Smart Bitches, Trashy Books

No idea but a hearty amen from the congregation on “cream” used in verbal form under these circumstances. Ick.

And ditto on weep. All I can think is “some penicillin might clear that up.”

There should be a list out there of words used to indicate arousal that are distinctly non-arousing. Sort of a writer’s manual of “GS vs. STA.”

Nope. But I did read a book last night where “creamed” was used several times, and a few of those times was in actual dialogue between the hero and heroine. He also “slanted” his mouth across hers throughout the whole book. After the 5th time, it started to look and sound really weird.

P.S. I will not ever be HABOing the book I read last night because I don’t really want to reread it ever again.

oh gross cream at least its not as bad as ... as they kissed the fragrant fluid essence of her feminine arousal was released. what it was in a tank somewhere and he found the tap? yeesh

OMG!! It sounds like a number of Sandra Brown books. Her characters are always creaming, old school style!

WHERE THERE’S SMOKE opens with the hero and another woman (not the heroine) in bed. This woman, who is the town harlot, naturally, describes a time when the hero picked her up and kissed her after a football game.  She said “she creamed her panties”—those exact words. 

The other details aren’t the same.  But this type of scene is a Brown staple so you might look at her other titles.  Breath of a Scandal maybe.  She published tons of category romances in the 80s and single titles in the 90s.

/fangirl out

It doesn’t squick me out, particularly…

...but it does remind me of “Greased Lightning”, which is not necessarily what I want to be thinking about when reading sex scenes.

Or Angela Knight. And I’ll take creaming over dripping any day of the week. One of the few times of declined to finish a book was because of it’s over use and the disturbing images the word evoked. That’s an STD reference if ever I’ve heard one.
Re the book: I’m gettin a LoveSwept tingle in the back of my brain. Other than that, no help.

Oh, sorry for the inappropriate apostrophe. It’s early.

Not a clue about the book, but I’m another reader
who shudders at the use of “creaming” & “weeping!”
Creaming is now equal first with “moist” as my most
disliked word in the English language

I cook for a living-to me, “creaming” involves an industrial mixer, sugar, and lots of butter.  Weeping is peeling onions.  Dripping is a mess that has to be cleaned up.  None of those words make me feel the sexy. 

Now, seeing a man scrub pots, that’s sexy!!

“Creaming” is the worst. “Weeping” makes me laugh, but “creaming” makes me cringe. If it’s used more than once in a book, I won’t finish it.

It seems like whenever the subject comes up, no one really likes the idea of women getting wet.  No creaming, no weeping, no fluid… is it really the words that are being used, or a subconscious problem with female sexuality that has been ground into us?  I read this site a lot, and I see a lot of people having problems with the way female sexual response is described, but far, far fewer problems with phrases like, “His cock got hard,” or “his groin tightened”.

I’m curious. All these words put readers off…What words would you use in their place? What words describe the female sexual response in a way you as a reader find sexy?

I hear you, Jennifer. I’ll admit to a few cringes when I read female arousal, but only when I see words like gushing, sopping and pouring. I have no problem with cream or creaming, moist, damp, etc. because how else are you going to describe it? Women get wet when they get aroused there’s no way around it. Somehow saturated, sodden, soggy, drizzling, humid and aqueous just don’t seem so romantic or arousing. What words do women prefer when reading graphic sex?

Let’s just go with “wet” and leave it at that. Short, to-the-point yet still sexy.

Good point, Jennifer. And good question, Mel.

I don’t like moist in any context, but damp or wet is fine.

I’m fine with feminine arousal. I even want to know about it. But I think so many authors have trouble communicating it that they fall back on ye olde hardened nipples and, as Jill called it, “old school creaming”. (Please, please don’t ever say that again. It sounds like something someone’s grandmother would do.)

There used to be an author I read (can’t remember her name) who was AMAZING at painting female arousal without resorting to copious fluids. She’d write about feeling your skin tighten, being unable to catch your breath, muscles fluttering, etc. All of this I found a lot sexier than the alternative. It’s like…

“He looked at her, his eyes glinting like the freshly laid backsplash in that Tuscan kitchen she’d always wanted, and she watched his hair toss in the wind like a wild pony leaping after a butterfly. And then she had to go clean up because she’d creamed herself.”

Maybe it’s the implied sloppiness I have a problem with? I dunno, again, different strokes, etc.

Yeah, not down with the “creaming” -  b/c it seems to be a description favored by teenage boys. The judicious (by that I mean not in every darn scene) use of “dripping” in erotic romance is less of an issue - if there were not some serious arousal, I imagine many of the activities would be just plain painful or unappealing.
Terms I don’t mind:
slick, wet, damp, ready (good in less explicit fiction b/c it is descriptive without reference to fluids)
I remember reading a couple of romances with a lot of humor where the heroines’ disgruntled internal monologues included something about needing new panties - in the context of the books it worked. One of them may have been the always-funny Shelley Laurenston and maybe the other was a Lorelei James.

