Smart Bitches, Trashy Books

Candy - how is this even possible? Could you have perhaps liked the prose and the characters a bit more than you state in your review, but don’t want to admit it out loud?  You had to have liked them somewhat to have liked the book as

much as you did.

I typically laugh my arse off at your reviews and posts, but this one seems a bit hyperbolic for something you finished in two days.

I am still under the rock.  But I have purchased a ticket out and plan on reading it after the holidays.

I am still under the rock.  But I have purchased a ticket out and plan on reading it after the holidays.

God help me, but the BDB setup reminds me of “Metalocalypse”.  Starring Wrath as Nathan Explosion and Zsadist as Pickles the Drummer.

Because that is what giant, kill-happy white dudes dressed in leather should be listening to, you know.  Metal.  Not rap.  METAL!  DAMMIT!!

I read Dark Lover.  Found it underwhelming.  Was not surprised and in fact secretly pleased to hear the rest of it was as absurd as it promised to be.

I’m so over the ‘We’re so bad, baby’ school of vampire romances.  I want a vampire who talks like a normal person (don’t call her baby, she’s a grown woman, and if you think she really is an infant then, dude.  Getitng the horn over her is NOT appropriate) and dresses like one too, not like, say, a gimp.

As for the whole ‘born a king’ thing—Candy, have you read Terry Pratchett’s City Watch books?  Featuring Constable (later Corporal and Captain) Carrot, who has this mega sword, and this crown-shaped birthmark and this uncanny ability to lead people and make them happy…and who has a habit of quietly destroying any evidence that says he’s the Secret King of Ankh-Morpork, because really, he just wants to be a copper.

Pratchett has a lovely thought somewhere about people having a king-shaped space in their heads.

Sadly, however brilliant Ward is, I could never get past the names.

nothing can prevent a Monster Cock from uniting with a Magic Hoo Hoo

“What are you laughing at, Mommy?”

“Um, nothing sweetheart.  Go play.”

Re: picturing the Scribe Virgin.  In my head she always looks like the Mother Superior of the Bene Gesserit in Dune.  Remember the box MS had that could sense the true nature of who-so-ever stuck their hand in it and kill them in an instant?  I picture the glowing hand of the SB as being the same deal.  In fact, there are many parallels between the clothing, demeanor and long range breeding plans of the Bene Gesserit MS and the SB.

Ah, if you want an entirely dihfferent vampire, Robin McKinley’s book Sunshine, which has been mentioned here before, is wonderful.

Laughed like a drain at your rehviews of JR Ward’s Wohrk.  Fabulous!

Oh man, this review made me laugh so hard because dude, it’s just so true. Everything you said is exactly how I felt about this series. I’m waiting for the last book in which it turns out The Brotherhood and The Lessers are all the just the same dude (John, much) and it’s all happening in his head. Like Sally Field in “Sybil”.

Mini-Mart Robbery Gone Bad?

This takes me straight to that fantastic chase scene featuring Huggies and dogs from Raising Arizona (not to mention the line my family loves to say at random: “Son, you have panties on your head”).

Now I’m wondering how a mash up of a country song and a “hard core” rap song would work out.  H.I. and Wrath together in one musing - I must say I never saw that coming.

autonomous democratic collectives based on consensus and merit just aren’t sexy

I don’t think Jules Jones would agree.

I read until they have magical, random sex for the first time and put it down - totally unimpressed.  I’m probably missing some key female hormone, but this book just didn’t grab me at all.

Fiveandfour, if you want to hear a country music/rap smash up may I suggest the ever fabulous Asylum Street Spankers.  Whammo did a great song called Hick Hop.  I hope this link works.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhJx1gpl0kM

I have to say that I too found these books to be much like crack.  The whole time I was a little chagrined because I knew in my hind brain that they just weren’t that well written.  The main thing that bugged me, though, and man it really bugged me the whole time, was the appropriation of hip hop culture and the gangster ethos by this rich, rich, super-empowered seemingly white guys.  Candy hit the nail on the head; they are definitely trying to hard.  But worse in my mind, rap and the whole gangster ethos are about the disenfranchised and the poor getting theirs, moving up economically etc etc.  And these guys, yeah, it doesn’t seem to me that they ever had to worry too much about food stamps. 

Of course, when I would get too worked up over this particular cultural appropriation, I would just remind myself of all the very white frat boys at UT Austin who just adored that rap music.  I mean, come on, yo, the man had totally been holding them down.  *sigh*

I’m with those who just couldn’t get into these books, and I tried, I tried!

and I’m not against badly written un-PC word-crack either, because I’m doing a re-read of the Lensman series by E. E. Smith, and loving/hating every minute of it.

Every single criicism stated in Candy’s review and in every comment in this thread is absolutely 100% correct. And I STILL love those fucking books like a fat kid loves cake!  It’s a sickness, I tell ya!

Put me down as one who hasn’t read it and isn’t particularly interested.  I think they lost me at the extra “h” thing.  Nothing I’ve read since leads me to want to invest my time and energy.

As an aside, I just finished reading Shelter by Susan Palwick.*  600 pages of awesomeness set in a near future San Francisco. When I closed the book my reaction was, “Wow.  My brain needed that.”  Lately I’m reading too much crap and not enough mind stretching fiction, so I appreciate the SBs taking one for the team and doing the reviews.  And as usual, Cand(h)y’s review was its own form of awesome.

*(Not a romance, but if you want one of her books with a wonderful romance in it, read The Necessary Beggar.

Eggs, I always wanted to be Bene Gesserit. Made of awesome. Except for Jessica, who was kinda a whiner.

