would even let you plug your recorders right into the sound board.

I have no doubt in my mind how much that goodwill and those fans kept them going for years without a top ten single in sight.

Now those same fan bootleg recordings are being used to keep their recording contracts going and the those albums are still selling well.

I am not saying you should ignore or allow all of this to go on. I am just saying I am more impressed by people who end up being smart about their reaction to piracy and managing it.

I don’t care about goodwill toward people who justify stealing from me. It’s ILLEGAL. You are not entitled, and I’m not going to look for ways to make it okay for you.

I make time for my readers. In all sorts of ways, over and above the actual writing. I believe, sincerely, I give back.

Want to take a picture at a signing, get the camera. Want a signed book for a charity event or auction, give me your address. If this sort of thing isn’t enough ‘good will’, I can’t help it.

I’m not going to try to twist an illegal act into a way to promote myself or make those who commit it happy.

Silver, Julie and Christine have said it all very clearly, and addressed many different points in the last three posts.

Those who don’t want to listen and to accept that piracy hurts us, won’t.

“The Grateful Dead however always made room front stage for picture takers and hell, they would even let you plug your recorders right into the sound board.”

What a great thing to do for those loyal fans who bought tickets to a Dead concert!

Oh, wait.  You don’t have to buy a ticket to read a book.

Apples and oranges, again.  The Dead got money from their fans by selling concert tickets.  And if they were not getting radio play (which is another source of royalty income for musicians) they needed a way to get the music out, to create fans.  So bootlegs were a source of advertising that sold the music, and the Deadhead experience, which generated tour income…

But the only source of income we authors have is royalties.  It is nice to have a large fan base.  But the only way we can afford to write is by actually selling a large number of books.

We will give away as much as we can, and direct people to UBS’s or other sources, to get the stories to the readers.  For example in the post from “Why I am being insulted”, did you try sending an e-mail to that Samhain author, asking how to get the first book?  I bet she’d have helped you find a legal copy, if it was at all possible.

But we are not currently working in an enviroment where we can allow strangers to give entire books away, hoping that the karma will balance out, and we will be able to afford to continue writing.

—There seems to be a prevailing attitude among the eGeneration that if they can find it free on the ‘net, they are entitled to it.—

Silver, as the parent of teenagers, I have to say amen to that. It’s a battle to change that attitude, to keep my kids from doing what I tell them is wrong when “all their friends are doing it.”

Have I found illegally downloaded music on their computers? Oh yeah. But does it stay there once I do? Oh no. I saw that as a right or wrong, black or white thing long before I was personally affected by the book piracy. I just don’t understand how anyone can say it’s not theft and it’s not wrong.

Teddy, that doesn’t mean I don’t see your point—that authors might be shooting themselves in the foot by (loudly) fighting it. People who are used to getting something for nothing will be angry if they can no longer get it. And probably more angry to be called thieves when they don’t even acknowledge they’re doing something wrong. (Or when they make tons of excuses for it.)

But I’ll just have to take that chance. Because what is the alternative? Should I just give in and say, “Yeah, sure, take me again, baby, I’m really happy with the 24 cents I made on the book that 2000 of you have read.” (No, this is not an exaggeration. The book I’m talking about that was scanned & pdf’d cost $4.00. I get 6% royalty. That’s 24 cents.)

This business is hard. I’m one of those struggling midlist authors who’s been dumped because of falling numbers. Not saying the piracy caused that (I am quite sure it didn’t) but it certainly didn’t help.

It also doesn’t help matters when you go to some of these places and see message board posts saying, “Oh, x’s new book is out! I’m dying to read it, can somebody upload it?” And the next day, during the brief 3-4 weeks that the category title is still in stores, 200 people have downloaded it for free. Many with “Oh, I love you love you love you, thanks so much!” messages to the person who put it up there.

This happened to me last month. When people are requesting the title because they’re “dying” for it (in my case, it was the culmination of a 6 book series) you cannot tell me they would never have bought it anyway so I’ve lost nothing. 

So, no, I won’t just accept it. I will keep fighting it even if it is as futile as stomping on cockroaches in the dark in a filthy restaurant kitchen. Because the alternative is giving in, and I just don’t do that.

Apples and oranges, again.

I think it is more just a different era and a different medium. But the same lessons can be learned and adapted.

I liked what Radiohead did. They recognized what was happening and set about trying something to address it and please the fans and probably made some new ones.

You can either finger point at the Hydra or get smarter.

The husband just walked in and was reading over my shoulder. Brilliant legal mind that he is, he summed up the apples and oranges very succinctly. “It’s very similar to DVDs. You buy a DVD, it’s pretty much yours to do with as you please. You can loan it to a friend. You can play it in any DVD player and/or computer. BUT YOU CANNOT COPY IT and cannot sell it or give that copy away and you CANNOT charge admission to see it. If it isn’t okay for China to copy and bootleg DVDs, why is okay to upload scans of books or eBooks to the ‘net for free or ‘donation’ downloads?” [I knew there was a reason I married an attorney. :)]

Leslie, I remember the first non-fiction book I sold (small press). I got 10 cents a copy in royalty and actually made $90 one year. If it had been a title that 200 people downloaded for free (a dictionary of military terms for families and new service members isn’t exactly NYT best seller list material), yeah, that’s ONLY $20 bucks - but that’s a ream of paper, or printer ink, or postage…or half a tank of gas. People just don’t seem to get that the amount of money stolen from an author is not the issue, it’s the fact that it is STOLEN in the first place.

I do think downloading things for free that the authors didn’t wish to be downloadable for free is wrong, and stealing.

However, I also think that there need to be new, more direct and useful models for disseminating work in the digital age.  One program I like as a reader is the Amazon shorts program.  I don’t know how well this treats authors, but I have been THRILLED to pay .69 or whatever by credit card and download a short story by a favorite author.  I think that there should be some kind of Print-on-Demand service available where readers could easily pay to purchase paper or digital copies of older books, for instance.

One thing online fans have certainly shown is a willingness to donate to support authors directly, especially authors who are involved online or who give stuff (like daily comics) away for free.  Authors in the Early Modern era, if I recall correctly, received just advances - they wrote under a patronage system where a wealthy patron or publisher provided them with a sum of money in exchange for all rights to a book.  I think perhaps the internet may eventually support a group of artist/writer/creators who essentially function under some modern form of patronage - their audience funds them directly rather than through buying copies that route money to a publisher that routes money to the author.  But why should authors whose work has succeeded under the current system be chided for not wishing to adopt a new system?  And why should we assume that any one system for funding artist work will ever work for everyone?

The fact that the current system is problematic does not mean that I am justified in committing actions considered as theft in the current system.

~You can either finger point at the Hydra or get smarter.~

See it just gets me that it would be considered stupid, or not smart, to object to an illegal activity that takes money out of my pocket.

To be expected or encouraged to take this bootlegged lemon and make lemonade for people who are stealing from me.

I have to say I think Christine’s illustrated, a couple of times, why this is NOT like the music industry.

I’m doing more than pointing my finger. I’m reporting it, my publishers are fighting it. Every single time I’m alerted to a piracy site, I’m going to report it.

Ginger, if you like those Amazon shorts, you might want to check out the eHarlequin minis.

For several yeras, Harlequin has published original, very short novellas on their website, offering them as free reads for the site visitors. The author gets paid a flat fee for the project. And I’ve done a few of them, fully knowing I wasn’t going to get any more money than what I was paid up front. I wasn’t doing it for the money, I was doing it for the exposure and the promotional benefits. It was work for hire, and I knew it.

Now they offer most of those formerly free reads as “minis” on their ebooks site, for, like, 80 cents or something. I don’t get paid for it, but you know what, that’s fine. I agreed to that. And I’m proud of those little stories—they’re a nice introduction to my writing, so hopefully anyone who buys one will like what they read and seek out my current books.

The point is, obviously, I agreed to those terms, I sold that product and gave up any rights to it, so I would never complain about it. My work, My decision.

Would I do it for a full-length book? Absolutely not. Again My work, My decision.

Someone else pirating my books and offering them freely to the masses is My work, THEIR decision.

And that’s just wrong.

I’m doing more than pointing my finger. I’m reporting it, my publishers are fighting it. Every single time I’m alerted to a piracy site, I’m going to report it.

Right and that is what most artists in the Music Industry have done let someone else handle it and that is why the RIAA and it’s backlash is a mess.

Hey, I do not download music anymore but I also buy used records now if I even bother. Not one of those artists or labels will ever see a penny of my money with all that draconian legal nonsense that keeps making them look worse and worse.

It’s legal what they are doing but the fallout is on them.

I don’t think anyone is saying pirating isn’t wrong. We’re saying that it exists. Period. Full stop.
The more loudly publishers fight the abuse the worse the beating gets. People are just contrary by nature. If you take away their ba-ba and tell them it’s naughty to throw it at someones head they’ll start throwing chairs.

Publishers have to find ways to at least limit the damage. As has been pointed out many books have a very short shelf life so don’t offer e-book sales until it’s critical shelf time runs out.
There must be a few people out there willing to scan and convert everything by hand but the results are bound to be atrocious. People willing to pirate a copy of the newest whatever with chapters 6 and twelve reversed and 5 pages missing are stealing just because they can not because they care about what they stole. Getting one up on a publisher gives them a twisted sort of satisfaction. I can understand the appeal (although I don’t condone it).
When mp3s first started hitting the internet I would download albums just so music labels couldn’t have my money. They spent years bilking me out of 15 bucks a pop for albums that had one good track (the one heavily promoted on the radio) and nine tracks that made my ears bleed. I was mad and enjoyed the satisfaction of getting my money back even if I had no interest in the album I downloaded. Years later I’ve stopped being so childish and make every effort to support bands I like because I know they can’t survive without me. They deserve my money.

