Bitchin' Blog Posts
Everything I Know About Love: Marriage Is What Brings us Together Today
by SB Sarah | by SB Sarah | August 29, 2011 | Monday at 10:05 am | 58 Comments
Welcome to Everything I Know About Love, I Learned from Romance Novels, a column that pre-dates the upcoming book, but shares a title and the best of intentions: to demonstrate that many real-life problems can be examined with the strength and lessons of romance fiction. Today’s letter is about marriage.
Dear Smart Bitch Sarah,
I would love some advice from you and the Bitchery, regarding my rather contemporary guy problem.
My boyfriend and I have been together almost four and a half years and are still very much in love. He was, and is, a wonderful, kind, gorgeous, caring man that I would be lucky to spend my life with. After about a year of dating we started to throw around the, “well, someday when we get married…” talk. Being raised in a community of drum-beating hippies where many of my friends parents shunned the patriarchal institution of marriage in favour of “life partnering”, I recognize that marriage is not a necessity, but it’s something I have always wanted. I thought that my very traditional, old fashioned BF felt the same way.
Now, fast forward a couple of years to one month shy of our three year anniversary. My lady clock is starting to tick while all around me girlfriends are getting engaged and my family (read: my mother) is starting to drop hints. I ask him what he thinks about getting engaged in the next year or so and getting married in the next couple. He flips his lid. Totally loses it. He is a stunned, shocked, horrified mess at the mere mention of getting married. He said, “wouldn’t it be easier to go our separate ways if we’re not married?” Now I am a shocked, horrified mess and think that I have spent 3 years planning a future with a man that doesn’t know if he wants to stick around.
After about a year he managed to fully convince me that he doesn’t have one foot out the door and does want to marry me…someday. Eventually, but hey, what’s the rush, it’s just a slip of paper.
Has any woman ever dreamed of meeting her perfect man, dating for awhile, eventually cohabitating while keeping clear financial boundaries, eventually getting a dog as a test run and after 8 to 10 years of “just making sure” and extensive discussion, reaching a mutual decision with her partner to tie the knot in a quiet, low-fuss civil ceremony?
I think that I can safely speak for the majority of the romance-addicted bitchery that this scenario falls woefully short of the mark.
I can think of only a couple romance novels where the hero and heroine fall in lurrrve and don’t put the cherry on top with a mawwiage (that was an ode to the Princess Bride, by the way). I know many couples that don’t bother to make it official and have wonderful, long lives together. I also know that a marriage isn’t a guarantee that you’ll work out. While I don’t expect our life together to always read like a shiny, sexy romance I suppose I always hoped for the love of my life to feel something more than a commingling of terror and apathy at the thought of marrying me.
He’s recently started talking about, “for our wedding I’d like…” and saying, “when we get married…” I either want to cry, punch a hole in the wall or slink away in embarrassment. I have managed to leech all visible romance and eager anticipation from the prospect of a proposal. The entire thing seems ruined to me. I also recently found out that I can’t have kids, which adds an entire new dimension to my obsessing: if I don’t get to do the pregnancy/baby/mommy gig, can’t I at least have that stupid slip of paper, some tacky wedding photos and a cheap gold ring?
He may be low on the romance, but I do have a great guy that treats me like gold. Am I being a twat? Should I shut up, move on and count myself lucky regardless of whether or not we get married? If he does propose eventually can I in good conscience accept when I know that my marriage is taking place as a result of my tears and emotional blackmail?
Sincerely,
Where Have All the Knuckle Draggers Gone
Dear Knuckles:
You’re not being a complete twat, but clearly your hurts are overwhelming your clarity. I think that’s understandable.
It sounds as if the officially and legally binding commitment of marriage means a lot to you, particularly as you say you were raised in a community where challenging authority and institutional establishment was commonplace, and marriage as a state-defined commitment was disdained. Now, there is nothing wrong with wanting to be married. But whether you have a notarized marriage certificate or whether you’re living together happily and the only thing in both your names is the electric bill, relationships and happily-ever-afters still take work. The official stamp of federal joint tax returns doesn’t make marriage any easier or harder. It’s still tough.
As for your news of infertility, I’m so sorry. That sucks out loud and it sounds as if you are hurting from it. But even if you can’t do the “pregnancy” part, you can absolutely have the baby/mommy gig through a few different options. Granted, some of them take longer than nine months (and are just as difficult, hooray) but it can be done. There are many, many ways to welcome a child into your heart and your home, and if you want to be a mother, infertility is an obstacle that can be and has been circumvented.
But you need to work out your relationship problems first, obviously. Parenthood is enough of an emotional hurdle without bringing relationship struggles into it. There’s no sense in bringing a child into your drama, and your feelings about being a spouse and about being a parent are different things. They’re related, but for the time being you need to separate them a bit.
That said, holy hell, did your man screw up. He essentially said, when you asked about that permanent binding commitment, “But what if I want to leave?” NOT COOL. No wonder it’s taken a year or more for you to begin to trust him again. And it sounds like you still don’t trust him entirely. I understand that. He did a number on your confidence in his feelings for you.
I think the first step is an honest, possibly painful conversation wherein you explain how you’ve been feeling, vent all your hurt and frustrations of the past year, and explain specifically how his recent talk of marriage makes you feel guilty, ashamed, and hurt. If he’s been acquiescing to the idea of marriage because it is important to you, and he personally finds it repugnant, you need to hear that as well, and hear his reasons why. You have to explain, and you have to listen, and so does he. This is not going to be an easy conversation to have.
But if you want an unpolluted future with this person, you need to be honest, get your feelings out of your head and into the air between you, and then, together, get past them. Time to move on, either together, or separately.
Part of why there’s so much marriage in romance is because once you tie the knot, it can be very hard to undo. In the expectations of the reader, courtship leads to commitment. However, happy ever afters can be tough. There is no “just making sure” and “we’re good enough for now.” There are “happy for now” endings in romance but in most cases, the likelihood of forever afterward is more than a mere possibility. Most romances, however, end with a defined moment that establishes the relationship as permanent.
Real life certainly doesn’t come with guarantees like that, but you aren’t out of line for hoping that your boyfriend of four-plus years would be able to say without test-dogs and joint finances that he is sure you are the person he wants to be with. If he’s not sure, it’s time to end the relationship and find someone who is as sure about you as you are about them. By focusing on marriage, you’re asking him to declare his surety that you’re the one for him permanently. If he’s not willing or able to make that declaration, with or without marriage, it’s time to ask yourself hard questions about moving on.
As for weddings, some people do live together, and quietly have a no-fuss civil ceremony because that’s what is meaningful and beautiful to them. Other people want as many ruffles as possible. Both are totally ok.
But there’s a balance between what you want, and what your boyfriend wants, and that’s what you need to find. There is room for fewer ruffles in your dream wedding, for example. But there is not much room for “If you love me, you’ll want what I want” in a relationship - and neither is there a lot of room for, “Well, you’re good enough for now, but maybe someday we’ll break up.”
That balance, if you can find it, may mean that you move on separately, or move on together. But you need to stop thinking about this in your own head, have a painfully honest conversation, and see what happens. Good luck to you.
Filed: Everything I Know About Love I Learned from Romance Novels, General Bitching, Smart Bitch Advice
Tagged: princess bride, everything i know about love i learned from romance novels, eikal, asshattery, advice
AgTigress said on 08.29.11 at 12:28 PM • [link]
I think this is a really difficult one.