Thank you Jennifer!  I was thinking the same thing.  In fact, the tuna kiss discussion last week (or whenever) also rankled.  SB Sarah, can we celebrate female sexuality sometimes instead of squicking on it?  Women and girls have enough body issues without constanty being told that vaginas are yuck.

It seems like whenever the subject comes up, no one really likes the idea of women getting wet.  No creaming, no weeping, no fluid… is it really the words that are being used, or a subconscious problem with female sexuality that has been ground into us?

It’s definitely the vocabulary. I have no problem with female arousal; I like reading about it as long as it’s a good description. For some reason, “cream” in a vaginal context makes me think of infections, and weeping makes me think that the heroine is subconsciously terrified of sex. Weeping = not good.

I’m curious. All these words put readers off…What words would you use in their place? What words describe the female sexual response in a way you as a reader find sexy?

I think part of my aversion to these descriptors is that they seem insufficient (also icky, but that’s another argument). There is so much more to female arousal than just getting wet. The psychological component is equally as, or I would argue, more important than the physical one. I can be physically ready, but if my mind is not engaged, it doesn’t matter how cunning of a linguist my partner is, I’m not going anywhere.

So often sex scenes focus purely on the physical without ever getting inside the heroine’s head, and when they do, it seems like they have to rely on words that are as trite as their narration.

As a reader, I imagine it must be really difficult to write a sex scene and make it sound and feel sexy.  I don’t really see the issue with “creaming” as being about whether female genitalia is inherently gross or not.  For me, it’s more about the associations conjured by that word.  It reminds me of terminology we used in junior high, it’s just not sexy to me.  It snaps me out of the story instantly.  But I have no problem with the words, “moist,” or “slanted,” or “wet,” “damp,” etcetera because I have no weird associations with those words.  For the record, I also have a problem with how some male orgasms are described.  I really don’t like the term, “burst,” to describe it.  All I can think is Yikes!  That must have hurt.

Thanks, Jill, I thought I must have been huffing paint thinner or something.

Dora, to say that you’re fine with feminine arousal, just so long as vaginal lubrication isn’t mentioned is exactly the kind of thing I’m talking about.  You’re obviously not fine with it, because female sexual response is “sloppy” and you don’t want to hear about it.  That’s not your fault, it’s the fault of the way we treat female sexuality in the west, that women have gross, nasty genitals that no one could possibly find appealing.  The male-approved beautiful parts, hard nipples, flushed skin, all of that is okay to us, because we’ve been conditioned to believe it is beautiful.  All the other parts, those are okay to be squicked out about because everyone has told us they’re nasty.

... nnnnoooooooooo, no, pretty sure I’m fine with being turned on. Again, I didn’t say I was fine with it as long as lubrication wasn’t mentioned. I said that writers tend to fall back on excessive lubrication as a sole means of indicating desire. You can totally tell me about how wet your heroine is, and that’s great, but for me there’s so much more to the human body than “getting wet” as a means to communicate arousal. 

My point is, you can be sexy, and you can be wet, but being wet isn’t the only way to be sexy. If all you can say about the heroine is that she’s “dripping”, it’s just not interesting to me, and because you’ve removed so much more from the equation, such as other physical sensations, I have nothing to connect it with.

Frankly, I don’t think not caring for certain descriptive terms over others means I have a problem with my sexuality. I also dislike the word “engorged”, because it’s weird, and “Gary Busey” because… well.

I don’t have a clue what book this is, but the few Lora Leigh books I’ve read have had women “Creaming” left and right, I felt like I needed highwater boots and a life vest, so much creaming and dripping was going on.

I LOVE the new trend in romantica of using dirty words but I absolutely HATE all the creaming and dripping and weeping that’s going on these days.

cream |kr?m|
noun
1 the thick white or pale yellow fatty liquid…

Right there. That is more yeast infection than arousal. The technical definition. It isn’t just a descriptor, but a word also carries a technical definition that can make you woozy.

I had the most difficult time in the world with these descriptive words, and moist got nixed pretty quick as well.

It isn’t just the era a word comes from it’s the actual definition of the word that can cause a wicked twitch.

Wet means wet. Moist, kinda refers to something that is not quite fluid but gooey. And no a penis should never burst, that is a quick ER visit for sure. I think writers need to think about the actual definition of the word used, outside the context they use it in, before deciding on that descriptor.

(that includes me, as I had a line that stopped several in their tracks, before I thought about it.)

Anywhoo. :)

I’m sorry, Dora, I didn’t mean to imply that you, personally, have a problem with your sexuality, but that western culture has a problem with female sexuality.  I just felt that your response exemplified the attitude that all of us, no matter how sexual of a person we are, are exposed to.

“Creaming” has not just the adolescent-boy-smack-talk association, it also makes me think of Old Skool Catherine Coulter.  Then I giggle.  So that one’s all about the word itself.