I am honest enough to admit that my funky spelling of the word “criticism” was actually the result of my poor typing skills and not some attempt at BDB type spelling.  The fact that I only typed half of myscreen name is due to the fact that it is exam week and I am sort of brain dead.

spamfoiler- pay13 I would pay much more than that for a decent night of sleep!

I pretty much agree with almost all of Candy’s review. Thank you for posting this! I feel like I’m not crazy for thinking the same things.

The “pure bloodline” trope is really creepy in this and other fiction. It’s why I so dislike the Kushiel series: all that strange prejudice and, well, racism. It was gross.

Why does so much Fantasy fiction focus on people becoming great because they’re Chosen, or Destined, or their blood is so very pure? David Brin wrote a great article about this oddness at Salon.com.

I also never once imagined the male characters as anything other than white European with Transylvanian roots—and now I’m wondering how other people saw differently—is it because of the language used? The slang just struck me as suburban white kids trying to be cool. Sad.

Again, thanks for posting, Candy. Nice to hear many of my problems with the book stated by someone outside of my crazy little brain.

Another thing about this series—when you hear the term deux ex machina, in these books, the improbably HEA really *does* come from their god(dess).  In two of them, she directly intervenes to pull the HEA out of thin air—once saving the heroine from certain death, the other time intervening to turn the dead heroine into a ghost. 

I prefer stories where the HEA doesn’t come from outside, yanno?  And you’re right—the Scribe Virgin creeps me out like damn, too.

I felt as uncomfortable with this book as you did, and I think it’s because Ward doesn’t show the reader that she realizes she’s writing dystopian fiction.

It’s not easy to write a story set in a dystopian society. The writer has to make the protagonist appealing enough so that the reader sympathizes with her while at the same time explaining how a sympathetic character can be found in a completely unsympathetic society. Orwell did this by creating a society whose members are either cowed into conformity or re-educated if they rebel; Zamyatin had his protagonist D-503 rebel when the combination of love, higher mathematics (!!), and insanity leads him to doubt the One State. Ward, on the other hand, uses only love to humanize her characters, but it isn’t enough. Hitler was still Hitler despite his love for Eva Braun.

Ward also seems to echo Lovecraft in her unsympathetic dismissal of the subhumans as Satan-worshipping inferiors. This is even more worrisome since Lovecraft was an unrepentant, foul racist who saw the English as the epitome of humanity and blacks as barely human if at that, and whose portrayal of racial minorities is strongly paralleled by Ward’s.

And that should have been “paralleled by Ward’s treatment of the subhumans.”

ARGH

Am I the only one that thought Wrath was a big old douche?  If he cares so much about his brothers then why did it take Darius’ death to get him to do anything about Beth? 
And really, I can’t believe that Marissa didn’t develop an eating disorder or start cutting herself after spending centuries being treated like a big old bag of blood by the dude who’s supposed to be her mate.  They were mated for, what, a couple hundred years and they never had a conversation about their relationship? 
I couldn’t tell the other brothers apart.  There was the good looking one, the really good looking one, the other good looking one, and the scary guy.  Whenever there was a crowd scene I couldn’t keep them straight.  (And Ward barely manages to do that herself.  Homosayswhat?)
My reaction after reading this was “meh.”
I skipped the second and read the third, which I kinda dug because I do like me some tortured, anghsty heros.  Then I read the second and was underwhelmed again.  Alot of people disliked the 4th book but not me.  It’s my favorite after the third.  The 5th was a major disappointment.  Too much deus ex machina for this gal.  Ward needs to pull this series together or I will give up altogether after the 8th or 9th book.  I mean it.  She has four more books to win me over or she’ll be crying all the way to the bank.

I will never get over the BDB as Metalocalypse comment. It is so very true.

:D LOL, I love the BDB books, but it is true that most of the brodas do talk like wannabees, I always kept picturing them as deformed hulking Vanilla Ice/Justin Timberlake look-alikes (MWAHAHA) that stepped out of “Alpha Dawg” or “Phast and the Phurious”  ;D.  Kudos to Ward for the new take on the vampire language (Gangsta Vamp).  Ward just needs to put the fizzle with the pale, doormatty sistas (Magical Hoo-hoos) or I’m like Outie, Phaster than Speedie Gonzales.

Andrew Vachss, who writes genuinely gritty books about genuinely tough people, is constantly poking gentle fun at characters like the BDB guys with their overt “hard” looks. Basically on the (I think correct) theory that if you’re really tough, you know it, and you go out of your way not to attract attention.

That said, I enjoyed Dark Lover more than I thought I would. I didn’t love it, and I didn’t go immediately hunting down the next book in the series, but I thought it was okay. I liked Butch the best. I kept reading for him. :-)

Oh, and if the Scribe Virgin can give Wrath sight for a minute as a gift, why can’t she just give it back to him for good?

Well, I am one of the proverbial under-rock dwellers who had never encountered these books…and now I really plan to not; I can deal with racist pureblood plotlines and bad hiphop speak, but I cannot handle a vampire with MY NAME ON IT having rampant sex with a Monster Cock….

I can’t handle heroines with my name, it feels too much like a madlib.

Did anybody catch the word phearsome? I think it appeared in the 3rd book. It means worthy of entering a female. I feel oddly compelled to use it at inappropriate times.

I have to say I really didn’t get the racial ambiguity that Sarah saw. So, I’m really glad other people felt the same way. I always thought Ward saying “They’re their own race” was her excuse for not writing an characters who weren’t white. Have there even been any minor characters who aren’t white?

Charlene, I’m seeing the shades of Lovecraft too. However, you forgot to mention that he was also a nazi sympathizer.

He was a huge sympathizer of the racial separation and anti-Semitism that the Nazis envisioned, yes, but he wasn’t a fan of the violence, publicly speaking out about it. He saw the Nazis’ violence as signs that the Germans weren’t as ‘advanced’ as the English.