The situation can almost certainly be saved along all the lines that SB Sarah suggests; that is, assuming that the bloke is committed to the relationship deep down, which I think he may well be, since he is now, rather clumsily, apparently trying to make amends. He has realised belatedly how much the whole marriage thing matters to his partner.
I think the key point in the letter is:
The marring of something perfect, in this case, the response that the writer imagined, hoped for and expected from her man, is something that all of us find really hard to accept, but it is important to discipline oneself not to feel that ‘the entire thing is ruined’: only the perfect response and the proposal have been ruined, and those are only moments within what is planned to be a lifetime together. It matters: it is disappointing and hurtful. But it is not a deal-breaker.
It’s as though someone who hoped for and expected top marks for a qualifying examination were to be so disappointed by merely getting a good pass, and failing to achieve summa cum laude then started questioning her whole career choice because she was unable to embark on it ‘perfectly’.
Life is full of disappointments and imperfections, but we should not let them taint all the good things.
Kaetrin said on 08.29.11 at 12:35 PM • [link]
What Sarah said. And AgTigress too actually. Sometimes one has to let go of “perfect” to appreciate an attractive (sometimes even, better) alternative. A heart to heart with the BF is the best starting point.
Batty Tabby said on 08.29.11 at 01:19 PM • [link]
I’ve been with my husband for almost 14 years now, married for 10.5 of them, and the thing I try to learn to do is accept my love’s “livable” flaws. I realize I have flaws too, and I really appreciate that he doesn’t make a big deal out of them. It’s not that he ignores them or won’t help me out in getting past their problematic aspects. His patience and understanding helps me to offer him the same.
Then there are the bigger problems, and we’ve had a few. I agree with Sarah, it’s important to face what’s really eating at you and your (plural) relationship right now and talk about it.
My personal strategy for preparing for things like that is to either journal about it in as much detail as I can manage and/or writer a letter to him about it (that I don’t really plan to give to him, but I pretend I will as I write it). I read it when I am done because this organizes it in my brain into key points I want to talk about and which problems are priorities. Often, I realize something was bothering me that I did not realize before. It gives me confidence that I understand myself and am ready to deal with the issues.
I also realize my partner often understands me a lot better than I give him credit for. When we get to “the talk,” I often find myself learning a lot more about myself.
A couple of times, “the talk” has led nowhere but to frustration caused by feelings of being unable to cooperatively resolve problems yet a strong desire to make them right. That’s when we decided we needed to see a counselor, which was very helpful. A third party who had no investment in our relationship except a desire to assist made a lot of difference at that time.
Big *hugs* to you.
Lucy said on 08.29.11 at 01:28 PM • [link]
Wow. This is so hard, and I’m so sorry, Knuckles. You are obviously in a lot of pain, and you have every right to feel exactly what you’re feeling. The only thing I can tell you is that Sarah’s right - an honest conversation is called for. While there is absolutely room for compromise, and must be in any relationship, you need to know what your lines are. If you know that you will not be happy without marriage, and he knows he won’t be with it, then you need to take that into consideration, and you need to face it bravely. Know where you can compromise, know where you can’t, and go into that conversation ready to face the consequences of that knowledge. Be sure to tell him the same thing, too.
I had twelve years of a marriage that went from meh to worse because I wouldn’t be honest with myself, or with him, about what I wanted and needed. I didn’t want to lose the relationship, and so I compromised on things until there was nothing of me left. Of course, this flavors my advice to you, so keep that in mind. I’m on my second marriage now, and the difference is staggering. I thought I hated the institution of marriage; it turns out, I really just hated what I did to it.
Think about what you absolutely need from him, and what you really don’t. I can tell you this - a piece of paper makes it hard to leave, so very very hard, but it doesn’t make it impossible. The promise comes from the person, not the paper. If he can make you that promise with his full heart, and that’s enough for you, then that’s great. But if it’s not, don’t compromise something that really matters to you.
And last, it doesn’t matter what matters to you, but that it matters to you. No one else can tell you if it’s right or wrong for a piece of paper to mean that much to you, because there is no right or wrong here. There is just honesty, with yourself and your boyfriend, and honesty is the most important factor in a relationship that’s going to last. Trust me on that one; that I know for sure.
I wish you the best of luck, with everything.
Faellie said on 08.29.11 at 01:44 PM • [link]
The difference between “you’re the only one for me permanently” and “you’re the only one for me but what if it’s not permanent” could be the difference between an optimist and a pessimist, rather than the difference between love and not-love.
The only way to find out is to talk to each other. Seeds of a “big misunderstanding” otherwise.
Mary Anne Graham said on 08.29.11 at 02:08 PM • [link]
There’s no one-size-fits-all in life, but it’s probably not the ease of break up that’s been keeping your guy from making it permanent and it’s not the “free milk” either. It’s probably the fact that you’ve been doing all the work of a wife and making his life easy and comfortable without him ever having to commit to anything.
I agree with Sarah that you need to talk to him. Maybe you should tell him that you are ready for a committed relationship but you don’t want to push him into anything. Suggest a temporary separation in which you both see other people and be prepared to follow through. That puts the ball in his court. He may agree about the separation or he may have to do some real work to court and convince you of his intentions.
It’s even possible that you separate without separating. Stop doing all the things that make his life so easy and set your schedule around what you want. You can text him or leave him a note about your plans. He’d probably demand an explanation and then you could have the talk because he wanted it…
And if/when you do get ready to be married, be sure you want marriage and not just a wedding. Most of the “big weddings” I’ve been involved in ended in divorce. Create a ceremony that fits you. Mine was in the park by a co-worker who was a notary. It was casual and beautiful. I had a friend whose b/friend owned a restaurant. They got married in their church w/only their parents/siblings there and then came back to the restaurant, put on jeans and had a big party with their friends.
Also- keep in mind that you do have options to be a mother but I agree you need to settle your life first. With or without him or any man, you can parent and raise a child.
Life is full of doors. Take a deep breath and stop feeling trapped. You’re only out of choices if you don’t give yourself any. Whatever happens with this man, you’re going to be fine.
AgTigress said on 08.29.11 at 02:14 PM • [link]
Faellie, I think that is a very interesting and valuable comment.
Angelia Sparrow said on 08.29.11 at 02:40 PM • [link]
Legal marriage is much much more than “a slip of paper and a tacky gold ring.” It is over 1100 federal and state rights, including the ability to inherit, to keep possession of joint property, rights of hospital visitation and medical decisions. (I’m a marriage activist, and most of the time my characters don’t get a legal wedding, unless they’re SF)
Let me put on my minister hat here, and say that marriage is not created by ceremonies and dresses and rings. It’s created every day in a million small ways between the couple themselves. On a spiritual and emotional level, the people who have cohabited for two decades are just as married as the ones who went through the ceremony.
The problem I’m seeing is that you were thinking of yourselves as married, just awaiting The Perfect Scenario. BF was thinking of you as an item, but one he could leave. Differing expectations are the cause of most relationship strife. You need to clear the air and work it out, not plunge headfirst into legal entanglements with differing ideas of your future.
Also? Romance is not the relationship. Romance is the launching pad for the relationship. Eros (romantic love) gets you off the ground. Other kinds of love, phileo (friendship) and storge (settled mature love), are what keep you flying. Your Sermon of the Day from Mama Angel.
anonymous said on 08.29.11 at 02:58 PM • [link]
This is the first one of these where I’ve really been convinced that some professional counseling is the way to go. This couple needs someone who is as invested as they are, who will be there through the entire process of working through this conflict and helping them reach a resolution.