The gushing I also have a problem with.  Maybe it’s just me, but while I’ve been slick, moist, damp, wet, humid, and maybe even sodden on a good night, I’ve never to my knowledge gushed.  Just too voluminous a description.  And when it’s overused (yes, looking at you, LL), it becomes unintentionally comic.

Every now and then I’ll read an explicit scene from the hero’s POV where he internally (and sometimes out loud, rawr!) describes the heroine’s aroused nether bits in detail that is tres sexay.  The moisture is just part of that description, not the sum total.  Throw in some pouting, flushing, fluttering, swollenness to go along with all that liquidy goodness.

@Jennifer Armintrout, I spend my working day up to my
up to my armpits in female & male genitalia - Not a
good visual,I know.
  The reason I have a problem with creaming/ weeping/
dripping et al, is because, as I work in a GUM
clinic (genito-urinary medicine). I hear those words
uttered by some extremely puerile individuals in
relation to their SO’s, or their one night stands !.
  I really wish someone would use a little imagintion
when describing female arousal, there are some
wonderfully lubricious terms in the thesaurus,
without reverting to high school cant, which- personally-
I find - to use the verncular- chavvy.
  So, come on writers,  find some new euphemisms for
vaginal secretions, & leave the cream in the fridge !!!

No worries, Jennifer. :) I just get prickly when it feels like people are putting words in my mouth, but I should have been clearer to begin with.

Frankly, I’m also not saying I think authors should STOP using those terms. Just because I don’t enjoy them doesn’t mean I think other people shouldn’t as well.

But HEY SPEAKING OF ON TOPIC. I wish I could be of more help with identifying this book. But. Um. It turns out Google is… uh… shall we say less than helpful if you try and run a search for “creaming”, whatever other keywords you use. Sorry, I fail. :(

But the problem seems to be that any description of wetness, aside from “wet” is someone’s squick.  It’s either too juvenile, too sloppy, too unimaginative… my point is, no matter what you call it, someone is going to have a problem with it because in Western society we have a problem with women being sexual creatures, full stop.

Dora, it’s no big.  There are definitely words and descriptions that get me when they seem to be trending… “plum colored head” to describe an erection has always made me think of someone slamming their dick in a car door.

... well now.

I don’t even have the necessary equipment, but that description still made me wince and cross my legs. Thanks for that, Jennifer.

Dora - Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! And I agree, I’ve read plenty of erotic romance that doesn’t resort to descriptions of body fluids to describe arousal and are all the better for it. I have no problem with arousal or lubrication. My rapidly diminishing Estrogen makes me pretty interested in, and really happy about, lubrication. It’s really about how you can be taken out of a story by the picture a word makes in your mind. As someone who works in the medical field, I can tell you that words that are interchangeable with a description of gonorrhea, syphillis or pus ridden infection are nonstarters. The rest of the writing has to be really, really good to overcome bad verbage.

You know, it *is* possible to describe female lubrication changes during intense arousal without using “cream” or “weep”, and doing so doesn’t make it more of a euphemism or less sex-positive. Rather the opposite, if you can do so realistically. I’d love to read an oral sex scene that ends with a damp spot on the bed from the combined arousal fluid/drool of the couple.

My main disagreement seems to be that those particular words are unexpectedly inaccurate enough to be jarring—I’m reading along, imagining myself in the heroine’s role, when suddenly her vagina morphs into a leaky faucet and/or a tube of sunscreen that spurts with every involuntary clench of her PC (ha!) muscles. Wha?

LOL Seriously? Why does something someone finds squicky have to have some deeper, fundamentally misogynistic meaning? Can’t something just be lazy and immature writing style without us all really suppressing our True Sexualitytm ? (that sounded less snarky in my head, it just seemed like a totally absurd question)
I too think of it as something inexperienced teenagers use. People get wet. People get slick. I can’t speak for anyone else but if something is “creamy”, I going to start thinking infection, not wow so sexy! 
Like Dora pointed out, let talk about all the physical reactions, not just whats weeping and creaming away down there.  *and just typing that made me squick so I guess I am totally repressed. :p

This discussion is very interesting to me as both a reader and a writer. Definitely some things to think about. Nadia, I agree some fluttering, etc. is the perfect complement to all the liquidy goodness.

Personally, I’m fine with women getting wet when they’re aroused. It happens, its a good thing, it means the man is doing something right. And reading about it in a book works for me. But some of the terminology doesn’t. “Creaming” makes me think of creaming together baking ingredients and/or gives me the mental image of white liquid. I hope to God that none of these heroines is dripping white liquid during sex! “Weeping” is something that happens to my eyes, not my vagina. I have read some really great sex scenes and I cannot think of the words that were used but I know they were better than creaming and weeping. I don’t mind dripping because some women do ejaculate and there is enough liquid to drip out. By the way, I also have problems with a lot of the verbage used towards penis descriptions. I guess the subject doesn’t come up often enough (hehe…I said come.)

