Smart Bitches, Trashy Books

I am sure that this puts me on the shit list of many authors, but I don’t think the law expressly precludes the sale of promotional items, regardless of how marked.  Just because the book says it’s not for resale means diddly.  You could stamp that on any book until the cows come home and it would never be enforceable.

I think that publishers and authors need to have signed agreements with the reviewers whereby they consent to not selling promotional material without prior approval or written consent from the copyright holder, who is the publishder and not the author.  The author has sold its distribution rights to the publisher and the publisher owns the copyright to the ARC itself. 

Certainly no first sale has occurred, but the question of resale (v. a republication) of a promotional item hasn’t often been found to be a violation. It might be ethically wrong but I don’t know that it is legally wrong.

One more thing - authors can sell arcs and have done so frequently on ebay. So if you want the money from ARC buyers, why not put the ARC up there.  I’ve seen LKH’s books sell for thousands.

I have never bought or sold an ARC. 

But I hafta say- there can’t be THAT many of them out there that it would effect the authors’ numbers?  C’mon that’s why they’re going for so much money!

Get over yourselves.

Huh. I bought an ARC of an LKH book once at a USB for 3 bucks. I didn’t feel bad about ripping her off.

‘Cause she’s been ripping me off with her bullshit books for years! And yet I can’t stop reading her.

But I’ve never bought or sold an ARC on Ebay, for the record.

I think these authors have every right to be upset.  Ebay seems to make a habit of allowing unethical vendor practices.

Look at how ebay’s treated JK Rowling, who has lawyers and money aplenty to pursue her goals—among other things, she wants to protect fans from getting ripped off by all those vendors claiming to be selling real JK Rowling signed books/merchandise, when in fact they’re forgeries.  Ebay’s response has been basically to laugh in her face.

I can’t fool myself that my decision *not* to buy anything at all from ebay will make any difference.  But at least I’m keeping their paws out of my wallet :roll:

As an author, I’ll weigh in and say that I think it sucks royal ass when reviewers go and sell off ARCs—especially ones that don’t even appear to have been opened.

I know lots of folks think authors make tons of money but most of the time, writing novels is more like an expensive hobby than any kind of living. It often takes years of very hard work and many books out before an author will start to make enough money to get out of what the goverment considers the poverty bracket.

It’s very typical to have earned maybe $300-7000 during a year on a book that took the author 6 months to write—then add in the money we spend out of our own pockets to promo the damn thing. Typically, advertizing on the internet sites and magazine ads costs around $100-200, sending out ARCs and books to contest winners around $100, and god forbid if we try to attend a conference or two. Going to Romantic Times alone will run an author about $1500 and that’s if she’s sharing a room.

On top of all that, we still need to pay for our gas, electricity, and other bills, too. And our kids need to eat, too.

Why do we continue to write if it takes forever (if even then) to make e decent living at being an author? It’s because we LOVE to write and for some of us, it’s almost a NEED to write.

Yet, still, why should we stand aside and let others unfairly profit from our work?

—Cynthia Williams

I think there are two key points here (a) if the reviewer actually wrote a review and (b) if they’re selling the ARC prior to publication of the book/while it will affect the book’s sales figures.

If reviewers take ARCs, don’t review them and then make a profit by selling them prior to publication, I can see why authors would be annoyed. I don’t think reviewers are legally obliged to review any ARC sent to them, but if they say they’ll write a review, they should write a review.

If someone sells on an ARC long after the book has been published, I don’t think there’s a problem at all, because it’s being sold more as an artefact/curiosity item than as a book, or at least, it’s not any worse than a reader buying any other second-hand copy. If an ARC is sold prior to the book’s publication, the seller is taking advantage of the scarcity of the item and breaking the implicit agreement that ARCs are not for resale/should not affect sales of the published edition of the book, and that does seem unfair to the author, even if it isn’t illegal.

Selling an ARC is wrong.  It still amazes me that people pull crap like this.  If the positions were reserved and they were getting ripped off they’d be pissed too.  A convenient form of ethics..

“So fans who lurve us pay big money to rip us off?”

Well, actually, the fans aren’t. The only thing that really disturbs me about this rant is how it is turned into a diatribe against fans and readers. Reviewers selling them? Sure, that’s bad, unethical, and go after them. Cut off that source, plug those leaks.

But to accuse the readers of ripping off an author for buying an ARC? Uh, no. The reviewer ripped off your shipping costs. The reader didn’t. And my math skills aren’t all that bad, but my familiarity with fan behaviour is even better.

That ARC was never a part of your numbers.
You were never going to get royalties from the ARC.
You were going to get a review from that ARC.

That reader (fan) is still going to give you some pretty damn good word-of-mouth publicity. That’s what fans who spend ridiculous amounts of money for ARCs do…that’s what fans who even look for a certain author’s ARC on ebay do.

And if a reader spends $30 to get an ARC of a book, then you can bet your ass they’re going to buy the real thing when it comes out. A lot of people downloaded pirated versions of LOTR or SW:III before it came out, but you know they were still dressed up as freaking elves and Jedis, standing in line at midnight before opening day to see the movie.

Are you pissed off at the sellers or the buyers? Give the fans a fucking break—they’re the ones who are going to buy the next book, and the next one…and you know they’re going to buy the current one, too. Real fans like pretty covers.

I don’t think it’s about money. Well, it does, in a way. As far as I can see:

a) certain authors’ anxiety that if an ARC was sold on a such thing as Ebay, there might a chance that an early word gets passed around that this book is utterly shite, which might affect future sales;

b) some authors might feel anxious that some readers are paying a lot for something that wasn’t bought in the first place;

c) it’s, in a way, about ‘trust’ between publisher/author and bookseller/reviewer, so by selling an ARC way before it’s due to be released would piss authors/publishers off;

and d) some authors are a bit irrational with this sort of thing because how is it different from them giving ARCs away and someone selling those ARCs? Money, of course.

But while the seller gets the money, the book STILL has a chance of generating word of mouth, thanks to its buyer. How is it different from giving an ARC to a “fan” or whomever, not knowing that the “fan” will definitely spread the Word?

How about when a bookseller or reviewer gives away their ARC to their friend? This still won’t give authors their money, reviews, and any numerical increase.

What’s my point? I think authors should look at a different angle of this, e.g. a lot of, for instance, ebay buyers would notice the frenetic bidding for an ARC and they would be curious enough to investigate by getting their own copies. So to have someone selling an ARC is a small investment in return for the exposure - of one author’s name and book title on the ARC - to a bigger audience.

FWIW, anyway.

::: stepping quietly up to the mic :::

Yes, it’s wrong. And whether it’s enforceable or not, it’s still illegal. If a copyright holder stamps “Not for resale” on anything, then it’s Not. For. Fucking. Resale. I think the lack of consent for resale is fairly crystal on that one.

That said…

::: deep breath, because I know I’m about to get my ass handed to me :::

... pick your battles. You’ll never win this one. What’s the average ARC run? Between 300-500, right? At least, that’s what I’m told it’s been for my books, so I’ll go with that. Of those, maybe 10 make it onto eBay. Am I going to get my blood pressure up over 10 assholes selling my books on eBay? Hell, no. I’ve got assholes cutting me off in traffic, assholes gouging me on gas prices, and assholes calling my phone number because it used to belong to someone who apparently has never paid a fucking bill, and no matter how many times I tell them the bitch doesn’t have this number anymore, they STILL keep calling.

Sorry. What were we talking about?

Oh, yes, it’s wrong. But no publisher is going to spend money to go after 10 assholes, and no author has the money to go after 10 assholes. And between all the ARCs being sold out there, it’s probably the same 10 assholes. So is it worth getting upset about? No. I mean, it’s the righteous thing to do, but it’s not the pragmatic thing to do. All the authors getting pissed off, you’re totally right. Not to be all, “Hey, let me bend over for you,” but it’s a fight that’s going nowhere and karma kicks ass for you when you’re not looking anyway. Those 10 assholes will get theirs eventually, I’m sure.

So I just think maybe getting upset about it isn’t the healthiest option for the author, especially because we’re all broke and can’t afford the medical.

And, um, that’s pretty much it.

Um… whoops. Can someone delete my double post? Please? ;) Love you forever…

It’s not about money for me (cause I’m not a huge author and we don’t make that much anyway)

For me, it’s about a violation of trust. Because I don’t send you an ARC so you can profit. I don’t send reviewers an ARC so they can send it elsewhere before it’s published either.

There’s a relationshhip between author/publisher and reviewer and I don’t think the application of ethics is too much to ask, nor is it something you should have to sign an agreement over.

If something has - ADVANCED REVIEW COPY NOT FOR SALE written on the cover - is it a mystery that you’re not supposed to sell it? It’s not even something you have to impute - it’s spelled out in detail. And really, I don’t think it has to be “against the law” for a person to realize something is unethical and crappy.

I don’t disrespect my readers, I love my readers and I’m not addressing readers in general or even the majority of reviewers who seem to be able to comport themselves with honestly and ethics.

I just want to jump back in real quick to say that I have no issue with fans buying ARCs.

I love fans and I think every author I’ve ever met or conversed with does, too. I don’t give a shit how someone got my book and I appreciate every person who took the time to read my book.

HOWEVER, I do have issues with the seller who is selling off an ARC or PDF copies of an author’s work. PDFs especially can be a rip off because it takes no effort to sell an electronic copy. You could sell hundreds. With that said, a line has to be drawn between what is and isn’t okay to sell and ARCs fall on the unethical side.

—Cynthia Williams

but I do have issues with folks who don’t even crack open the ARC

As a [now semi-retired] professional reviewer for many years, I have to agree with the author - if it’s an ARC marked NOT FOR SALE, it shouldn’t be sold. I’m one of the evil ones who has reported seeing ARC’s for sale on Amazon.com both to Amazon, and the author.

I still have autographed ARC’s from eight years ago, when I got my start - I wouldn’t sell ‘em for love OR money - much to my husband’s dismay. “We could insulate the whole house with all the *cuss word* books you have.”

I’m not a moralist, a prude, or even a perfect person on my best day, but I adore authors and appreciate what it takes to COMPLETE a whole book, never mind CONTRACT one!