This conflict seems to me to rise from both the core of their relationship and from the core of their respective personalities. To solve it, they are going to have to talk about and reveal things that will make them extremely vulnerable to hurt, and I would love to see them with a trained “spotter” at hand because the degree of difficulty for this maneuver seems awfully high to me.
The best of luck to both of them.
Alia said on 08.29.11 at 03:32 PM • [link]
How to Handle A Big Misunderstanding: Talk, and give each other permission to screw up and start over. (We go, “Can I have a do-over?” and one of us will leave the room, walk in and start the conversation over. It works surprisingly well.)
If It Isn’t A Big Misunderstanding: Ok, so I’m a puddle of neuroses, but if my boyfriend said, “What if I find someone better?” I would think, “What, you’re looking?” and I would cry. A lot. And probably break up with them… or at least be prepared to.
(I get that I am not quoting, but that’s what I would *hear* if he said he didn’t want to get married because it would be hard to get a divorce.)
...(For me, YMMV) A wedding is not about saying, “This person is the one and only person I could ever be happy with, the rest of you suck.”
(though they do. but anyway….)
My wedding was about saying “This person is pretty damn awesome, and we are both—here and now in front of our community in the most embarrassing and public way possible so none of us ever forget it—committing to make it work whether things are awesome or not and for the rest of our lives. And you all who are watching? It’s your job to help us make it work. In token of that, go eat.”
...If your partner is awesome now, but not willing to work to keep being an awesome partner later (because you will change, he will change, the climate will change), then… the relationship will become less awesome. And that is a sad thing.
I know an adorable couple, married for 15 or twenty years… they were an arranged marriage. They were both willing to do the work to make living together pleasant, and they are beautiful and loving and hilarious.
...so… The big misunderstanding might not be whether or not you both want to be married, but what you think marriage is or will change…
(for me, it truly changed the nature of our relationship—I knew he was willing to withstand excruciating public embarrassment *and* fill out government paperwork to be with me, and that was very reassuring.)
Good luck. I hope you find your happy ending and have the strength to see what comes after, too.
Lara Amber said on 08.29.11 at 03:45 PM • [link]
My advice is a little blunt: pack and leave.
When my boyfriend of 4 years didn’t seem ready to propose, I gave him until our 5th anniversary to figure out what he wanted and to propose. (He didn’t say “what if I want to leave” but “what if getting married ruins everything” and “what if our marriage turns out like my parents marriage”.) On our anniversary he chickened out and couldn’t ask. So I started to pack that night. Once he realized I really meant it and was not just leaving our house but leaving the state and there were no more second chances, he sat in the living room and thought about what life would be like without me. Finally he came and got me and got down on both knees and asked. We got married on our six year anniversary. We’ve now been together 12 years.
A true “I’m out of here” will force him to think instead of coasting along. He will either decide “wait a minute, I’ve been taking a good thing for granted” or “no, we’re not forever material”. Either way you won’t be in limbo about your future.
Lara Amber said on 08.29.11 at 03:47 PM • [link]
Oh, and can I also recommend the book Should We Stay Together? by Jeffrey Larson, not only to think about your potential marriage, but as a sort of self-directed pre-marital counseling.
Lynn M said on 08.29.11 at 03:56 PM • [link]
If marriage is important to you, either as a gesture of his determination to remain in this relationship through thick and thin or as a way for you to publicly declare your commitment to each other, then you have every right to expect it from the person who claims to love you. There is nothing wrong with that or with you for wanting it. All of this talk of “it’s just a piece of paper” is hogwash, IMO. Marriage is so much more than a piece of paper - it it weren’t, why would it be an institution that has been the backbone of society for most of human history? I’m not saying that people who choose to not get married are wrong or don’t have a valid, loving relationship. Just that I think they are fooling themselves if they equate what they have with a legally and/or religiously sanctioned marriage. As further proof, if “marriage” was so insignificant, why would so many people have their panties in a twist over the prospect of legalized gay marriages?
That said, I agree with Sarah that a difficult discussion has to happen. My hubby and I dated for 2 years long distance (after having dated a year in college) when I realized that if this relationship wasn’t leading to marriage, I needed to move on. Yes, he was a great guy and I loved him. But I had a vision for my future and I felt I owed it to myself to follow that dream, which included marriage (with that makes-a-huge-difference piece of paper). As much as I don’t advocate ultimatums, I told him that while I loved him, if he couldn’t envision us being married within the next couple of years, I needed to move on. The ball was in his court. He thought on it a while, and 18 months later we were married. We’ve been married now for 18 years and neither of us has any regrets.
So I think you owe it to your great guy to ask him why he said what he said, what he meant by it in maybe some nicer words, and how he feels about marriage now. If his vision for your future isn’t the same as the one you want for yourself, you might have to cut him loose. Otherwise, you’ll spend years resenting him, and that’s no way to live your life with another person.
Ashley said on 08.29.11 at 04:07 PM • [link]
Great point, Alia:
He seems worried about what marriage will take away, you seem interested in what marriage will add. Maybe y’all should talk about what you both fear to lose/hope to gain.
Also agree with AgTigress. “Let not the perfect be the enemy of the good.” Voltaire.
As an infertility veteran, I feel for you (am crying, actually). But kids don’t make things better (or perfect), just different. I hope good things for you.
Isabel C. said on 08.29.11 at 04:45 PM • [link]
What Faelie said.
Also, without knowing the exact context, I can think of another interpretation for “going our separate ways”: not that he wants the freedom to leave, but that he wants to know *you* do.
I have many friends who are married. It works great for them, there are definite material and emotional advantages, and I was very happy to be a part of their weddings. For me…well, my own insecurities regarding relationships are easier to live with when I know the guy has made no promises, and that if he didn’t want to be there, he would have a much easier time leaving.
Just wanted to throw that possible perspective out there.
Amber said on 08.29.11 at 04:50 PM • [link]
I had a similar thing happen… but worse. He balked after we had been together for 5 tears, long engaged AND wedding plans HAD BEEN LAID. Le sigh.
We made our way back together (in fact, neither of us could really stand to be apart). As he should, he accepted total blame for the shitstorm, but I did understand that a lot of stuff was going on his life at the time AND that he had normal male scaredy-catness. The OMG-this-is-forever hit him really hard. That doesn’t excuse his behavior, and he had mucho groveling to do (and even got a tattoo with my name BEFORE I agreed to marry him again, just to show his permanence). Now we’ve been married 5 years, things are SO MUCH BETTER than he or I could have foreseen. We are closer than we ever thought possible, so happy together, the “spark” is actually stronger than it’s ever been, (the sex is fan-freaking-tastic), and we have an awesome son (though I am personally pushing for adoption for the next 1-2 kids).
The moral of the story is that it can work out. It can work out VERY WELL.
However, the wedding still sucked balls. It just wasn’t the same knowing it wasn’t the first one we planned, and the whole way through I was miserable. I seriously regret not hoofing it to Vegas and just bein’ done. Maybe if I were a stronger woman, I could’ve overcome my hurt at the whole thing enough to enjoy the wedding, but I couldn’t. I’m not sure exactly how much this will affect you vs me, considering my wedding had been much further along in the planning stages, but the feelings you describe sound similar. My recommendation would be to do a quickie ceremony. Or maybe a destination wedding, just the two of you. Something that you will ENJOY, of course, but not something that will be big and grand, and make you pull your hair out and STILL not be satisfied when it’s all said and done. If you’re anything like I was, I kept waiting for the fabulousness of the wedding to overcome the hurt I felt about the whole mess - and it’s just not going to happen.