I still just think it comes down to a matter of taste. Not liking terms like “creaming”, “weeping”, “engorged”, or “clown” doesn’t make me a prude or repressed; it just makes me preferential. Some people get off on being spanked. I do not. I do, however, think that what’s cool about erotic writing is that there’s SO MUCH of it, and it’s SO VARIED, that there’s something for everyone. So, if you enjoy things like this, then by all means, CREAM ON! And I am more than happy to keep finding for books that suit MY tastes. (Anyone else waiting for the time Nathan Fillion becomes a sex symbol like Fabio and starts selling his name and photo to romance novels?)

Although now that people have started comparing “creaming” to yeast infections and other fun diseases, I’m even less enthused about it. Thanks for that nightmare fuel, ladies.

I have only heard the term used as “she creamed herself” and for the longest time I was going “They CAN’T mean what they seem to be saying!” Example—a teacher was so into teaching Shakespeare that she creamed herself talking about Romeo and Juliet. I thought—stood in front of the class and masturbated? Because “creamed herself” to me implies “took action to get creamy”.

Yeah, I know it can’t mean that, but I still hear that implication when I read the phrase.

@Dora I SO AM!!! I <3 Nathan Fillion. I don’t mind saying it. So much of that is his persona and characters, great mind, great words (great lines) but still. *squee*

Sounds like the hetero version of CAUGHT RUNNING to me.

LOL Seriously? Why does something someone finds squicky have to have some deeper, fundamentally misogynistic meaning?

Since the things that squick us out often have to do with societal conditioning?

I love this discussion! Smart women talking about the line between what is sexy and what’s a turn-off, not to mention the factors (cultural, personal, etc.) behind our placement of that line. So cool!
And for the record, “creamed” isn’t my favorite word choice. Then again, I wasn’t too fond of “cunt” until James McAvoy reappropriated it. It’s all in the context.

Yes, it’s very difficult to write a good sex scene, and the fact is that no matter how you write it, there’s always the chance someone will be put off by a description or a word. I don’t usually describe the state of the heroine’s vag in a lot of detail. Personally, like someone mentioned upthread, I use “wet” and “damp” and that’s about it. I do overuse the “aching clit” trope, but I’m aware of it now.

It’s the difference between connotation and denotation. Wet and damp denote a state of wetness. And they have no negative connotations - when you hear “wet” or “damp” you think…“wet” or “damp.”  Weeping denotes crying, or another circumstance under which moisture is released like in bricks or something. But it also has icky connotations - we talk of wounds or sores weeping. So you automatically get an “ooh, gross” visual.

“Cream” has very heavy porn connotations (creampie and what have you), and not coincidentally it’s used a lot by teenage boys and douchebag men.

And dripping just brings up a nasty visual - I’m down with feminine arousal, it’s necessary for good sex, but when you talk about “dripping” I’m like - wait, isn’t she still wearing panties at this point—and if she’s not, won’t the hero be a little freaked out? It’s just not sexy.

Definitely NO to creaming your jeans, although someone mentioned that to me in a conversation years ago and it made me laugh because I hadn’t heard it for a long time. I certainly would never use it in a book. “Slick and wanting (or yearning)” is good, I think. “Dewy” is dopey—it makes me think of someone who either needs to powder her face or is trying to put a pretty look on having a hot flash, which of course, is impossible to do. Pushing that shopping cart through the grocery store that never seems to have the A/C turned on—by the time I get to the check-out, I’m MORE than dewy.

The lip-slanting thing instead of a kiss: I’ve read that in several books and could only picture the Sims with their jerky, puppetlike movements. So let’s turn them loose in the kitchen without proper cooking training and let them burn down their own house.

OK, so the fact that I find sticking my hand into warm cooked spaghetti squicky means I’m actually conflicted about my Italian heritage due to society’s cliched perception? I thought it was just because it feels gross.
And I still think the book was a LoveSwept & was perhaps set on the West Coast.
And lurker probably never realised what a can of worms she was opening.
And warm cooked spaghetti feels like worms….

Oh, yeah, the slanting thing in kissing—in Kay Hooper’s early categories (as Kay Hooper and as Kay Robbins) she used that all the time. I don’t remember seeing it elsewhere, though I probably have. (Was a MAJOR Hooper fan back in the day. Still occasionally reread a few.)

It can be difficult to separate word-associations (which are both personal and cultural) from the actual things they describe, and I think Jennifer Armintrout’s intervention was valuable in making people think more carefully about this, rather than just coming up with an instinctive ‘argh’ , or possibly ‘yuck’, response.  Several people mention that ‘creaming’ is used by teenage boys.  I have never heard it used by anyone, and have only ever seen it in pornographic American writing.  So we have completely different (though equally negative) associations for it. 
Ultimately, the emotional and physical symptoms of sexual arousal in women can be markedly different in different women (how many of you get a strange tingling sensation inside the fingers?  Just asking.).  Vaginal lubrication for some of us is the final stage when matters have become pretty serious, not something that happens at a mere glance or touch.  At least, as far as I can recall at my age…
When you add to that the fact that the regional dialects of English (British, Canadian, American, Australian, New Zealand, to name but a few) have varying associations for words—and that different generations in each and every one of those areas, and more, have different vocabularies too—I think we need to cut the authors some slack.  We all know what they mean.  Nobody ever said writing was easy.