This motivation is the worst sort because there is no defense the publishers can take. People can justify themselves forever and a day by saying they’re taking back what’s theirs and may honestly enjoy seeing dwindling profit margins from the publishers they cheat.

Those motivated by maliciousness are lost causes (until they repent) but there are other motivations that publishers can work with such as people who pirate because they can’t find a copy of the book they want. Some books may be off the shelves and disappeared into the ether in a matter of months. This is lost revenue that they could have pocketed if a copy had been available. Publishers need to tweek their marketing strategy now that people no longer have to settle for the next book out and no longer need to run to the store to snatch up the latest read before it’s gone forever.
Offer a back catalog of books for direct sale from their website. Offer e-book collections with a limited edition signed picture (or something) mailed to them for their patronage. It’s obvious people love free shit.
Offer a limited edition anthology mailed free of charge to e-book customers who buy X number of e-books. It’s the same marketing strategy my local caffeine fix uses to keep me loyal in the form of a handy punch card *buy twelve get one free* Yay!

Publishers unwilling to change the way they do things are going to slowly drown. ‘Though I’ll feel badly because they don’t deserve it they should at least try to swim.

Publishers unwilling to change the way they do things are going to slowly drown.

Actually, Bc, it’s the authors who will drown first, due to falling sales.  And then it will be the readers who drown, because they will no longer be able to get their hands on stories by authors who have been shut out of contracts due to poor sales. 

This is why I don’t understand the motive you ascribe to book pirates, namely

People can justify themselves forever and a day by saying they’re taking back what’s theirs and may honestly enjoy seeing dwindling profit margins from the publishers they cheat.

Taking their own back?  What exactly are they taking back?  Why the rage against publishers??  Correct me if I’m wrong, but as far as I know, it’s not as if the price of a mass market book is outrageously out of proportion to the cost of its production (unlike, perhaps, the example of CDs, which you used—once again suggesting what a poor analogy the music industry offers to the issue at hand).  A mass market book costs $5.99 - $7.99, less than a meal at most places!  Are the people you’re describing simply irritated that they have to pay anything at all?  If so, I don’t think there’s much use reasoning with such folks, and I don’t think a signed photo sent upon purchase of an ebook is going to assuage their irrational anger.

Ginger, the POD system you imagine is out there. It’s basically a kiosk with thousands of books loaded within, and people will be able to print out what they want and have a quick-bound copy. Not sturdy, not archival, but cheap and usable.

The big question is who is going to use it, what types of literature to load within and where to situate it—bookstore, libraries, shopping malls, wherever.

~Offer a limited edition anthology mailed free of charge to e-book customers who buy X number of e-books. It’s the same marketing strategy my local caffeine fix uses to keep me loyal in the form of a handy punch card *buy twelve get one free* Yay!~

It’s coffee. It’s not something somebody worked on for days and weeks. A book isn’t written by assembly line.

Holding the e-form of a book back until the paper’s had its chance will surely piss off the readers who want or prefer the e-form. The cry will be: Why am I being punished? I wouldn’t blame them.

For those who think writers who object, who work with their publishers to shut down piracy sites deserve to be boycotted, so be it.

Stealing is stealing.  If it wasn’t legally purchased from a legal representative of the owner/author/artist, it’s STEALING. Same as if the product were designer handbags, dresses, or watches.  Just because the product is less tangible and can be transmitted over the internet doesn’t mean it’s legal to do so.

If I don’t want to buy a book, I check it out of the library.  If it’s a new author, I check it out of the library, then purchase if I like that author.  But a library is legal, piracy isn’t.

Friends once loaded a program to download games into our computer.  When I realized what it was (and that we could be sued for for using it), I immediately uninstalled it.  My kids download legally purchased music.  I download legally purchased e-books.  Will not purchase “secured” e-books, because they cannot be printed and I sometimes prefer to print them (for mobility)instead of sitting at the computer reading for hours on end.  I have never shared an e-book, or a printed copy of an e-book. I’m unsure of the legalities of this, because it’s perfectly OK to trade, share, and resell a purchased paperback.

At first I thought I overlooked it somewhere, so I went back to Samhain and checked again. Nothing. So I’m thinking: “Maybe they published part two before part one accidentally, who knows? Maybe it’s going to be released soon.”
Then I start searching that list, and nothing.

This is a little off-topic but I think I know what book you’re talking about and I’m glad you posted, because it’s made me realize the website needs to acknowledge this more clearly because I myself only realized a few weeks ago the author’s website doesn’t have the info listed. Thanks for bringing this up. For future reference, we get emails every week about different series and asking for order of books or where to find books in the series, and we are always happy to answer these.

Back on topic. Candy, I wasn’t trying to ignore the nuances of your post at all, but rather should have made this point: I believe it’s easy for people to decry plagiarism as ethically wrong and ohmigod bad because they’re fairly comfortable it’s something they will never do, so they can paint it black or white and shame on the person who does it. But with file sharing, I’d guess the majority of people—including me—have engaged in it at one time or the other so as soon as you say it’s ethically wrong, their hackles raise. It’s so much easier to decry something as bad when you know you’re never going to have to worry about being accused of it. Totally human nature, to not want to believe you’re doing, or have done something wrong.

Having engaged in illegal downloading myself in the past of books, movies and music, I can say this: can I provide excuses, reasons or justifications for it? Well, sure. Does that mean it wasn’t ethically wrong? No. What I did was ethically wrong. It is ethically wrong. No matter my reasons for having done so. I am not trying to be a hypocrite and say people who do this are evil or totally bad. I think I’m only evil every other day in months that have less than four letters (summer’s a bad season around my house). But I am trying to say that readers need to understand that using pirate sites does have consequences for the authors and publishers who produced that book. It is not an act that is without harm. Whether it’s loss of money, loss of sales and thus future contracts, incompletion of series, authors who stop writing or write less, publishers who go out of business and stop publishing authors, etc. Leslie Kelly has stated this using numbers. I have stated this using numbers. Nora Roberts has stated this using numbers. Facts, not hysterical screaming and ranting. Piracy results in monetary loss for the creators and producers.

I agree with people who hate DRM. *I* hate DRM. We don’t sell secure formats because those of us who run the company dislike secure formats. As people who sell ebooks we’re people who love ebooks and we want to make them as easy to use as possible for the people who bought them. I think if you buy a copy of an ebook (or a song) you should be able to read it or listen to it on as many devices as you own now and in the future. But I also understand why secure formats exist—because people think uploading the book they bought to a file sharing site for thousands of their most intimate friends is okay.

Is there an easy solution to this? No. Do I think file sharing on piracy sites can be eradicated? No. But maybe one person reading this thread has decided to stop uploading their books to a pirate site, after seeing the numbers and personal examples (and yes, hope does spring eternal in my life).

Because I relaly have to go, and this is really, really interesting, and goes to the core of what makes people go “BLARGLE BLARGLE BLARGH” from all sides of the issue.
I think what’s at the core of this and why this is not ever going to be a topic that a common consensus can be reached on because it involves money, and any time you start talking about someone’s money, whether it’s the authors’, publishers’ or readers’, it’s going to be an emotionally charged conversation where people feel a disconnect because it’s often broken down to us or them.

A better idea is to make the fist chapter/s of all their new releases freely available in one file

A lot of authors and publishers do provide excerpts.  Some authors even provide free COMPLETE stories on their site for readers to sample.

Ahh, intellectual vs real property.

At the risk of seriously oversimplifying this…with movies you own the DVD disc (real property), but not what’s on the DVD (intellectual property). That is the fine line.

Books work in exactly the same way. The reader buys the book and owns the physical object. But the contents are not theirs to do with as they please. Hence, that little thing that says Copyright, 2008 (insert author here).

E-books. You own the file, but not the written words. Those fall squarely under the auspices of the author.

At least that’s what the attorney in my life says.

Is there an easy solution to this? No. Do I think file sharing on piracy sites can be eradicated? No. But maybe one person reading this thread has decided to stop uploading their books to a pirate site, after seeing the numbers and personal examples (and yes, hope does spring eternal in my life).

There will always be the jerks wanting something for free and never buying a damn thing.

I think most of it though can be curtailed simply by the publishers dumping the stupid DRMs and making back catalogs available for purchase at a reasonable price.

Those are very easy quick fixes that address a ton of reasonably understood issues the customers might have who would purchase an eBook and not normally even go looking for those sites.

It’s not like these sites are always in the same place to go find them.

My opinion is most people are not intentionally seeking to do something illegal, they would rather purchase a product, but if you do not take care of the customer’s needs, the customer will most likely take care of themselves.

Let me preface what I’m about to say by acknowledging that I firmly believe these sites and their users are absolutely in the wrong, and the reason I think so is because of the sheer numbers involved. It’s not passing the book to your friend or sending one song via e-mail.

And I know I have somewhat flimsy ethics about this, so I could be ethically wrong in what I’m about to say, but so be it.

I have many times in the past read an entire book in the bookstore. I sometimes feel guilty about it, but if I know I don’t want to buy it (I have to choose what books to buy carefully—I don’t have much money, as I live on a fixed income, and books are very much a luxury), and I know the library won’t have it for months, but I very much want to read it, I’m willing to take a couple of hours and read it. Have I stolen from the author? I suppose I have. Am I likely to do this again?

Yes. Because if I like the book, I’ll buy it, b/c I read books over and over and over. Again, this is NOT a justification for the kinds of things we’re seeing with piracy sites, b/c for every one reader who sits in the bookstore and reads the book, there are probably a dozen who will buy it.

Maybe I’m justifying.

I also rip CDs from the library. Now, admittedly, most of these are classical CDs, as I prefer to write to Bach. And I don’t feel even remotely guilty about it. This has to do with the recording industry and its methods, but it’s probably hypocritical of me.