But I’d say, given all the nice things you have to say about this guy, and that it seems like you two are so great for each other, don’t give up on him just because he got cold feet at some point. You have to remember that guys are stupid sometimes. Part of being a good mate is forgiving them when they do that, especially when they are willing to come back around. The little hints he’s dropping about a wedding, while they are understandably painful for you to hear, are his way of showing you that he is WITH THE PROGRAM. I do think you need to do like Sarah said and make sure he understands how hurt you were by his earlier words, and that you viewed it as a betrayal. But at some point, it’s put up or shut up time for YOU to decide whether you’ll stay with the boy, despite his sometimes-stupidity.
Flo said on 08.29.11 at 05:03 PM • [link]
Get out while the getting is good.
If he won’t commit NOW after four years and he keeps dropping those hints WHILE NOT ASKING TO MARRY YOU… leave. He has what he wants. He’s got the cow and the milk for free.
Is that cold and cruel? Maybe. But look how you feel? It’s YOUR fault. It’s YOUR problem. Clearly, it’s all on YOUR side… bull and shit. It takes two to tango. Obviously, you’re doing the dance all by yourself.
My dad would say “Fish or cut bait” and in this case, even with the years together and the time together it is JUST NOT WORTH IT. Don’t destroy or remake yourself for this person. You are what you are supposed to be. No amount of time is going to make him suddenly wake up and realize “POOF! I love her! I shall marry her! Now!” And having all the joy leached out of it is HORRIBLE.
I’m not you and I’ve never been in the situation where I waited. But I KNEW, in every ounce of my being, that my husband was going to BE my husband. And so did he. He wasted no time in letting me know I was his and he was mine.
Your dude may be a very nice guy. But he doesn’t seem like THE guy for you. But that’s my 2cents.
cleo said on 08.29.11 at 05:15 PM • [link]
I can think of two couples I know in similar situations - long term couples where the woman wanted to get married / was ready to get married before the man and where the man eventually came around and proposed. One couple was divorced within one or two years - he never really committed to the whole marriage thing and it just didn’t work. And the other couple is still married after almost 10 years and 2 kids and he is the most devoted husband - they’re a great couple.
RaeRae said on 08.29.11 at 05:29 PM • [link]
1. Totally have the heart to heart like Sarah suggested.
2. If you don’t get any resolution, it’s ultimatum time.
Two relationships ago, I didn’t give an ultimatum. We were together for four years, the last year was miserable, and he ended up cheating on me and leaving me to marry another woman he’d met online.
My last relationship, I did give an ultimatum. He declined, I left, and I am grateful every day that I got out when I did.
My current relationship, I’m about 6-12 months from an ultimatum. We’ll see how it goes. Like you I find marriage to be a core value for myself, and if a guy doesn’t feel the same then he’s not the one for me. I wish you the best of luck!
Hannah said on 08.29.11 at 05:31 PM • [link]
I say, either get out of the relationship now, or give him an ultimatum, like we get married in six months or we’re done.
Stephanie said on 08.29.11 at 05:53 PM • [link]
I just wanted to point out to everyone condemning her for wanting the “perfect” wedding/proposal - that’s not what I got from the email.
From what I read, she knows marriage is going to be hard work and she’s willing to put fourth the effort, but she’s not sure that her boyfriend is will to do the same.
I don’t think she’s asking for the perfect proposal and the perfect wedding and the perfect HEA. I think she wants a proposal that she doesn’t feel like she had to rip unwillingly from him. There’s a huge difference.
I think that marriage is important to her, but she wants assurance from him that he wants it too; that he’s in it with her, and not just going through the motions to appease her.
Honestly? I don’t know what to tell you at all. I don’t know the guy in question and I’m not familiar with your relationship. Obviously, even though you say you’re past that comment he made, you still believe he has one foot out the door and I can’t blame you for that. You need to figure out why you’re still feeling that way - because of the blow that was to your sense of stability or because, despite his convincing you over the course of the year, some things (even just little things or comments!) have made you still doubt his commitment. The first one is something you’ll have to work on, or maybe you can work on that together, and in the case of the second one, you should definitely leave. But NOT until you have that Big Talk.
It’s possible that he is just too comfortable. It’s possible that you guys want different things. There’s no way for any of us to know without knowing both of you. You need to talk.
(Also - as an adopted kid, I just want to say that adoption is a wonderful institution. If you can get past the “not being pregnant” part, please consider it)
CathyKJ said on 08.29.11 at 06:05 PM • [link]
I think it’s time for a serious, honest, heart-wrenching, all the cards on the table, talk.
I’m in a similar situation with my boyfriend - we’ve been together 9 1/2 years and bought a house last year. I will not threadjack with our whole history, but I will say you need and your boyfriend need to know exactly where the other stands, and decide where to go from there. If marriage is important to you, he needs to respect that - whether that means by marrying you, or by leaving you so you can find someone who is ready for that. And, you need to be prepared to accept and trust his answer - whatever that may be.
AgTigress said on 08.29.11 at 06:10 PM • [link]
I think that those who recommend an immediate split, or even an ultimatum, are over-reacting in this particular case. Alternatively, I suppose I may be under-reacting, but I do not see, in what the writer told us, any real evidence that the man is emotionally detached. I think the writer’s hurt and disappointment over a couple of romantic details have been upsetting enough to undermine her confidence in the whole relationship. I honestly don’t think that issuing ultimatums, or packing up and leaving, will help. On the contrary, they would simply be the death-knell of the relationship.
The diverse views of marriage that have been expressed here are very significant, and clearly, if two partners have completely different perceptions of the institution, they must discuss it and get it straight. For many of us, marriage really is no more than a traditional (and sometimes useful) legal convention quite unconnected with the creation and maintenance of a permanent pair-bond. For others, it is something mystical, romantic, and a religious sacrament. That’s a pretty wide range of perception.
In the past, there was little or no choice over these matters; if a couple wanted to live together, they had to marry or face really severe social disapproval and sanctions that could affect their lives and livelihood. Now we can choose. But we still need to understand each other’s feelings on the subject for any choice to work smoothly.
Jody W. said on 08.29.11 at 06:45 PM • [link]
Sounds like the letter writer’s fretfulness is based on the BF’s proven reluctance to agree that they are “it” for each other, to agree that they will work equally toward that goal. Despite his offhand “future marriage” comments, his freakout at the thought of being with her and only hear for the rest of his life has not been rectified. Whether marriages/commitments end up as “you and only you forever and ever”, that’s generally how most people go into it (Hollywood celebs notwithstanding), and if somebody is not willing to agree on “you and only you”, then there are issues to be parsed.
Hopefully she can work it out with him, if that’s what she wants!
My verification word is george83. Hee! DH’s name is George. I’d like to be with him forever and ever, plus 83 years.
Jill Sorenson said on 08.29.11 at 06:46 PM • [link]
My husband and I dated for 8 years before we got married. We were teenagers when we met, so that makes a difference. I was ready a year or so before he finally agreed to make me an honest woman. :) We went to the jewelry store together so I could pick the ring I wanted. He got down on one knee and proposed in my parents’ driveway before we went inside to announce our engagement.
Perfect? No. But I never doubted his commitment to me.
