Smart Bitches, Trashy Books

Props to the Bitches for getting the word out on this and giving authors a way to fight it!

Well, I guess that just proves that piracy exists for just about everything.

My personal opinion is that if someone has downloaded something, they probably wouldn’t have shelled out the money for it had their illegal download not been available… I can see where it’s alarming, but I don’t think it does as much harm as people think.

Then again, I’ve never made anything that someone could pirate… Heh.

I’ve found several of mine via Google Alerts—I recommend that as well.

You know, as hurtful and frustrating this must be for the authors, there is a silver lining to this sometimes.  Authors may not like this, and the music industry certainly hasn’t, but sometimes pirated stuff on the web is actually boosting sales.  Apparently that’s what happened when they started playing hit singles on the radio after all.  There have been times when I’ve gotten music from friends for free and liked it more than I expected to and ended up buying some for myself outright.  Granted, I don’t have the sales statistics to correctly guarantee that this is what everybody does, but I know I’ve done it before, and friends of mine have too.

I got the Google Alert suggestion via the AbsoluteWrite.com newsletter yesterday. Glad to see that it actually works!

..and cheapass readers everywhere are itching to figure out a way to ask for the url without seeming too cheapassy….

Cheapass disclaimer:NOT ME!!! I don’t care for e books, its too hard to lay on the sofa with my desktop and bowl of m&ms to read.

On the upside this reminded me that I wanted to download some ebooks, so someone made some legal money today.

You know, as hurtful and frustrating this must be for the authors, there is a silver lining to this sometimes.  Authors may not like this, and the music industry certainly hasn’t, but sometimes pirated stuff on the web is actually boosting sales.

Taken from a post made 2 hours ago on a file sharing site:

I have many many and more many like these. Lit and Adobe. Ellora, Loose Id, Samhain etc….Foolish me have been buying these for 3 years not knowing about sites like this.

Earlier this week I emailed an author whose book released from NY in print on Tuesday. It had been on the file sharing site since the beginning of February. A whole month before anyone in the general public had a chance to buy it. That pretty much sucks.

This week, I’ve seen several of the February 5th NY releases show up on file sharing sites.

Frustrating stuff. This is actually the topic of the RTB post I didn’t write when it was my turn last week. It’s just too overwhelming for me.

I love google alert.  It’s useful to find pirated copies of your books AND also to find reviews of your books.

I found three reviews for “Hellbaby” that I didn’t even know about!

Minx

Angela - You’ve brought up an interesting point. I’d really like to know how the new books are getting out before public release dates. Someone at the publishing house? The printers? The shippers? Reviewers who received advance copies for marketing purposes? I seem to remember there was quite a row over early release of the last Rowling book. How frustrating that must be for the authors! And piracy in all its forms is a bad thing, IMHO.

Well, I hope that at least the publicity around it ends up bringing more attention and more readers to the people affected!

I hate the pirate sites. While I’m thankful I’m obviously too small to be pirated, it’s still theft from every person in the industry who has worked on any given title as their legal job. I also use the Alerts, and have for well over a year.

There will always be people who want stuff for free, and don’t care who they hurt, the money they take out of some author’s hand, or the editor, or the agent… It’s an endless line of peole who benefit from a single author’s work.  Big names may not care over all when they make high five to six digit incomes, but when you’re earning a tank of gas in a year, yeah, pirating sucks.

The analogy is an example… I’m stuffy and in need of serious sinus killers. *sigh*

Please be VERY careful on these sites if you decide to visit them. Like most sites run by criminals, they are full of very nasty viruses. You can still check them through Google or another search engine, but if you decide to log on, please make sure you’re safe.

Hi Ladies,

I’m the community manager at eHarlequin.com and I just wanted to say thanks, it’s nice to know you have our backs.  Our legal team is aware of the situation, but unfortunately these takedowns can take up to six weeks to finalize. What’s really disheartening is the volume of downloads, in some cases in excess of 250 for some titles!!! 

Jayne

Funny that people will read the bootleg copies that devotedly.  Aside from the fact that it is a stolen copy of something that I generally want the real version of, the grammar and spelling is usually atrocious on bootlegs.  I saw a bootleg ebook once that had the author’s name misspelled multiple times.

and rebyj- pda’s work quite well with m and m’s…the only thing is it creates a bit more eyestrain (to me), and i worry about something happening to my computer and losing all of those precious books i purchased.  But then, if I weren’t so lazy, I could probably make cd copies of the e-books I purchased. 

And all of those cheapskates are missing out on the absolutely free and legal e-books to download- just off the top of my head, project gutenberg and baen books has a bunch for free.  And then for those people who don’t live on a rock in the middle of nowhere (like me- I deal with this by packing ten paperbacks per school term in my suitcase, not bootlegging), there’s this thing called the library. 

my word: without67- ur darn right…god i miss borders down here…

sometimes pirated stuff on the web is actually boosting sales.  Apparently that’s what happened when they started playing hit singles on the radio after all.

Um those singles are just that . . .one or two songs out of about 10 or 12.  And when they’re playing on the radio, you can’t listen at will, you’re at the mercy of the DJ.  So yeah, you hear a song on the radio and go “I want more of that” and run out and buy the CD.  Not really comparable to getting the whole CD for free.

What would be comparable would be a single chapter.

And aren’t excerpts—up in authors’ websites, or through amazon preview, etc—exactly that? For free?

Free promotional material is designed to whet the appetite and “boost sales”—while piracy IS stealing, period.

Not that I have any strong opinions on the matter or anything.

Just go to the local library and you can read the real thing for free!

Although this file-sharing forum started out using the Mills & Boon name, the “sharing” extends to all kinds of romance and publishers. Some of my books on there have never been published as eBooks so I guess they’ve been scanned.

What’s really getting under my skin is the effusive praise for sharing thousands of titles (you are all so generous, thank you, thank you!) and the requests for new and unreleased books. As soon as someone acquires one, up it goes. 

Oh, and they’ve made plans already for saving all the files for when this site is shutdown. They’ll just relaunch somewhere else, under another name, and on it goes. Arrgghh.

~Big names may not care~

Oh, yes, we do.

When someone steals from me, I care. My agent cares because it’s stealing from her. My publisher cares for the same reason.

What I don’t care about is the idea that those who pirate or access pirated books wouldn’t buy it anyway so it doesn’t effect sales. Even if I agreed that was true, so what? Somebody’s still stealing from me.