Finally, I’ve never been a big file-sharer, but I have, on occasion, e-mailed a song to a friend, or had a friend e-mail me a copy that I didn’t have. Similarly, I borrowed a friend’s CD and ripped it onto my computer.

I don’t feel guilty. She bought the CD. I’m not going to spread it around. As far as I’m concerned, once I’ve purchased something, it is mine to share or not. But I think of that sharing as something to be done among a small circle of people, not simply free-floating out there on the Intarwebs.

This kind of limited sharing seems acceptable to me, just as swapping books or e-books with a small group of friends seems fine. I guess I’m one of those people for whom the numbers matter.

Maybe the best solution is to allow e-books to be swappable, in that a given copy can be downloaded, say, 3 times, and then it shuts down downloading capabilities. I know nothing about tech, so maybe this is already a possibility.

I can’t see how anyone can justify piracy. No, it is NOT all right even if it contributes to future sales. It doesn’t matter whether it book or music. Piracy is a serious crime with serious consequences. Either way, the industry suffers. If you think ‘sampling’ music is okay, but oh noes, sampling books is WRONG WRONG WRONG, you’re delusional.

In my opinion, however, the creative industries need to be more innovative in tackling the problem. Technology is always one step ahead, and the solution doesn’t really lie in resolving matters in the courts, or convincing people about the ethical wrongs. Most people *know* that piracy is wrong, but they don’t stop because to them, it is the better alternative. Pirated goods are easily accessible.

People buy books for many reasons, but the major reason is probably out of respect/admiration for the author and his/her work. Without this admiration and respect, books are merely a form of entertainment.

Part of the reason why romance books are pirated in such large volumes is that there is very little respect and admiration for the industry. Romance novels are seen as light reading. People feel justified in illegally downloading these e-books because the book itself holds no value to them. They wouldn’t buy it in the tangible form, because they wouldn’t read it more than once. So, they conclude, they aren’t doing anything wrong.

It isn’t enough to retort, in this case, that the author of such a romance novel is being negatively impacted by lost sales, etc, from the vicious cycle of piracy. The person can’t empathise with the circumstances.

You can say here that the problem is that those people who consume pirated material don’t receive punishment. Yes, this is true. However, there are other crimes as well that can never be eradicated completely, such as burglary and shop-lifting (which happens more often than most people think). Sure, there is law enforcement, but how many people actually get caught?

So what is the solution? Firstly, the issue really boils down to swaying the consumer taste. In the end of the day, e-books and books are just words on a page. And unfortunately, the pirated e-books are also just words on a page. Moral ethics aside, people will always choose the free alternative.

The industry needs to innovate to compete with piracy. The industry also needs to build up the image of its business and its artists. You can’t get respect just because you want it. You earn respect, and I think too little is being done by the publishing industry (esp. romance) in this aspect.

snarkhunter—I’m pretty much of the same mind when you’re talking about limited swapping. I really don’t care if someone buys one of my e-books, and then sends it to a friend (or prints it out for a friend.) I also don’t care if someone sits down at Borders and reads the whole book.

But I do report the sites that have my book available for download to anyone who comes across it. That’s not peer-to-peer sharing anymore; that’s person-to-world sharing, and, IMO, not much different than putting my book up at the Gutenberg project or copying the text and pasting it onto their website. Hell, my own publisher would kick my ass if I put my in-print book available on my site; why should anyone else be able to? How does putting it in a .pdf make it any different than having an .html page? Would it be okay for them to copy the 150,000 words I wrote and put it at literotica?

No one would support that (I hope to God) but that’s essentially what those huge piracy sites are doing. I totally understand that readers want to try-before-buying ... that’s why I put four-chapter excerpts up before every release, because four chapters will give any reader a good indication of whether they’ll want to read the rest of the book. If people want to put those excerpts up on piracy sites, they can do so. But the entire book? No. Just no.

(oops, I should clarify—the second paragraph on isn’t directed at you and no longer in response to your comment, snarkhunter, but just more generally.)

Wow.  The last time I checked this thread there were 13 comments and now it has exploded.

I have file shared in the past, mostly with a few friends.  I’ve always felt okay about it because I buy tons of books.  Then I went to RWA.  I met these women.  I liked them.  I came home and the whole idea of file sharing made me feel morally uncomfortable.  I feel much better about sending fictionwise GCs and Samhain GCs (I wish Harlequin would get that function going). 

Angie and I did talk about this a great deal last week.  Mostly we didn’t talk about the ethics of file sharing but rather what could be done to reduce it

Things that I think contribute to epiracy, though, are publishers prices as too high and not all books being made into ebooks and DRM.

But, I will say that I don’t think file sharing is done because romances are thought of with disdain.  Sci fi and computer texts are probably the most widely shared texts although that might be changing.

I think that there isn’t as great of a loss as is suggested because I think (and this might not be empirically true) that people who might download a book might not actually be people who would have bought a book anyway.  I.e., some people just download to download.

I think you can engage in civil disobedience and still be ethical (i.e. engage in actions that are legally precluded by that you think are unconstitutional).

So those are my thoughts on the subject, for what it is worth.

Something to think about for those of you on the creative side of the publishing industry:  A lot of twenty somethings right now are somewhat disgusted with the mainstream music industry, and not simply because they’re suing 12 year olds for downloading 3 free mp3s that they didn’t pay for. 
We’re annoyed because the mainstream music industry has lost it’s soul, it’s art.  Music is made to make money nowadays, with most of the megahit stars being performers of manager fabricated music.  The songs are tailored to have crowd pleasing beats, tones and lyrics.  They pick the sounds that will catch the most ears and words that will offend the fewest people. 

The music has lost its personality.  To find this, one must listen to oldies, or listen to music that simply isn’t played on the radio or tv any longer.  And it’s getting harder and harder to find that, as most of us have careers and sometimes families now and don’t have time to be running off to concerts every weekend.  So many of us are just not buying music any more.  Or even listening to anything new. 

I like the new books I read now, yet when I walk into borders I see that the same thing is beginning to happen to books.  Please don’t go the route of the music industry.

Meljean Brook—no worries. I figured out what you meant. :) And your comment is basically exactly what I think anyway, so no worries either way.

Erm, okay, help me out here.

Why is it illegal and an arrest-able offense to shoplift, yet it is OK to download/steal a work for free off the ‘net? If it’s “shoplifting” when you steal it from a brick and mortar store, why is it suddenly okay on the Internet? We don’t consider shoplifting to be a “morally gray” thing (despite Les Miserables); why is it suddenly “gray” and “nuanced” when it’s on teh interwebs?

Why is it okay for artists to get screwed? Do they not have a right to eat by the hard work they do? Do they not have kids to feed? The assumption that artists don’t deserve to be paid for the hard work they do is something I particularly take issue with. We denigrate art and the work of creative people enough in our society. Why is it okay to add this financial insult to it? How does that happen?

If an artist is good enough to have their work published, they are proficient enough in their chosen career to expect a paycheck for it. Of course, sales and fan response will determine how far an author is successful. Consider for a moment how many authors might still be on the shelves if their work hadn’t been pirated, causing their sales to take a direct hit and causing publishers to drop them because they’re perceived as a poor risk. That is how it works in publishing.

Stealing from an author physically by shoplifting and stealing from an author by illegally and unethically downloading their work are not “different” issues where there are “gray areas”. Stealing is stealing. We’re not talking about people who steal food to survive; we are talking about people who choose to essentially shoplift. They know it’s wrong. We all know it’s wrong.

A lawyer expects to get paid for the work s/he does. A gas-station attendant, a retail-store employee, a bus driver—these people all expect to get paid for the work they do. Why do we expect artists to be somehow “different”, as if they can live on air?

Perhaps the music industry is different, Teddy (and note that this is one of the few issues where I’m disagreeing with you, since we’re usually on the same page.) You seem to know a lot about the music biz and I will accept your word that it might be different in that industry. I’m not conversant enough with the music biz to speak to how piracy affects the artist. But I know publishing; I’ve spent my life working in bookstores or for publishers, or producing works for sale within that industry. And I can most emphatically state that piracy doesn’t benefit the artist the way you describe (for the music biz) in publishing.

It’s shoplifting pure and simple, and the chorus of voices trying loudly to justify it or somehow introduce a “gray area” just drive home to me that the lady doth protest too much—we all know this is wrong, no matter how loudly the justifications are uttered. I’m mystified that anyone could think this sort of behavior is “morally gray” or okay.

I think that a person who shares an e-file with a friend is engaging in the same action of sharing a physical book with the friend.  I understand that with efiles, there is instant replication and so technically to mirror the physical copy scenario, the sharer should delete her copy when it is sent and then the sharee should delete her copy when returned.  Let’s assume that this is done, is the e-file sharing still not acceptable?

I understand that authors feel strongly about this and for that reason respect their wishes but like ARC sales, I don’t know that ALL file sharing is actually illegal.

It’s a whole different realm when it is the sites that Sarah references, but I am uncomfortable with the hardline stance because I don’t know whether individual file sharing is illegal.

I’m not talking about “sharing.” What we’re talking about here is not “sharing.” What we’re talking about is stealing on a massive scale, each individual justifying it to him/herself in different ways.

To try to muddy the issue by bringing in sharing is, to my mind, disingenious at best. We’re not talking about your close friend X loaning you a copy or saying “OMG you have to read this it’s so GOOD!”

We are talking about systematic robbery. We are talking about people taking advantage of some of the Internet’s properties as an information-sharing network in order to commit a crime, like identity theft or malicious hacking. These things are like unto “sharing” as apples are like unto hamsters.

Would you come into my house and take a cut off my paycheck just because you could, because it was free money and it entertained you? Of course you wouldn’t. But if you wouldn’t do that, why would you, say, download one of my books from one of these sites?

By all means, borrow a book (paper or digital) from your friend*. Borrow it from the library. Buy it cheap at the indie/used bookstore. Buy it cheap on Alibris or Abebooks. These are all acceptable, legal ways to get a book. Contributing to the theft of a portion of an author’s royalty check is not an acceptable or legal way to get a book.