I’m curious about how the couple has been communicating since his freak-out. I would have wanted to resolve the issue right then and there. Actually, I think I’d have walked out the door. This situation calls for a major grovel.
kkw said on 08.29.11 at 06:57 PM • [link]
Romance novels make it clear that it’s very important to talk openly and honestly about what’s going on, as that is usually the only thing postponing happily ever after. I’m not disagreeing with that, I think Sarah, AgTigress, Faellie, et al. are very eloquent on that score, and totally right. Personal experience, alas, has shown me that talking openly and honestly about my feelings accomplishes only an outbreak of hives, or worse, tears. I think it’s silly to base advice strictly on personal experience - my boyfriend manned up (or didn’t), so yours will (or won’t) - but in case other people don’t have the knack of this mysterious communication business, here’s what I’ve got. Don’t go with straight ahead category romance for these situations, think rom-com instead. It’s a comedy of errors, not an angst-ridden bodice ripper. He says the worst thing, she has the worst reaction - how can we possibly come back from this one? It’ll be a wild crazy ride, but love, laughter, and lots of sex win out in the end. Channel more of a Crusie heroine than an old school victim type. Which is not to say that Knuckles is over-reacting, or being victimized, or anything like that, at all, but that when one wants High Romance and is offered everyday life, it makes sense to embrace the painfully funny, mundane side of romance.
JL said on 08.29.11 at 07:08 PM • [link]
I’m with Stephanie on this one. Huge difference between wanting a perfect princess wedding and feeling like you dragged someone kicking and screaming to the alter.
I was in a similar situation and relate deeply to the advice seeker. My hubby (married 3 weeks ago!) and I were dating for six years, very happy. But, being academics, I had to make a lot of decisions and sacrifices for his career and mine. I wanted the reassurance of marriage to know he financially and emotionally valued the sacrifices I made since I made a whole lot more than him. He didn’t want to get married until he was established, with a career and home to his name. I thought that was the most unromantic and unfair opinion ever. But as I look back, it was romantic in his own way that he wanted to ‘provide’ for me as a husband. In the end, he proposed because we thought had to move to a different country. We didn’t end up moving but had announced the engagement anyway. I was almost embarrassed that I didn’t have a more romantic engagement, but in the end he pointed out that he was happy to marry me even though ‘the reason’ was no longer there. I had a wonderful wedding.
So, my advice is that you can get over that weird unromantic feeling once you know he wants to marry you. Real love makes every wedding romantic, in my opinion. But you need that heart to heart desperately. I would say don’t give an ultimatum if he isn’t ready to propose in X amount of months, but consider a break if he is unwilling to really understand WHY this is important to you. Building a life together is a huge commitment and about more than romance, which I actually think you understand better than he does. Communication is everything. He needs to understand why you want to get married, and if he refuses to see it as anything but a romantic formality then cut him loose…
Rainytown said on 08.29.11 at 08:00 PM • [link]
It’s your life and your relationship, Knuckles, but I keep coming back to your comment that the joy has been leached out of the process by your boyfriend’s unwillingness to realize how important this is for you.
I’m sure I’ll be flamed for admitting to the following, but it’s the truth. I’ve been married for many years now. I love my husband, but if I had it to do over again, I would not have married him. I didn’t need a proposal on live national TV, or a ring stuck in the dessert at an expensive restaurant. I would have been very happy if he had gotten down on one knee and asked me to marry him. He did not. It was the first (and biggest,) indicator that I wasn’t going to have what I hoped for. I caved on a lot of things that were important to me because I loved him, and I thought I had to. I have nobody to blame for this but myself.
You deserve to have someone that is every bit as excited and happy about marrying you as you are to marry him. If he’s not, please think twice.
Rose Fox said on 08.29.11 at 08:03 PM • [link]
Wow, I’m stunned by the people saying “pack up and get out”. That’s really strong advice to give based on a single letter!
The OP asked:
Has any woman ever dreamed of meeting her perfect man, dating for awhile, eventually cohabitating while keeping clear financial boundaries, eventually getting a dog as a test run and after 8 to 10 years of “just making sure” and extensive discussion, reaching a mutual decision with her partner to tie the knot in a quiet, low-fuss civil ceremony?
I didn’t dream of it, but it’s exactly what’s happened to me, other than the dog (we have two cats) and the clear financial boundaries; my partner and I merged finances (and, more crucially, libraries) when we moved in together a year and a bit after we fell in love. Another year and a half later, we started talking about how we wanted to be together and support each other through difficult times, at which point we realized we were basically reciting wedding vows. Oops. Good thing neither of us had their heart set on a romantic proposal! We had a non-legal commitment ceremony on our fourth anniversary. Now we’ve been together nine years and change and we’re talking about getting legally married. (We live in New York State and were waiting until it was legal for everyone.) Again, no romantic proposal, just practical discussions of how it would affect our finances.
I’ve been the one saying “Gosh, this legal marriage thing would be a big commitment!” even though we’re tremendously happy together and have made all sorts of other commitments, including some that are legally binding like having a joint bank account. It’s not because I don’t love my partner. Far from it! It’s because I’m a worrier. The other day I turned to him in some disbelief and said that I actually could not imagine a scenario in which we split up. My imagination is pretty strong, especially when it comes to imagining disasters. And even though I know that we’ve been through one disaster after another—including him comforting me through the death of someone I loved very much, me comforting him through the collapse of his first marriage, repeated bouts of ill health and injury on my part, and two economic crashes that left him out of work and miserably depressed for years—and have always emerged stronger and happier than ever, in the back of my head I’m always waiting for something to come up that will destroy our partnership and leave me alone and miserable.
That’s not in any way a reflection on my partner. It’s just who I am. My partner knows that and he doesn’t take it personally. He just focuses on giving me ammo to fight back against the demons of fear and doubt.
So if your partner’s cold feet are about him being prone to anxiety and not about you, then I would urge you to help him fight back against the fear. That doesn’t mean setting aside your own needs and desires; of course you should tell him that you were hoping for enthusiasm and a romantic proposal rather than resignation and practicality, and you should seriously consider whether you want to be making a lifetime commitment to someone who’s inclined to anxiety and pragmatism in situations where you feel there should be gleeful bouncing up and down. But it sounds like things are otherwise really terrific, so I suggest it would be worthwhile for you to talk with him about how you can help him feel more secure and less fretful.
Identify the real source(s) of his worries and you’ll know how to react to them. There might be a brain chemistry component (and perhaps you should be urging him toward therapy and/or meds if his anxiety gets in the way of other parts of his life) and there might be a component of his personal history (my mother’s first marriage fell apart almost immediately and the second lasted twenty miserable years, and my partner’s split with his first wife was really unpleasant, so it’s hard for me to even know what a happy, stable marriage looks like). If the foot-dragging is about him not really wanting to be with you in the long term, then yes, time to get going. If it’s stemming from something else, the two of you can cement your partnership by fighting your demons and his demons together.
Stephanie said on 08.29.11 at 08:09 PM • [link]
I also feel the need to say, because I forgot to before, that issuing an ultimatum isn’t going to do much to convince you that he’s doing it willingly.
PJ Dean said on 08.29.11 at 08:14 PM • [link]
This is a tough one. All I can say is if it were a marriage of 3 years and the guy wanted out, it would be no different. A broken heart is a broken heart no matter how long the hearts were bound. Relationships come together and can fall apart. I rather not be in one where I’m the only one holding it together.
Jrant said on 08.29.11 at 08:49 PM • [link]
Ditto on Sarah’s recommendation of an honest talk, and on most of the other suggestions. I wanted to tack on two points:
1- Please own your feelings. Some kind of compromise is called for here, but you make things unfairly hard for yourself if you have the “I shouldn’t feel angry/guilty/disappointed….I should be grateful/less picky” chorus playing in the back of your head.