I did steal a pack of gum once, (I consider selling ARC’s the same as stealing. Just my opinion.), but my mother caught me and made me bring it back into the store. Directly to the manager. Embarrassed? Oh, yeah. Piffle.

I guess I just can’t get myself that worked up about this . . .

As a new author, I can’t image anyone would WANT my ARC, and if I make it to the rank of Best Seller, whose ARCs are collectable, then I’m HAPPY someone out there wants my ARC. If it makes them feel close to me, or like they’re MY BIGGEST FAN, fan-fucking-tastic. I’ll give up sixty-cents for the glow that brings the fan who buys the ARC.

In fact, I’d probably use it as fodder for my website: Odd sightings and news. Check this out, someone is auctioning off an ARC of my upcoming book on ebay and the bids are up $35.56. Wow. For a book all of you can buy for just $6.99 next month! How fun to know that I have fans who just can’t wait.

But that’s me.

Another quick point on the fans thing… they probably have no idea it’s even wrong. Those ARCs are put up, they’re on eBay, no one’s saying anything, it must be okay, right? I mean, they have no idea about the politics of publishing. They just know they want a good yarn, and they want yours. NOW. So god bless ‘em. I don’t think the fans carry any bad karma in this, whatsoever. And if they love the book and give it good word-of-mouth - which, if they’re shelling out $35 cold for it, they probably will - then there’s bonus there for us, too.

Again, not saying it’s not wrong, just saying it might not be worth the aggravation to worry about it.

Eh - it’s a dick move. But it seems like the number of ARCs that are sold when they “shouldn’t” be is a rather miniscule hit to take, financially, and makes up for itself many times over in word-of-mouth sales. I’m sorta with Kel on this one: get over yourselves.

But then - it’s also a dick move, and I’m totally here with a you-go-girl attitude and a potty-mouth vocab in hand for any ranting that is solely based on The Principle Of The Thing (as opposed to the piffling finances of the thing). Backstabbing bastiches.

This rant from these authors have really turned me off from buying their book (and I have purchased ALL of PC Cast’s previous releases).  Frankly, they should be excited that someone is willing to pay some big $$$ for their arc.  What is the purpose of the ARC? To generate a positive review for the upcoming book thus word of mouth and hopefully that will translate to sales at the bookstore.  If the problem is that no review is forthcoming, well maybe the review wasn’t positive.  I know plenty of sites that will only post GLOWING reviews of books (that upon reading was mediocre at best!).

Also about the cracking open the book—how do you know it wasn’t read?  My books look brand new after I finish reading them.  I don’t crack the spine or wrinkle the pages but that is the way I treat my books!

As for the arcs—we get plenty donated to our library booksales thus they go for 50 cents per book.

I’m more put off with the rant rather than the issue of selling the ARC’s.

I agree with Keishon. It was the rant that kind of annoyed me.

If my favorite author had written a book that hadn’t been released yet and its ARC was available somewhere for some cash, I’d totally jump on it. Not that I ever have any cash.

I should think that it’s the ultimate compliment to the author that some geek like me would pay top dollar for their stuff.

So fans who lurve us pay big money to rip us off?

That’s not cool, dude. It makes it sound like it’s we the readers are the ones at fault that some unethical doofus are selling ARCs on Ebay.

I’m just sayin’.

First: the copyright on my published work? Mine. Not the publisher’s. See the little copyright symbol, it’s got the author’s name next to it.

Second: ARCs are UNCORRECT proofs. Sent out early and unfinished in the hope of reviews coming in just when the book is published. Reviewers (real ones) understand this. Readers usually don’t.

Third: What really pisses me off about this is that the reviewer has no accountability. They can read the ARC or not, write a review or not, publish it anonymously and do a hatchet job if they so please—and to top it all off, they sell the damn thing BEFORE it’s published. This really is adding insult to injury.

Fourth: You can do something about it (today I found six ARCs of my new novel, the one that’s coming out next month, on ebay, and I sent them six complaints asking for the ARCs to be pulled until after the pub date).

Fifth: No matter what you do, in the end you can’t win.

Hi All,

I am newbie here as I often lurk, and don’t respond. I love coming over and having a good laugh which you ladies give me weekly.

I wanted to say that I think the worst thing about what is happening is that the “good” reviewers are getting a bad rap. Not all of us actually run out and sell them with or without reading them. (Plus I know several who if you put a crease in the spine you are committing book abuse.) I love mine and collect them all faithfully. I think it is an honor to get an actual ARC.

Also as a review website owner I can say that if I ever found out about one of our reviewers selling ARC’s anywhere there would be action taken. I do hope they can track them down somehow at least for some retribution.

1.  The distribution right of the ARC is the publishers.  You authors sell that to the publishers in exchange for advances and royalties.  The publisher has the right to determine the method of distribution. Maybe the contract says differently but that’s my understanding.  Authors own the copyright of the work but have given up the right of publication and distribution for the ones published.  You can’t print up books of your own and sell them.  Authors can’t even use characters from one series in another series for a different publisher because they don’t own the rights to those characters.

2.  Who cares if they are uncorrected proofs?  Are you telling us readers that there are huge, significant changes between the ARC and the final version so that if a reader doesn’t like the ARC she will like the final version?

3.  The reviewer owes the author nothing.  NOTHING.  Is the author paying for the review?  Is the reviewer somehow indebted to the author?  How does the reviewer owe anything to the author?  WHy the sense of outraged entitlement?

4.  How is the sale of ARCs truly hurting an author?  Can some author point out where the sales declined because someone bought an ARC off ebay? 

5.  Readers do not owe authors anything either.  We do not have to read the books.  We do not have to buy the books.  We can choose to engage in swaps, buy from UBS, or lend them from the library.  We are not responsible for feeding anyone’s children, sending them to college or in anyway supporting an author unless we so desire.  Jaysus, as Kel, said, get over yourselves.  Worry more about your plot and characterization rather than some reviewer not reading your book and making $50 bucks off of it. 

I give away free stuff in my job that allows others to make a buck at my benefit.  I figure its the price of doing business and that those people might just be happy enough to come back to me.  Maybe that’s something authors should think about.

Jane, you said:

“Authors can’t even use characters from one series in another series for a different publisher because they don’t own the rights to those characters.”

Not true. My characters are mine, and I can take them anywhere. Where did you get this idea?

Beyond that, I don’t think you and I have much to talk about. If you want me to get over myself, you might consider doing the same.

to see ARCs out before the book is published can potentially throw a wrench in the possible post-pub-date purchase stats.

How, though?  Wouldn’t the bad review (assuming that the reviewer sells it because he or she has no interest in reading it) be worse for post pub date ##s?  Or is the “any publicity is better than no publicity” the argument here? Because I truly don’t see the negative impact to an author in terms of book sales, but if someone can make a convincing argument, I could be swayed.  For the record, I have never received any review copies and if I did, I wouldn’t sell them. But I am not going to harangue a reader for buying them.

“The reviewer owes the author nothing.  NOTHING.  Is the author paying for the review?  Is the reviewer somehow indebted to the author?  How does the reviewer owe anything to the author?  WHy the sense of outraged entitlement?”

From a business standpoint (I’m a marketer in the biz for 10 years) the reviewer made a good faith arrangement with the publisher, i.e. the author.  At the very least, a review should have been submitted.  A REVIEW.  ANY REVIEW.  SOMETHING THAT RESEMBLED THE IMPLIED PROMISE MADE BY THE REVIEWER.

The auctioning of the ARC is quite outside the purview of any implication of the initial deal.

If she planed never to review the ARC or to sell it on Ebay then she should called herself a thief or a seller, but NOT a reviewer.

And that’s all I have to say about that.

Allow me to pose this to all Bitches - suppose there was an advanced movie copy of Star Wars or LOTR for sale on Ebay? What would happen then? How would the arguments fall? Just curious…

Welllll, I go get my daughter from college, take her to dinner, come home, and see a SBTBs rant that I started!  Very, very cool. 

First - for those of you who got your panties all in a huff about my one sentence about fans who lurve us ripping us off.  Ladies, grow a sense of humor.  That was called sarcasm and definitely not meant to be taken literally.  It was an “I don’t believe that for one minute” comment. 

The issue, ladies, is NOT legality.  Jane - there is a difference between illegal and unethical.  Do you know that?  I’m positive it’s not illegal to sell ARCs.  Please.  I’m also just as positive it’s unethical to sell them. 

For people who think authors should just smile politely and ignore this asshat behavior (like good little girls).  How about this - how about you go to work and bust your ass for months.  Then your boss lets other companies get a peek at your work.  Well, some of those other companies grab the work and sell slices of it on the sly for their own profit?  You gonna be okay with that?  Sit back and smile politely?  Not give a shit?  I don’t think so. 

It’s not huge numbers - and I would fucking LOVE it if I have 300 - 500 ARCs printed by Berkley or Luna or St. Martins.  Ladies, I’m talking about THIRTY FUCKING BOOKS FOR MYSTERIA.  It’s not huge money or numbers.  It’s the ethics behind it.  It’s stealing.  Period.

Oh and Jane dahling, as Sara D. mentioned - I own the copyright to my characters.  Not some nameless, faceless publisher.  As a matter of fact, this Mysteria anthology came from characters the four of us created for a Red Cross benefit anthology.  We loved them so much we decided to use them in our own anthology.  I sold the book to Berkley as the first author created anthology the publisher has ever purchased.  They are mine.  And Sue Grant’s.  And Gena Showlater’s.  And Mary Janice Davidson’s.  Yes.  This is personal.

Yep, I do know the difference between illegal and unethical.  I wasn’t sure everyone else did.  Because a person isn’t a thief (which is defamation per se by the way) if they have the legal right to sell something.  I stand corrected about the rights to characters.

PC I for one agree with you. They should not be allowed to sell them. I love my ARC’s and would NEVER sell them and it floors me that people do. It surprises me with all EBAY’s “standards” they would allow it. I just hope you all don’t think all reviewers are up to things like this. We (the good ones) have worked hard for our ARC’s, and don’t want to lose them because of the actions of a few.

Sorry if some folks feel that reviewers in general are getting a bad wrap. I don’t think anyone meant to imply that.

Very few reviewers sell ARCs. I think most of us know the majority of them work hard to write an in-depth review and the pay is peanuts for what they do.

I won’t belabor the point of selling ARCs. I think it was well said in the original post.