He really was a piece of work.

Why does so much Fantasy fiction focus on people becoming great because they’re Chosen, or Destined, or their blood is so very pure?

Because it’s so much easier to fantasize that you are Chosen/Destined/Pure without knowing it than it is to fantasize about working really hard at magic or swordplay for years and years, until you’re an expert?

Did anybody catch the word phearsome? I think it appeared in the 3rd book. It means worthy of entering a female. I feel oddly compelled to use it at inappropriate times.

Oh God yes!  I laughed until it hurt over that.  You know that double fudge chocolate creme pie?  That is PHEARSOME.  I’m gonna let it enter my mouth right now.

That would have been my review exactly! Kept skipping through it to find out what happened, but can’t find another good thing to say (and plenty of bad!).

Sunshine (McKinley) or Twilight (Meyers) are more my kind of suitably anaemic European vampire thing.

The space under that rock is getting crowded.  Count me amongst that crowd.  I’d heard of the books but was never interested enough to give them a try.  After hearing the silly hero names and various other nuttiness involved with this series, I think I’ll just stay here under the rock.

You know that double fudge chocolate creme pie?  That is PHEARSOME.  I’m gonna let it enter my mouth right now.

Oh, shit, Amy. Thanks for making me laugh!

The h’s really bothered me too. Really. Especially when they were totally unnecessary (as if some of them weren’t.) Like the way ahvenge was defined in the glossary. Yeah, JR, it means the same thing in my world, even without the H. But thahnks.

I think I’ll add a glossary like that to my books. Just random words everyone should know.

make: to create or cause to happen
kiss: to press your mouth to something, usually in an affectionate way, unless it’s a romance novel, in which case it may be angry or punishing.
horse: a domesticated animal often used as transportation

Why does so much Fantasy fiction focus on people becoming great because they’re Chosen, or Destined, or their blood is so very pure?

Speaking in general terms (and ignoring the “pure blood” piece of it because that’s a thesis all in itself) it’s part of the classic definition of the hero that the person setting off to slay the dragon is “chosen”.  Someone has to do it, so there must be something that sets the hero apart and makes that person right for the job.  I think perhaps a part of it - particularly when the person is “chosen” but never knew it until the moment at hand - is that this is supposed to help the audience understand just how significant this event is, just how long the odds are of success.  It helps put the audience in the shoes of this seemingly average person, untrained and unknowing, as he takes himself out of his usual life and heads off alone - with perhaps a charm, a weapon, and a few words of wisdom - into the great unknown.

And jocelynnesimone, I…I’m kinda’ speechless about the video.  I laughed.  I cried.  I’m afraid I’m going to have that “heigh ho Silver” chorus running through my mind all day.

I did read the first book and while I found myself skimming in parts, I did enjoy it.

That said - I dislike any book where the author deliberately changes common spellings. It really turned me off to reading anymore.

JC

P.S. my verification term is human65 - how is THAT for a subliminal message?

Just a data point: Eminem says “I’m outie” in the rap contest at the end of 8 Mile:

From the IMDb:
“Fuck a beat, I’ll go A Capella. Fuck a Papa Doc, fuck a clock, fuck a trailer, fuck everybody. Fuck y’all if you doubt me. I’m a piece of fuckin’ white trash, I say it proudly. And fuck this battle, I don’t want to win, I’m outtie. Here, tell these people something they don’t know about me.”

Maybe he was being ironic? Or maybe this really is something that ganstas say?

The one single thing that bothers me the most about the writing is when a 5’9” twenty something male is described—over and over and over, ad nauseam—as having a little body.

Hello, full grown woman here, who’s 5’2” on a good day, and not little in any way, form or manner, dammit!

But the BDB books are crahck f’r sure.

“...nothing can prevent a Monster Cock from uniting with a Magic Hoo Hoo. It’s like when an irresistible force meets an immovable object, except with more improbable orgasms and body fluids.”

**dies**

Oh man, I missed the “phearsome” thing in book three. Damn.

verify word: length24. Now that’s a Monster Cock. Ouch!

I’m another one who’s been under that rock, and I think I won’t bother to read these books.

I thought J.R. Ward was a pen name for Nora Roberts.  Is that right?  If so, what’s she doing writing this stuff?

Not that I want to be too critical, since I can’t write fiction.  And she is a best-selling, award winning author, so what do I know?  I’ve been unemployed for a year and a half.

Nope, Nora is J.D. Robb. Close, though! *g*

“the giant homoerotic rapper wannabe clusterfuck tastiness that is the Black Dagger Brotherhood.”

So it wasn’t just my gutter mind imagining huge gay (not to mention white middle-class hard-ass wannabe) fuckfests taking place offscene in the BDB manor two years ago.  And that was even before I started reading erotica…

God, Candy - I love you so much.  Please can I be your bitch?  Meow.

It’s why I so dislike the Kushiel series: all that strange prejudice and, well, racism.

A friend described the overall attitude of the D’Angeline protagonists as “I’m descended from angels and YOU AREN’T. Nyah!”

“Nope, Nora is J.D. Robb. Close, though! *g*”

Thanks for the correction, Victoria. I was really having trouble believing that Nora R. would write stuff like this, even under another name.

The whole we’re-descended-from-angels-and-so-we-r0xx0rs thing from the first trilogy of Kushiel books is why I prefer the second triology.  The protagonist himself is often at odds with this attitude and chafes against it in his own life and choices.  I think it’s nice when an author realizes there is an underlying attitude among character or the culture that s/he has developed and takes a chance at reevaluating it through a new characters perspective, etc etc. 

(My apologies if my grammar is ridiculously dense. I just got out of a 2 hour of Turkish class, and it clearly affected my syntax.)