* Massive download sites are not just “friends” sharing. They are operated at a profit; server space and domain names cost money and people “donate” to them. You could conceivably make the case that it is those who profit from these sites that are in the wrong, but the people that individually contribute to these sites that are just as culpable, IMHO.

I understand the issue but I don’t think it is disingenuous to draw distinctions.

Opinion ahoy…

I think it’s muddying the issue to call that a distinction. None of us are talking about sharing a book with your close friend X, we’re talking about sites that make a profit from hosting peer-to-peer file sharing. To me the issue of sharing is completely separate and only serves to muddy the issue we’re actually talking about.

I understand that probably wasn’t what you meant, so mileage may vary. But to me they are completely different issues and shouldn’t be mentioned in the same breath, nor should the totally-legal and acceptable practice of sharing a book with your friend be conflated with the illegal practice of robbing an author by participating in the wholesale theft from their royalty statement/check.

Just so we’re absolutely clear, I like and respect you, Jane. I just find the two issues so totally different that I think they shouldn’t be welded together, and that the issue of sharing shouldn’t be dragged in to muddy the issue of P2P piracy of any author’s books.

All I’m gonna say is this:

Once all the potential for making decent money is removed from writing, the only people still doing it will be the ones who can’t make money from it right now. ie: The ones who suck at it.

This is not like the music industry. There are no author stadium readings with $60 tickets (unless you’re JK Rowling), and I’m not going to be engaging in any 7 authors for $7 gigs at my local community hall, either. Aside from royalties, there is little to no other income for the typical midlist author.

And jeez, could I possibly use the term “muddy the issue” one more time for the gold medal? Sheesh.

I think it’s muddying the issue to call that a distinction. None of us are talking about sharing a book with your close friend X, we’re talking about
sites that make a profit from hosting peer-to-peer file sharing. To me the issue of sharing is completely separate and only serves to muddy the issue we’re actually talking about.

I just came upon this thread today, and reading through the comments from one to a hundred and whatever I see that the sharing issue has been present in this discussion almost from the beginning.  In fact, Candy’s early reference to Tim O’Reilly’s opinions articulate the inverse (obverse?—I always mix those two up) of your point above:

Piracy is a loaded word, which we used to reserve for wholesale copying and resale of illegitimate product. The music and film industry usage, applying it to peer-to-peer file sharing, is a disservice to honest discussion.

So to you, talking about sharing is unfair to the piracy issue, while for others, characterizing all exchanges as piracy is unfair to the sharing issue.  But in any case, I’ve seen both things being discussed throughout the many comments in this thread, which I appreciate, because IMO the distinction is both substantive and important for BOTH terms (i.e. if you want people to take piracy seriously, that aim can backfire when piracy is conflated with sharing, as IMO it so often is).

By all means, borrow a book (paper or digital) from your friend*. Borrow it from the library. Buy it cheap at the indie/used bookstore. Buy it cheap on Alibris or Abebooks. These are all acceptable, legal ways to get a book. Contributing to the theft of a portion of an author’s royalty check is not an acceptable or legal way to get a book.

I believe that authors should be compensated for their work, that large scale pirate sites ought to be shut down and I’ve never downloaded a book myself, but neither do I buy books with the intention of maximizing the author’s royalty check. I often read books in hardcover from the library but purchase the work only in paperback when they become available a year later.  That’s a legal choice, but it certainly deprives the author of some royalty.

If the point is to *always* maximize the profit to the author from the sale of the books, why are some methods other than ‘every individual pays the full cover price’ acceptable and some not?  A person who loans a paperback to a friend, or reads the library copy, is certainly not increasing the author’s profit.  Should they get an ethical pass while someone who rips an e-book for a friend is vilified?

I buy a lot of books from ‘remainder’ stores at a substantial discount from the cover price.  I doubt the author is getting as much, if any, royalty from my - perfectly legal - purchase of that book.  Should I feel guilty about that? I have, after all, deprived the author of a portion of their royalty check and that seems to be the gist of the argument.

I’m not totally pure.  I do confess to downloading a copy of the Return of the King extended edition a week before its official release.  However, because I bought legal copies of the three different editions of that movie as they became available, I have a hard time summoning up any guilt, and I never worry that my nefarious action deprived New Line of some profit.

We are not talking about maximizing author profit. No author in his or her right mind has a bone to pick with remainders, indie/used bookstores, or Alibris & Abe. All these things, while not maximizing author profit, are still legal and ethical ways to buy books. What we are talking about here is grand-scale theft by the proprietors and visitors of the sites that allow illegal downloads.

I don’t know about the movie biz; I freely admit that as well as the fact that I don’t know about the music biz. All I can say is, I have worked in the publishing industry in its various tentacles and permutations for a long time, and I unequivocally state that downloading “free” books from these sites is stealing from authors, who already have a hard enough time making ends meet. Most of us are below the poverty line, we do not have health insurance unless a spouse has a 9 to 5 job and sometimes not even then, and we have kids to feed too.

Still, that’s not the issue.

I asked above, why is taking a book from a brick and mortar store (used, indie, new, what-have-you) without paying for it “shoplifting” but downloading a book off the ‘net is “okay” and “in a gray area”? How does one make that judgment? What about downloading a book from one of those sites makes it “different” and less reprehensible than shoplifting?

If you buy a pack of smokes at your corner store, and walk out with a whole carton stuffed under your shirt, does it really matter whether you charge your friends or give them away for free? It’s still stealing. You can’t say—“well, I paid for that first pack, and I’m not actually making any money…” 

Taking stuff you know was stolen or illegally copied is still stealing, whether there is money exchanged or not.

Reading a book in its entirety in the bookstore might deprive an author of a couple of dollars—but honestly, how many people are prepared to sit in B&N for three hours reading a book? It is not the same as walking out of the store with a hundred copies of that book to give (or sell) to passers by on the street.

People who engage in this type of file sharing are really shooting themselves in the foot. Authors should see writing as a career, not a hobby. They should be paid. The entire publishing industry, from agents to editors, is geared toward vetting an author’s work to ensure it is of decent quality. Does anyone really want the world of literature (genre or otherwise) to descend to the miasma of craptitude that is Youtube? How many miles of shit do you have to wade through on that site before you find that one, gleaming gem? Remove the money, remove that element of professional standard, and that’s all it will be. Readers will be cofronted with one giant slushpile, and these thieves will have no one to blame but themselves.

Christ, it’s hard to get published for a REASON. You have to go through so many layers of quality control before your product is deemed fit for purchase. Hell, no one’s gonna get a gastrointestinal infection from uninspected fiction, but wouldn’t you rather read words that someone other than the author and his/her mother feels is acceptable?

I will always write. It would be really nice if I could make enough money from it to pay for my laptop and internet connection. If I can’t, then I might have to be content with writing only for myself. I can’t be the only author who feels this way.

Candy, my comment wasn’t a summation of your argument, but a summation of many different justifications I’d read here.

~The assumption tends to be “everyone who’s downloaded an e-book won’t be buying a paper copy and won’t ever be buying anything new by that author because they’re dickhead thieves”—~

This isn’t true, and certainly isn’t my opinion or what I’ve said.

No point in repeating myself, again. Besides, Lillith said it better anyway.

I thought I tried to say it several times but I apologize if I wasn’t clear—I’m talking about piracy, not giving a book to your mom, your BFF, etc.

~I thought I tried to say it several times but I apologize if I wasn’t clear—I’m talking about piracy, not giving a book to your mom, your BFF, etc.~

I think it was clear. I thought I was, too, but in case—see above.

Sorry I did not respond sooner.  I went to bed.  Let me address, then, the P2P issue.  I want to make an argument for P2P piracy but need to make 2 assumptions.

Assumption 1:  P2P is not legally right.
Assumption 2:  What is legal does not always determine the ethics of a community.

Turning to one of Lilith Saintcrow’s analogies that p2P sharing is the equivalent of taking a paycheck.  If by having the paycheck stolen, one would get three paychecks in return, wouldn’t you start offering up the paycheck to the first taker?  Essentially, that is Cory Doctorow’s argument that by offering his work up freely in the digital format, he is increasing the demand for his paper books.

For P2P piracy to have economic harm, it would have to be proven that every foregone sale because of a download (I just don’t believe that every download represents a foregone sale and I won’t be convinced of that) outweighs the increased demand for the paper books.  I don’t know that we have evidence of this.  conversely, we do have some authors (mostly SFF authors) who believe that P2P is like some kind of grassroots marketing endeavor.  I can’t remember the name of the SFF author who recently set up his own bit torrents for his books.

I would argue that the larger name authors like Nora Roberts has had greater economic harm from P2P piracy than struggling authors because the demand for her paper books is already quite large where new or midlist authors have a small demand and thus P2P may help to increase the demand and, to return to Saintcrow’s analogy, increase the paycheck rather than diminish it.

I kind of think it boils down to this:

1.  P2P sharing on a mass scale is legally wrong.

2.  What economic harm occurs is questionable.

3.  If it could be empirically proven that p2p actually increases sales versus decreasing sales, would it be morally wrong?

~2.  What economic harm occurs is questionable.~

Angela gave just one example:

~Earlier this week I emailed an author whose book released from NY in print on Tuesday. It had been on the file sharing site since the beginning of February. A whole month before anyone in the general public had a chance to buy it.~

It certainly can’t be proven that anyone who downloaded that book illegally, even before it was on sale, would have bought it. It can’t be proven that anyone who downloaded it illegally did or didn’t go out and buy it afterward. But odds are some who downloaded it would have bought it if the opportunity to get it for free wasn’t there.

When a hundred of my titles are available on a piracy site, and I can see they’ve been downloaded multiple times—often over 50 times per title—I’m pretty confident I’m being harmed financially.