—Cynthia Williams

I have to agree with Susan that just because the spine wasn’t broken doesn’t mean it wasn’t read.  Some people were brought up to take care of their books.

I’m staying the hell out of the rest of the argument though.

I agree Cynthia. I just hate that in a bunch of good ones you find the few bad ones who do this to the profession. I wonder personally why EBAY can’t be held responsible for it. If people were selling burned music cd’s wouldn’t that be the same type of thing. It says not for resale on the front of the book.

Cynthia and JoAnn - I absolutely don’t mean to imply most reviewers do this.  It’s just a very few.  I think of most reviewers as I do teachers, my peers in my other career.  They are under-paid and under-appreciated.

And Jane - when we call those who sell something that states on the cover NOT FOR SALE thieves, that’s neither defamation, libel or slander.  That’s fact.

I own a review site.  I read many books a month, both ebooks and print books.  My print ARCs are among my most prized possessions.  I would never sell them.  I read my print ARCs cover to cover without ever breaking the spine.  I’m a person that doesn’t break the spine or dog ear pages.  I can’t help it, it’s just how I read.  My friends make fun of me.  How can I read like that?  Don’t my hands hurt?  I see a book laid flat on a surface and I’m screaming book abuse.  lol

I think some are forgetting not all ARCs go to reviewers.  Many go to booksellers.  I have a friend who is a UBS/Indie book seller. 

First, I’ll say she doesn’t sell the ARCs she receives on Ebay, but she does give them away to regular customers as a sign of goodwill.  I’ve even heard of big bookstore chains giving away ARCs from store locations. 

Second, rarely is she asked to even give feedback on the ARCs she receives, when asked she does submit a review to the publisher.

There’s no way to truly know where these books are coming from.  But, I’m wondering if this is the hill any author wants to die on.

Is selling ARCs on Ebay wrong?  Probably.

Is it going to make a difference in the bottom line of a book?  Probably not.

Is a rant like this likely to turn off READERS?  Probably more than you may think.

I think there is nothing wrong with a bookseller giving away an ARC to a customer.  That’s just fine.  It’s like a little treat.  I even applaud them.  It’s the selling and profiting from the ARC that’s an issue.

And why is it that authors can’t have strong opinions on these subjects without being threatened with the “likely to turn off READERS” card?  Can we not, too, be women who have opinions?  Is there something about writing for a living that forces us into pillbox hats, gloves, crossing our legs at the ankles with a prim expression on our faces whilst being we’re good little girls?  I like to think my readers appreciate the fact that I’m a real person who has a real backbone and real opinions.  And I’m not going to sit on the sidelines with my mouth shut for fear of offending. 

Brings to mind Bradbury’s point in FAHR 451.

i think the poster that mentioned ebay would never allow advance copies of lord of the rings or other movies to be sold, made a good point.

if the author owns the copyright and the book is labled ” not to be sold” then ebay shouldnt allow those to be sold on their site.

why do the two mediums differ? (movies/books) copyrights are copyrights.

P.C., is there any particular reason you’ve twice implied that there’s sexism involved in this?  I don’t see how that comes into play at all or does anything but cloud the issue.

I would be steamed if I saw an ARC of a book I wrote for sale on EBAY. I am curious of another scenario I’ve seen a lot of lately. I work in a public library and about once a year my boss goes to some book fair for librarians where she is given several free ARCS. She then brings them back and tells me to put them in the collection. Umm…are we really supposed to be doing that or is library use a completely different story? When I discard them I can’t put them into the booksale so we have to try to see if someone will just take them.

Hrm. I’d have to say at first I thought, hey, that’s rather offensive. I’m not positive how it works (someone correct me), but doesn’t the cost of ARCs come out of the author’s pocket?

Let’s say I send out copies to reviewers, who turn around and sell the book on ebay. Way I figure it, they’re getting payment (cash at most, increased readership at least) in some way if they’re reviewing the book—and then to sell the book seems like double-dipping. Their benefit of a free book, as a reviewer, is that they didn’t have to pay for that cost of doing their job. Legal or illegal, I’d say it’s clearly unethical to then make more cash off me; if they’re going to do that, the least they could do is pay for the book in the first place. Then resell all they like, but I’m not made of money.

That said, I also recall being a bookseller myself, and getting ARCs for some unknown reason (I was never a very big bookstore, and in a small town, and rarely sold bestsellers; the first few ARCs prompted me to call the distributor and ask, “uh, do I have to pay for this? has there been some mistake? should I return this?”). I read some, didn’t read others, and they’d sit in a stack until I hit a point of frustration and put them all up on the shelf, and was done with it. I just didn’t know what else to do with them.

The other “free” source of books was via a major broadcaster, which gets hundreds and hundreds of ARCs on a monthly basis, in hopes someone there will review them—music, movies, books, the whole gamut. There’s a room at the company where these items are dumped afterwards, and the employees are welcome to pick through and take what they want. My sister would go in and snag anything she thought might sell at my shop, or that I might like personally. (I still have about ten of the CDs or books she brought me.)

Again, it never occurred to me whether this was right or wrong, but I must add that in no instance did I ever receive a book by either means that was marked “NOT FOR SALE”. They all looked like normal books; I wonder how many ARCs are coming through employees at a television network, or a newspaper, or a radio station.

Does that change the ethics, if the person who received the book (in the end) in no way gave a promise of giving anything in return? And for those bookstores and businesses who receive tons of ARCs annually, just what are they supposed to do with them?

Y’know, come to think of it, if a book is NOT marked “not for sale, advanced review copy”, would this make it less valuable for resale on ebay?

And why is it that authors can’t have strong opinions on these subjects without being threatened with the “likely to turn off READERS” card?

Your a public person selling your work to consumers. Image is everything, they say, whether you like it or not.

All in all, I just find your rant rather colorful and insulting in some aspects of it regardless of the issue. It didn’t achieve the effect you were looking for from this reader.

“Anonymous,” the reason I purposefully used sexist analogies is because they work.  Men haven’t been told for generation after generation to keep their opinions to themselves and just smile and look pretty.  Women have.  This is analogous to how I feel (right or wrong) when someone wants me to keep quiet about an issue.  It’s a workable analogy, especially in light of the fact that I am a woman and I do write the much maligned romance novel.  And FYI, on this site we’re not implying sexism, we say it out loud and we don’t do so anonymously.

Rebyj, you don’t see the same thing happening for movies because there’s actually a federal law against it, and they do everything they can to prevent it with added warnings and labels.

I’ve seen screening copies of movies up for the Oscar on DVD or videotape before they were even available in those formats, and not only are there warning labels on the box stating, “For promotional use only. Not for sale or rental. Art not final.” The label also repeats itself as an overlay onscreen every 20 or so minutes. PLUS, the movie switches from black and white to color and back again every now and then. Not to mention, there are more warnings on the box and at the beginning of the movie: For private home use only. Federal law provides severe civil and criminal penalties for the unauthorized reproduction, distribution or exhibition of copyrighted motion pictures and video formats.

Same goes for software. There’s always extra labeling on top of the NFR (Not For Resale) indication. They include contact information and a note that if the item was purchased, please contact the company.

Just because a particular copy looks unread doesn’t mean the reviewer never read the book. I’ve now received three copies (which I did not request) of the same novel (not a romance). I ended up giving all three away after reading the first one. Sometimes the people (publicists, publishers or whoever) passing out these items do so indiscriminately.

If you want to make money from ebay sales or Amazon sales, join their affiliate programs and link to them from your website or blog. It’s a simple and easy way to make money.

I bought a JAK ARC. It was for sale before the book was even out on e-Bay. I couldn’t believe I could actually buy one. So I did. It wasn’t 30 bucks; it was like $15 (cheaper than the hardback, even). I haven’t bought one since; I did feel slightly bad about it, but it was kinda of like the skipping school bad feeling. Which is to say, I was thrilled. 

Maybe if JAK knew she’d be mad, but I expect JAK takes it all in stride. I buy her books at USBs too. She’d probably rather I didn’t, but they’re books that had been out of print, and I believe when they got released in special editions I bought them new too.

Once, and I kid you not—I sold a Castle MacFadden of hers on e-bay for THREE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY FOUR DOLLARS. WHOOEE. I read it first, of course. But it paid for my vacation to see my mom. Which was a crappy vacation now that I think about it. Probably JAK would have rather had the $374 herself. And she could have that and more if she had a copy of her MacFadden Hired Husband and sold it on e-Bay. But I doubt she would. She probably doesn’t need the money. 

I buy her books in hardcover as soon as they come out. I have multiple copies of paperbacks. In short, I spend a lot of money on JAK and she gets the major portion of it.

I think that what you are mad about, P.C. Cast, is not that people sell and buy ARCs, because that’s kind of silly. You can’t control it and getting angry about something you can’t control is unproductive and’ll give you a heart attack some day. I think you are mad that writing books doesn’t pay what it should. And especially romance books. It sucks, but that’s the way it is. Luckily, even though the industry doesn’t respect romance writers like they should, romance readers do. We spend lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of money on books. Wherever we find them. And we always will. Don’t force us to trade in back alleys. That’s just wrong.

I’m not turned off by your rant, it was kind of funny and vulgar. I love funny and vulgar. Plus, I have a very stressful job where I don’t get the respect I deserve, either. Thank god for romance books, without them, I’m pretty sure I’d cut someone. 

Maybe I’ll buy one of your books when I go to the bookstore tomorrow to pick JAK’s new Amanda Quick.

“First - for those of you who got your panties all in a huff about my one sentence about fans who lurve us ripping us off.  Ladies, grow a sense of humor.  That was called sarcasm and definitely not meant to be taken literally.  It was an “I don’t believe that for one minute” comment.”

Well, what about this:

Okay, so here’s the point that we’re trying to get out there to readers: WHEN YOU BUY AN ARC YOU’RE RIPPING THE AUTHOR THE FUCK OFF.

That was sarcasm, too?

Look, I totally agree that it’s unethical for the reviewers to sell these on ebay—but your rant is directed at the readers (fans) buying them. Right up there, in bold letters: “so here’s the point that we’re trying to get out there to readers.” READERS. Throw in a liberal use of the word “fuck”—in a ranty, pissed off way, not a humorous, snarky, or any other sarcastic way—and you’ve got readers who feel attacked.