I had to put down the first book because of the awful slang and weak decriptions. I think I got to page 20 and gave up. I dont get the addiction. Can it still be called crack if some people dont get addicted after taking a hit?

And E, Eminem is not a gangsta (  in spite of what he would have you believe about how hard he is and being from the streets, for real.)

Hands off my crack, biotch.

Actually, this is the one that I liked the least. I just sent my sister a box of porn, I mean BOOKS, for Christmas (hmmm…that just seems so wrong, but whatever) and on the card I wrote,“Get through this one, then read the others.”

The space under that rock is getting crowded.

Indeed.  I think it’s time we all crawled out for a bit…not to read these books but to, um, find bathrooms.

He was a huge sympathizer of the racial separation and anti-Semitism that the Nazis envisioned, yes, but he wasn’t a fan of the violence, publicly speaking out about it. He saw the Nazis’ violence as signs that the Germans weren’t as ‘advanced’ as the English.

Interestingly enough, Lovecraft’s wife was Jewish.

Oh COME ON….. these aren’t comments on a review.  This thread looks like a group that sees a way to beat up on a writer while the followers jump on top of the pile and cackle with glee…

Ward didn’t start a satanic cult, she built a world and if it’s not your cup of tea, fine, do what so many of the people on this thread did… don’t read it. Of course, that should mean that you don’t get to have your two cents worth, but what the hell, kicking some author’s ideas and words to the ground is a lot easier then reading a book…. oh yeah, I forgot, someone else read it for you.

Geeze, the woman had an idea, wrote it, got it published it and it sold by the tens of thousands….

This is one of the things that happens when people talk about a book that they haven’t read… they make it not about the writing but about the writer. More to the point, you don’t just say, wow, great writing, good story or wow, bad writing, bad story… no, it’s all about some pseudo-intellectual bullshit that has little or nothing to do with the reading of this book.

That’s why Candy’s review doesn’t jibe, it’s almost as though she had to say some, what she thought, funny things about a book she not only liked, but was embarassed about reading. If you want to review and intellectualize about Freakonomics, have at it, but this is popular fiction folks, just a few hours of getting away from the every day stuff.

Who gives a fuck what music the characters listen to? And Christ, who cares about Eminem or what he did or didn’t say?

God, all these comments resonate with a bitterness that makes me wonder just how smart some bitches are.

Wow.  Someone’s a really angry fangirl.  (Or fanboy—can’t forget the men, right, Teddypig?)

How many sips is it when someone invokes the title of the blog, again?  I am still kicking myself for not printing out that drinking game!

More to the point, you don’t just say, wow, great writing, good story or wow, bad writing, bad story

Man that’d make for a short review.

Who gives a fuck what music the characters listen to?

Um.  The people who read it and ask themselves why that character is listening to that song?

And now, it begins.

But it wasn’t about the review, it was about the comments following the review.

You’re probably always right, except about my being a fangirl.

And I’m 59 and I’ve not played a drinking game in 4 decades.

My point about the music was that it didn’t mean anything to me. I don’t know what’s hot or metal or rap and don’t care. It’s a book about vampires, I let my need for reality go when I picked it up.

Is this going to be another “gang bang”?
Or is my opinion not valid because it doesn’t go with the groups?

So if something is fiction then there shouldn’t be any analysis of it?

Why exactly would this be?

Is fiction somehow less deserving of intelligent dissection than lich’rtur? (Never mind that most of said literature is fiction)

Candy’s review doesn’t jibe? Pray tell, with what exactly? ‘cause this bit

Dark Lover is nothing if not compelling. It’s also, well, crap. Hooray for compelling crap. We loves us some compelling crap over here in Smart Bitch Central. The grade is essentially an average of my enjoyment (about a B-)

And the funniest thing: from what I can see, most of the commenters explained why they liked/read the book or not. Isn’t that what a thread about a book review is about?



spamword: truth62 [this software is scary shit]

zmom, just for the record? I enjoyed the book too—as did many of the bitches here, regardless of their hot buttons—and I never stopped to think about whether the music was/n’t appropriate. It didn’t raise even a tiny blip in my radar.

But it evidently bothered other readers. Should they not say so because it didn’t bother you?

Or is it a pile on (gang bang? huh?) only when it’s criticism of an aspect of the book, instead criticism on the reader(s) who didn’t adore the book uncritically?

(that’s awkward writing… sorry)

I am a darned big fan of the book and the series. I didnt even notice the issues everyone raised because when Im engrossed in a book, i try not to think too much (Books are my drug of choice and the BDB are CRACK!). Thats not to say I dont appreciate the very valid observations people raised. I thought the discussion was very interesting and thought provoking. The comments were NOT a review, they were a discussion… Not only about the BDB series but other books and pop culture too. It kinda felt like I was in the middle of my pop lit class again.

“Have brains, will think” I hate when people brand as bitches people smart enough to form their own opinion and voice it out. So can we settle down?

That being said, I think I will happily forget all your smart opinions (and ignore the little voice screaming murder in my head) when the next book comes out. I just hope its better than the last two because.

(horse69? seriously i do not need that picture in my head)

I’m intrigued by the Metalocalypse comparison.  If Wrath is Nathan Explosion, who is Toki?  And most importantly of all, who is Dr. Rockso?

Hey, I’ve read every one of the series. So do I get an opinion? As I’ve pointed out on my own blog, I don’t understand how I can love a series of books that I don’t even LIKE. They irritate the crap out of me most the time, and I still pound them down like shots! So I NEED these discussions to help me make sense of the whorld. Sorry, but I do.

And I do know that music, so it does hit a sour note in my head. Maybe you don’t understand the problem (for others) because when you were reading you could not hear the music and/or understand the signifigance of some of the (way too specific) brands of liquor and cars, etc.. JR Ward names those things for a reason, she’s trying to evoke something, and she’s evoking the wrong thing for some of us. And I’m sure she doesn’t give a good damn about that, and more power to her.