2- The “pack up and leave” suggestion is viable, but think REALLY hard before going that path. If you don’t think you can get your needs met in this relationship, yes, you should move on. But do NOT use it as a bluffing/negotiating tactic. If you say you’re going to leave unless X, then you need to be committed to actually leaving. Empty threats just bring a whole new dimension of trouble to your relationship.
Sheila said on 08.29.11 at 09:01 PM • [link]
How has this man reacted to her infertility? What does he feel about not having a child by her? Or not having a child at all? Or adopting? Or surrogacy? Is he supporting her through this time of pain and acceptance?
If he’s not being as supportive as a loving husband would be through a very difficult situation, including feeling his own pain and sharing it with her so she’s not out on an emotional limb all alone, he’s not committed to her emotionally. How then is he so wonderful?
And why is this woman walking on eggs around this man? He’s not doing her any favors by living with her and having sex with her and making sure she isn’t alone on Saturday nights and walking the dog with her and just possibly sharing household chores with her, too. She’s not a kept woman who owes him gratitude for any of this; it’s a free exchange. She’s so lucky? Really?
She might be lucky. He might be wonderful after all. She needs to talk to him about the babies she won’t be having and the wedding she’d once dreamed of with the eager fiance she’d hoped would share that day—-and the happy husband she wants in her future.
I wish her well. I’m sorry for her loss. Life is not perfect for any of us, but it can be happier than this.
Isabel C. said on 08.29.11 at 09:23 PM • [link]
@Rose: I’m kind of with you in general. And the scenario there *is* pretty much what I dream of, with certain very loose definitions of “cohabitation” because I am no fun to live with, when I dream of marriage at all. (I like rituals, I like parties, but I’d rather have a ritual/party without the accompanying family politics and the Bridesmaid Drama and so on. Although I hear cake-tastings are awesome.)
To play Totally Unqualified Internet Psychiatrist for a second, OP: it sounds like you’re upset about your boyfriend’s reaction, which is reasonable, but it also sounds like that’s part of a much bigger “I am at the age where my future is becoming my present and OMGWTF” picture. Those things happen to most of us, and they tend to throw people for a loop.
Your boyfriend might be having the opposite reaction, honestly. You can love someone a whole lot, want to stay with them, and still freak out about marriage. You grow up thinking that getting married is something you’ll do someday, you know, In The Future. But The Future is a nebulous concept, full of flying cars and the possibility that you might learn to paint or become an Argentinian secret agent or whatever. Then your SO starts talking about marriage, and hey, The Future just solidified! This is it! This is the person you’ll be with forever, which means you’re the person you’ll *be* forever*, and everything’s all permanent and tied-down and solid. No matter how much you love someone, that shit can hit you like a brick to the chest.
In your shoes? I’d talk to the guy about it, of course: where exactly he sees the relationship going in five years, and *why*. (Yeah, it’s a horrible conversation. It’s also necessary.) I’d also look into some light therapy (hey, I grew up in SoCal) so you can talk over both the infertility stuff and the family stuff and so forth.
Maybe you’ll stay with the guy. Maybe you won’t—and that’s not the end of the world. I’ve seen plenty of breakups, after longer than three or four years, that ended with all parties doing just fine. Either way, you’ll come out of this with a good idea of what you want and why, and that can only be a good thing.
*This is not necessarily true; people grow and change a lot during marriage; try telling that to your evil lizard brain.
cleo said on 08.29.11 at 09:37 PM • [link]
well said Rose Fox
Aldona said on 08.29.11 at 09:39 PM • [link]
Ultimatums are never a good idea - either for the giver of the ultimatum or the receiver of the ultimatum - in a marriage or family relationship or with friends.
And can you imagine where this can lead? Marry me, or else. Lose 20 pounds, or else. Get a better job, or else. Be blonder, or else.
Why on earth would anyone want to go through life living with this type of anxiety - let alone the suspicions that come along with “or else” - such as, “does he/she really love me, or did he/she marry me because I made him/her do it?”
My husband’s understanding of romance and mine are different - a lot different. But we compromise, sometimes, and sometimes, surprise one another, and sometimes it’s more about me, and sometimes it’s more about him, but most of the time that I’m grateful that I found someone who actually does love me for better or for worse, for richer or poorer, in good health and bad. Because let me tell you, there are days when I’m not that easy to live with, even if those days are few and far between.
We had been married ten years when my husband decided to buy me an engagement ring. Was I hurt when he didn’t give me a ring when we decided to marry? Absolutely. For about 60 seconds. He didn’t have the money, and I wanted him more than the ring or big wedding. He is the person I am most honest with in my entire life, and the person who is most honest with me.
Do we fight? Yep. We have daily disagreements or differences of opinion about almost everything. When his cousin was getting divorced for the third time, before the age of 35 - yes, 3 wives, 2 children, and not yet 35!!! - I was worried and spoke to my husband about the fact that we have different opinions about a lot of stuff on an almost daily basis.
His response: that’s the reason why we’ll never get divorced. It’s not like people who don’t talk and who keep secrets. Those are the people who get divorced. We know everything about each other.
And I couldn’t have children either. And it does change your lfie and your relationship. Because when your social circle is having kids, and you’re not, well, there are only so many children’s birthday parties or baptisms or school events that you can attend, and you feel left out as a couple. But we talked about it, a lot, and we made a new path for ourselves. Sure, there was heartbreak, for both of us, but we’ve been married for twenty years, and for that I am truly grateful.
Happiness is important. I would urge you to really think and examine your heart and mind and soul for your personal definition of happiness. A lot of things that we think are important when we are twenty or thirty, become less important as we age.
jody said on 08.29.11 at 09:51 PM • [link]
Marriage exists as an institution because life is hard and uncertain and sometimes that piece of paper is the only thing that holds you together until things get better. Ask couples who’ve been married a really long time and they all tell you sometimes things can get really, really rocky.
Moonlight and romance, hearts and flowers and choirs of angels singing in the background have their place in life. It’s before the marriage. Occasionally you get them later too, but mostly it’s before and it’s the attraction and love and relationship that have been established before the wedding that get you through the rough spots later.
The major issues Knuckles and BF are having now don’t bode well for down the road. Counseling could help, but I agree with whoever said the breach of trust caused by the BF’s freakout might not be healable. Enough things happen after you’re married that cause pain and resentment to go into a marriage wondering if the whole relationship is based on a lie.
There’s a big difference in making sacrifices and compromises based on mutual commitment and common goals, and having the rug pulled out from under you. You don’t reasonably expect to get a complete in every detail HEA, but you shouldn’t have to be in agony over whether he’ll still be there when you get home, either.
I hope things turn out for Ms. Knuckles.
Lara Amber said on 08.29.11 at 10:58 PM • [link]
Aldona said on…
08.29.11 at 11:39 AM
Ultimatums are never a good idea - either for the giver of the ultimatum or the receiver of the ultimatum - in a marriage or family relationship or with friends.
And can you imagine where this can lead? Marry me, or else. Lose 20 pounds, or else. Get a better job, or else. Be blonder, or else.
I disagree. Sometimes you HAVE to put your foot down and say “no, this is the line in the sand.” My ultimatum wasn’t “marry me or else” it was “you have until X date to decide whether or not you want to marry me, if the answer is no, I’m moving on”. The deadline gave him time to think about it. He knew about the deadline so there was no hidden ticking clock (if he doesn’t ask by Christmas, I’m out of here, but I won’t tell him that). There is no slippery slope of controlling threats involved.