Plug your dam, stop the leak. Be angry at the unethical reviewers, give them a nice swift kick in the ass for breaching your trust and wasting your publisher’s money. I’ll applaud it. But directing your rant at the readers (which is exactly how this is written, and my knickers aren’t the least bit twisted) is like rowing downstream ten miles and slapping the anglers (the ones who will feed you) with a rotten fish. 

The readers aren’t the ones ripping you the fuck off. And if you’re directing this to readers with the intention of stopping the cycle of buying/selling, then there’s a hell of a lot better ways to appeal to a reader’s sense of ethics and justice than accusing them of stealing the money from your pocket.

dang…i am dirt poor and get to buy one book a freakin month.. i’ll do reviews for free books!

get me in the loop!

________________________________

April…..you said:

Rebyj, you don’t see the same thing happening for movies because there’s actually a federal law against it, and they do everything they can to prevent it with added warnings and labels.

does anyone know if the publishing industry is trying to get laws passed similar to the movie industry laws?
i always thought copyrighted products were protected under federal law.. (keep in mind my education after high school has come from fiction novels LOL)

You know, I started doing this reviewing thing because I got a lot of opinions about the books I read and I’m not too shy to express them to the world.

Also, for the free books. And you know, I’m starting to get free books here and there.

An author who is a regular on this site sent me one with an autograph with my name on it and it didn’t just say “happy reading,” either.

I’m really proud of it and wouldn’t think about selling it on Ebay.

Uh… where was I?

Damn it, I just got on the computer to check my email and here I am again.

And why is it that authors can’t have strong opinions on these subjects without being threatened with the “likely to turn off READERS” card?  Can we not, too, be women who have opinions?

Yes, you can. And I don’t think it’s right for people to sell ARCs; your anger is understandable.

But you can have and express a strong opinion without telling readers, “YOU’RE RIPPING THE AUTHOR THE FUCK OFF.” I guess it gets your point across, but is the statement always true? I’ve received (though never bought) ARCs and later purchased the published copy so I can have a version with the final artwork. I doubt I’m the only one to do so.

I suspect I’m not the only one who couldn’t tell the difference between your angry use of “fuck/fucking” and the sarcastic use. It sure seemed like some of your anger was directed toward readers, even if that’s not what you intended.

For the record: yes, I’m a reviewer. No, I’ve never sold ARCs. I frequently give them away after reading them, and when I do, the book looks as if it hasn’t been read.

I repeat—I have no problem with your message. But judging by some of the previous comments, your delivery has turned off more than one reader here.

My first reaction to the rant was that it felt assaulting, then that it seemed an over-reaction to what, statistically speaking, seems a relatively small breach.

But, as I read through the comments here, I came to agree with the poster who pointed out the core problem of disrespect for Romance—and by extension, the Romance author—in various areas of the industry.  Contracts depend on sales; publishers seem (to my unstudied eyes, at least) to view all but the celebrity authors as raw labor; reviewers may or may not be approaching the books in a good faith way, and readers, well, we have our own strong opinions about the final products, to be sure (FWIW, I do think readers who purchase ARC’s for well over the cover price are doing so out of fan loyalty and will absolutely buy the published book, as well).  So as an author of a soon-to-be-released anthology, I could imagine that finding ARC copies for sale on eBay would feel like a last straw, of sorts. 

On the other hand, I can relate to the anger of readers who feel as if they are being attacked and cheapened in a sense.  Romance is so interesting in its uneasy balance of author and reader in a strange mimicry of female bonding/friendship.  The genre seems reluctant to posit the relationship between reader and author as purely commercial, but it’s not quite personal, either.  I think the lack of clear boundaries and the networks of relationships and connections that women’s fiction both reflects and seems to encourage sometimes leads to defensiveness on both sides. 

IMO, the corporatization of mass market publishing is out of control, draining any reverence for the art of writing out of the “business” of producing books, and catching many authors under the machinery.  I don’t know what the solution is, but I think it’s a shame when authors and readers, whom I’ve always felt should be natural allies, are estranged while publishers continue to rake in the dough at all of our ‘expense.’  I wonder sometimes if authors and readers are more often bound together in feeling ill-served by the genre/industry rather than bonded in an empowering or celebratory way around books for which we share a certain enjoyment.

As for the issue of ARC distribution, my understanding is similar to that of the poster who thought the process was somewhat “indiscriminate,” and therefore I am skeptical that it’s just reviewers who are selling them on eBay.  I think that two issues might be conflated here, both of which are entwined with the central issue of disrespect for Romance.

And as for eBay’s involvement or lack thereof, two words:  USER AGREEMENT, aka contract delimiting eBay’s obligations.  Did any of us actually read that thing before we agreed? 

Regarding Jane’s much maligned comment about series characters and copyright, I was told that when authors are writing for packagers, for example, they may very well have sold the copyright (trademark?) for their characters to the packager, so I think it depends on the specific conditions of authorship.  I’ll also admit to trepidation regarding easy distribution of the “thief” moniker, given what I’ve learned about tort law in the last couple of years.

And whether it’s enforceable or not, it’s still illegal. If a copyright holder stamps “Not for resale” on anything, then it’s Not. For. Fucking. Resale.

Um….not really.  Computer software companies still put notices on their packaging saying that you must abide by the terms and conditions - period.  Even though the courts have said that they don’t always apply.

“Not for Resale” isn’t a legal notice - it’s just a notice.  It’s helpful at work (bookstores get advance reader copies too); it keeps us from accidently shelving it with the regular book when it comes out.

Copyright does not allow the copyright owners to dicate how and when actual physical products will be sold on the secondhand market - ever.  Once it’s out of their hands, it’s out of their hands.  The only reason they can keep you from reselling software is because it requires a copy to be made every time it’s installed, sold, etc.

“Not for Resale” is more of a contract between the publisher and the people such books are given to.  That’s they only sense it which selling them is illegal.  It’s more like the notices on the Scholastic books that sometimes slip through our returns that say “not for retail sale.”  It isn’t a legal notice, but such books are different from the regular copies we sell (often lower quality) and we have promised Scholastic that we won’t sell them.  So - we’d get in trouble for misleading customers and breaking contract with the publishers. Violating copyrights isn’t even on the radar.

That said, selling acrs before the book is published and/or without explaining that the book is not proofed?  Highly unethical and immoral even when no contract explicitly says it’s illegal.

After, and with explanations as to what an ACR is?  Pshaw.  That’s worse than complaining about the strips I take home.

Golly, sounds like everyone’s getting their knickers in a twist over this one.

I’ll delurk with just one observation:

“For people who think authors should just smile politely and ignore this asshat behavior (like good little girls).  How about this - how about you go to work and bust your ass for months.  Then your boss lets other companies get a peek at your work.  Well, some of those other companies grab the work and sell slices of it on the sly for their own profit?  You gonna be okay with that?  Sit back and smile politely?  Not give a shit?  I don’t think so.”

Actually, anything I produce for work belongs to the company (in my case, a school district). I can say absolutely nothing about what is done with teaching units, lesson plans, or testing instruments I develop. The district could bundle up the curriculum I’ve spent five years honing, and sell it, and I’d have no say in the matter, and no financial return, either. I’m pretty sure that applies to most other career fields as well. And it has nothing to do with being a “good little girl.” It’s just the way the profession works, so I suck it up and do my job.

What strikes me as distasteful about the ARC situation is the prepublication release. Other than that, once something has been given away, it’s no longer yours to control. It may be unethical to sell the copies before publication of the actual book, but unless there’s a contract stipulating that the reviewer/bookstore/whatever won’t dispose of them before publication, there doesn’t seem to be any illegality involved.

Okay. When an author only has 30 ARCs out there, I can definitely see the upset. And I personally know of some publishers to remain unnamed whose authors actually pay for their own ARCs, which I think is appalling. And I can see why I’d be less upset about all this than those people.

BUT… that SAID… it’s time to take a breath.

“Not for resale” is not a gentleman’s agreement. It’s legal language. It’s just not something you’re likely to get prosecuted for, because it’s not worth it, and hence people think it’s “less” illegal. The reason movies count for more is because movies make money, and hence, their lawyers are bigger and scarier. The book business doesn’t make the kind of money that movies make, and so we’ll never have that kind of power. End of story.

ARCs on eBay don’t even come close to threatening our true bottom line. Six ARCs bought before the book comes out represent six readers who love you enough to do so, and there’s a good point made that they’ll probably buy the regular edition, too. They’re collecting. You. And while the person selling the ARC gets money on that sale to which they are not entitled and that is Wrong, your reader gets you. And that’s a good thing.

Look, none of us writers are in this for the money. Hour for hour, I could make more money stocking shelves at Walmart. We do this because we love it and because we are passionate about what we do. If you stop reading PC because she feels strongly about this issue, then you lose, because PC is amazing. And she is amazing because she has passion, because she’s the kind of person who will stand up and give her opinion, damn the consequences. I may kinda disagree on this issue - in that I think it’s not worth it, not that I think she’s necessarily wrong - but still. Damn. If I had someone doing me wrong, that’s the girl I’d want in my corner, hands down.

I can see how some readers might feel disrespected by the way she expressed herself, but I totally get it. She meant no disrespect. She’s just got a lion’s roar. Sometimes, when we really care about something, we all get a lion’s roar. And her quotes, while certainly posted with her permission, were originally part of a private e-mail (or at least that’s my understanding.) How many of us haven’t gotten a little overexuberant in a private exchange? Anyone? Beuhler?

Readers, trust me, no one loves you more than the authors you love. You are everything to us, and I think I safely speak for all authors here when I say you are deeply treasured.

re: Jane’s comment about series characters and copyright

What’s that thing about Dara Joy and her characters of the Matrix universe, then? Or will I get branded “YAUR” [Yet Another Uneducated Reader] on my forehead here, too? :D

“First - for those of you who got your panties all in a huff about my one sentence about fans who lurve us ripping us off.  Ladies, grow a sense of humor.  That was called sarcasm and definitely not meant to be taken literally.  It was an “I don’t believe that for one minute” comment.”

PC Cast, you seem to have a track record of saying one thing, pissing some people off, and then make a claim that you were misunderstood because it was actually written with sarcasm/humour.