I avoid “creaming” and I had an editor who hated “weeping” so she more or less cured me of that one.
Cream to me is the thick pale yellow stuff you put on your strawberries, so no, yuk. If you’re creaming you need a doctor.
But - it’s really difficult to write a sex scene that’s fresh and different. I try to do it from the viewpoint of the character involved - but how many men go beyond “uh - woman - now”!
It is difficult. There are exactly two words that precisely describe a woman’s - lady parts - before you start getting biological. I rather like “petals” because of the orchid connotations, but a lot of people don’t.
Final confession - when I write a sex scene, I’m not thinking about who is going to read it. Only later, when it gets to my editor do I get to think of the book as it will appear to the reader. Sometimes I’m really surprised. But without that editor, I’d go badly wrong from time to time.

Nope, don’t like creaming in a sexual connotation.  And weeping makes me think of Weeping Cock, where people post bad sex scenes—I don’t want to think of either sex’s genitalia as weeping. 

What do you do with the fact that moist is one of the most hated words in the English language?  Not just moist panties but moist towelettes and moisture and mildew.  It’s a word that makes me think of cold and slimey not hot and wet. Says a lot that Terry Pratchett can convince me to like a character named Moist von Lipwig. 

As said in an article entitled “Who Do We Hate the Word Moist”

But word aversion has something to do with the sound and structure of the word itself. As commenter Shannon said on a recent Language Log post, some reactions are “...bred of the mysterious relationships between language, emotion, memory, sound and ‘mouthfeel.’” I’m more used to seeing the word mouthfeel in discussions about beer, but it sure does get at the physical violation some feel when saying certain words.

You can read the rest here:  http://www.good.is/post/why-do-we-hate-the-word-moist/

As Freud said in one of his more laid back moments, “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.”

Ha!  Ok, confession time: I may have read this book; though in the book I read, the former football player ends up paralyzed (temporarily?) and I think the heroine cares for him and that’s how they end up hooking up despite her wallflower tendencies, and when I read that she “creamed her panties,” it was a revelation to me: Oh!  That’s what that’s called!  It happens to other people, I’m not a freak! (Or at least not for that reason.)

What can I say?  It was the 80’s, I was a repressed teenager in rural Maryland with no kind female relatives to answer even basic reproductive questions, so I got most of my info. either from romances stolen from my best friend’s older sister, or Judy Bloom (anybody else learn about sex from “Forever?”).

So “creaming” doesn’t really bother me, though as a baker, I do smile every time I read that I’m supposed to “cream the butter.”  Most of the rest of the liquid terms: “weeping,” “dripping,” etc. do gross me out, but only because I think “infection” instead of arousal.  I love it when the author focuses on the other signs of arousal, but I can’t think of anyone who does it really well.  (If anyone can name someone, I promise to go read their books.)

And I suspect it’s just really hard (!) to write a sexy sex scene.  Now that I’m no longer a teenager looking for info., I tend to skim them.  “Yeah, yeah, engorged…slick, ok, they have sex, got it, now where’s the witty dialogue?”

Well, I screwed that post up.  I meant to type “Why Do We Hate the Word Moist” and my blockquote tags didn’t work.

And it took reading Denise Mina’s novels set in Glasgow to cure me of any squeamishness about the word cunt.  By the time I finished the third one I was totally desensitized.

No on the ‘creamed’, ‘weeping’ and ‘dripping’. Creaming sounds like junior high boys talking.  Weeping and dripping need medication.

Wet, damp, slick, moist are fine. Probably others I can’t think of right now.

I was going to have a cup of coffee, but since I use cream…well, nevermind that now. Tea is fine. And I’ll have to pass on the spaghetti for a while. ;)

Have no idea on the HabO, sorry.

Cream seems so - childish. Like something I would’ve said in high school. Don’t care for wet either, makes me think she peed herself. As someone with a lot of bladder & kidney problems I read “She was wet” and the first thing I think of is she held it too long.

I like “slick.” Not “slick with her juices” - just “slick” - “hot and slick” works too. Makes me think she’s turned on and doesn’t need any KY to help her along.

Tessa: This one time, at church camp

- we were around freshman age - someone smuggled a copy of Forever from home. Late at night in the girls’ cabin we’d take turns reading it, and they all asked me if the stuff in it was true - because they knew I was already reading “dirty” romances (Woodiwiss, Rosemary Rogers, etc.)

I still see some of those people at church to this day. If they knew I wrote dirty werewolf books….