Batty Tabby said on 08.29.11 at 11:08 PM • [link]
I agree with Lara Amber, there is a place for ultimatums. But to avoid the danger of what the previous poster said “Lose 20 pounds or else…), an ultimatum should be focused on you and your needs, not how he needs to change. This leaves some room for compromise, still.
For example, say, “I need the security marriage will give me in knowing if something terrible happened to you I could be there for you—or if something happened to me, the person I trust most in the world and who knows me best will be making the decisions.” Perhaps a well-written living will could do the same in all 50 states and internationally, but next-of-kin have much less access problems when it comes to the most difficult times. And who wants to wait till one of those times comes to find out the pencil-written pledge wasn’t enough?
The ultimatum is really within yourself and if you will go through with it given particular circumstances required. All you can do is let him know what you need and decide whether he’s going to pull through with that. Telling him about your needs is a fair warning.
Patti said on 08.29.11 at 11:27 PM • [link]
My husband and a few of his male friends from his early twenties always joke about being members of the “chicken wing half nelson club”, because they had to have their arms twisted a bit to commit to marriage :-) In my case, we were dating less than a year and a half when I wanted to get engaged or at least know that was where we were heading. My then, boyfriend was definitely a bit freaked out by that. We took a 5 day break to think about things. I was devastated he wasn’t sure, because I was sure he was the one. After those five days he realized he did not want to lose me and we were married six months later. We have been happily married for over 26 years and have three children. Our oldest son is 23 and has autism. I can not imagine any one else being as wonderful a feather and as sweet a husband. He is not romantic in a romance novel kind of way at all, but a prince of a person none the less! The other above mentioned couples are all happily married also and have been together as many years as we have. In my husbands case, he is a worrier and his reluctance stemmed form that, not us.
Chelsea said on 08.30.11 at 12:25 AM • [link]
Everyone has already given such good advice, I don’t feel that I can add much, except to say I’VE BEEN THERE. Sort of. What happened to me was, after four years of dating and general happiness and glowing “I love you"s I was ready for engagement and eventual marriage. I was cool with taking things slow, but I knew what I wanted. When I brought it up in casual conversation, there was dead silence. Not panic or rejection, just a seizure of communication. I worried that I’d ruined the romance by asking for what I wanted. I worried that he wasn’t on the same level as me emotionally. I worried that he was looking to keep an escape hatch by not proposing. I worried, and worried, and made myself sick over it by keeping that worry to myself and not trying to open the lines of communication again.
Six months later, after much agony on my part and a lot of purposeful steering around the marriage topic, he proposed. He basically said “I’m an idiot for not realizing you would want this. I’m an idiot for not doing this sooner. ” It turns out he was just in shock that I wanted a formal, legal union. But after some thought, he decided he wanted that too.
The tagline of this is COMMUNICATE. Always. Don’t keep all your guilt and worry bottled up. If you two are meant to stay together, communication will help that to happen. And if not, at least you’ll know where you stand.
sweetsiouxsie said on 08.30.11 at 02:20 AM • [link]
Lots of great comments tonight!
I’ve been married for 39 years and I am in love with my guy. It was not always easy, but the ups and downs were worth the trip.
Since this is about what I learned about love from romance novels, I refer to the last page of Elizabeth Hoyt’s classic tale The Serpent Prince:
“You’ve changed the ending!” Simon sounded outraged.
Well, she didn’t care.“Yes, it’s much better now that Angelica marries the Serpent Prince instead. I never did like that Rutherford.”
But, Angel,” he protested. “She’d chopped off his head. I don’t see how he could recover from that.”
“Silly.” She pulled his face down to hers. “Don’t you know true love heals all?”
So, I have always remembered that where there is love, all things are possible.
Anon said on 08.30.11 at 02:21 AM • [link]
I don’t know if I believe in ultimatums because that term makes it should like you wouldn’t actually leave and are just playing a game to get your way. HOWEVER, I am a big believe in looking at your options and figuring out the ones which would work best for you.
I think you need to have a clear, rational conversation with your partner. Where do you both see yourselves in five years time? What does marriage look like to you? Do you want to explore other options for children or will you fill your lives with other activities?
Ultimately you need to understand what your options are. Basically I see three:
1. You stay with him and understand that yes he hurt your feelings but that he’s committed to your relationship.
2. You separate, live separately and date each other for a while. Give it a time frame - if you both don’t have some clarity after six months then break up.
3. Leave. If you believe that what has happened truly means that you can’t be with this person or that your visions for the future are completely incompatible then sometimes you need to make the hard decision.
There are so many reasons he may have said what he said. It might be that he has some long harboured dream that he thinks marriage will put an end to (travel or a university degree for instance) that he hasn’t been game enough to put into words. He may not have truly understood how hurt you were by his reaction and in his own little way be trying to show you how committed he is by talking about the wedding.
And yes, I’ve made that third decision. I was in a relationship where the chemistry was amazing, we were fantastic together and loved each other absolutely but our idea of where we would be in the future and what we needed from a long term relationship was completely different. We had the talk and decided to break up. He’s married now and extremely happy and I’m pursuing my dreams and am extremely happy. I don’t regret our time together and it certainly taught me what I want in both a relationship and my life.
FairyKat said on 08.30.11 at 04:14 AM • [link]
Just chipping in with my two bits of support! One if the things we know from Romance Novels is that it’s the girls’ job to support you.
Your dreams may not come true in quite the way you hoped (everything is much easier and quicker in my dreams, certainly!) but they won’t come true at all if you don’t continue to believe in them and in yourself, and therefore work towards them. Your dreams sound positive and achievable, and there has been so much good advice! Good luck!
Alpha Lyra said on 08.30.11 at 07:42 AM • [link]
I think SB Sarah nailed this one—the writer needs to sit down with him and talk this out. His reaction could mean anything from “I’m head over heels in love but I have issues about marriage” to “I’m just staying in this relationship until something better comes along.” None of us, just reading this letter, can know the reason for his freaking out when the topic of marriage was broached, and that reason is critically important.
If he refuses to discuss the subject, however, I personally would walk.
delphia2000 said on 08.30.11 at 08:12 AM • [link]
Yes, you can live together for years and then decide to marry and have a quiet little union. We lived together for 6 years when I said to him, “It’s blue.” He said, “when you do want to get married?” We were married in our hearts years before we signed the paper. The paper was never important to me. It was only important to provide legal protection for our son. It’s 26+ years now and we are happier than ever. And I really wish that kid would move out so we can play naked chase me around the house again.
I think the idea of professional help is a good one. Sometimes it takes a trained third party to help you find out what you both really want.
AgTigress said on 08.30.11 at 10:16 AM • [link]
My own experience, too, Delphia. My husband and I have been together since 1971, but we did not actually marry till 2003, when we decided that the many looming problems of old age would be slightly mitigated by the legal provisions of marriage (easier to make a standard type of will, easier dealing with health professionals etc. when one is a legal spouse rather than a co-habiting partner).
It is those legal provisions, making a married couple ‘family’, that so many gay couples have sought, (and happily have now found, in our country and in at least some US states), rather than ‘romance’. We make the relationship bonds ourselves, and the ‘piece of paper’ is no more than a declaration or affirmation of it for the rest of society. If there are religious sensibilities involved, of course that makes a big difference, because the opinion of a deity must be taken into account above all else. For the rest of us, it is really a matter of cultural/societal norms.