Can’t pay as an excuse or a reason? Bullshit.

Being poor or strapped for cash doesn’t mean you’re entitled to my work for free any more than you’re entitled to those pretty earrings in the department store unless you pay for them first.

Libraries serve a fine purpose. Use them.

On the “too small to be pirated” issue—small press author I may be, but going by the torrent feeds, there are people out there who like my stuff enough to pirate it. Which is why I get peeved by O’Reilly’s attitude of “you authors who are pirated should be *grateful* you’re being pirated”. I understand the point he’s making, but he’s got a rather unrealistic view of how far down the pecking order you have to be before you don’t get pirated.

Scalzi’s a lot more realistic. There are those who can’t afford to pay, and there are those who can afford to pay but choose not to. I think he’s far too soft on the latter, and yes, the former may well turn into paying customers when they can afford to do so.

All I can offer is proof…

Back in the early days of Audiogalaxy it was an elaborate music pirate site.

Probably one of the best ever created.

When I had complete access to all that music my cd collection grew by at least 1/3. We are talking hundreds of CDs and BIG MONEY for the music industry and the unknown artists I discovered was made off my purchases.

They closed Audiogalaxy down and I really just don’t buy unknown artists anymore.

So people worrying about this really need to think the whole thing through. It is not the same as shoplifting and it is proven it actually benefits new artists. In fact some very intelligent artists have put things on torrent just to get noticed.

~It is not the same as shoplifting~

Here’s why I think it is.

This is my work. I’ve created it, and it’s my livelihood. To make this living, I sell the work—though an agent who gets a commission on the sale—to a publisher. The publisher sells the book to bookstores and other venues. I get a portion of those sales, the publisher gets a portion, and the bookstore gets a portion. This is how we all make our living.

If someone comes into the bookstore, and can’t afford to pay, doesn’t want to pay, or thinks: I wonder if I’d like this book, I want to try it and see—and walks out with the book without paying, it’s shoplifting. This person took a product and didn’t pay for it.

A book in e-form is still the work, still my livelihood, and goes through the same process of sale and publication, just not on paper. Someone takes that book, that product, and doesn’t pay for it stole from me.

Want a free sample? Want to see if my work might be to your taste? Go to my website. I’m happy for you to sample a chapter. I’m equally happy for you to go to the library and borrow the book to check it out. I’m delighted if you go to the used bookstore and find one someone else bought then turned in, and only have to pay a buck for it.

If a new writer, an established writer, whatever, opts to offer their work on a piracy site in hopes to gain new readers, get exposure, that’s their right. It may work, and congratulations if so.

But if I don’t opt to do so, nobody has the right to do it for me. If they do, they’re stealing.

Well Nora, that might also be the same argument that could be used to shut down libraries.

You are not taking human behavior into account and being overly simplistic in the same way the Music Industry is.

Metallica back in 2000 got itself involved in all this mess about piracy over Napster at the time and basically came out looking like greedy assholes. In 2007, Metallica was named #17 on Blender magazine’s list of “biggest wusses in rock” for their public relations fiasco.

All I can say is after Audiogalaxy was shut down I just stopped really trying to hunt down new music.

So I am not arguing about your legal rights to litigate as you wish, I am saying this is absolutely the case of Penny-Wise, Pound-Foolish and that looking like assholes will turn people off to an artist as well as an industry just like I was turned off.

I took my money and did not spend it on music. Like many others did.

~Well Nora, that might also be the same argument that could be used to shut down libraries.~

How? Libraries buy the books. Libraries are legal.

I don’t know about the music industry, or what Metallica did or didn’t do—but I can’t blame them if they came out against the piracy.

How is it looking like an asshole to want to be paid for my work, and to object to an illegal activity? Why are we considered greedy to expect readers to pay for our work?

You should Nora, I’d go and read up on it before stepping into this mess thinking the whole thing is just so simple.

The argument you make seems legit just like it did to Metallica and the RIAA etc etc etc.

But… When have people ever been reasonable? You have heard the Music Industry is in trouble right?

John Scalzi makes some really good consumer behavior/street smart points so I won’t go over it again.

The fact is for me one pirated copy of a song might was making several sales on albums. That’s how it worked for me back in the day.

I don’t think people have changed that much.

I’m confused. Plagiarism is ohmigodbad! and ethically wrong but stealing an entire body of work instead of paying for it is…just the breaks and something authors and publishers should just accept as one of those things?

But… When have people ever been reasonable?

Truer words have never been spoken.

~You should Nora, I’d go and read up on it before stepping into this mess thinking the whole thing is just so simple.~

Teddy, I don’t think you’re understanding me. To me it is simple. Piracy is illegal.

I work, and work hard to produce a book—a lot of other people work hard to publish and distribute that book. We all deserve to be paid.

If some think this makes me greedy or short-sighted, then that’s what they’ll have to think.

I have been lurking in these forums for a while.  I would like to add something to this discussion:  I don’t think I saw anyone mention the fact that in the mind of many readers who purchase digital copies of a book, they strongly believe that it is their right to do with their digital copy as they please.  This means a number of them do visit those sites and “swap” NOT pirate, books with other readers that also purchase digital copies.  As Teddy said, it is not as simple as “they are stealing from me”.

Additionally, in the case of music, it was Napster who put the whole issue of music swapping on the headlines, and ended up with the mother of all lawsuits, but music swapping had been happening online for a long time before they came into the picture.  The only thing Napster did was create a simple and viable peer-to-peer file sharing program.  Before that, people were using FTP, instant messenger software, emails, etc. to do so.  The MP3 compressed file format made it super easy, even in slow connections, to music swap.  I used to belong to the Napster community back in 1998, but when the lawsuits exploded, I stopped.  I now pay for a subscription music service.  I use Rhapsody to Go.

I don’t know if there would be a solution to book swapping, though.  As I said, many readers who paid for their digital copies of books strongly feel that the book is theirs to do as they please, and if they want to swap it is their option.  They don’t consider it that different from what some readers do when they sell their second hand books in eBay or half.com.

Personally, I do purchase all my books.  And if I don’t have the money at one given time, I just make a list and get it when the budget allows.  However, I have a decent paying job, I don’t know where would I stand if I were deprived of reading material for not having the financial means to get it or didn’t have a library available.