She created a series and a world that evokes STRONG reactions in people. That’s amazing and something to be admired.

Oh, dear. I read all of these too. And I lurk on her message board to find out the release dates of the next ones. Talk about “world building”... the BDB TALK on there. It’s a little nhuts…

I didn’t start reading them until the third one came out, and the third one is why I’ve kept reading them. I think I’ve read that book 8 times. The fourth is the next best and the rest are mediocre. I think she has one more re-readable book coming, but that’s not really going to make a difference in terms of me reading them all anyways. Theoretically, I know I should hate the series, but in practice they appear to fill some void for me. Which void you ask? Perhaps its the “what flavor is this magical hoo ha?” void, which is a running theme throughout. That might be the void they fill for JR Ward too, seeing as how her name on her message board is “Peaches”, which is Beth’s ummm “flavor” in Dark Lover.

HA. issue39.

It’s JR Ward’s creation, so she can have the BDB listening to whatever she wants them to: rap, metal, country (dearlovinglordgodNO), or Tuvan throat singing.  But the long hair, the leather, the angst-ridden, behold-my-muscle-bound-immortal-STURM UND DRANG-douchiness make me think of every heavy metal cliche in existence. 

Of course, these characters are hundreds of years old; some of them are old enough to have seen Mozart, Beethoven, or Debussy first hand.  As a music snob, it rankles me that they’re listening to a musical genre younger than most of us posting on this board.  One of them might have seen the premiere of Stravinsky’s “Le Sacre du Printemps” and now he’s listening to the Insane Clown Posse.  WRONG. 

P.S.- Toki Wartooth?  That’s Phury.  Rhage is absolutely Skwissgar Skwigelf.  I don’t know how the rest would fit.

Who gives a fuck what music the characters listen to?

JR Ward, obviously, and she wants us to care too which is why she mentions it so often.

Music is incredibly evocative. Think about how some songs take you instantly back to a certain place or time or emotion (yes, I realize I’ve just defined “evocative”). This is the effect writers look to create when they mention music in their books. It’s like a movie soundtrack. Imagine seeing a movie with a soundtrack that, for whatever reason, got on your nerves. It may not spoil the film entirely, but it’ll bug you. That’s what the constant mentions of rap do to a reader. You may not be very musically inclined or familiar with the music mentioned, so it may not effect you that way, but that doesn’t mean it’s not valid for it to bug other people or for them to raise the valid point that you have a group of men who were exposed to some of the most beautiful music ever created and they choose instead to listen to the same stuff fifteen-year-old kids enjoy. Heck, I think a man gets too old to be heavy into rap when he hits about 30. At least add some R&B/soul in there!

I paid 7 freaking POUNDS for Dark Lover at Forbidden Planet. That’s FOURTEEN DOLLARS, twice the cover price, and frankly, even at the cover price buying a copy gives me the right to say whatever I want about the book.

Of course, these characters are hundreds of years old; some of them are old enough to have seen Mozart, Beethoven, or Debussy first hand.  As a music snob, it rankles me that they’re listening to a musical genre younger than most of us posting on this board.

Oh, GOD. Yes, yes, YES!!!  zmom, you said yourself, you’re 59 and this music means nothing to you. These guys are hundreds of years old. What the hell did they listen to 20 years ago? And they just dropped Steely Dan for 50 cent like THAT? All of them? And what about what they listened to 100 years ago? Why isn’t one brother locked in his room listening to opera and telling those other mf’s to turn that not-even-music shit DOWN, for god’s sake? Come on, now.

Thanks for making a great point, dilene.

As we’ve said, JR has created this culture for a reason. Her fans can’t just dismiss as meaningless. It DOES have something to do with the story, or she wouldn’t have constructed it so carefully. True? *g* Don’t diss your author like that, zmom.

Charlene, thanks for clarifying. I over simplified.

I was reading Ward’s message board a while ago and someone asked if any of the brothers was going to end up with someone who isn’t white. Ward’s answer was something to the effect “I don’t know. They choose their own mates.” Which of course means no. I don’t really think that authors have an obligation to write interracial relationships, but it might help dispell the notion that your characters are a paranormal version of the aryan brotherhood.

Also, what’s up with all the women? They all fall for a vampire who has to protect them and cosset them and lock them in the house never ever to leave again, because when a woman goes out on her own bad things happen to her, Wellsie, and Bella are both examples of this. Even Beth to an extent, when she goes upstairs all by herself. The only female in the stories who’s allowed any independence is Xhex (that word looks so stupid) and she’s described as masculine.

Amelia, that is incredibly funny.

Is this going to be another “gang bang”?
Or is my opinion not valid because it doesn’t go with the groups?

This slays me.

You run in, call us pseudo-intellectual posers whose only purpose is to beat up on an author, as well as calling us stupid and bitter.  But we’re supposed to “Be Nice!”

But it wasn’t about the review, it was about the comments following the review.

But it wasn’t about your comment, it was about your attitude during the comment.

If you don’t want to get gang banged in the future, I’d be happy to rewrite your comment in a manner which would start a satisfying discussion.

I’m with you, Victoria: The BDB are the only books that I kinda pretty much ABHOR everything about (characterization, plot, pacing, continuity, etc.)—and I was still at my Local Independent Bookseller on the very day the last two books came out.

NOT ASHAMED.

That said, fascinating thread, ladies. Love the vareigation of opinion in the Bitchery.

Candy said…“I would love to read more opinions that disagree with the substance of the review, by the way…”

That’s the problem. You can’t. Everything you said is dead on. The criticisms are very fair. The only thing I would disagree with is the grade.