Jen said on 08.30.11 at 04:26 PM • [link]
Here’s what I don’t like about ultimatums: they’re asking for a behavior from someone else. You say to someone else, “You need to do this/stop doing this, or (insert consequence here).” I think everything works better when you own your own behavior and don’t predicate it on someone else’s. Act, don’t react.
That said, there’s something to be said for making your expectations and needs clear, which an ultimatum *can* do to some extent. All too often, though, an ultimatum takes the place of an actual, honest conversation. (How many times does this happen in a romance novel? One character demands something stupid of another without explaining what it is he/she truly needs from the situation. And the results are typically ridiculous and eye-rolling.)
Sort out your needs and your hurts for yourself. Then have the conversation. Maybe it’s time to leave, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Maybe you’ll stay, and you’ll be the stronger for it.
Verification text is nuclear95, which seems fair. Ultimatum = nuclear option.
clew said on 08.30.11 at 08:25 PM • [link]
What I get out of this is that Knuckle actually proposed to her guy, just not very romantically and trying to keep an out. It seems a bit, mmm, rigid and double-standards to expect him to do the big fancy pretending-to-be-a-Disney prince. (Though clearly lots of couples are happy with this as a negotiation in several stages, with the staged proposal sealing a done deal.) I’d phrase the ultimatum differently: make a real proposal. Be just as careful to make a wonderful setting as a guy is supposed to, be just as terrified, put your heart right on the line… and if he is sensible of the honor but can’t see his way to it, you’ll probably know if you need to leave.
Other than that, I mostly agree with Isabel C. and Rose Fox. I’ve had a wonderful committed relationship since 1995, we’re not married, we’re extremely egalitarian—which is important to both of us, and includes letting one of us go become an Argentinian spy as long as the other can come (metaphorically!). It’s incredibly romantic, for us.
Anna Rob. said on 08.31.11 at 12:46 AM • [link]
Knuckles, reading your letter I hurt for you. Like many persons on this thread, I can empathize with you, having been in a similar predicament in my last relationship. While I am now single, I feel pretty happy and confident that I made the right decision for me. I realized after breaking up with my BF that a really good guy friend (and an all round fantastic guy), had been interested in me the whole time I was agonizing over my BF (as I was otherwise occupied, he moved on and is now engaged to someone else). So here’s my two cents for you:-
- First of all, it is very important to know what are the things that you need to be happy in your relationship and in your life. If you do need to be married, then there’s nothing wrong with wanting or needing that commitment. Life is short, and you have to please yourself. If you are not content or happy with where you currently are, then you have to decide what will get you there, and take the necessary steps to achieve it.
- It is hard to be content with past hurts continuously at the back of your mind. So, I I too echo the sentiment that an honest talk is needed. Explain how hurt and betrayed you felt; find out what the BF’s goals are for the future of your relationship, and see whether those are compatible with yours. I don’t know if your BF just had a moment where he plain lost his mind. His sporadic comments about marriage now may be his way of hinting that he really does see a future with you. Alternately, he may have issues with marriage, or even making a commitment to you. If that is the case, you owe it to yourself to know sooner rather than later, and move on.
- Finally, (you might not believe now but) know that whatever happens, things will be OK. When you waste time with the wrong person, you don’t notice when other potential partners come along. Loving someone and wanting him to commit isn’t enough; he has to want it too. Don’t force it, thinking that this is the only guy in the world for you. Don’t limit yourself or stay with someone who can’t make you happy because of fear that you won’t find someone else who’ll treat you well. It only hurts you and your self esteem in the long run. The good guys may be rare, yes, but they are out there, and they’re looking for you too :D
Amber said on 08.31.11 at 04:58 AM • [link]
Maybe I can speak from the other side of the equation.
My love proposed, and I agreed… and then I put him off for three years. I delayed the wedding by a year, and another year, always citing perfectly reasonable excuses that he agreed with, but I saw the hurt it caused. He tried to hide it but one of the things we share is a complete inability to hide our emotions.
That hurt eventually made me throw logic and calculation to the wind and finally actually make plans for the wedding. Because part of love is the desire to ease pain, and I had that ability and it was only my own complicated, unspoken fears getting in the way. And when I weighed those against my hope for the future and his heartbroken expression, I realized how stupid they were.
Maybe he just doesn’t realize how much this hurts you. And maybe seeing that hurt is what it will take, not to blackmail him, but to snap his head on straight. After this long, blackmailing is not even something you should be thinking about. You know him better than that. You know, more than anyone else, that he’s not going to be blackmailed by you, because if it was like that, you wouldn’t love him as much as you do.
Sharon said on 08.31.11 at 03:16 PM • [link]
Dear Abby would tell you to move on. I think that’s good advice.
Aly said on 08.31.11 at 08:27 PM • [link]
I can totally relate. I was in the same situation once…
To me, marriage was a nice plus but not a necessary thing to the relationship. But when I made the VERY INNOCENT question to the BF and said “When you’re older, do you see yourself getting married to someone?”... he totally flipped. He said with absolute certainty “No, I will never ever get married to anyone.”—which is weird considering his parents have the most wonderful and solid marriage I’ve ever seen.
Anyways… I trusted that we could be happy without a piece of paper. He was a wonderful, reliable, faithful and supportive partner.
And then one day he broke up with me. Out of the blue. After dinner with his parents. He disappeared from my life entirely.
What I’ve learned from the experience is that any man who truly loves you and wants to share a future with you, won’t shy away from the idea of marriage. He might not want it, but he will be willing to do it if he knows you really want to, just to make you happy.
rudi_bee said on 09.01.11 at 07:28 AM • [link]
@kkw
Best advice ever. Well that and figure out what you need and then sit down and talk it out with him. Don’t be afraid of where your story is at. I mean, who knows this might just be your prologue/backstory with much romance and a HEA on the way.
I sincerely hope that everything works out for you Knuckles.
Demi said on 09.01.11 at 10:21 PM • [link]
Knuckles, don’t know if you’re still reading the many thoughtful comments here (WOW, so much good advice!)
If you’d like a man’s perspective, this guy’s got the right idea imo (and I think he’d generally agree with the bitchery, from what I can tell):
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/how-long-should-i-wait-for-a-real-commitment/
Amanda said on 09.02.11 at 04:56 AM • [link]
A dear friend had a similar response from her long-term boyfriend when she brought up marriage.
He rejected marriage as an institution. He didn’t think they needed a ring and marriage license to love each other. Blah blah blah fishcakes. Marriage was for suckers…
Eventually he met someone else and married HER within a few months. What he meant when he said he didn’t believe in marriage was that he didn’t want to marry my friend.
Not always the case, but it’s worth considering and asking some questions when you have a good talk with your boyfriend.
Rabbit Hutches said on 09.02.11 at 05:00 PM • [link]
Well, it is indeed a total waste for you to spend those whole three years with a person who does not even plan on settling down. Because at that span of time that you are together he should have felt that you are already the one. Anyways you should be hung up with that boyfriend of yours who does not have plans with you in the future. On my case, that is the complete opposite. I am currently 22 years old and I have my boyfriend of 5 years now and he constantly talks about marriage and when I will be prepared to be married with him. Well, marriage is a tough call, since you would be with that person for the rest of your life since we don’t have divorce here in our country.
Car Tent said on 09.19.11 at 07:17 PM • [link]
You should find a better person who is looking to spend his lifetime with you. You should not spend your time wasting with a person who does not plan his future with you.
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