I read a lot of erotic romance (why stop at the good parts?). Creaming and weeping and even dripping, running and leaking (for women) can be okay, depending on how they’re used and the writer’s general voice—but they can go wrong fast. I’m fine with damp, moist, wet, slick, ready, etc.

Turn-offs for me in love scenes include: vagina and penis (they may be correct, but the dirty words sound hotter) and when a man calls a woman, “Baby.” It sounds like porn film talk to me, or like he can’t be bothered to remember her name.

I think it’s interesting, the variety of ways women react to the same words.

Oh, man, I cannot *stand* “baby” as an endearment to an actual adult woman: like, I can tolerate it in Dirty Dancing because it’s her name/nickname, but anywhere else? God. No.

I

I normally hate the term myself, even in Dirty Dancing (maybe especially in Dirty Dancing). :) But in one tv show it worked. The first time he did it, the character said “back at you baby” just in passing, and it totally flew under my Ack! radar. The funny thing is it specifically stood out in my mind after as a “why didn’t I hate that?” moment. I think it may have been the fact that we knew the character really truly loved and respected the woman he said it to as an equal. Absolutely no condescension possibly implied.

Ha. My husband and I call each other baby. It just happened one day and now I can’t stop calling him that (though I do interchange honey, sweetie, darling with baby sometimes.) I’ve heard all the reasons why people hate it but it works for us. And neither of us means anything by it. Its just our preferred term of endearment.

Is that ‘picked her up’ as in ‘lifted her bodily’ ?

Now see, some of my favorite songs have the word “baby” in it. Like “My Baby Loves Me” and “I Can’t Give You Anything But Love” and “Can’t Take My Eyes Off Of You” - but maybe I like the word “baby” because “Jami” can be so easily substituted in a song for it….

It must be a regional thing. It’s a very common endearment in the South, like “love” in England. Old ladies in Louisiana call everyone baby, my daddy always called me baby (just like Delta Dawn, for those of you of a certain age), I call the 8 year old Diva baby, and lots of couples (including us) call each other baby. It’s another case of connotations, I guess.

I’m okay with “cream” if used as a noun, but not a verb. As in, “he licked her cream off his fingers”, not “she creamed herself”. For some reason it reminds me of peeing yourself. Don’t know why. It just does. As far as the discussion of the use of “cunt”, that is my one no-no word. I’m okay with dirty of any kind, but cunt is my deal breaker. If it’s a book once, I’ll probably overlook it, but if it’s used frequently to describe the girly bits, I’m done. Not to hijack this thread any further, but someone needs to come up with some words for the girly bits that aren’t too “purple-y” and that aren’t used in a derogatory way.

I think baby is regional in the US.  I’m more northern and it really bugs me that my more southern mother-in-law uses it with my much too old kids.

I’m not fond of baby or honey or dear.  I KNOW that tracks to hearing my parents use it a lot before their divorce.  I made some sort of kid connection between “love that doesn’t last” and “dear/honey” etc.  And I love nicknames that come from your name or something you did or said - it’s just the generic ones I don’t like. 

Cream for me conjures images of over the counter meds for infections.  I’m ok with pretty much anything else liquid.  I do really appreciate the effort to describe other parts of female arousal as well.

Although I’m used to cunt now that I’ve read some erotica, growing up it was in the top tier of worst swear words ever.  I actually like it when authors use “penis” and “vagina”.  It’s never bothered me.

I remember reading “the good parts” of Forever with friends in a music practice room in middle school and certain scenes from Flowers in the Attic at a sleepover at about the same age.  When I got older and was babysitting, I read romances off the shelves of the families I worked for.  I was very embarrassed that I might get caught, so I read with one eye on the window watching for headlights. :)

As for the original question - sorry, no idea!  I do recommend early Sandra Brown, though, I like her stuff a lot.  I think I’ve read them all and don’t remember the HABO book.

Oh yeah, I forgot:  not that I’ve ever read it in a romance, but I positively squick at the word “smegma.” 

Yes, I know it is a medical term, and maybe this is where my social conditioning kicks in (though both males and females produce it), but…just…ick.

I lived in Seattle during the late 80’s/early 90’s and there was a spinoff project by a few members of Pearl Jam (formerly of Mother Love Bone, notice a trend? Thank you Stone Gossard.) named Smegma and I couldn’t bring myself to say the name. (Yeah, I was still recovering from the repression…).

So, “cream:”  better than “smegma.”

Glad to see I’m not the only one who can’t stand the dreaded “creamed”
@ sandra, yes it was “picked her up” as in “lifted bodily”

“Creaming” and the description of a woman’s “cream” makes me think of something that’s opaque, and if something opaque is coming out of your nether regions, it’s time to see a doctor.