I don’t know if there would be a solution to book swapping, though.  As I said, many readers who paid for their digital copies of books strongly feel that the book is theirs to do as they please, and if they want to swap it is their option.  They don’t consider it that different from what some readers do when they sell their second hand books in eBay or half.com.

I had a long conversation with Jane of Dear Author about this earlier in the week, ironically enough. I’m actually fine with the issue of swapping with one or two people, I brought up the same question you raised, about people feeling they “own” the book and should do with it what they like. I an sympathize with that because like Jane says, buying and owning an ebook can be a little draconian—can’t return it, sell it or swap it. I own thousands of ebooks, trust me, I feel that pain.

But how do you control who you’re swapping it to? How do you know the person you swap with isn’t going to swap to someone who’s going to post it on a file sharing site?

Unfortunately, sharing digital files can’t be compared to paper copies, because of the speed at which they can be shared. You don’t have to have read it first to share it, you can buy it and send it to 100 of your friends, or in the case of file sharing, thousands of complete strangers. To do the same with a paper copy, would take months, probably years.

I know some people think I’m exaggerating this, but there was a book of ours shared on a site. I found it after it had only been posted for TWO HOURS. In that two hours, almost 100 copies had been downloaded. The book had only been available for sale for a very short time and that 100 copies equaled 10% of the sales to date. It also equaled almost $250 out of the author’s pocket. Can any of you say you’d be okay with someone walking up to you on the street and stealing the money you had earmarked for your car bill, your insurance, heat, electric or groceries for the month?

It’s really not a victimless crime, unfortunately.

What ever happened to the idea that if you can’t afford something, you did without?
But these people can afford a computer with sufficient memory and the electricity to run it and all that, so I don’t buy the poverty excuse.

I don’t think you’re understanding me.

Oh I do, but this is very much like arguing for teaching only abstinence in school because teenage sex is wrong and immoral.

You are not going to stop that behavior anymore than you or anyone else can stop file sharing.

I am more impressed by people who are smart enough to leverage even bad consumer behavior in a mutually beneficial rational way and make them into opportunities for sales, public education, and eventually profit.

I don’t have the actual statistics handy, but libraries purchase a significant percentage of all books sold.  And they don’t purchase just one book.  They purchase multiple copies of a title, and they replace popular things when they wear out.

So, if people want to go to the library and get stuff for free?  For people that have No money, there is a perfectly good system in place for them to get all the free reading they want.  Writers get paid.  Everybody’s happy. 

And personally, I’m not spending time agonzing over UBS’s and garage sales, because somebody bought those books at least once, and they are only going to sell the one copy they bought.

There are also authors giving books and ebooks away for free.  So it’s not like we are seeking, as an industry, to totally deny access.  We just want control over what goes out.

But the pirate site I visited yesterday, looking for my stuff (which was not there, thank God), had Paypal donation buttons next to the download lists.  These people aren’t sharing with the poor out of the goodness of their hearts.  They are trying to make a fast buck off someone else’s work.  And they are able to make mulitple sales off a thing they only bought once.

It may not seem like a big deal, or a lot of money.  But most writers don’t make that much.  We’re not trying to be assholes about this.  But doing some quick math:

I make something like 40 cents on a paperback.  If someone steals 250 copies, that’s 100 dollars.  So, kind of like taking a week’s worth of groceries out of the mouths of my kids.

Will we survive?  Yeah.  The freezer’s full.  But we’re not talking about loose change. 

The whole ‘wusses and assholes’ arguement is based on the idea that the big guys are making money, and screwing the poor.  But the poor can get their reading free and legal.  And a lot of writers who are getting ripped off have writing incomes near or below poverty level.

And the bottom line is, stealing is still stealing.

The whole ‘wusses and assholes’ arguement is based on the idea that the big guys are making money, and screwing the poor.

This was an observation based on several articles I have read on the whole deal not actually an argument.

The magazine poll of it’s readers and the actions that Metallica took are all facts as are what the public’s reaction was to them.

~Oh I do, but this is very much like arguing for teaching only abstinence in school because teenage sex is wrong and immoral.!

No, it’s not. Sex, even for teenagers, isn’t against the law. Morals and ethics aside, piracy is illegal.

Angela illustrated a very good reason why.

Can’t afford the book? Don’t buy the book. You are not allowed to take it just because you want it.

Okay, Teddy, just for fun, let’s pretend and make this more personal for you, because I’m trying to understand your position.

Let’s say you’re writing a book ;), and that book is contracted by us for publication. And it’s published on February 10th (tomorrow).  Every week, I do a search of a few file sharing sites I know of and kill the links to our books that I see. On Tuesday, after the book has only been available for purchase for a couple days, I find your book on one or more of those file sharing sites (since once it hits one it usually hits the other). People have only been able to buy your book for two days, but you’re telling me you’d want me to ignore any links to the free downloads of your book and let the good people who hang at those sites have it, because otherwise you’d look like an asshole for objecting to file sharing? Is that right?

When fans love your work they tend to want to share their enthusiasm and in doing so usually share their books or their albums.

When you start labeling fans “thieves” you lose them.

Ms. Roberts, one of the pirated sites I’ve seen has been diligently sharing your work, and the work of other authors, with more than 2,000 people in its community ring.

Scalzi’s remarks have a particular logic to them, but when I’ve read commentary on this piracy site like “Oh, thank you so much!  Now that I can get these for free, I can spend my money on other cool stuff,” it makes me less inclined to believe this is the starving poor too destitute to buy a book or spend the gas to drive to the library and check the title out for free.

Hit “send” too soon.

I have to agree with Nora and Angela James.  This is thievery.  I can sell a book to a USB for a few pennies on the dollar.  They in turn may sell it for half the cover price to another person, who might in turn loan it to two or three people.  But when you have a site downloading an author’s entire library of works for 2,000 people to enjoy, that can be immensely damaging, especially to new authors.  I wouldn’t call these fans as much as freeloaders.

Angela,

I got a free book 6 months ago.
In this case it was from Loose Id.
The author and the publisher did not see any money for me getting that book.

I took that book and gave it to the manager of A Different Light.

It’s now one of his best sellers and he wants to do a signing.

I recently took another book I bought and shared it with some friends at The Eagle Tavern and now they are hooked and are buying that authors work and have demanded I bring that author by when she comes into town. So they are fans.

You are stating black and white and I am pointing out the gray area that is all.