That card is getting a tad overworn. Try another excuse or better yet, write well enough to ensure that you won’t get “misunderstood” again because if you use it one more time, I will finally believe that you do think that readers are a bunch of dumb creatures; an implication that appeared in your comments quite oft and for a while.

I’m all for opinionated authors - love them madly, in fact - but I’m not that much a fan of backpedallers.  But, don’t worry, PC, I will still buy your books. I might not be a “fan” of you, but I do like your previous books.  Thank you, however, for agreeing to have your rant reproduced here at SBs. My hat’s off to you on that.

Just a note on the law here.  Something isn’t slightly illegal. It is against the law or it isn’t.  It isn’t like horseshoes. 

In regards to the movie issue, the federal law that prohibits copying encompasses all copyrighted works regardless of medium.  This issue of the sale of ARCs is not a republication or recopying issue.  The sale of a copy is clearly wrong and illegal and punishable by alot of fines and even imprisonment.  (ie the selling of PDF versions of books. wrong. wrong. wrong.)

It is the sale of a promotional piece which is in question.  I understand that movies/DVDs which are provided to reviewers are accompanied by contracts which bind the reviewers to a certain conduct of behavior.  It is the violation of this agreement that is legally enforceable.  My point in the original post was that publishers and authors aren’t doing enough to protect themselves - get a contract with the reviewers akin to somethin like Ann described and you have a legal leg to stand on.

In the tort law, the only defense to a defamatory statement is the truth.  If the sale of an ARC is not illegal (as conceded by Ms. Cast), a person cannot be “guilty” of theft. That’s the truth.  If you want to say that the sale of ARCs is like stealing money, you are probably safe.  But calling someone an outright thief?  That’s actually a violation of a law.

Why are you picking on reviewers? Most of your ARCs don’t go to reviewers. I worked in various BIG bookselling chains for years and can tell you we got a visit 4 times a year from our Random House rep who came in with a box of books that the BOOKSELLERS grabbed up.  We also got roughly 5-10 ARCs a week. The children’s clerk at the last place gave out HP#3 and #4 to customers to read months before the book came out. Eldest and the teen Patterson ended up at the used bookseller down the street more than a week before they came out.  Half of our anime displays ended up on ebay so it wouldn’t surprise me if some of my fellow booksellers sold their ARCs. If you can find someone out there willing to pay to read an uncorrected proof of Kim Harrison’s new book, why not take their money?  You’d rather see them in the trash?

If someone requests and ARC and then sells it? She’s a skunk and deserves to be cast out of society forever.

But most ARCs are just sent out to the usual suspects, unsolicited. In that case, I say they’re gifts and recipients can do what they want with gifts.

I even have made and paid out of my pocket for ARCs and I believe this to be true.

Kate, who’s found my books, personally autographed, on ebay. Gah.

I have to agree it is shitty.  For one I would have loved a copy of the ARC to review as I am sure a few other reviewers would have.

Instead someone made a profit for doing nothing.

I think it is all sorts of shades of wrong for a reviewer or even a reader who has won a copy to sell an ARC before the book is released.  After it is released I still think it is shitty but I am more eh about it.

To me, why buy it when you can spend less for the book itself.  I buy lots of used books.  So if I am going to spend cover or over for a book, I want the author to get their piece.

But I also think anyone spending 30 bucks on a book will buy it as well.  Most of the ARC’s I have are signed to me and I can’t imagine selling them.  I would let a friend borrow an ARC and am apart of a trade group I would freely give an ARC too I didn’t want to keep.  At the same time I can’t see selling OOP books and trade them to readers who want to read them because they love books.

As for the rant, yeah I can see why some readers would get pissed about it.  But really I didn’t, which may be because I agree.

Maili stole must of my thunder :D   especially her comments about Dara Joy’s problems and backpedallers.

I couldn’t care less if you rant and rave, curse, scream, yell or sue the people who are selling your ARCs on Ebay, but you are also attacking your biggest fans, those so desperate that they are willing to shell out money for a book that hasn’t yet been released.  Anyone buying these books are rabid fangirls and I can’t believe I’m defending these idiots.

Okay, so here’s the point that we’re trying to get out there to readers: WHEN YOU BUY AN ARC YOU’RE RIPPING THE AUTHOR THE FUCK OFF.

Anyway.  It makes me mad.  So fans who lurve us pay big money to rip us off?

That was sarcasm, thanks for pointing that out, it certainly sounded like one pissed off author to me.

How much money are you really talking about?  Maybe someone out there can do the math.

You have every right to go after the “asshair sellers” and being annoyed at the readers who buy them.  But, you can’t see that by venting at the “fans who lurve us” you risk alienating your existing readers and your future readers.  Is a handful of dollars really worth it?

Ok, here I come, late into the fray.

For firstly: Yes, it sucks ass these people are making shitloads of cash off the ARCs when the authors make nothing from the sale. It also sucks ass for them that I resell books I bought that I didn’t like and buy books by authors I’m not familiar with at my local used bookstore, and the author makes nothing off those sales, either. So is it just the ARC resales or second hand bookstores that should be abolished because of no profit for the author? I also use my local library: should it be abolished because the author makes no profit when I read their book? What happens if I borrow one from my friend—should my friend and I be prosecuted because the author loses the royalties from a book I probably wouldn’t have bothered to read without the insistence of a friend?

For secondly: I’ve bought ARCs before. Then, after reading them, I go out and buy the book—generally in hardback, the day they go on sale—and the author makes money off me anyway on a book I’ve already read but just can’t live without. BECAUSE I DON’T BUY ARCS AT RANDOM. Only for authors I really, truly, madly, deeply love. They’re too expensive, otherwise.

For thirdly: I use what I’ve read in the ARC, and my enthusiasm for that author, to encourage others to read that author, generally encouraging them to buy the book in hardback.

NOT ONLY does the author profit from me, but s/he profits from my friends, the ones I use the ARC to lure into the readership. Who sucks ass in the scenario? The person who got the ARC for free, then resold it at grotesque profit and probably shipped it in the cheapest fashion available (Book Rate—aka, Slow Ass Boat Through China, Around To Majorca, Then On To You, If You’re Lucky) because even though they’re making a 100% profit on the ARC they can’t be bothered to spend $1 more to ship it first class mail. And if they break their agreement to write a review for the author, they doubly suck, because that’s what they owe the publisher/author for the privelege of getting to read the book early.

It sounds as if this person doesn’t know who buys their ARCs or why or what go on to do, ie, buy the actual book. Because if you’ve ever read an ARC, you know how annoying it can be. Not fully edited or typeset, gaps, misspellings and things that get changed later on before the hardback is actually printed…. Only a great fool or a great fan would buy an ARC.

DianaW said everything I was going to say, only better. So re-read her 8:41 PM post like it just echoed through the room.

PS—I’ve never bought a romance ARC, either, and they weren’t no $35 bucks. I’ve dropped $150 for a Douglas Preston ARC, then I dropped a further $30 for the hardback when it came out. I did get gummy dinos and a bookmark with the ARC, too (the promo items that came with the ARC) and I told Mr. Preston about the whole thing. He just asked if the gummies still tasted good. :-) I fully intend to get the paperback of the same book when it comes out. And if I could find an ARC of RELIC anywhere on earth, I’d mortgage my mother to get hold of it. I should just get “Rabid Fan-Gurl” tatooed on my ass and call it done.

I’m a pervy book fancier, that’s my only excuse.

[Dusting off my hands]

There. I have blogged the Last Word on the subject. At my blog. And because I have used a lot of bold and even red letters, and invoked the gods of writing. I’m clearly correct on this issue.

Phew, what a relief for all of us, eh?

Probably the best that authors can hope for is to track down the reviewers selling ARCs and get them taken off the publisher’s list of recipients.  That would be a small victory.

I really doubt (and I’m sure PC would agree) that readers are out to screw the authors. 
Most consumers still don’t equate piracy with theft.  If it’s in front of them, they’re going to take it, whether it’s an ARC or a music file or a ripped DVD, and not think any harm is being done to the artist(s) they love.  They’re wrong, and that’s why education is important.

However, I’m slightly on the libertarian end of things here, thinking that more exposure is better, even if it comes at the expense of a small amount of royalties.  A copy of my book is doing me no good sitting on someone’s shelf at home.  Let it be borrowed, resold, donated to a library, whatever, as long as people are reading it and talking about it. In the long run, it’ll expand readership.

But when an ARC says NOT FOR RESALE, well duh.  There’s no excuse.  Publishers compose and send ARCs at great expense for a purpose.  Lining the pockets of unscrupulous reviewers isn’t the purpose, last I checked.

One of the things I love so much about this site is that we all get to bat around our opinions.  It’s so nice to see a popular site where everyone doesn’t feel they have to agree or tippy-toe around.  Smart women with strong opinions = fabulous.

Thank you, Lani.  Your post was right on.  And, yes, my original rant was cut and pasted from a private email from me to Sarah.  I’m cool with Sarah posting it, but had I known she was going to I can tell you I would have cleaned it up and made the focus of my anger more easily identifiable – the people who callously profit from an author’s work without even bothering to review said work. 

I am absolutely not disdainful of my readers, quite the opposite. 

And my “agenda” in bringing the ARC issue up at all is that I think it’s unethical to profit from the sale of them.  But Jeri said that way better than I. 

An interesting sidebar to all of this:  A fan bought a copy of a Luna book from an Amazon seller.  She received the book and was shocked to see it was an ARC.  She notified Amazon and Luna.  Luna was very interested in this and a senior editor there told me that they are attempting to track the ARC leak to a specific reviewer who will be taken off their ARC list.  Huh.

I say this is tackier even than selling ARCs:

At some bigger conferences there are books on the chairs during meals—gifts for attendees. And then there is the signing times sponsored by publishers. You pick up your free copy of the book, wait in line and then the author signs it for you.

I watched a fellow author (unpubbed back then who has since then hit best selling lists) gather up those free books on the chairs when no one sat down at the table . . .and then, later, gather up some of the freebie books in the signing sessions—without bothering to get them signed. 

When I asked her what she was going to do with them, she said sell ‘em on ebay.

Now that is tacky. I wonder if she still does that and how she would feel if anyone did that with her books.