Admit… you hated it… but you loved it. You want more. You want to read about Zhadist. You have to know how tortured he is. You won’t be able to stop. John will start to suck you in and you’ll keep reading until there isn’t a brother left that you don’t want to know more about.

I feel you. I do. And as dead on as your review was… this book deserves at least a B. There is something sucking the readers in. Even the ones who know better. But like any good drug… once the addiction hits you can’t stop.

Would you give you heroin a C-?

Would you give you heroin a C-?

Oh, god, Stephanie, that is just wrong. *g* But I think that actually makes Candy’s point. A “B” as far as enjoyment, a “D” for effect on the autonomic nervous system.

To be fair to her review though, I don’t think she was as sucked in as some of us. I got the feeling she didn’t actually enjoy it as much as Sarah did, for example. Maybe I’m wrong?

BEGIN QUOTE You may not be very musically inclined or familiar with the music mentioned, so it may not effect you that way, but that doesn’t mean it’s not valid for it to bug other people or for them to raise the valid point that you have a group of men who were exposed to some of the most beautiful music ever created and they choose instead to listen to the same stuff fifteen-year-old kids enjoy. Heck, I think a man gets too old to be heavy into rap when he hits about 30. END QUOTE

Hmm,  I sense some serious animosity towards hip hop and rap music in this thread. Whats that all about? Yes there is some weak rap promoted on the airwaves but that does not do justice to the richness of the genre of protest music ( yes protest music) that is now a worldwide phenomenon. Maybe Ward refers to the Top 40 Clear Channel promoted kind of rap and hip hop and thats where the animosity comes from. But to say that rap/hiphop is not a genre worthy of any adoration proves the person has no familiarity with the genre. Check out this statement by Michael Ric Dyson aka the Hip Hop Intellectual at http://www.venusproject.com/ethics_in_action/Michael_Eric_Dyson.html .

That common dismissal of rap/hip hop is the same type of intellectual snobbery that allows people to say that Romance as evidenced by the tripe of Cassie Edwards is just trashy porn for barely literate masses of disillusioned fat chicks.

Hmm, I sense some serious animosity towards hip hop and rap music in this thread. Whats that all about? Yes there is some weak rap promoted on the airwaves but that does not do justice to the richness of the genre of protest music ( yes protest music) that is now a worldwide phenomenon

The problem with rap is the same as any other popular genre of music (or indeed books): most of what you hear is absolute tripe.  I’m an unashamed pop fan, but I’m also the first to admit the genre is saturated with complete bollocks.  Same goes for hip-hop or R’n'B or rock or country or anything else.  Done well, a rap song can be brilliant…but unfortunately, what most of us hear, and what forms the basis of our opinions, is rubbish.  And I’ve got no time to listen to rubbish.

Not to mention that having her characters listen to a certain kind of music is making a strong statement about those characters.  Maybe JR sincerely loves rap music, but it seems like she’s added it to her characters to lend them credibility, like your dad going to a concert and going, “I love this trendy music!”  Ain’t working.

I once read that the definition of cool is using the least amount of energy to define oneself.  The more props you use to shout your presence to the world, the less cool you are, my friend.

(spamfilter: cars71.  Do not get me started on cars.  I can’t remember the last time I read an Alpha who wasn’t driving a total penis substitute)

Sorry, Trumystique, my objection has more to do with the fact that I believe men of a certain age—and women, too, for that matter—should have other interests and tastes beyond the Top 40 (which, yes, is the music Ward writes about), especially if they’ve lived long enough to have experienced more. Still liking rap at 40? Great. Still listening to only rap, all the time, at 40? You’re stunting yourself intellectually, by limiting yourself so stringently to one thing. Don’t you even want a change of pace ever?

I just don’t think grown men should drive around with the windows down thumping bass all over the city. That’s something teenagers do, IMO. It’s not attractive to me as a grown woman.

Okay, I’m 85 pages in, and still not hooked. Do I need to keep going? I had a similar experience with Buffy at first, and of course now I’m completely in love with that whole world.

Regarding the music, I have to tell you - it’s not a good idea, no matter how much you like a particular artist or song, to include it by name in the work. The exceptions are timeless artists whose complete body of work has been around long enough to “settle” in the cultural zeitgeist; your Mozart, your Ella Fitzgerald, hell, I’ll even accept Johnny Cash. This is because, once an artist’s entire body of work has remained highly visible for a certain number of years, it has a “feel” that most people will agree on. Plus, most people are familiar with them, and most people, when you say “Ella Fitzgerald” will think, “smooth, classic, bluesy.” Even then, it’s risky, because some people may not know Ella, but it’s not as risky as, say, 50 Cent. I’m 36, and I have no flippin’ clue about 50 Cent. Might be a great artist, but I’m still listening to Ella, see. Baby, it’s cold outside.

I took a movie sound class years ago, and my professor (brilliant man, mentor of the guy who won an Oscar doing the sound for the original Star Wars trilogy) told us that, when you choose a piece of music to go under a scene, you need to choose something no one knows, or few people know, or you end up getting all the associations people have made with that piece of music over time.

In fiction, it’s the exact opposite. The only thing you have when you mention a piece of music is the idea that everyone’s associations with the music will be the same, that you can count on that to help you set the scene. Something generic, “the pulsating beat of hardcore rap played in the background,” works great. “50 Cent’s ‘In da Club’ played in the background” only has meaning to those people familiar with the music, and even then, you’re gonna have people for whom it just doesn’t work, so you run the risk of kicking everyone who doesn’t know the music out of your story - which, given the demographic for romance, is probably half - and then you’re kicking out probably another quarter who don’t like it or don’t think it fits the mood of the story or whatever. It’s just not worth it.