~When you start labeling fans “thieves” you lose them.~

If they’re pirating my books, they’re thieves. And I’m happy to lose them.

I’m delighted if a reader loves my work, but I also demand the creator of the work be respected. I spend hours every day at the keyboard. I sweat out a book. And I’m seriously not going to say it’s okay for anyone to feel entitled to take that work illegally just because they want to share. Or because they don’t have the money this week—or want to spend it elsewhere.

~Ms. Roberts, one of the pirated sites I’ve seen has been diligently sharing your work, and the work of other authors, with more than 2,000 people in its community ring.~

Would you e-mail me the site in case my publisher is unaware of it, and not already dealing with the problem?

Teddy, we’re not talking about giving a book to a friend to read. We’re talking about sharing a book, on a pirate site, for thousands of people to download. Those two things aren’t just apples and oranges, they don’t even live on the same planet.

Teddy, you’re talking about a promotional tool in the first instance, and a book you bought in the second.

In neither case is it piracy.

Do you really think the thousands of copies of my books that are pirated every year are taken by people who want to promote me? Or share their pleasure in my books with a couple of friends?

My kids download films from a site that I disapprove of wholeheartedly.  But we always wind up buying the DVD of the pirated stuff because they want a “clean” copy.  If they could buy a clean copy right after they see the movie in the theater, I doubt they would go to the intense hassle of downloading.

But the way I see the film industry—no DVD until the movie theaters make their dime.  And so they wind up pirated.

Luckily, I am no longer poor, so my family can afford to go to the theater and have the high speed computer to download the film right after the kids see it.  And then buy the DVD.

And I suspect I was equally poor as John Scalzi when I was a kid, but I work at knocking the chip off my own shoulder over it.

We used the library until I started working when I was 12, then I could afford to buy my very own books.

My MD BFF and I are echoing each other.

These are the opinions, the stands, of a writer and a publisher.

Piracy harms us.

Nora Roberts said: “Would you e-mail me the site in case my publisher is unaware of it, and not already dealing with the problem?”

Absolutely.  e-mail is on the way now.

I think this will not go away by simply closing down a few web sites.

I think it is best to find a creative way to use it as marketing tool or provide something better to control it with.

“promotional tool”

I prefer “promotional pig” but OK.

Maybe it won’t go away, but that doesn’t mean we should accept or ignore the problem.

Promotion? Again, that’s not what it’s about.

Some of these sites—that I know of—have many of my titles listed. But let’s say ten titles. The site offers ten of my titles—and we’ll stick with paperbacks at $7.99 retail—to it’s ring of 2,000.

I’d get about $1.20 per book in royalties. Times ten, we’ve got $10.20. If half of the people on the ring take those ten titles, that’s $10,020 stolen from me.

Believe me when I say piracy costs me much more than this, every year. It’s also costing my agent her commission on that, and my publisher their payment.

It’s wrong.

I’d just like to say something about the comment that if you call fans who steal an artist’s work “thieves,” that you’ll alienate the fans. Personally, as a fan who pays for various artist’s work, I’m not alienated by an artist calling a thief a thief.The rest of the “fans” who want something for nothing should suck it up.

My spaminator: took24
No, I swear I didn’t take any!

we’re not talking about giving a book to a friend to read

Well, I still think cracking down on something the wrong way can hurt you. Metallica was seen as attacking their fans and they paid for that.

I am very diligent with my ebooks and no I do not hand them around or anything. Even if I get a free review copy I still go and purchase the ebook when it comes out. I go so far as to buy the paperbacks when they get published because I do want the epublisher and author to get their money and create more.

So I am all about the artist getting paid but I also really caution people when getting all upset about pirating to think it through and be clear who and what they are talking about.

Even back in the day I got pirated music I still went and bought the CDs. I think most people who respect the artist do.

My kids download films from a site that I disapprove of wholeheartedly.  But we always wind up buying the DVD of the pirated stuff because they want a “clean” copy.

IMO, a movie is something people usually watch over and over again, so it’s nice to own a version where you don’t see the occasional head pop up as someone goes to the washroom.

With a book, people rarely—or at least I rarely—reread it, unless it’s an author I worship, like SEP.  So, these people are probably reading the book once, then moving onto the next pirated book.

Bernita said,

What ever happened to the idea that if you can’t afford something, you did without?

Exactly.

If you are only a ‘fan’ when you can get it for free, then you are not so much a fan as you are a free loader.

Free stuff given willingly by the publisher/writer is an effective marketing tool/strategy. Word of mouth (i.e., the lending of one copy to a few friends to introduce them to a new to them writer), also extremely effective.

But I don’t see how file sharing, and more so to the degree people in the know (Angela James, for example) have pointed out, can be NOT considered stealing.

Is it going to happen? Yes, along with many other petty crimes. Does that make it any less illegal or any less wrong? No.

I see the gray in many areas of human behaviour, but stealing is stealing, and therefore wrong, period, no matter how often it happens.

Perhaps I’m too old fashioned in my views on this, but if so, I don’t care.

I see it as stealing.
I’m in the group of people who have a long list of books that I have in my purse that I have to check off slowly as I can afford to get them. Some new, some used. I don’t use a library because I keep what I read and never wanna give it back if I check it out lol. Yes, I am a book ho.

Don’t anyone shoot me or anything but do any of you think that the public perception of the value of e-books affect this at all?

I mean, I have bought one e-book and I won one in a contest somewhere.. I remember thinking sarcastically ” whoopee I won an ebook” and rolling my eyes. Many people I know just don’t put any value on them and if they download them free somewhere they don’t think anymore of it than clicking on a blog like this one and reading it.

Yes , its theivery. Yes, it is a crime. my point is maybe there needs to be some education of the public done (like this discussion) showing how this affects authors and the industry, but instead of an informal discussion, a well crafted public service type professional message from authors to the public.

Also, another question. Do publishers that focus on e-book sales go under faster than traditional publishers? Have any of the closings been directly linked to illegal downloads and file sharing?

I honestly can see how this is a huge problem but again, I think a big part of the unenlightened public just do not put much value on e-books.

Anybody who’s participating in the piracy of ebooks is going to try to twist anything (s)he can in order to justify it. Whatever.