@Tessa - ‘smegma’ just makes me laugh because I associate it with Red Dwarf (where ‘smeg’ is their main swearword)

I think cunt is a great word, but I can’t stand it being used as an insult (though rather inconsistently I don’t care about dick or prick as insults). There aren’t too many good words available to describe a vulva, and ‘vulva’ can feel as awkward and un-sexy as vagina when used about yourself. Mind you, I can’t remember ever seeing ‘cunt’ in a sex scene, and I don’t particularly want to. I’ve heard too many men using it as an insult to want to see it in that context. Maybe that will change.

I hate, hate ‘pussy’ in sex scenes. To me it feels demeaning, though I’m not sure where I garnered that association. Probably because it’s yet another insult I do like ‘quim’ in Victorian novels, though only a few authors use it. It’s refreshingly free of association for me.

This is an awesome thread, by the way. :)

I wish I had an answer for the HABO, and I wouldn’t rule out an old Lovewept, Brown or otherwise… but I guess that word has never jumped out at me (enough to be memorable) in the old categories.  I’m sure I’ve read it in newer ones, just not vintage ones.

I had to laugh, tho—several people have been passing this link around on FB today.  It seems like an interesting segue from the earlier conversation about what is acceptable for males vs. females.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/8/26/896386/-Want-a-raise-Wash-your-vagina

Diane :)

I wonder if the “baby” dislike is, for me, one of those deals where I didn’t grow up with the word, so I can’t dissociate it from its other meanings—and possibly also related to not wanting kids myself? Actual babies, for me, aren’t particularly endearing: I’m glad other people find ‘em so—continuation of the species and all—and I’m happy to enthuse about my friends’, because, well, friends, but the main qualities I associate with them are helplessness, incontinence, noisiness, and a tendency to drool. So I don’t really find the comparison flattering. It’s a very personal thing, though, as people have said: I’m fond of “darling” and “my dear”, myself, neutral on “honey.”

Also, yeah, we need better words for girl-bits. I don’t mind “cunt”, like “quim”, and am severely *meh* on “pussy”: I just…cats? What? Ew. “Vagina” and “vulva” both throw me wildly out of a scene; conversely, I don’t particularly love descriptions that get all purple and metaphorical with the flowers and the jewels. (I remember some line about “the blood-red ruby of her maidenhead” in one of the really bad novels I read as a young thing. Yeeesh.)

@Sycorax: I’m pretty sure I’ve read ‘cunt’ in a romance sex scene (definitely in fanfic). I too like quim . . . the jury’s still out on ‘cunny’, which sounds just a little too juvenile and cutesy to me.

@Tessa - I must add that ‘smegma’ is miles better than ‘dick cheese’, which I’ve heard used by a guy. Again with the genitalia and dairy products…

@Cassie - I’m sure I must have encountered cunt, I just can’t… put my finger on it, so to speak. :p

I think Anne Stuart’s recent release, “Ruthless” used the term “cunt.”  I can’t remember if it was used in the actual sex scene; I’m pretty sure it was uttered in some context by the hero.

Whenever I hear “cream” I imagine thick, sweet pastry filing. So while it doesn’t gross me out like those of you who imagine infections, it just seems… improbable.

For the record i’m good with creamed, wet, moist and baby. I use pet names with platonic friends and my boyfriend constantly. And tmi i’m sure but I’ve been moist, gotten wet and i’d say i’ve creamed so go me! Medical and baking conotations aside, the non-gushing influx of moisture that accompanies orgasm seems like creaming to me.

I’m not so cool with damp though, i feel like a basement is damp, my vagina is not damp.

Which proves that maybe an author should focus on what their characters would say not what their prospective audience would like to hear.

Which proves that maybe an author should focus on what their characters would say not what their prospective audience would like to hear.

Well, yeah, except I would *really* like someone to use the below quote from Dora in a book some time :)

“He looked at her, his eyes glinting like the freshly laid backsplash in that Tuscan kitchen she’d always wanted, and she watched his hair toss in the wind like a wild pony leaping after a butterfly. And then she had to go clean up because she’d creamed herself.”

I think Sherrilyn Kenyon used “cunt” in some of her Dark-Hunter books. I know for sure she used “cock” for the guy’s penis.

I don’t really care for either word. I’d rather have the proper names then cunt, pussy, cock, dick - or even purple prose like manhood and velvet tunnel. Vulgar names for our body parts just seems - too cheap. Like if I’m not reading a love story, but a story about a man visiting a hooker.

Then again I’m weird.

To me, the terms “vagina” and “penis” are just too clinical for a good hot sex scene. There is just nothing hot about the phrase ” oh yeah, stick your penis in my vagina, baby”  Give me my cocks, dicks, pussies, and yes, even cunts.

I also hate when they spell come, c-u-m. I get it, its all juicy, but I’d much rather read ‘He made her come’ than the other. Ruins the moment for me.

I remember someone describing the hero’s equipment referring to the weeping head. All I could think of was his penis sobbing away because he wasn’t big enough to play in the magic cave.