This whole debate has got me wondering how authors feel about their OOP books being sold for way above sticker price on eBay, Amazon, ABE books, at local bookstores, etc.—or even the sale of used books, period.

While I’m not a big fan of ARC’s, I do buy used, and I have paid an exhorbitant amount for several OOP books (i.e. Chase’s The Lion’s Daughter way before it was re-released—almost 20 bucks for that one, I think).  In regard to my used book buys, I try to balance it out with new books from the same author, often trying out the author with a used copy and then going new in the future if I like what I read.  I try to buy used to support authors I want to see around for a while.  In one case I have taken a sworn oath never to buy a particular author’s books new EVER AGAIN, but this is an extreme case, and my curiosity in even reading them at all has nearly petered out.  I really hate feeling ambivalent about buying used, though, because it does allow me to buy way more books and to try many more new authors.

On some level, though, I can’t help but feel that—given the way the arguments against ARCs have proceeded here—there is an implied similarity for some authors between selling ARC’s and re-selling books, especially above their sticker price.  If this is strictly an “ethics of profit” argument, is the sole difference that ARC’s are stamped NFS and pre-published?  Or is the issue one of others besides the author profiting from the sale of books?  In other words, if the sale of used books looks more like the sale of ARCs to authors, then what’s the upshot of that?  And if the sale of ARCs is easily distinguished as different, what, essentially, is the difference?  What about people who sell ARCs after the book itself has been released, especially if they sell them for what any used book might likely cost?  Different, the same, a hybrid case?  I know that some people will see the differences as crystal clear, but I am sensing an undertone that makes me feel like it might not be for some authors.

I would LOVE to be an official ARC reader.  Can I get on the list if I promise to read them promptly, and never sell one?  Can I, can I, please??

Okay, so here’s the point that we’re trying to get out there to readers: WHEN YOU BUY AN ARC YOU’RE RIPPING THE AUTHOR THE FUCK OFF.

Anyway.  It makes me mad.  So fans who lurve us pay big money to rip us off?

Wow, holy crap.  I’m really glad I read this whole thread before making a comment cause I got a chance to cool down.  I too make big ranty rants which I regret, and get taken the wrong way etc,  but damn that is the way the cookie crumbles if you’re gonna rant. 

That was straight up an attack on fans, and I feel even more insulted at the implication that we can’t understand some apparently very finely honed sarcasm.  Just say sorry, I didn’t mean it that way, I was ranting and pissed, not I’m sorry you didn’t understand my true meaning cause you just don’t get my uber sarcasm skillz.

Fantastic author, rant personality rather like mine, let that be a lesson to me if I ever get published to keep my rants to myself.

1) The children’s clerk at the last place gave out HP#3 and #4 to customers to read months before the book came out.

I call bullsh!t on that one.

2) tracking down ‘rogue reviewers’:  not gonna happen.  At the BEA they give out ARCs like candy.  And the long-term financial loss from damaging the publisher’s relationship to the reviewer would be much greater than the $4.00 they are losing from the sale of the ARC to an end-customer.

3) In my line of work I’ll often get a crate of books for free from a publisher.  These are not ARC copies, but final print run.  Say I take one of these copies and give it to a friend.  Say the friend sells it on ebay.  Is that OK?  Worse than selling an ARC?  Better than selling an ARC?  The result is the same - no money goes to the author.

4) I used to volunteer at a Friends of the Library bookstore.  ARCs would come through our hands.  We sold them like any other used book, for about fifty cents.  Is that OK?  Worse than selling on Ebay?  Better?

5) Say I’m a reviewer and I get 10 ARCs a week.  I read some of them, not others, review the ones I like.  My home is getting flooded with poorly-bound books.  None of my friends want my free books anymore.  What should I do?  Thow the books in the recycling?  But I can’t - my local recycling agency won’t take bound paper.  Is it OK for me to throw it in the trash?  Is it OK for me to donate it to the library?  Is it OK for me to sell it on Ebay?

6) Do you get mad about someone selling a first edition of your work on Ebay for more than cover price?  If the book is still in print, are you getting ripped off?

Disclaimer:  I don’t sell on Ebay, I’m not a reviewer, and none of these questions are rhetorical.

While I can see the problem with selling ARCs on eBay for exorbitant prices, what do you folks think about giving them to used bookstores or, as has been mentioned above, having libraries sell them later?

I can’t imagine a reviewer should feel compelled to keep every single ARC s/he receives, and I agree that making a profit from it is definitely unethical, but…should s/he just toss it in the trash?

I purchased an ARC of one of my favorite books from a used bookstore a few years back. Like many a rabid bibliophile, I enjoy having several copies of books I love. I’m quite certain the author in question neither knows nor cares that this tiny bookstore in a tiny town in PA sold an ARC six years after her book came out. But maybe I’m wrong.

Thoughts?

I don’t normally have that much of a problem with reviewers selling ARCs, but recently my husband and I experienced a really, really annoying situation: ARCs of his latest novel showed up for sale on Ebay a whopping month before we ever got any actual authors’ copies from the publisher.  Yes, it was combination of slow publisher and greedy reviewers both, but you shouldn’t have to go to Ebay to buy your first copy of your own darned book.

I personally don’t care if booksellers are handing out ARCs to readers or libraries. I think that’s cool and better than throwing them away unread. 

I have some ARCs myself of a couple of historical romances that I picked up at a garage sale some years ago. I loved the stories and they introduced me to a couple of great authors I might have missed.

My main problem was the idea of someone selling them, especially before the book comes out.

Am I the only one or are you guys also thinking, “HOLY CRAP did this post EVER wind up with a ton of comments!!!!!” LOL

—Cynthia Williams

(This comment is both late and rather disjointed; my apologies in advance)

I am uncertain on the legality issue myself, but I believe it is unethical for a reviewer to sell what is essentially promotional material—and promotional material clearly marked as “not for sale” to boot. Whether such an action is outright theft or not, it’s still undefensible from an ethical point of view.

Like those samples of new fragrances at the perfume counters at big department stores, ARCs are not printed to be sold. It is particularly galling, as a reader, to see an ARC for a long-awaited book on eBay a month before the release date (but that is probably just me,though).

[Then again, I don’t think publishers print and bind books to have them change hands a few dozen times through used book stores and garage/yard sales, yet they do; yet in the end, I believe that used book sales help the authors by exposing their work to a wider audience, just as word of mouth does.]

PS I am with mapletree7 on the Harry Potter books suppossedly sold ‘months’ before the release date: utter BS

Ack!!! A million apologies!

That wasn’t ‘Harry Potter books “sold” months before the release date’ but ‘available to customers’—I’m vewwwy vewwwy sowwwy.

On the topic of whether or not a writer can move her setting/characters to another publisher, it depends on her contract. Some contracts state that the publisher has right of first refusal on the author’s next novel that features any characters and/or plot elements from works the publisher has already purchased from the author. Sometimes, the language is even more sweeping, which is what is rumored to have happened in the Dara Joy situation.

Hey, girls. Just to add a bit of clarity, this comes direct from the legal department at my publisher:

“yes, it is illegal to sell these - they are made available only to specific reviewers.  These almost always have a statement on the front of the ms or ARC stating that it is NOT FOR SALE. We also do try to track down any such offerings on ebay and make them stop.”

What makes people think it’s not technically illegal is that no one is ever prosecuted for it. But, with my publisher at least, it seems that might be changing.

Now, I have officially said everything I have to say on the matter.

and I agree that making a profit from it is definitely unethical, but…should s/he just toss it in the trash?

As I type this, I’m surrounded by at least 200 arcs I received due to a previous job.  And they sit and they sit and they sit.  I’ve never sold one on eBay.  I have occasionally loaned some to my neighbor, but she always gives them back, dammit.  I asked once what I should do with them and was told pretty much throw them away.

But they’re books!  They don’t have shiny covers and the still uncorrected errors range from a typo to utterly unreadable, but…they’re still books.  So I don’t sell them, I can’t bring myself to throw them away, nor use them as kindling in the campfire so here they still sit. I even tried to donate them to the women’s prison, but they didn’t return my calls. The literacy program didn’t want them because they’re romance.

So one horrible option for disposing of arcs is to let them pile up until they fall over on your cat. *g*

And, just because I’m here, but I don’t really care one way or the other—-I seem to recall Suzanne Brockmann being asked about her TDD SEALS and her single title SEALS doing a joint mission and she said no because they were two different publishers.  My guess would be that that’s a contract by contract item that some authors have and some don’t.

What makes people think it’s not technically illegal is that no one is ever prosecuted for it

No, what makes people think that it’s not illegal is that it’s a contract subject to contract law, not a law itself.  Contracts aren’t enforced the way laws are - it’s the responsibility of the contract signers to report violations to the police.  Otherwise the police can’t do jack shit.  It’s closer to trademark violations than burglary - it’s only illegal if one of the parties makes a stink about it.  I’m not trying to say that it isn’t illegal until one party raises a fuss, I’m just saying the law doesn’t get involved until it’s brought to their attention by a signee.

The children’s clerk at the last place gave out HP#3 and #4 to customers to read months before the book came out. 
I call bullsh!t on that one.

Oh, no, no, no.  This happens all the time.  We get customers coming in and asking for such and such, and when we tell them we can’t sell it until such and such date, they almost always say “but Wal-Mart is selling it.”  Well, good for Wal-Mart, but we don’t break our promise to publishers that we won’t sell certain books before certain dates.  Now, I’d be skeptical if it was HP 5 or 6, but even with #6 there were some slip-ups.

BTW - t’s the publishers we report such violations to, not the police.  Unlike The copyright notices on movies that say to contact the FBI.