Music is tricky, tricky, tricky, and no matter what your opinion is on this particular author’s use of music, one thing is clear - if it’s generating this much argument, as an author, it’s territory in which you want to tread carefully.

Trumystique, you are absolutely correct: there is a lot of fantastic rap/hip hop out there.  I, for one, am a fan of the good stuff, especially the protest music, and have a huge thing of Italian and Turkish rap.  My own comments should be viewed in this light.  These characters, whoever, do not in my opinion listen to the good stuff.  They listen to the very worst of what can be found in the top forty. They never even mention old school rap.  It’s like they are in a vacuum which I think is the real problem/complain.  At least that’s my take on the comments.  It’s like for such very old creatures/beings/vhampires they have absolutely no sense of history.  I mean, if you love rap, truly love it, then you know its roots and have a sense of appreciation for it. 

Ah my two cents turned into 2 dollars.  Forgive me, music is a passion right up there with language for me. :)

Why isn’t one brother locked in his room listening to opera and telling those other mf’s to turn that not-even-music shit DOWN, for god’s sake?

For the record, I was writing that from the perspective of someone who’s listened to opera their whole lives. Which is the point. These guys could only have started listening to hard-core rap sometime in the last, oh, twenty years, if you want to be generous. That’s about 3% of their years on earth. They were all instant converts, dropping every other musical influence once they heard the magic of 50 cent? Bullshit.

I’ve got nothing against rap. I’m amazed by the art of some of the lyrics. I’ve got hip-hop cds in my car at this very moment. But my white, fifty-year-old husband does not. He listens to lots of Dylan. Just saying.

I read the review and all the comments over several sittings, so I apologize if this has already been explained and I’m just forgetting.

Is there any explanation given in the books (or by the author outside the books) for why she puts in those extra h’s?  One of my reasons for not reading these is that krieaytivh spellings are a pet peeve of mine.  But if there’s an actual reason for them perhaps I can ignore the funky spelling enough to try reading one of the books.

Maybe Ward refers to the Top 40 Clear Channel promoted kind of rap and hip hop and thats where the animosity comes from.

Yep.

Is there any explanation given in the books (or by the author outside the books) for why she puts in those extra h’s?

Nope.

Shoot, I’m kind of irritated now by the idea that my objection to the music in the brotherhood series is due to an anti-rap bias. So here I am again.

My point. Again.: Why am I, a thirty-five-year-old white woman who lives in the suburbs, still driving around the mean streets of my resort town listening to rap music? Because the very first cassette tape (*snicker*) I ever bought was LL Cool J’s Radio. We are heavily influenced by our youth. Rap is my nostalgia, and it still influences my taste in new music. For the brotherhood? Where the hell are their influences??? They’re missing.

Rock the Bells, bitches.

I was reading Ward’s message board a while ago and someone asked if any of the brothers was going to end up with someone who isn’t white. Ward’s answer was something to the effect “I don’t know. They choose their own mates.” Which of course means no.

If someone, anyone, says “I don’t know,” why would you assume they mean anything beyond “I don’t know”? Many writers claim that ideas come to them out of the blue, some say they are surprised by the directions taken by their characters. Patricia Cornwell admitted that she had no idea who the killer was until the end of one book when Kay Scarpetta opened her front door and there he was.

I have never understood how readers can state with such certainty that an author’s answer cannot possibly be what it is. And the frequency with which that happens is astonishing. We can make any scientific wild guesses we like about an author’s motives or intentions, but to state unequivocally that “I don’t know” “of course means no” is not valid.

Why isn’t one brother locked in his room listening to opera and telling those other mf’s to turn that not-even-music shit DOWN, for god’s sake?

Apparently, Phury, whose book is due next, loves classical music and dislikes the others’ musical selections, if that helps.

We can make any scientific wild guesses we like about an author’s motives or intentions, but to state unequivocally that “I don’t know” “of course means no” is not valid.

I’m hearing echoes of my A Level Philosophy here.

Knowledge is based (so Socrates said) upon fact.  Opinion cannot be based upon fact, because opinion is not knowledge.

Opinion cannot, therefore, be based upon fact.  Therefore, if something is not based upon fact, it must be based upon ignorance, which is the opposite of fact.

That’s as far as I got.  spamfilter: air83.  Yep: my philosophy is based upon hot air.  So what?

Is there any explanation given in the books (or by the author outside the books) for why she puts in those extra h’s?

I think these words, the ones in the glossary, are from the vampire’s Old Language or are supposed to represent it. Their rituals and prayers are spoken in that language. For myself, I’m just glad it’s not Klingon.

“Rock the Bells, bitches.”

This line alone makes me like you Victoria.

BEGIN QUOTE Shoot, I’m kind of irritated now by the idea that my objection to the music in the brotherhood series is due to an anti-rap bias. So here I am again END QUOTE

Victoria, I wasnt calling you out. I was generally referring to the tone of the posts on this thread. And I maintain that there seems to be an anti-rap anti-hip hop tone on this thread. Whether the posters of those comments intended it or not it came across that way. While I can understand now that the commenters where referring to unease with a dissonance between the music featured in the story and the lives that the Brothers live as characterized by Ward. The comments only slightly dealt with that unease and rather focused on how lame rap is and past a certain age listening to hip hop and rap demonstrates a lack of maturity or taste. Again, I would put forth that this is the same type of snobbery that folks on this site rail against. Was pointing it out. But perhaps it just goes to show that on the Interwebs things dont sound as we mean them to.

Fascinating music discussion. You learn something new everyday.

Also, I dont remember where exactly but one brother (Vishous i believe) said that he was hooked into classical music but heard this one (rap, gangster, whatever) song by a certain artist and that hooked him.

Victoria, I wasnt calling you out. I was generally referring to the tone of the posts on this thread.