We were watching the movie “Grease” one evening and my younger daughters asked what “cream” meant in the song “Greased Lightning.”  My husband looked at me and said, “I’m glad they askd you, not me, to explain that one.”

It’s too early to come up with names, but I know I’ve read cunt in erotic romances.  It used to bother me because of negative associations, but not so much any more. Depends on the tone of the book and the character.  When it’s a male internal dialog or sexy talk in a more explicit story, I think it’s more realistic to use cunt or pussy than vagina or a flowery euphemism.  Smacks of the more primal gotta-have-her-now turned-on male.  When it’s a female talking/thinking, the opposite.  Unless she is deliberately amping up the dirty talk for effect or the harder-edged eroticism goes with her character, it jars.  Maybe because I don’t use two words often myself, so if she’s at all like me, she wouldn’t use them much, LOL.

I prefer cock over dick.  Dick is still too much of an insult from adolescence - why are you insulting your best friend, dude?LMAO! 

Even with the smutty words, language is used to convey a message.  “I need your cock in my pussy right now!” and “I need you inside me right now!”  have essentially the same meaning.  But in the first one, there is a hint of emotional separation because of the naming of the parts, I get the idea this scene is about the sex.  The second one hints of more intimacy, you inside me, and gives the statement more emotional oomph.  Each have their place in telling a tale.

@sycorax - if you’ve ever read Lora Leigh, Shannon McKenna, etc., you’ve definitely come across the word “cunt” in pretty much all the sex scenes - but some authors can definitely have the Hero use the word in a very sexy way!

I’m not a huge reader of erotica or even particularly graphic romance.  I don’t think specific words or phrases affect me as much as the writing they are imbedded in.  So if your sex scene reads like one of those 70s porn novels with the line drawings on the covers, the cliches will swamp the sexiness every time.  If a scene is well-written and original and fits the characters, it will probably work for me regardless of specific terminology. 

I finally finished the In Death series not long ago.  It got so I’d just skim the sex scenes, because, though well written, there are just so many ways to describe the act.  However, all this discussion of the relative merits of creaming, wet, damp, moist, weeping, etc. arousal, kind of made me long for Dallas and Roarke to crest that wave one more time.  Made me giggle a bit, and that’s a good thing.

I’m a Southerner so I thought I’d weigh in on the use of “baby.”  I don’t see it as referring to an actual helpless, dependent baby but to the idea of a baby as precious/valuable. (And I don’t have kids or particularly want to have them.)  I’m not fond of “dear” myself; it reminds me of the bland, yes-dear sitcom relationships from the days of black and white TV.

As for the copious moisture descriptions, I think part of the problem is they’re overused as shortcuts.  She makes eye contact with a hunk across the room and all of a sudden she’s dripping?  WHA?!  Maybe she should just find a quiet corner and think herself off if that’s all it takes.

cunning of a linguist

@DreadPirateRachel,
I can not believe I’m the only one who spewed Coke/tea/coffee/lemonade/water upon reading this wonderful pun!

@krslu,

:-D

I guess that’s because we have dirty, dirty minds. Hehehe!

I used to have problems with cum until I learned that it is an appropriate spelling for what shows up when he comes.

As far as female arousal, cream does bother me, both as a reader and as a doc. What happens is that the genital area engorges and becomes more sensitive and wonderful pearly drops make their way down the vagina to lubricate any action that may occur. So I like heat, hot, even throbbing (yeah, I know, it’s usually the hero who throbs). Maybe she should glisten, become slippery with desire, flushed and satiny with expectation. Maybe there could be that twinge of excitement deep in her abdomen, that rush of warmth between her legs, that tingle of arousal. And, yes, cunt and cock are good English words and perfectly acceptable at such times, more so, I agree, than penis or vagina which is what I say in the office. So, come on, ladies who write, let’s get some good words going.

I think the book is A Compromising Passion by Nell Kincaid,  if I remember correctly,  creaming was involved in a completely salubrious way of course.

description from back cover courtesy of fictiondb

As a high-powered theatrical agent, Andrea Sutton made it her business to turn people into stars. But when the rugged ex—first baseman and magazine centerfold Jim Haynes came to her as a client, she was in trouble. Launching an athlete into an acting career was a challenge, but ignoring the man who’d been her fantasy lover since high school was going to be impossible. Then Jim took her in his strong arms and kissed her—and suddenly her fantasy became reality. She’d vowed she’d never mix business with pleasure. How could she have thrown out the rule book for a notorious womanizer who’d vowed to remain single forever? And what was worse—why did it suddenly seem as though no rules applied?

1: After all this off topic stuff I’m praying Boogenhagen is right.

2: Found out a website is doing a poll on Your Least Favorite Term For The Magic Love Tunnel.

http://bittenbybooks.com/?p=29575

It’s along the side there. You can pick up to 4.

SOunds like one of the Chicago Stars book the first one I think by Susan Elizabeth Phillips “It had to be you”

Not sure about the creaming reference but the rest seems familiar