If you’re so poor you can afford neither 1) a mass market paperback at Walmart nor 2) the gas to get to the library, chances are you don’t have the computer set-up, broadband connection and ebook reader or ink that make reading digital copies practical and/or enjoyable. That’s a pretty lame excuse.

And downloading a pirated copy of Theft for Dummies from a file sharing site is absolutely the same thing as walking out of Borders with a copy of Theft for Dummies shoved down your pants.

Well, I so seldom disagree with Teddy that I’m (almost) upset with myself when I should be upset with Teddy… but talk about over-simplifying. Just because you can’t stop a behavior doesn’t mean it’s right or that it should be condoned.

I also hesitate to get between Nora Roberts and any words she types (major suck-up there) but you’re talking about her dime Teddy, not yours.

Take all the books you’ve written directly to a free download site and give them away.

I can’t afford a lot of books I want, so (yes, I’m suppose to say I do without—- I don’t)I buy them anyway and do without that new purse or something else. I don’t steal them.

When I was younger and truly didn’t have extra money I went to the library. And for those people too broke for book-buying, then how do they pay for Internet service?

And to compare teenage sexual behavior with book thievery, well that’s just a silly thing to say.

Is downloading copyrighted materials illegal? Yes, of course.

Is it 100% wrong, 100% of the time? Many comments have brought up how gray an area this can be. I’m on the glass half-full side. If Internet downloads cause someone to then go out and spend their money, I think the ends can justify the means if only a little bit. It’s still wrong, but some good came of it.

There are people on both sides of the fence here, and we could argue back and forth about the matter until the world ends without changing anyone’s mind.

I’m not trying to support either argument, though I’ll say that I would be surprised if Internet downloads ruined someone completely. I would also like to suggest, without meaning offense, that they inspect their history to see if they’ve ever downloaded a song from a peer-to-peer network or something similar. Defense of the law is one thing, hypocrisy is another.

As a side-note, I’m a little surprised at some of the comments being peppered with name-calling, foul language, and even a little propaganda…

Anyway, I’ll crawl back into my hole now.

I fully understand the point Teddy is trying to make, but that is because I was involved with the Napster community when the lawsuits brought forth by the RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America) and Metallica (among others) happened.

Metallica was one of the few artists that actually sued Napster.  I think this is mostly they could actually afford it, as they are multimillionaires.  Among the arguments presented against the RIAA and Metallica: fans are sharing, they are not actually “stealing”.  That is why Metallica ended up with a rather poor public image.  The fans that actually were swapping without financial gain or other self-serving interests were in the thousands, they took it hard. 

The problem is that there were, indeed, people taking advantage of what was called back then the “Napster revolution”, and they were actually exploiting artists work by selling it or obtaining some sort of financial gain in the process… financial gain without paying any rights back to the artist, or the studio, etc.  In the end, those were the ones that brought down peer-to-peer file sharing.  Realistically speaking, there is no way to make a distinction between a mere swap and an actual thief selling the files for profit without paying rights back to rightful owners. Of course, peer to peer file swapping still exists, the scope of the ruling against Napster and other peer-to-peer file sharing options was limited, international law and all that.

Another well known argument in favor of Napster is what Teddy indicated: the overall sales of CDs actually increased during the time Napster was still around.  However, that definitely wasn’t enough to justify allowing free peer-to-peer file sharing to continue without any sort of control.  And in the end, that is what this is all about: the control of the actual work.  This is all material that has rightful owners.

The current model of online music downloads is a result of all the issues brought forth during these lawsuits. 

Maybe someone, someday, will come up with a similar model for digital copies of books.  I’ve seen it for comics (Marvel offers all their comics online via a subscription service, for example).  I don’t know if that would work with books though.  I like the convenience of being able to download my ebooks to my Pocket PC, can’t do that with the comics. 

Another issue that worries me is the “secure” format in ebooks.  I mostly purchase mine directly from the epublishers.  Even knowing the risks they offer them in a convenient way to their customers.  I just hope they don’t all end up deciding to use secure formats.  I am concerned about that whenever I read about yet another site exploiting other people’s work.  It only takes a few people to spoil everything.  I always have big issues with “secure” formtas, and if it all comes down to that, I am afraid I will never buy ebooks again.  I read ebooks for convenience, not to have a fight with the software every time I try to open my purchased ebook, or figure out how many more times can I open the book, or about the license, etc.

An author emailed me saying the minute she found her books on a newsgroups site being shared “woo hoo I’m big time now, they are pirating my books.”.

Now that’s just too real. LOL!

I’m concerned that if I agree with Teddy Pig (which I do), I will no longer be considered a “fan” and will be labeled a “thief.”  People are greedy and generous; the entire gamut and every combination in between.

If someone buys 500 books and downloads 10, are they a thief?
If someone downloads 500 books and buys 10, are they a thief?

Taking an absolute stance on a very complex issue can cause a disconnect between parties.  How this disconnect is handled can affect how individuals react: support, understanding, openness, neutrality, indifference, apathy, alienation, animosity.

I think artists want support and understanding, and do not want to alienate or antagonize their fans.  I imagine fans want to be treated the same.  I feel the extreme on either end of the spectrum draws a line in the sand over an issue that can’t be fought and won, successfully, by either side.

Whoa, everything DOES come down to moderation.  Damn you experts for always being right.

If Internet downloads cause someone to then go out and spend their money, I think the ends can justify the means if only a little bit. It’s still wrong, but some good came of it.

I think that if an author wants to attract attention to her work by offering a free download, that’s up to her. (like that great Cinderella story that helped me decide to buy “Like a Thief in the Night”) It’s not the potential customer’s right to steal something just because he/she might like it enough to go back and buy something else by that author.  And as someone has already pointed out, downloading a track from a CD is not an apt comparison to downloading an entire book.

I’ve found dozens of my books on these sites since RWA sent out the alert yesterday. And I’ve already written to Harlequin and asked them to fight to have them taken down.

In one case, two of my older titles—which had never been released as eBooks—had been digitally scanned & distributed as .pdf files. And more than 2500 copies of those two books have been downloaded on just that ONE site (and they’re posted at at least 3 more than I found.) So anybody who thinks we’re talking about just a few copies is wrong.

When you consider just how far sales have fallen, that 2500 represents about 10% of the US retail sales on a typical category book (Blaze, anyway.) I don’t belong to a church and I sure as heck don’t want to tithe 10% of my limited income to strangers out there in cyberland.