When comments on these piracy sites run to: Oh thanks! Now I can spend my money on something else! It indicates this person’s happy to take the work for free and NOT buy the book. That says financial harm to me.

Like Nora and Angela, and others are saying:

I’m not trying to crack down on people who are making mix CDs for Granny’s birthday.  I don’t think making a copy of an e-book to give to your best friend is as bad as killing a kitten.

And reading a book in a bookstore, which has been set up with comfy chairs and a coffee bar, is kind of a stacked deck, as far as moral problems go.  The bookstore created a reading environment to get you to do exactly that, and are willing to consider the used books as a cost of doing business. 

But between the library degree and the writing, I’ve developed a really healthy respect for “intellectual property”.  If I casually violate the rights of others, it’s hypocritical to demand respect for my rights.

I suspect the writers posting here, as creators of copy-able material, have a much narrower gray area on this issue, then someone who is exclusively a consumer.  I know I am very cautious about copying anything.  Even if it’s small and without risk. 

Right now, I am waffling on making another dupe of a third hand mix tape that has Lorne Greene, singing the theme from Bonanza.  Is it way cool?  Hell, yeah.
Is he dead?  Is this out of circ?  Is there a lot of royalty money involved?  No, no and no.

Is it mine?  Also, no.  I know what the laws is.  If I am willing to copy it, I also have to recognize the fact I am outside of my legal rights, and admit that I’ve crossed a line.  Probably a totally unimportant line that means nothing to the majority of people.  But I can’t always be moving the boundary of the gray area to accommodate my actions.

When you are a potential victim, you do not see this as a victimless crime, or talk so much about ‘the industry’, ‘the publishers’ and the evils of the RIAA (which writers do not belong to, because we are not part of the recording industry).  A little sharing is not the end of the world.  But wholesale piracy will hurt the creators of the books without making a dent in the faceless ‘publishing industry’.

If we seem to be all about the bottom line, and getting your last nickel?  The industry will go on and on.  But writers are a replaceable.  They’ll dump us, if we don’t earn out, and get someone with better sales numbers.  It sucks.  But it’s the truth.

Just a quick comment before my internet shuts down for the day because I’m a loser on a deadline…

I filled out a complaint form at one of those sites on Friday. By today, all 19 of my books that they’d had posted were gone and I had a note of apology. 

So some of these sites are, at least, serious about trying to prevent abuse by their users.

—It indicates this person’s happy to take the work for free and NOT buy the book. That says financial harm to me.—

Just to quickly say I second that. Those message board comments where people request a new title that they’re just dying to read, and then profusely thank the person who post it, say the same thing to me.

I am not by any means saying every person who downloads would buy the book. But these types of situations make it appear as if at least some would.

I filled out a complaint form at one of those sites on Friday. By today, all 19 of my books that they’d had posted were gone and I had a note of apology.

So some of these sites are, at least, serious about trying to prevent abuse by their users.

My experience with a good majority of the file sharing and hosting sites has been that when you ask for specific files to be removed, they will quickly do so. One hosting site (which is not a file sharing site but a site where files can be hosted) sent me a long email letting me know they would happily work with me to remove our copyrighted material.

“If it could be empirically proven that p2p actually increases sales versus decreasing sales, would it be morally wrong?”

Jane, first let me say, I LOVE this question.  It’s a really good one.

If p2p were proven to empirically increase sales, then authors would grant the rights to do it, as a default.  Actually, we would release the book ourselves for free, and tell you to copy it.  We like sales.

If the creator gives you the right to copy, it is not a violation of copyright.  No ethical problem.

If the creator does not give you the right?  Ethics come into play.  While we’re not going to mind buzz, word of mouth, and sharing the book with your friends, you cannot take it upon yourself to do grassroots marketing by putting the book on a p2p site.

It indicates this person’s happy to take the work for free and NOT buy the book. That says financial harm to me.

But this presupposes that every download = a foregone sale.  I think that there have been studies showing that people download just to hoard, not because they have any intention of using the digital file.

If the creator gives you the right to copy, it is not a violation of copyright.  No ethical problem.

I agree but with P2P piracy nearly everyone believes that it does economic harm and the question is whether it actually does.  Because, as you say, if it does not, but actually helps, authors would be giving it away for free.  And some authors are because they believe in it form of marketing/advertising.

The example that Angie gave of the advance copy on the file sharing site was what prompted our discussion a week ago (wasn’t it?).  While I agree that is abhorrent, I also think that is an isolated instance and so to use it as an example to prove the economic harm of P2P overall, seems thin.

>>If someone buys 500 books and downloads 10, are they a thief?
If someone downloads 500 books and buys 10, are they a thief?

Well, yes - to both questions.  I confess to being completely bewildered by some of the rationales stated here as to why stealing is okay.  If you walk into a store and buy 500 books but steal 10, you bet you’re a thief.  If you buy 500 t-shirts at the Gap and steal 10, you bet you’re a thief.  Why is it okay to steal from the author and the publisher, but not from the company that makes t-shirts?  I have a much smaller budget, let me tell you, than the Gap, and am not insured against loss. 

Newer authors live or die by sales figures, and the thieves are cutting into our chance to ever get another contract, not to mention costing us the rent and grocery money. 

Also, to the “if they try it, they’ll later buy it, theory” - how does that possibly make illegal activity acceptable?  I could argue all day long in court that I stole that Gap t-shirt to try it out, and now I’m WAY more likely to buy Gap t-shirts in the future, and I’d still be guilty of theft.  If that’s the rationale, the next time I’m in NYC, I’ll “try out” a nice bracelet from Tiffany’s . . .

It’s theft, real theft.  And it hurts real people - those of us who are working so hard, in an already ridiculously tough industry, to make a living.

~But this presupposes that every download = a foregone sale~

No, but every download is a potential sale. And many—just read the message boards—who download would have been a sale but for the piracy.

Angela, and I believe Leslie, cited other examples. So it’s not isolated. Angela stated she sees examples like the one I quoted from her regularly.

If we’re talking specifically about finanacial harm, I can only tell you I piracy has cost me bundles.

“(Cory Doctorow address this issue in ”Pushing the impossible.” I will be linking a whole lot to Cory Doctorow in this comment. And I mean a WHOLE LOT.)”

Candy,

I read this too, with interest.  But although Doctorow writes in genre, he writes in a different genre, with a different audience, and different marketing and distribution.  I may be wrong, but I believe a larger percentage of SF comes out first as hardback, possibly because of book club sales.  This makes the initial release prohibitively expensive for some fans.  It might mean a free e-release generates buzz for the paperback release.

SF is also a smaller market.

So, while it is working for him, we have no evidence so far that it will work in romance, since we go straight into pb and then disappear.

Just being devil’s advocate (sorry, can’t help it).  When it comes out, how much of your book will be excerpted online?  Do you have enough confidence in free downloading to want to be on the front lines as an example?

And, I must also admit that this is a trick question from a librarian.  You are writing non-fiction.  Your sales model will be different from both SF and romance, and will have to have obsolescence of information built into it.  And while your library sales will be larger, if this is used as a reference, the number of people who want to read cover to cover might be smaller.  So how much sampling should they get to do for free?

Sales, marketing and useage is complciated stuff, and all books are not equal.

After reading through all the comments, I have a comment that is tangential, but since I had a strong reaction whenever I read the advice I decided to share my bit of enlightenment with you all.

I live in a very rural area in the Medium Deep South. 

Astoundingly enough, our local library does have a romance section - except it’s on carousel racks, only roughly alphabetized and most of the stuff is a million years old with no new stuff coming in in the last 6 months that I could detect (except for one lonely Harlequin Everlasting that must have been a donation). 

I’ve read all the good stuff and some not so good stuff, and since I’m a hoarder/pack rat have bought most of it now, because I never know when a little snippet will come into my brain requiring immediate re-reading, be it from a book I loved or one that was really only mediocre (yeah, I’m wired funny that way).  Since pretty much all the romance books available in our library are series and old series at that, I bought these books used, which didn’t give the authors a red penny, but I did find some interesting new authors both in the paper library and the online version, which has led me to purchase new books by some of them. 

The closest brick and mortar bookstore is 60 miles away.

I’m not mentioning this to justify people downloading ‘free’ e-books.

I wanted, however, to point out that while in big towns and cities the library might be the to-go place for testing out current and new authors, I cringe when that argument is held up as a feasible way for everybody to test the waters, because in my neck of the woods that just isn’t true and I know libraries around here that stock NO romance whatsoever.

Amazon.com/Bamm.com/Fictionwise/e-pubs/
BetterWorld.com/Abebooks/Alibris are my only choices and not much trying out can be had that way, besides excerpts on e-pub and author websites.

[Another tangent, I’ve bought e-books after reading excerpts only to find out that said excerpts were often better written and edited than the rest of the book, leaving me feeling like a heel for having fallen for an inferior product. Savvy advertising on the part of the e-pubs, but only for the short term, because this middle-aged broad learns from her mistakes!]

I’ve downloaded a few ‘free’ e-books since my re-entry in the romance reading world in June of 07.  I now own all of those in paper, because e-books are hard on the eyes and attention span and a real book is made of paper as far as I’m concerned.  In every case, the paper copy came from a used bookstore since the titles were no longer available in print.  I’ve found some new authors through a couple of anthologies and have purchased new titles by them.

Am I the typical ‘thief’ decried in the comments?  I don’t know.  I know I wouldn’t have tried out these new authors if I hadn’t had some way to sample their wares (be it library, online library, online sites, etc.).

While I saw people stating that they weren’t talking about the ‘little’ people, only the nefarious mass downloaders, I have also seen the same people saying in the strongest language that any downloading is theft and morally corrupt and black and white and to be decried and never to be engaged in.  I’m afraid you cannot have it both ways.