I wanted to post about this subject because I have a book review site (butterflybooks), where I’ve reviewed ARCs and books I’ve purchased. I am also a member of the media, though freelance at this point. When I was on staff at a newspaper in my area, I got free copies of books for review all the time, not just from publishers but from the local bookstore owner, who knew I was a bibliophile and that I couldn’t afford all the books I wanted to read by my favorite authors. So he’d give me ARCs from his gigantic collection whenever I wanted some new reading material. Then there are the books, crateloads of them, that my husband brought home from his various jobs over the years at all of the major radio stations in Seattle and one TV station. The radio stations were always trying to get rid of the tons of review copies they were sent, though not one of those stations had any shows that did book reviews. The TV station he worked for just threw all the review copies of books and CDs and DVDS in the trash. That’s right, in a BIG DUMPSTER. So did the radio stations, by the way, when my husband wasn’t quick enough to grab the books before the cleaning teams threw them out.  So those authors who are all peeved about their ARCs being sold, would you rather that they were filling out the local landfill? My husband, being the kind soul he is, spent many hours dumpster diving and rescuing ARCs and review copies and bringing them home, where he’d sell them on Amazon or Ebay after they came out. Because working in the media pays crap, we really needed that extra money, which helped pay for food, housing, medication for Crohns Disease, etc. 98 percent of the places my husband has worked (and all the places I’ve worked) haven’t had health insurance for employees, so my prescriptions for Crohns treatment cost us over $200 a month. For awhile, my husband worked 2 jobs in the media to try and make ends meet. I find it hard to believe that people would deny him the right to sell books, CDs and DVDs that he pulled out of a dumpster on Amazon or Ebay. I have given away ARCs to friends to read, and I’ve donated some ARCs of review books I did NOT like to the library, because they sell them and use the money to purchase books for public use. I see nothing wrong with that, either. I am not a big romance reader, I read many different genre, and I respect books and have a massive collection of them in my home. I’ve written more than 100 articles on books and authors for the newspaper I worked for from 1997-2005. I have made my living writing (albiet non fiction) for the past 21 years. So I am not unsympathetic to authors, I just don’t really see a huge problem here. I think the people that buy the ARCs will buy a real copy of the book when it comes out, and I think that the good word of mouth that comes from ARCs can only help an author. And I agree with those who say f-word-filled rants turn off readers. I also think that as writers who love words and deal with them daily, cursing up a rant is just a sign of mental laziness. There are better ways to say things than to swear. That doesn’t mean that I never resort to laziness myself, because I do, but I try to find better words. Anyway, that’s my opinion for what its worth.

I review books for two different websites, and when I don’t want to keep an ARC I donate it to the local library book sale. 

The author doesn’t profit, but neither do I.  The money goes into the library supplemental funds to buy more books, and the books are oftentimes donated to nursing homes, homeless shelters, and other institutions that want reading material but don’t have enough budgeted for it.

I agree with all the authors who say the reviewers shouldn’t be selling the ARCs, but I figure if a non-profit is benefiting, and I don’t donate until after the book is out on sale, then I can sleep guilt free at night.

I love libraries and support them in any way I can, so yes, to whoever raised the subject: I would encourage reviewers with ARCs they don’t want to donate them to the library, and the library can sell them. Everybody wins.

As far as that radio station throwing away cds and dvds and arcs: what, they never heard of Goodwill? Public library donations? A dozen different non profits would come pick that material up and put it to good use. Are they lazy, or uninformed, or what?

I have a neighbor who is eligible to vote when the Emmys come around. He gets tons of dvds in the mail, whole television series, tv movies, specials, you name it. He watches a few of these, keeps one or two, and sends all the rest over to the AIDS hospice. Now, that’s a reasonable use of materials he doesn’t want or need.

I am lucky enough to get some first drafts as well as ARCS from some kick ass authors!  I have never passed one on without permission from the author.

AND when it comes out in print, I buy it.  If the author thinks enough of me to let me read their work before it is published, then I should think enough of them to buy the books once they are out!  JMO!

tangent time:

I wonder what Harriet Klaussner does with her huge stacks of ARCs and books. She’s still on almost every ARC auto-send list I know of. . .Her house must be a scary place.

OK, I have one question here: do reviewers, in general, get paid to write book reviews?

Many of those reviewers [print and online]  I know, the only “payments” they get are those books they are expected to review.

If they did their jobs reviewing those ARCs, is it still a “crime” for them to sell ARCs? Knowing that they did their job reviewing those books, attracting readers’ attention? Is it still wrong of them to sell something that they “earned”?

I’ve wondered about that sometimes. :)

I pitched a fit about this in an essay I wrote for Publishers Weekly last August. One-hundred-and-seventy-two- thousand books were published in 2005. Count ‘em! The same core group of reviewers gets these books to review. What in the world are they supposed to do with all these books? What would you do? (Marketing departments of publishing companies all use the same online list providers, like Bacon’s, to determine who gets what ARC. I know because I was the marketing director, special sales, at B&N Books. I studied these lists.) These “targeted” recipients also include an enormous number of people addressed as “Book Reviewer.” Who knows who gets those books? It’s pretty clear what they do with them.

Until the publishing industry changes the way it does business (don’t hold your breath), you will continue to see a thriving online cottage industry of new and used books undermining retail sales. (You didn’t think the system was designed to make YOU money, did you?)

Lynne W. Scanlon
AKA The Wicked Witch of Publishing

This actually happens to me all the time.  A friend will be all, “Hey, an ARC of Undead and Unretrnable is on sale at Ebay for $130.”  And I’ll be all, Good freakin’ Lord, I can’t think of a single book I’d buy for $130.

I always mention these things to my editor, who immediately begins to froth.  Then she has to ask me to cut and paste the Ebay page and send it to her.  Always.  The reason?  Berkley computers aren’t allowed to go to Ebay.  Hmmm.  Is it possible the sellers of ARCs know this?  I assume they assume there’s no way they’ll get caught because Berkley can’t find them.  Duh…we tattle!  I’d rat out someone selling ARCs in half a minute if I could get my big, ham-handed mitts on them.  But I usually just hand it over to my editor and agent and make them deal with it.  (Believe it or not, I’m pretty non-confrontational.)

Anyway, I was pissed about it the first ten times it happened to me, but now I’m getting numbed…like my brain’s been coated with Preperation H.  My editor still gets pretty mad, though, and tries to stop it.  Lawyers occasionally get involved (yes, Virginia, it is illegal).  As do my fellow authors, in case you didn’t know.  :-)

The anger and feeling of being ripped off is understandable, but unfortunately, it’s one of those “pick your battles” things.

OK, I have one question here: do reviewers, in general, get paid to write book reviews?

I don’t, that’s for sure. About 90% of what I read and review comes out of my own pocket.

That’s why I’m poor. Books are like crack to me. Except I won’t end up looking like Whitney Houston. I hope.

I don’t get paid to do reviews, nor do I know anyone who does, unless she works for a magazine like Romantic Times.

Holy friggin’ interesting discussion, Batman.

As a reviewer, I think that it is completely shitty to profit off selling an ARC. Anytime. To anyone. Anywhere. It doesn’t matter if you sell it in a garage sale or to the Shelter for Homeless Underwater Basket Weavers with Dew Rags and Clubfeet…if you profit from it, it’s morally and ethically wrong, IMHO.

And fucktarded folks who sell ARCs on E-bay (especially the unreleased ones) should be kicked in the nards/other tender parts with steel-toed boots. Repeatedly.

I review for an online site and I treasure my print ARCs. Why? It’s an issue of trust. Even if I think the book is entirely lacking in any (or every) way, I’ve been entrusted with getting the book in advance for the purpose of reviewing it. I don’t make any money off doing my reviews (and I’ve reviewed over 320 books in my time at FAR), but free books are almost as good as money.

If the ARC is by one of the authors I collect or by a new author I love (like PC Cast, who I got turned on to by reading an ARC of hers that I reviewed and loved), I’ll buy the book in print as well.

Taking advantage of free ARCs by making a profit off them is like screwing without kissing…it just ain’t right.

And if you think you’re pissed, PC, think of how it would feel to be Nora Roberts/JD Robb and have the huge secret of the sex of Mavis’ baby coming out in Born in Death this fall and ALREADY seeing frigging ARCs of it on Ebay. I mean, she’s 25 books into that series and people just suck to sell a book early, let alone a book with that kind of following. It’s not about money; methinks La Nora’s got plenty. It’s about people profiting unjustly off something they got for free…which sucks a stinky dick.

What part of “Not for Resale” needs clarification? It’s a sad state of affairs when assholios take advantage.

I’ve found the best solution is to pass ARCs on.  I’ve got plenty of people I know who are thrilled to receive them as a surprise gift—and it’s served me well with the admins of various directors and VPs over the years.

:coolmad: I’m just a reader who has been lucky enough to win a few ARC’s of my favorite author. Until recently, I had no idea anyone was trying to sell ARC’s on E-Bay. I think it is highly unfair to sell them when it is clearly stated that they are NOT for re-sale. To do so is just plain dishonorable. I know it’s old fashioned of me, but where I come from, honor still counts.

On the issue of legality, lawyers will send out cease and desist letters even if they are not enforceable.  Simply because they take action (and the action seems to be removing a reviewer from the ARC list), doesn’t mean that it is illegal.  I can’t say enough that simply putting something on the cover doesn’t make it so.  You could put Not For Resale on every book but the First Sale Doctrine protects the rights of purchasers to resell it.  I hate when the term “illegality” is bandied about so loosely. 

Further, it is apparent from this thread that ARCs (and Ms. Cast, they say Advanced READER’s Copy/Editions on many, many books. Not REVIEW), are not selectively sent to certain reviewers.  They are sent willy nilly to all kinds of people who have no desire to read them, let alone review them. 

Why aren’t you mad at the publishers for the indiscriminate method of distribution?  Why aren’t you ranting and raving about the fact that the pubs aren’t doing a better job of direct marketing?  Seems to me that if you want to make a real change in the ARC business, you want to clean your own house (ie the publishing house).

I’m the 100th poster. :)

I always wondered what reviewers did with all the books.  I have mixed feelings on the subject.  Nothing that hasn’t already been said here.

But I was at a conference over the weekend and talked with a self-published friend.  He bought around 80 copies of his big hardback, included a CD and sent them out to reviewers.  He spent a lot of his own money and it hurt him to see those books showing up in the used sales at Amazon and on Ebay.  They have the CD so he knows how they got them.

I don’t see a way to stop this from happening tho.  As MaryJanice said, we might have to let ourselves get numb to the idea.

Ooh, I got the 100th comment.  Do I win a prize?

Why aren’t you ranting and raving about the fact that the pubs aren’t doing a better job of direct marketing?  Seems to me that if you want to make a real change in the ARC business, you want to clean your own house (ie the publishing house).

Most publishers won’t even tell authors where the ARCs are sent; if we want to send our own, we give our editors a list, and they tell us which ones not to send it to to avoid duplicating efforts.