~If someone buys 500 books and downloads 10, are they a thief?
If someone downloads 500 books and buys 10, are they a thief?~

How can downloading ONE book from a piracy site be okay? I don’t care how many were bought by legal means. Why is okay to cheat the artist, ever or at all?

How is it not stealing to take something without paying for it?

I wonder why it’s considered alienating fans to object to having your work taken without compensation.

If it’s okay one time, or ten times, why isn’t okay all the time? Or most of the time? Or whenever the individual doing the download feels like it?

I guess I just can’t understand this sense of entitlement, or the idea that a writer would be greedy or ungenerous for taking a stand against piracy.

~In one case, two of my older titles—which had never been released as eBooks—had been digitally scanned & distributed as .pdf files~

Yes, I’ve had this happen.

You know, readers want books—we want to write books. If some readers feel entitled to do this, to take them without paying, some writers won’t be able to afford to write.

—You know, readers want books—we want to write books. If some readers feel entitled to do this, to take them without paying, some writers won’t be able to afford to write.—

As someone who sent out resumes a few months ago—after 10 years and 30 books in this business—all I can say is you’re darn right. A lot of us really are living on essentially minimum wage as it is.

To me, that 2500 books equals about a thousand bucks. Or the amount I paid for my daughter’s meal plan this semester at college.

Frankly, I’d rather feed my teenager than provide free entertainment to the masses…many of whom won’t pay even for a used copy of a book (which doesn’t bother me) but who have no problem clicking that Paypal button to help “support” the sites promoting this piracy.

Anyone can justify anything. When it comes down to it, what these sites are doing is illegal and wrong. Unfortunately, we as a society, have became enamored with the idea of something for nothing. If someone can get a book for free, they will do it. Morals don’t even enter the picture. I think the book industry needs to send a strong message that this is wrong. You just don’t screw with someone’s livihood.

Blaming the writers for feeling violated by piracy is akin, I feel, to blaming a writer for feeling violated by plagiarism.

Why should the victim be nice, and diplomatic, and forgiving here?

I don’t get it.

Nora—I just out of curiosity did a search on your name at the particular site I referred to earlier.

They have 1251 uploads of your books, in various languages and formats. Some of which have been downloaded in the thousands of times. 

I cannot begin to imagine what this one site is costing you. And nobody will convince me that all those people are reading these for free and then going out and paying money for the actual book.

Leslie, will you e-mail me the site?

[Danny said: I’m not trying to support either argument, though I’ll say that I would be surprised if Internet downloads ruined someone completely.]

Perhaps not ruined someone completely, but definitely had an impact.

I’m an e-book author. We don’t get advances, we don’t see a nickel until the book is published and (God willing) people buy it. So reader X buys the book and I get say $1.00 for that copy. But then X goes onto those sites, shared the book and 1500 people download it. I will never see a dime of the $1500.

This is my job. Am I not entitled to compensation? Do you work for free?

If I choose to send out promotional chapters or give away a copy of the book as a prize in a contest, that’s on me. To have someone arbitrarily decide to give my work away is wrong.

word: pressure98 and rising

—Leslie, will you e-mail me the site?—

Done.

—-Danny said: If Internet downloads cause someone to then go out and spend their money, I think the ends can justify the means if only a little bit. It’s still wrong, but some good came of it.—-

Isn’t this sorta like saying that since the bitchery and Nora raised money for the ferrets, that it justifies CE plagarizing the ferret article?

Personally, I think it is wrong to pirate books because no one deserves to make money off of work that they didn’t do.

Adding insult to the injury, some of these things are in rich text or even .doc formats. Someone especially unscrupulous could download the book to read, then copy & paste chunks of it right into their own documents and try to pass it off as their own.

By all means, let’s make it easier on the plagiarists.

I think the book industry needs to send a strong message that this is wrong. You just don’t screw with someone’s livihood.

The music industry did. When I got out of DJ work locally here they had started suing college students and parents of teenage kids and then they really messed up and threatened DJs and internet radio stations and basically they attacked the consumers and the promoters.

It did not stop anything really all those Chinese and Russian web sites are still selling the latest albums and Torrent is still sharing.

I am keeping used record stores in business on EBay and Amazon.

Hell, I spent big bucks on used CDs recently. I paid $40 bucks for a rare single ep from Lumo and $50 for Young American Primitive. I still have not found that internet only Curve album yet dang it.

This is true for most of my hardcover books too $35 to $40 bucks a piece depending on rarity like the James Barr Fugate I just bought called Derricks from 1956.

~How can downloading ONE book from a piracy site be okay? I don’t care how many were bought by legal means. Why is okay to cheat the artist, ever or at all?

How is it not stealing to take something without paying for it?

I wonder why it’s considered alienating fans to object to having your work taken without compensation.

If it’s okay one time, or ten times, why isn’t okay all the time? Or most of the time? Or whenever the individual doing the download feels like it?

I guess I just can’t understand this sense of entitlement, or the idea that a writer would be greedy or ungenerous for taking a stand against piracy.~

1) Piracy
2) The reaction to piracy

Is it possible to separate these two issues?  Does anyone even see a difference?  It feels like if I don’t agree that all “pirates” should be called thieves or cheats, then I must have a problem with artists being against piracy.  Or, that since I disagree with the reaction to something, then I must be okay with whatever that something is?  I don’t like the polarization of “if you don’t agree with us, then you must be against us.”  Can’t I see value in each side?  Or, can’t I disagree with both?  Everyone is greedy and generous.  The existence of one does not mean the nonexistence of the other.

I’m put off by everything being lumped together.  I don’t think I have a sense of entitlement, nor do I think writers are greedy or ungenerous (no more than anyone else is) for taking a stand against piracy.

Artists want as much money as they can get for their product.  Fans want as much product as they can get for their money.  Employers want as much productivity as they can get for your salary.  Employees want as much salary as they can get for their productivity.  The other side may see you as greedy, because they are seeing it from a different perspective.  Or, maybe everyone is greedy, or none of them are greedy, depending upon a viewpoint?

I do not think the solution to piracy is to call every person that has ever illegally downloaded someone else’s work a thief and good riddance to them.  I don’t see how that ultimately solves the issue to anyone’s satisfaction.  I do not know what the solution is.  I think whoever comes up with a viable solution first, is going to make a crapload of money (iTunes, anyone?).  At least, until technology forces yet another change, making the previous business model obsolete.