This concludes my morning observations.

I would argue that the larger name authors like Nora Roberts has had greater economic harm from P2P piracy than struggling authors because the demand for her paper books is already quite large

Where exactly do you think publishers get the money to take a chance on new authors? Most books make little or no money. A great deal of books lose money for the publisher, and often even these authors are given the opportunity for second or third books because of one Nora Roberts, Stephen King or JK Rowling. So when someone steals from Nora, they’re making it harder for smaller authors, too.

Essentially, that is Cory Doctorow’s argument that by offering his work up freely in the digital format, he is increasing the demand for his paper books.

What about authors whose books are only available in ebook format?

The closest brick and mortar bookstore is 60 miles away.

See, now that just pisses me off. I live three hours through rough, unpopulated country from the nearest bookstore. I’m stuck with what’s on the rack at the drug and grocery stores. I have never—nor will I ever—downloaded a pirated book. That’s what fictionwise, mbam and amazon are for.

Kis,

I feel for you. I thought I lived in the sticks.

I was not including my comment on distance and lack of romance in libraries to justify downloading, I was pointing out that not everybody can just try out books for free at the local library before buying or easily browse at a bookstore.  Please read the remarks in the context they were written - namely, my refutation of the assertion that trying out books before buying is easily achieved by everybody!

I debated whether I should include my ‘confession’ of 11 downloaded e-books of paper books which I came across while googling a completely unrelated subject - all now legally purchased and with additional (revenue generating) titles bought by new to me authors - in the same post as the rest and see from your out of context comments that I should have made a separate post on that matter.

I just cannot get away from the one simple question, guys. What makes it okay to download, and not okay to shoplift? A shoplifter isn’t a “potential” sale or a “foregone” sale. To my mind, that’s splitting hairs AND avoiding the question. If someone was shoplifting T-shirts “just to hoard”, would that be okay? They’d still get just as arrested if they got caught.

So why is it okay for people to shoplift on teh interwebs, but not in a brick and mortar? Especially when there is the excerpt function on Amazon that lets one sample a bunch of books. Or an internet connection where one can look up Smart Bitch/Dear Author/etc. reviews of books and see if they might be to my taste before one orders them from Amazon/Fictionwise/etc. If you’ve got broadband enough to download, you’ve got broadband enough to utilise the tools the industry and the retail outlets have provided so you can check out a book the same way you do in a brick and mortar. And you also have the easy option of returning the item to Amazon if you read a few pages and decide Christ, this sux.

To Norah Roberts: I don’t think I said it better than you—I doubt if I could—but thanks for the compliment. I’m all glowy now.

And *gulp* I am not stoopid, just pre-caffeine. That should read Nora Roberts.

*facepalm*

GrowlyCub,

I did kinda take your remark a bit out of context. Sorry.

And I do think there is a gray area. Not long ago I was considering emailing my mom a copy of an erotic romance I thought she’d enjoy (to prepare her for when my own ER comes out this March—no matter how much I tell her about its graphic nature, I’m not sure she quite gets it). Eventually, I decided to steer her to mbam with a strong rec for the author, more out of a desire to support the author than any ethical problems. Sharing a legally purchased copy with your friends is not the issue here.

I think a lot of authors, when their books go out of print and the rights return to them, would do well to offer those books as free downloads from their own websites. That is a promotional tool. That generates interest for new titles coming out. That is something that will increase sales. It’s the equivalent of handing out free copies at a convention or booksigning.

Illegal downloads from a file-sharing site are like a thug selling bootleg CDs from the trunk of his car. It may generate interest in an artist, but what good does that do the artist if the consumer can just go get the artist’s entire backlist from the same thug next week?

Some here (including GrowlyCub) have claimed to go out and buy the real thing after sampling an illegal download. I wonder how big a percentage of the file-sharing community those people represent. I know not every illegal download=one lost sale. But there are sales lost.

And it breaks my heart to hear about fans who “can’t wait to read so-and-so’s next title, because I just looove her books!!!” but who can’t see fit to put a dollar in that author’s pocket. I hate thinking of people as assholes, but they just make it so hard not to…

sales96: how appropo

If an author like Cassie Edwards takes words from another author or written source and passes them off as her own, it’s stealing.

But if a reader downloads a pirated ebook illegally off the internet, it’s okay.

It’s wrong for authors to steal but it’s okay for readers?

There’s a whole bunch of interesting economic intangibles that are going on within all the industries: books, tv, music, newspapers, etc.  We’ve devalued the value of the arts by a huge increase in supply. 

A long time ago, there weren’t many books, there wasn’t much TV, etc, and because of it, the value for each book was very dear.  But with the advent of gazillions of choices, a book, a TV show, a DVD, a magazine’s—the value of each individual item has been stomped down into the ground.  If a book by Author X is unavailable for me, I can go peruse ten thousand by Authors A-AABBXYYCKHJD, because the supply is so huge.  As consumers we expect low to nil cost on almost everything.  I didn’t buy many CD’s until iTunes, but I’ve now begun buying music again because .99 per song is my price point (and I’ll live with DRM).  $14.99 for a CD was too much for me. 

Books have a high target price for me because—I don’t know why, but I’ve never quibbled about the cost of books—they were rare and precious and they still are.  According to the industry numbers, I’m the exception.

There was an author on the Colbert Report (I think), who I can’t remember, who was talking about that the abundence of supply is going to craporize (my word, not his) most industries, the idea being that when the money goes out of the industry then the quality goes as well.  The gatekeepers to quality are disappearing.  There’s something to that, as what anonymous is alluding to in her post regarding the music industry. 

Last night on somewhere (60 minutes?), there was discussion about the number of individual records sold has gone WAY down.  It doesn’t take near as much to make a #1 hit anymore, because of the whole Long Tail argument and there are millions of songs available, so each song sells less individually, but a gazillion songs are sold, just smaller numbers of each.

And I noticed an announcement that Harper-Collins is giving away entire books online as a promotional opportunity.

So what’s my point?  Authors make crap dollars.  These past few years, we’ve lost a whole lot of truly great authors who will never return because they can’t survive on their writing income.  Consumers are responsible for the drive-down in price, and that genie is gone and not coming back—it’s the world we’re in. 

So, yes, there are consequences to our actions.  A loss of quality, a loss of authors, a loss of the idea of a book being a rare and valuable commodity.  I don’t mind #1 and #2 as much, because the supply is huge, and as a reader I’ll manage, but #3 tears out my heart.

~>>If someone buys 500 books and downloads 10, are they a thief?
If someone downloads 500 books and buys 10, are they a thief?

Well, yes - to both questions.  I confess to being completely bewildered by some of the rationales stated here as to why stealing is okay.~

——————————

This wasn’t me rationalizing that one is considered theft and the other not, or that stealing is okay.  I expect most individuals, who look at those comparisons as the only statement to be judged in a situation to answer “Yes” to both. 

However, I feel that there is more information in those sentences than jumping directly to the idea that if you download even one copy, you are a thief, you are not a fan, and I don’t want you as my customer.  (And yes, this was what was said.)

I’m not, nor is everyone, that reads a copy of a book or listens to a song or watches a movie, without paying, a “thief in customer’s clothing.”  Nor, is every author that has written a bad book that I paid full price for a “thief” or a fraud or a shyster (or even a bad writer) for depriving me of my hard-earned money by selling me a (single) rotten lemon.

Artists are creating a product, and many of them would like to earn a living from it so they can continue to focus on creating products (and maybe those consumers will even turn into “fans”, repeat customers that can’t get enough of what you’re creating).  But, the sense of entitlement I’m reading from some authors is that I should always pay them, even if I don’t like what they’ve created.

And honestly?  I’m tired of getting burned.  (This is the reason why I find a lot of value in sites like this and dearauthor, because they are building trust and credibility with me as a source that will give me a true opinion on a product so I can make a more informed decision on where I spend my earnings.)

Being a season ticket holder for your favorite team can be very exciting and very disappointing.  And very expensive.  You pay to watch your team play, no matter what they produce; a win or a loss.  When I find the emotional and financial burden to be too great, I stop investing in that form of entertainment and move onto another.  I’ve gone through this cycle many times before; with music, movies, gaming, and books (and my home teams that suck, but are genuine athletes and pretty nice guys).

——————-

I had more on this (a lot more, way too much “more”), but it was getting too personal and offering up specific examples, which I think are helpful but not necessarily germane to what I was hoping would be discussed.  This has been helpful in deciding that I am not a true fan by some definitions; maybe I’m a “bandwagon” fan.  I’m only really interested in supporting an artist that provides me with a product I find value in.  When I buy copies or subscriptions to give to others for an artist or product I like, it is mainly for greedy and selfish reasons.  I’m hoping others will like it too, become a “fan”, and support that artist, specifically so that artist does well, and is encouraged to create more of what I like.  For me.  (Really, for me.  It’s nice if the author derives satisfaction from a job well done, and if others also enjoy the product, but my goal is for my personal gain.)

But if an artist can not understand that may entail me accessing something that deprives you of a potential sale (while offering you a chance for potential future sales), and instead views that as me “cheating” you out of a sale, “stealing” the shirt off your back and the food from the mouths of your children, breaking into your home and taking a cut of your paycheck, then, yeah, I guess this casual fan is not the customer for you and you are not the vendor for me.

This is one of those times where I wish I would have kept my mouth shut (will I never learn?), because I think I’m going to be left with a bad taste in my mouth.

I want my blissful ignorance back.  But you can’t get refunds for that.  (Or ebooks.  Hah!  I can still laugh, that’s a good sign, right?)

Jane wrote:
“Things that I think contribute to epiracy, though, are publishers prices as too high and not all books being made into ebooks and DRM.”

Jane, my experience contradicts the second half of your argument. Of my books published by Berkley, the ones widely available at pirate sites are those released as e-books.  The ones not yet available in that format aren’t being pirated.