Well, I’m glad I didn’t challenge you to a freestyle battle then. *g* I probably reacted because I felt guilty about implying that rap wasn’t really music. I was role-playing, I swear!

And thanks, Melissa. *snort* I have this long-standing problem… Every time I see a woman wearing really long, dangly earrings I have the urge to say, “You’re jingling, baby.” Sometimes I can’t resist. Except that I live in Utah and no one knows what the hell I’m talking about. I like to think it adds to my adorably quirky mystique. Ha!

Trumystique: I, also, don’t have anything against hip hop and rap per se—but I do think Ludacris, 50 cent et al are shitty, shitty, shitty. Catchy, for sure. But shitty. I probably didn’t emphasize the fact that it was the specific artists mentioned in the novel and the incongruity between the music and the characters that got on my nerves, and not the genre per se. Jurassic 5 are legitimately excellent, in my opinion (though a very different sound/feel than gangsta), and Devin the Dude gets a more mixed reaction from me but I think he’s sharp and hilarious regardless. (And that about exhausts my hip hop/rap repertoire, because I’m more an indie/electronica/funk/soul/rock/classical girl myself.)

Speaking of music: do y’all remember how Nora Roberts used to refer to Cream pretty consistently in her books about, ohhh, 7 or 8 years ago? (She might still, for all I know; I haven’t read any La Nora in a long, long time.) I remember some hilarious threads on AAR about how incongruous that came across, and a lot of good-natured ribbing about WHY OH WHY CREAM FERGODSAKES? (For the record: love Cream. “Tales of Brave Ulysses” is one of my all-time favorite songs. But having the characters lovin’ on Cream in a few novels in a row struck a weird note, and other people felt the same.)

The conclusion here is: Some romance readers are music nerds and are well-nigh impossible to please.

Stephanie: I explained how I got my grade—the C- is an average of how much I liked it vs. how good I thought it was (which is generally how I tend to grade my books; however, there is usually a closer congruence between “enjoyed” and “thought it was actually any good”). I liked it just fine, and I have the rest of the series TBR, but I’m not in any rush to read them. It wasn’t really heroin for me. Maybe more like Vicodin. It induced interesting sensations, but it made me barf when I tried to move, so in all, not something I’m eager to use recreationally, and when I do have to use it, I take about 1/3 the prescribed dose.

Is there any explanation given in the books (or by the author outside the books) for why she puts in those extra h’s?

I seem to recall reading somewhere, either in a book or in an interview, that the English words of “fury” and “vengeance” and “fearsome”, etc, were derived from the vampire’s language rather than vice versa, taking English words and tossing in a few extra letters.  This was meant to explain the familiar words and similar meanings, but funky spellings.

I could be misremembering, though.  Either way, it doesn’t really work for me, and it’s far too easy to riff on, so it’s not a direction I’d personally go as an author.  But JR Ward is definitely making more money than me so who’s to say I’m not the one who’s totally off-base?

By the way, I cannot for the life of me remember the Mary Sue joke!  Help a bitch out, Candy, because I have no clue if I even still have Wrath’s book lying around anywhere.

Regarding the Old Language *evil grin* I’m sincerely happy JRWard didn’t choose to grab French or Spanish words, butcher the spelling, and then assign them meaning. As it is, I’ve enough trouble with authors (or could be their copyeditors for all I know) who use “cajones” for “balls”—it’s cOjones, people! (yes, personal peeve).

I read Dark Lover when it came out. I am living proof that Ward’s books are definitely not crack. Not even Vicodin, more like expired Tylenol(SP). I found the whole world she created contrived and overworked, didn’t like the way the characters talked, didn’t buy the music or the cowboy boots. Not going to read any of the others anytime soon either. Too many other books out there.

That’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it.

Amy F.B. Elias,

“I seem to recall reading somewhere, either in a book or in an interview, that the English words of “fury” and “vengeance” and “fearsome”, etc, were derived from the vampire’s language rather than vice versa, taking English words and tossing in a few extra letters.”

Now, the uber geek comes out and I am truly curious.  I would love to know where you read this if you ever remember.  If she is doing something like this, there is possibly some honest to god—strange though it may appear—logic.  If you look at some of the hypothesized language forms for proto-Indo-European etc etc, you will see some weird /h/ action.  Also it crops up in Sanskrit. 

Examples ahoy:

Sanskrit /bhratar/—-> English /brother/—-> could possibly become JR Ward /bhrother/

Sanskrit /vidhava/——> English /widow/——> again hypothetically JR Ward /widhow/

Anyway, it’s way out on a limb as far as a theory but I am truly interested and it ups my interest—read addiction—for the JR Ward books.

“If someone, anyone, says “I don’t know,” why would you assume they mean anything beyond “I don’t know”? “

I don’t know is of course I don’t know. I don’t know and it’s not my choice but one made by a fictional character is something else entirely.

I have three reasons I would read more into her statements. One I tend to view everything an author says as up for grabs as far as literary criticism goes. Two Ward is notorious for leaving thinly veiled statements on her message board, and three smart authors (no one can deny Ward’s publicity saavy) know that to a degree they’re playing a politics game. Saying no straight out would possibly offend people, saying no and blaming someone else no matter how thin the excuse saves her the trouble of saying no straight out.

Personally, I see both her comment that the brothers are their own race and that they choose their own mates as justification for the fact that her cast of characters is almost uniformly white. Though, Dr. Manello may be latino.

I’ll admit that maybe I’m reading to much into the racial issue here. These stories are set now, in the US, but there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot in the way of racial diversity. I don’t think authors have a responsibility to depict reality, but the vampires are a superior race, and skin tone wise white. I find that sort of disturbing as well as illogical. Not that lots of paranormal romance don’t do that as well, I don’t mean to single out Ward here.