And I’ve obviously gone off on a tangent and indulged in a lot of babblery, but I still wonder if moderation (from all sides) is the (impossible) answer to everything.

“An author emailed me saying the minute she found her books on a newsgroups site being shared “woo hoo I’m big time now, they are pirating my books.”. Posted by Teddy Pig
————————-

Well, if anyone is friendly with Chritine Feehan they can email her and tell her she has ~finally~ hit the big time because I have just seen a site where her books are being given away for free. Poor thing, maybe now she’ll get some fan recognition.

(Anyone NOT get the sarcasm? For them: Okay, it was.)

Cripes… I can so spell Christine. Some times.

I always have big issues with “secure” formtas, and if it all comes down to that, I am afraid I will never buy ebooks again.  I read ebooks for convenience, not to have a fight with the software every time I try to open my purchased ebook, or figure out how many more times can I open the book, or about the license, etc.

This is exactly why I only recently started buying iTunes music again. They stopped the crappy DRM junk. If it does not have a + next to it. I don’t buy.

I am also the same way with eBooks I might read a DRM’d eBook but no review.

I will not support or promote someone’s paranoia or locking a reader into a single format.

If a person who takes an item(like a book) that was for sale, without paying, should not be referred to as a thief, then what? It seems to me that objecting to a label like that is adding insult to injury, suggesting that not only does this person not want to pay money, but they don’t even want to have to face disapproval. Come on. If someone wants to be not lumped in with people who do things that are illegal, then they have the choice of not breaking those laws. I’m not getting where people see a grey area in this.

As another note, as far as I can tell, it isn’t completely easy for one to go about sharing a legally purchased e-book. When you purchase an e-book from Harlequin or many of those other places, the file is DRM protected, which basically means it bonds itself to your computer. If you were to send the file as it is to someone else, they wouldn’t be able to read its contents because the file would be able to tell the difference between their computer and yours.

As far as I know, most of the formats that legal e-books are offered in aren’t easy to rid of their DRM…

I can only assume that a large portion of the books online are scanned page by page. These people much have too much time on their hands. X)

Downloading pirated books is stealing, plain and simple.

If you are that poor, there are libraries. Or you can visit a UBS. I’m a big supporter of both, but there’s a huge difference between libraries and used bookstores, which may have a few copies of said item, and an internet site that allows downloads to hundreds of users, and for a fee.

Giving a book to a friend to read is sharing. Taking it off an internet pirate site, like thousands of others, is stealing.

It grieves me to see talented authors like Leslie Kelly who have to get together their resume, after 10 years in this business, because of economics. I’m with her. Feed the teenager!

I’ve personally mailed, out of my own pocket, books of mine to readers who write to me and say they love my work but they are “economically challenged” and charged no cost. I do it because I love this genre, and if a reader can’t find my books or she’s on a limited budget, I want to work with them. I’ll go out of my way to find a UBS that carries my books, or a library, or finally mail it to them.

I work very hard to create the books I write, and I also work a demanding day job because romance writing alone won’t pay the bills. Seeing my work on this site pissed me off to no end.

I’ll be damned if I support anyone downloading books on a pirated site. If you’re so interested in my books, or other Harlequin authors, visit a site like paperback swap.com. It’s a wonderful trading internet spot, for free, and you can get a book legitimately, and not risk the wrath of Harlequin’s legal department.

I hope Harlequin is able to nail their butts to the wall, but like someone else said, they’ll vanish and reappear somewhere else.

I went to the site and read a few of the books. I haven’t read Harlequin since high school, and certainly wouldn’t purchase any of the books now. I think it’s erroneous to assume that the people who are downloading the free ebooks would have purchased the books had they not been otherwise available on the site. They’re not really losing a whole lot of money here.

“I went to the site and read a few of the books. I haven’t read Harlequin since high school, and certainly wouldn’t purchase any of the books now. I think it’s erroneous to assume that the people who are downloading the free ebooks would have purchased the books had they not been otherwise available on the site. They’re not really losing a whole lot of money here.”

Uhhhh, the point is they are stealing! It doesn’t matter if the book is 1 cent, that belongs to the author. Like Nora said, it does end up being alot of money.

Think of the sites like a library then. Everyone who is interested can read thousands of books for free. SOMEONE bought the original book in order to be able to post it, so basically they’re acting like a librarian and sharing with the rest. It’s not stealing if the buy a book and let their friends read it too.

“Uhhhh, the point is they are stealing! It doesn’t matter if the book is 1 cent, that belongs to the author. Like Nora said, it does end up being alot of money.”

My point is they you’re using some really fuzzy math. If the 10 people who downloaded a book would never have purchased the book had downloading never been invented, the author has lost nothing.

Think of the sites like a library then. Everyone who is interested can read thousands of books for free. SOMEONE bought the original book in order to be able to post it, so basically they’re acting like a librarian and sharing with the rest. It’s not stealing if the buy a book and let their friends read it too

Except a library only gives one copy to one person at a time. Pirate sites give 1 copy to thousands of people at one time. Not even comparable.

—SOMEONE bought the original book in order to be able to post it, so basically they’re acting like a librarian and sharing with the rest. It’s not stealing if the buy a book and let their friends read it too.—

A single paperback library book, or one distributed through a UBS can be read by how many people before it falls apart and has to be re-purchased. 10? 20? Maybe even push it and say it lands in the hands of 50 people before it falls apart (I’d like to see any paperback book that could hold up to 50 readings.)

How does that possibly compare to someone plunking down 4 bucks and then sharing that book with 2000 of their “closest friends” on the internet?

And how should I feel about those 2000 readers while I’m pocketing the 24 cents I made on the one and only sale?

PS: It’s not just Harlequin books. It affects everyone.

—My point is they you’re using some really fuzzy math. If the 10 people who downloaded a book would never have purchased the book had downloading never been invented, the author has lost nothing.—

Sorry, I find your math fuzzy. Just because you would never be interested in reading “those Harlequin books” under any circumstances, that does not mean other readers wouldn’t.

Let’s split the difference and say half wouldn’t. Or even 1/3. When you’re looking in the tens of thousands of copies like somebody like Nora is, that’s still a whole lot of lost sales.

As someone who sent out resumes a few months ago—after 10 years and 30 books in this business—all I can say is you’re darn right. A lot of us really are living on essentially minimum wage as it is.