In a way, I sympathize with those wanting to find shades of gray in this issue. No one likes being called a thief. When an activity that is easy to indulge in is criminalized, you have a lot of people doing it anyway—and justifying it in all sorts of ways. They know they aren’t really bad people, so they resent having that action classed as morally wrong. They argue that either the behavior isn’t wrong (“I buy the books later”) or that someone else needs to assume responsibility for the wrong behavior—the publishers, maybe, who are charging too much, or putting books out in the wrong format, or are somehow contributing to the problem by, uh, not stopping it.

This argument puts the victims at fault. Publishers and authors should find a way to make piracy work for us, rather than complaining that we’re being ripped off.

But we are being ripped off. And the “blame the victim” mantra has been used before . . . we’ve all heard that cliché, right? “She was asking for it.”

If some authors want to provide their work for free, as Mr. Doctorow has, that’s their choice. I’ve got a free short story up on my website. But I’m not going to offer any full-length books for free, and anyone who makes that offer on my behalf is stealing from me, my agent, and my publishing house.

Note to those who believe that buying the book later makes it okay to download it illegally first: yes, this means everyone eventually gets paid. But your actions support the piracy sites, too.

Second note, this one to the person who likes Amazon Shorts: they offer a decent deal to writers, so download away there with the happy awareness that you’re helping, not hurting.

Last note (I promise)—to anyone who wondered how pirated e-books become available before the print book is out: a reputable e-book site had my Jan. release up for sale a full month early (it was supposed to be released in print and e-book format at the same time.) I let my editor know, and she saw that they pulled it until the official release date, but this isn’t uncommon. 

Eileen

P.S: (Had to make this a post script—I promised no more notes!) I chuckled when I read Nora’s comment about the weeks it takes to write something.  Try months. For me, anyway. I can no more explain why it takes me months than she could explain why her process is so much faster than mine, but as a reader I’m grateful that she is so quick compared to me.

a loss of the idea of a book being a rare and valuable commodity.

I actually have never held books to be rare and valuable commodities.  Except when they actually are rare and valuable commodities i.e., first edition books of Tolkien’s LOTR trilogy and so forth.  I think the very term “mass market” negates the term “rare”.

Just being devil’s advocate (sorry, can’t help it).

Isn’t that what we are doing here?  All kind of being devil’s advocates?  Yes, P2P is stealing.  It is illegal.  Some can’t move beyond that.  My argument is that if Cory Doctorow’s theory is true: free release of digital copies helps the market for print books, then SHOULD P2P be stealing.  That’s the grey area that I think some are talking about.

I also think that P2P piracy is very different than plagiarism because plagiarism is about intellectual and creative honesty.  I see P2P piracy as more about economic honesty. 

Note that I am not making the argument that P2P sharing is legal but putting the question out there as to whether it should be legal.

There was an author on the Colbert Report (I think), who I can’t remember, who was talking about that the abundence of supply is going to craporize (my word, not his) most industries,

I remember that guy. It was not just the abundance of supply, but the abundance of free supply. I agreed with him wholeheartedly. People are so blinded by the idea of getting stuff for freeeee!!!!, that they don’t realize they’re seriously jeopardizing the quality of what they’re getting. Not just books or music, but things that are arguably important to everyone—like the freaking news. Do we want journalists who view journalism as a hobby?

As a Canuck, I used to hate most CBC shows because of their shitty production values. The last thing I want is for the whole North American book industry to go the same way—where the only way literature can even exist is through government subsidies, and because books don’t make any money, no decent money is invested in their production.

It makes me sad to think that the work of an author, already valued at (for print books) a tiny percentage of a usually reasonable sale price, is of no value at all to some people. Would they work for nothing?

nothing85: how appropo, again

My argument is that if Cory Doctorow’s theory is true: free release of digital copies helps the market for print books, then SHOULD P2P be stealing.

Of course it should be considered stealing!

Truth is, Cory Doctorow’s hypothesis has yet to be proven. He should be commended for being the one to try it. I think if he does prove that free copies=more sales, many authors will gladly follow his lead. But it should be a choice the author and publisher make, not one that gets made for them by people who take what does not belong to them.

And I’ll ask again, what if most of the sales an author can expect are in ebook format? What about books that never make it from digital to print? How, exactly, is this behavior boosting their sales?

While I wholly agree with the illegality and the general no-good-nik-ness of download book sites, I am still confused as to why buying remaindered books or buying used is both legal and, apparently, considered ethical.  Don’t they occupy the same ‘grey area’ and have the same financial impact on an author’s sales figures?  While I would hate to lose a source or two of legal and less expensive books, remaindered books also rob sales from authors, as there may be hundreds or thousands of them sold across the country and I don’t think those sales are counted in an author’s official sales figures, nor do authors receive any compensation from those sales. The sales give financial boosts to the booksellers and to the publishers, who are not then stuck with an unsold inventory of goods, but nothing for the authors, except the potential goodwill of readers towards the authors’ future books.  Because the reader already has a physical copy in their hands, there is not even the potential that they will go out and buy a different edition of the same book to generate income for the author.  The problem with the accounting for used book sales is obvious.

I seems to me that if the arguments against download sites rest primarily on the financial harm done to the author, then other practices that cause the same harm ought to be equally condemned.  They are not, however, condemned. Buying remaindered, discounted or used books seem to be encouraged as useful methods for people with limited resources to acquire reading material. Am I missing something?

I am not arguing for downloads from pirate sites to be considered ‘ethical’, as they are, for me at least, clearly not.  I wish someone smarter than I am would articulate an argument against pirating sites that does not rest on the same reasons that are ignored in other, legal, practices.

kis - I agree that when ebooks become the major source of revenue for authors, Doctorow’s hypothesis will no longer be valid.  (of course, I would argue that when ebooks become the major source of revenue for publishers that authors’ royalties should increase according to the lower production costs, but that’s an issue for another time).

But, regardless of legalities, piracy (like poor) will always be with us.  All the claims of theft won’t change that.  Neither will DRM, lack of digital format for books, and high prices. 

We can make a difference talking about the impact of it as some of the authors have done here, but I don’t think that is going to be sufficient to stem piracy.  Other actions will have to be taken whether it is to differently monetize books or to make ebooks priced sufficiently to encourage legitimate purchasing versus piracy, allow some legitimate sharing (ie. with your BFF), allow the book to be resold through a secondary market and so forth. 

I totally understand the authors’ POV here.  I do.  I am just offering another argument, however, unfavorable.

Gwynnyd is saying what I am trying to say.  I would add, in response to Christine Merril’s argument above about library purchases. The Strand sells review copies to libraries.

“a loss of the idea of a book being a rare and valuable commodity.

I actually have never held books to be rare and valuable commodities.”

But the original quote was about the intellectual property, and not the paper container holding it.  I didn’t understand the distinction myself until just recently.  I was just sitting at a keyboard, doodling along.  Wrintin’ books.  Havin’ fun.

And then the books started to sell, and I started to read contracts.  And then, Neil Gaiman published something on his blog about writers needing to get a will immediately, to secure their intellectual property rights, in case they die unexpectedly.

????????????

Up to that moment, I thought I was just goofing around.  And then I did some math.  If you manage to have multiple titles, and a moderately successful career, you might still be limping along below the poverty level, year to year.

But if you add up the total worth of the intellectual property, over the course of the protected coopyright period (which extends past the author’s death) your intellectual property is worth considerably more than your house.  It has the potential, if guarded and correctly managed, to be the most valuable thing you will ever own.

And it is something writers have that readers don’t.  You didn’t make up the story.  You can’t change the story or repackage it.  You just bought the container it was in.

It’s not that we will automatically and forever object to legal p2p.  It’s just that the decision to make it legal has to come from the creators, and not from reader demand, because we have the most to lose.

If anyone writing romance wants to step forward with 6 month’s or a year’s worth of work, and give it away as a test case, please step up and say so.  I am interested to see if it works as well as it seems to have for a few authors in different genres.  But I am not going to volunteer.

So take the financials out of the equation.

If you steal and no one gets hurt (physically or financially), is it still stealing? YES! You took something that didn’t belong to you.

Okay, I’ve gotten about a 1/3 of the way through the comments, and this one kept popping up to irritate me like sand in a not right place after *hawt* sex:

To paraphrase:
“You can get books for free at the library.”

NO!! Those books are not free!  You are just not paying for them at the “point of purchase”. A portion of the taxes you have paid to your governmental body (at least in the US) has gone to the library. You have prepaid for those books thanks to the collective bargaining power of your community and have gotten a whole bunch of them.  I’m a librarian and I really don’t think this is a well-understood point, mainly because library budgets keep getting slashed as we’re expected to provide tons of services for “free”.  Just because you don’t pay for something at the time you make use of it doesn’t mean it’s free.

Okay, off my soapbox other than to say there’s a reason I’m a full-time librarian in addition to being a writer, and the librarian gig is not a huge moneymaker in the first place.

>>While I wholly agree with the illegality and the general no-good-nik-ness of download book sites, I am still confused as to why buying remaindered books or buying used is both legal and, apparently, considered ethical.  Don’t they occupy the same ‘grey area’ and have the same financial impact on an author’s sales figures?<<

The reason reselling a used/remaindered book is legal is called The Doctrine of First Sale. Once you have spent your money for a physical copy of an item (a book, a CD, a DVD, a VHS tape, or a Louis Vuitton pocketbok, even) you can do anything you want with it because that particular copy belongs to you. The manufacturer has no further legal control over what happens to that particular physical item.

Again, I’m not a lawyer, and this isn’t legal advice.

I still have a few comments to read but I wonder:

Would educating the reading community on the economic impact these ‘file sharing’ sites have on the very authors they luuuurve, help with curbing the abuse?