This is disheartening, especially since I have so many of Ms. Kelly’s books on my bookshelf.

I would be surprised if Internet downloads ruined someone completely.

According to a study commissioned in Canada in 2005, the average annual salary of a writer is LESS THAN $9000.  That’s below the poverty line.

It’s not stealing if the buy a book and let their friends read it too.

So, what about the people who are “sharing” books that aren’t even released yet?

Almost forgot…

Libraries that lend out ebooks lend one copy to one reader at a time and only give you a specific window in which to read them.  After, in the case of my library, 3 weeks, the file expires and “removes” itself from your computer.

Libraries do NOT let their tens or hundreds of thousands of users download an ebook and keep it indefinitely.

The thing is: if a library buys a book and then lends it out, that book, for a certain amount of time, is no longer on the library shelves. Only one person can read it. With a digital copy for that to apply, I’d have to physically give someone my PDA or my computer.

Now when these sites open up access to a file, it doesn’t mean when someone downloads that file, it disappears from my computer and goes into theirs. When they download it, it creates two copies and the author does NOT get paid for the second copy.

It’s the exact same thing as if I lend a book to a friend and she returns it OR I make a copy of the entire book and give it to her.

It’s stealing and it’s cheating the author of hard-earned wages.

For those who don’t think piracy is theft, I offer Title 17 of the US Code for your reading pleasure:

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html

I particularly recommend “Chapter 5. Copyright Infringement and Remedies” in which it states (in part):

“(c) Statutory Damages. —

(1) Except as provided by clause (2) of this subsection, the copyright owner may elect, at any time before final judgment is rendered, to recover, instead of actual damages and profits, an award of statutory damages for all infringements involved in the action, with respect to any one work, for which any one infringer is liable individually, or for which any two or more infringers are liable jointly and severally, in a sum of not less than $750 or more than $30,000 as the court considers just. For the purposes of this subsection, all the parts of a compilation or derivative work constitute one work.

(2) In a case where the copyright owner sustains the burden of proving, and the court finds, that infringement was committed willfully, the court in its discretion may increase the award of statutory damages to a sum of not more than $150,000.”

Theft of copyright can be very expensive for the perpetrator.

Needless to say, I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. I am merely a librarian, who knows where to find info on the Copyright Law.

(security word: boy55—Gee, do I get that many????)

I can see both sides of this debate.

1. Making money off unauthorised copies of someone’s work is wrong.
2. On the other hand, a ll the music I have bought in the last decade has been as a direct result of downloading one or more tracks first (I do not keep music I have no intention of purchasing).The only book I’ve downloaded for free off the Internet was the last Harry Potter (mainly to confirm that I wouldn’t pay good money for it).
4. Libraries exist to provide free access to books. Unfortunately, especially where I live, their selection is extremely limited, and their acquisitions dept seemingly doesn’t give a shit about listening to their patrons’ suggestions (for example, the city centre library in Canberra, Australia, has 5 books by Nora Roberts on their shelves (including the J.D. Robbs - they don’t seem interested in acquiring more).
5. Publishers charge way too much for e-books. Why on earth should I pay as much as a dead tree edition? Nora mentions $1.20 in royalties. Double that for production costs, and I can’t see why an e-book costs more than $US5. Add to that the annoyance of DRM, which means I can’t transfer my copy of the book to whatever device I want to read it on (and DRM doesn’t stop piracy, as we know).
6. A lot of people download pirated copies for the same reason I do music - to have a free preview; to have an e-version of a hardcopy they already own; an authorised copy costs a ridiculous amount of money and can’t be transferred between devices.
7. A lot of other people take the piss and download way more than they should (ie. they have no intention of purchasing a “hard copy” of whatever it is they’ve obtained)
8. Readily-available books certainly benefit by word-of-mouth.
9. Publishers have been crap at making their books readily available electronically. Not only are there the cost and DRM problems, but also the fact there can be significant delays in releasing an e-version, where one exists.

What’s the solution? Make e-books a reasonable cost and without the annoying DRM (which generally means you must have a certain device or OS to read the book). Most people prefer to do things legally where they can, and support the artists whose work they consume (or else there wouldn’t be much art going on!) Of course, you’ll never get rid of the something-for-nothing crowd, but if the real stuff is more readily available, those morons would become by far the minority.

Maybe someone could start up an online “lending-library”? You have a subscription for the site, and a $5 credit allows you to read 5 or so books online. Once you’ve “activated” the book you want to read, you have 30 days to read it. Obviously, there could be different “prices” for different books (more popular books should probably require more credit to read). There should probably be some e-commerce tie-in so that subscribers could buy the books they wanted permanently (with perhaps the lending credit subtracted from the price).

And would any mainstream publishers go for that kind of scheme? Probably not, given their level of interest in providing online reading at reasonable cost - the only publisher I can think of who tries is Baen. Maybe one day more will see the obvious benefits.

economic52 - very apt.

As someone who has downloaded files (both music and e-book) from the internet, illegally, all I can say is: if there weren’t for those copies, I never would have bought some CDs, or even heard for some bands that I absolutely adore now.
Here is also a thing that happened to me recently: I bought an e-book from Samhain, which was in fact a part two of an ongoing story arc. I read it, and was thrilled! But, what about part one? Where is it? At first I thought I overlooked it somewhere, so I went back to Samhain and checked again. Nothing. So I’m thinking: “Maybe they published part two before part one accidentally, who knows? Maybe it’s going to be released soon.”
Then I start searching that list, and nothing.
Dude.
This is where I’m starting to get pissed. I wanna know what happened before the events in book two, but where is the book one? Aha! E-bay. (But I gotta say I loathe E-bay.)
To cut this long and boring story of mine short, there was no book one, not even on E-bay. One of my friends suggests searching for a sharing site; I go there and download that book in maybe 20 minutes. Before that, I spent app. a week and a half on that book search, in libraries, online stores and the publisher’s site.
I will totally buy that book if it ever comes out published, because I read it already, and can say I consider myself a fan. But if the author in question came to me, and told me I am a thief… I’d say good riddance to you, too. Not because I think there’s nothing wrong with illegal copies and file sharing, but because I consider what I did as reading an advanced copy of the book I plan to buy when/if it ever comes out.
Sorry about being boring.
P.S. The author doesn’t have that first book mentioned at all on her site. Like it never existed… Creepy.