Because I find that a lot of readers don’t realize that many of their favorite authors have a limited window to swim or sink (category writers), and therefore they truly don’t understand how they may be shooting themselves on the foot.

Where ethical and/or legal considerations may never cross their minds, perhaps self interest would drive the point home.

>>But, the sense of entitlement I’m
reading from some authors is that I should always pay them, even if I don’t
like what they’ve created.<<

Well, again, I don’t understand how not wanting to pay for something you don’t like means it’s okay to steal another person’s work.  And I’m not directing this personally, just trying to understand.  If I don’t like that t-shirt from the Gap in my original example, I take it back and get a refund.  Same goes with books and bookstores.  I have returned several research books to amazon, for example, because they weren’t what I wanted.  Easy, peasy, they even give you the downloadable mailing form. 

But what I *don’t* do is rationalize stealing the t-shirt from the Gap because I probably won’t like it anyway.  Nobody says readers should pay for books they don’t like - read a chapter excerpt online or take it back to the bookstore, by all means.  But don’t steal it. 

On just a single one of these sites, I just found more than 75 copies of each of my new books had already been given away for free.  Just a single site.  And I know the wise and wonderful readers here are likely to buy an author they love.  But are the majority of people?  Why bother to spend the $6.99 when you’ve already read the book and shared the file with a few dozen of your closest friends? 

If you don’t like it, please get a refund.  Don’t buy any more.  But “it might be not to my taste” isn’t a justification for stealing a book, any more than it is for stealing that t-shirt.

We do get paid for remaindered books. It’s not as big a chunk as for a full sale, because of the price point, but we get paid. If the books weren’t remaindered, they’d be shredded. Better a smaller royalty than none at all. And they’re not remaindered until the publisher feels the book has run its course in sales in that format.

A paper book can be lent to your mama, your pal, turned in to the used book store, put in your garage sale. No, the author isn’t going to get paid for the number of times it’s read. That’s not what we’re asking for. That used book isn’t going to be read hundreds of times by hundreds of different people.

Just one of my titles on one piracy site has been downloaded over 400 times. No paper book is going to hold up to that kind of use.

I’m perfectly happy to consider the—legal—lending and selling of used books as a kind of promotion, as a way of gaining potential new readers. Of allowing readers who just can’t afford the cost of a new books to enjoy my work.

I’m not perfectly happy to consider the—illegal—uploading and downloading, of my books so literally thousands of people can read my work without paying for it in the same light. I’m not happy to know there are people scanning my paper novels and putting them out there.

>>But, the sense of entitlement I’m
reading from some authors is that I should always pay them, even if I don’t
like what they’ve created.<<

Yes, you should, because you took the product. Don’t like the product? Return it, or turn it in to a used book store to recoup some of your loss.

This isn’t entitlement, it’s life.

I’ve bought a lot of things, including books, that I wasn’t satisfied with. That doesn’t mean the next time I get to take it without paying.

Again, the publisher is totally at fault here.

eBooks that I have seen are not returnable.

NO!! Those books are not free!  You are just not paying for them at the “point of purchase”.

And I was probably one of the ones with the bad wording.  Mia maxima culpa, because I should know better.

Writers don’t object to libraries, because libraries buy a lot, they buy consistantly, and they replace things as they wear out. 

If you are in s small town, check to see if your library has a system or consortium that it uses for interlibrary loans.  My last public library job was in a town of a couple hundred people, and the library was about the size of a doublewide trailer and had no romance.  But we also had a truck making the rounds every day, so we could swap materials easily with about a dozen other, larger libraries.  And there are ways to get materials from outside the system, and even outside the state.  Ask your librarian about it.

As Kelly pointed out, you already paid for the right to do this.  These are your tax dollars at work.  It’s totally legal and author friendly.

There’s an old maxim in the labor movement that “Labor is entitled to all it creates.” That’s ultimately what this comes down to, for me.

If I write something and I decide the best thing I can do with it is to put it on eParasite or whatever the hip file-sharing website of the month is, fine. That’s my decision. It’s my work.

However, if I create something and decide that I want to sell it for $10 a copy at my local bookstore, that’s also my choice.

You know who’s choice it shouldn’t be?

Anyone who’s not me.

Personally I’d love to see a day when we got rid of publishers, record labels, and movie studios and we had a direct relationship between producers and consumers in the entertainment industry. Sadly that day hasn’t happened yet. But you know what we don’t need? Another layer of fucking parasites screwing over the working men and women who create the product.

Interestingly enough, the folks I know who champion all sorts of piracy and whatever Bay-Area NewSpeak praising internet theft are generally folks who don’t actually make a living creating art. Yet they can come up with all sorts of justifications as to why other folks should labor for their entertainment without compensation.

Don’t like the product? Return it, or turn it in to a used book store to recoup some of your loss.

This isn’t entitlement, it’s life.

I’ve bought a lot of things, including books, that I wasn’t satisfied with. That doesn’t mean the next time I get to take it without paying.

Exactly. We are not asking for anything other than to not have our work ripped off and shoplifted. I don’t see what is so wrong about authors not wanting a book that took a long time to write (go type 80K words, then type them again to account for revisions, then type them again to account for proof pages etc.) being shoplifted over the frocking Internet. We heavily invest our time, our emotions, our lives into these products that give you pleasure, open up your world, maybe teach you something or give you a different view of a problem—or just plain entertain you. We love doing it, but we are just like you—we don’t enjoy being stolen from. If you don’t like the product, don’t buy it or get a refund once you decide you don’t like it.

But don’t say “I didn’t like it, or I might not like it, and that absolves me of any responsibility for stealing it.” Again, if you’ve got the bloody broadband to download it, you have many different legal ways of sampling a bit of a book to see if it’s to your tastes.

And I can’t help but notice here how the argument for downloading keeps shifting and changing shape. How is this downloading acceptable and “in a gray area” when shoplifting isn’t? Nobody’s answered that yet.

The first three paras of that should have been marked as a quote. Jeez, I’m 0 for 10 today, aren’t I.

>>But, the sense of entitlement I’m
reading from some authors is that I should always pay them, even if I don’t
like what they’ve created.<<

Exactly.  This is a career—this is a business.  You want to come work for me for free?  I didn’t think so.  But those who download illegally are asking the author to work for free.

If I walk into a restaurant and order something new, just because I don’t like it doesn’t mean I get it free—it was my choice to try it.  But I’m not going to ask the waitress to give me my meal free after I’ve eaten it. 

Participate in illegal downloading, and you’re stealing from the author and the publisher.  No matter how much one tries to rationalize it, it comes down to the same thing: theft.

Don’t like a book?  Take it back to the store, or just don’t buy any more from that author. 

Books don’t just materialize out of thin air—they take time to write, money to produce.  The author has to eat, pay rent, buy health insurance (if they can), make the car payments just like everybody else.  Our time is money—our time producing the book is money.  The royalties we get are little enough—every theft eats into our ability to get future contracts. 

Yasmine

Again, the publisher is totally at fault here.

eBooks that I have seen are not returnable.

The inherent problem there is that how can the publisher trust that the person “returning” the ebook has removed it from their computer.

For all the publisher knows the reader bought it, uploaded it to the file sharing site and now wants their money returned.

I understand the frustration with not being able to return ebooks, it is a problem, but is it up to the publisher to trust that they haven’t already copied and passed around 1000 copies of that book they bought and returned? Very difficult.

Candy, I understand what you’re trying to say, but from my POV, it’s actually worse than stealing a physical copy of a paper book. Because the theft then spreads so that single copy isn’t depriving any one customer, but providing thousands of customers with stolen goods. And the creator of the work sees no compensation.

While some may feel having their book downloaded for free is a promotional tool, it should be their choice—not the choice of the consumer. It’s their work. I’ve certainly got no beef with any writer who decides to go that route.

[Again, the publisher is totally at fault here.

eBooks that I have seen are not returnable.]

I’ve returned books that fell short of the mark to LooseID, EC, etc. and received a “credit coupon” for use with another purchase. If I didn’t receive a coupon, I was given the opportunity to get exchange and receive a different book of the same price.

And that’s pretty much the grey area I’m attempting to get people to see—that it’s not quite the same as stealing, because stealing a physical copy deprives other people access to that copy in a definitive way. Downloading doesn’t do it in quite that same fashion.

Candy, I’m not so much seeing a “gray area” here as a nitpicking. There are more ways of stealing than just picking up something and slipping it under your coat. What about white-collar crime or identity theft? I liken this file sharing stuff to shoplifting for a number of reasons, but the argument that it “deprives” someone of a physical copy is kind of a straw man, because this crime really has more in common with identity theft. Mea culpa. I’d be willing to accept that shoplifting isn’t the perfect analogy, but I think the question still remains valid and the “physical copy” point is a nice distinction but beside the point.

Downloading IS stealing. I’m not arguing that the horse hasn’t left the barn or that individual downloaders should be punished RIAA-style. Clearly we need a more effective way to approach this problem to protect artists. But that way is not going to come about if we keep wasting our breath and energy covering up the fact that downloading is stealing, it’s wrong, and that authors have a right to be paid for work that jumps through all the quality-control hoops to get published, and that publisher made available to the public in good faith.

You say the data is all over the place. Several authors and at least one editor here have offered concrete examples of ebook piracy hurting them economically. To me, that is not data all over the place. That’s people who know the business speaking up.

That being said…(time for a warm fuzzy moment) I see so little flame in this discussion, it’s awesome. We’re all discussing this like adults. It’s nice to see. Let’s hope it spreads like a big gooey virus all over the net.

Hee. And I call myself a pessimist.

eHarlequin

What is your return policy?

As eBooks cannot be physically returned, it is our policy to not offer refunds on successful purchases (i.e. items have been successfully downloaded to your PC or reading device).

Fictionwise

Important Notice: Once an eBook is downloaded, it cannot be refunded or exchanged for another eBook for for a different format of the same eBook.