Publishers hoard promo/marketing information from authors like they were state secrets.  And according to MJ Rose, often when they give us information, it’s a lie.

Dunno if that counts as a rant, but it’s reality.  Sorry, I mean, it’s fucking reality.  There, now it’s a rant.

This is nowt to do with this topic, really, but it’s a public apology to PC Cast. In this thread, I took her to task over using the “You don’t get it! It was just sarcasm/humour!” card too many times, but a reader’s comment at one blog made me realise that I may have confused PC with MaryJanice Davidson who used this card as well. Which is why I mistakenly thought PC Cast used the card before. So, I hope you’ll accept my apology, PC. No hard feelings if you don’t. :)

I know I could email her this, but I think it’s fair to admit my cock-up in public, so that readers will take my earlier response to PC in this thread with a

pinch

handful of salt.

I wonder what Harriet Klaussner does with her huge stacks of ARCs and books. She’s still on almost every ARC auto-send list I know of. . .Her house must be a scary place.

You know that house built out of old soda bottles? Harriet’s house is just like that but entirely of ARCs. They’re like shiny bricks of man-titty.

It and her unique lacquered “Savage” Welsh dresser (lovingly hand-carved with an authentic tomahawk out of romances featuring heroes from every Native American tribe) are two of the wonders of the modern world.

I can’t say enough that simply putting something on the cover doesn’t make it so.

Hear, hear!

The illegality comes in the wording of the contract - and there may or may not be an explicit contract between the publisher and the people they give acr’s to.

I understand thinking that it’s immoral, and that it’s not fair to the authors - especially when they are sold before the release date, but I find people’s lack of understanding about their own right’s as consumers to be troubling.  Publisher’s don’t have our best interests in mind anymore than they are concerned about the author’s.  If author’s want to stand up for their own rights and make people follow the contracts they’ve agreed to, they have my full support.  But I also think they ought to be honest about what their readers right’s are as consumers.  Simply saying “it’s illegal” without being clear about what makes it illegal only creates more confusion about a topic that many people have very little information about to begin with.  Many arguments here - from authors and fans - have suggested, or even outright stated, that the illegality comes with the “intellectual property rights” or that it’s always illegal the way speeding is, and that just isn’t so.

right’s

ahem - that should be “rights”

No, I can’t spell.

Nope, still can’t see how selling an ARC post-publication is more wrong than selling any other used copy (and I have a personally autographed math textbook I’d love to unload…long story, odious author).  I don’t think selling used books is wrong.  I’m also in favor of libraries.

And yes, I’m aware that fiction writing doesn’t pay well; I’m also in the position of knowing that everything I produce on the job, including photography and writing, is automatically public domain, credited to my federal agency.  So a couple ARC copies on Ebay?  Not really reason to castigate loyal readers, even if it is “sarcastic” (which I’m not sure I buy).

“which I’m not sure I buy”

Me neither.

You can castigate the SBs for putting it up and say you would have edited it if you’d known it was gonna be up there for public consumption all you want, but obviously the sentiment is still there in your mind. Does that make it better?

Ah see? The effin readers aren’t as stupid as you think.

Actually, they are.  Because, if you’ll read a few more e-mails down, you’ll see that although I very deliberately kept mum on the subject, people assumed PC’s rant was mine.  “Oh, a writer isn’t rolling over and taking it up the ass like they’re supposed to…that rotten MaryJanice!” 

So either the effen readers a) can’t effen read, or b) shouldn’t be allowed to post while learning to read, or c) both.

Either way, PC has every right to be irritated, though I admit to being more sanguine on the topic than she is.  What’s not right is to kick her in the teeth (repeatedly), mix her up with another author (duh!  sig lines much?), then pretend it’s her fault and that she thinks the effen readers are stupid.

So phhhhbbbbbtttttt.

Originally posted by MaryJanice:
  “Oh, a writer isn’t rolling over and taking it up the ass like they’re supposed to…that rotten MaryJanice!”

Bwahahhahahahahahahaha!

I’m adding this to my list of “Reasons NOT to Submit My WIP”.

I HATE it up the ass. HATE. IT.

Wow.  It only took MJD four days to come up with a witty remark.  Someone must be sure of her position on the NYT list.

Because, if you’ll read a few more e-mails down, you’ll see that although I very deliberately kept mum on the subject, people assumed PC’s rant was mine. [snipped the rest of the response]

Oh, man. This is turning into a ugly little spat, no thanks to you, Miss Bring It On. This thread was dying down and so I don’t quite understand your reason to stir it up again. Anyhow, let’s be clear:

as far as I can see, I’m the only one who confused PC with you [and I have since publicly apologised here in this thread].

If you have a problem with that, say it to my face, instead of being coy by labelling me “people” or, worse, lumping other readers with me, which isn’t fair on the others. If you had done this in the first place, I’d have respected you enough to take it on chin. 

Meanwhile, I have a couple of spare bullets you could use to blast the rest of your foot away because your response isn’t funny, clever or brave.

MJD, you’ll want to reread Maili’s unnecessary apology and the rest of the comment thread, as neither she nor anyone else but you confused “PC’s rant” for yours.

I don’t see why Maili apologized to PC Cast, as PC did backpedal on her comments by claiming it was sarcasm.

In deference to Candy and Sarah, I’m taking the rest of my comments to MJD to my blog.

As a librarian, I have to add my 2 cents to this. In terms of ARCs, at my library at least, we are not allowed to add them to the collection nor sell them. As they are uncorrected, they don’t get put in the collection. As it says, not for re-sale, we do not sell them, even to make money for the library.

A library is a non-profit County government institution and should be following the laws of said County. When a book says, “not for re-sale,” that’s what it means - even at a library.

Other libraries may do things differently, but that’s how we do it at mine.

Maili wrote: “Oh, man. This is turning into a ugly little spat, no thanks to you, Miss Bring It On.”

Was it bad that I laughed my tits off at that?

Nice one chuck!

Apology totally accepted Maili.  Actually you had me scratching my head and wondering what the fuck I’d done and hadn’t realized…(urh, too much wine on my part? say it’s not true!)

And, ladies, I didn’t back peddle - I just clarified my point of view.  I have a smart mouth and I’m strong about my opinions.  I don’t back peddle on them, but I realize people who don’t know me can very easily take me wrong.

MJD - hugs and kisses to ya baby!  I certainly don’t mind being confused for you!  Hey…could our royalty statments get f-ed up sometime, too?!

Not restarting the bitching thread here ladies, just coming out of Deadline Hell and checking in.  My sentiments (god I hope I spelled that right) are stil the same but my wip is sapping my creative juices and my bitch-ness.  I do love this site!

Wowza - I first read this post when there weren’t any comments, right after Sarah put it up, and now look.

A few peeps went feral aye? *g*

Well crap.  I misspelled backpedal.  I really shouldn’t write without spell check.  (Which is probably backpedaling…)

Ok,
I just found out about this thread and thought i would check it out for myself before i made any decisions. And i must say that i am a little dissapointed in the behaviour of everyone. While i see the wrong in selling an ARC i will say i have bought them. Granted it was at a church sale for a dollar where the dollar i spent went right back to the church and to charity so it’s not like anyone was making money on it.

If it’s a book i truly liked and would read over and over again (which is pretty much every book in my extensive collection) I will buy another copy of the book.

But how do you feel then about buying used books. Not everyone can afford to go out and spend $7 on a book they don’t know if they’ll like. And i look at as if i buy a used book i’m more likely to be introduced to the author and then run out and buy the rest of the books as they come out. So the author eventually gets my money. But what about out of print books. Some of those go for just as high if not higher than ARCs. is it wrong to sell a used book that is now out of print. Not everyone puts it on ebay with the intention of making money. most people jsut want to get back what they paid for it so they can then go buy another book they want. And they can’t control the amount the bidder will spend on an item they trully want.

Following the copyright thoughts. I know i would be pissed if i saw someone else selling an original work of art that i had made. But then are museums wrong for buying paintings and sculpture for way more than the work was originally worth just because the artist is now dead and it’s a one of kind piece of art. It’s a double edged issue. How does one truly decide how morally wrong it is. Okay so someone is making money on your book and you aren’t. is that really a reason to make the fans that might have bought a used book once before they knew your work, feel stupid and wrong. I know personally if the author is not nice(not that i want butt kissing and every person is entitled to their own opinion) then i will more than likely not buy another book by that author. And stating your opinion is fine but it shouldn’t be stated in the heat of the moment when you will offend someone with how you state things, and the language you use.

And personally to me i felt that the whole tone of this blog was that author isn’t getting paid for the ARCs that are being sold on ebay and that’s the problem. not the copyright infringement but that the author is not getting their money for their work. If that is all an author can think about then they shouldn’t be writing and doing this. They obviously dont’ enjoy their work enough to put their heart into and gather fans that will say good things about their books.

J, the thing is, for a lot of authors, the book money is the only money they get—once you become a full-time writer and have been one for a couple of years, it can be surprisingly hard to get back into the traditional job market when the freelance gets tight.

And it’s hard to keep perspective when you’re scraping to pay rent or the electricity bill and then see somebody profiting unreasonably off your hard work (for instance, ebayers selling pre-release ARCs to eager fans for inflated prices).

But, re: selling used books: this isn’t a legal problem due to the first sale doctrine.  You could even rent out a novel if you wanted, but the book market is so poor compared to the movie market that nobody bothers.  ARCs are not covered by the first sale doctrine, however.

But, yes, if you want to support an author being able to continue to make a living at writing (and thus continuing to produce books), buy new if you can.  I realize that money’s tight for readers, but it’s tighter than you might imagine for lots of authors, too.

Lucy,
I am an artist. Granted a visual artist and not a written artist. it is just as hard for us to rejoin the working world after trying to make a go at it ourselves. I work basically 9-5 M-F. or so i say. but most days(like today) i can be found at work till 6pm or later trying to finish up jobs so i can make money. I do my work because i love it. But i still have to take jobs i hate. I realize how hard it is to earn a living in the arts. I"m trying to do it myself right now.

And with my reading habits(when not working three or four books a day) It’s hard to be able to support all the authors i want to. However i try as much as possible and i know many other fans do as well..

As to the ARC most people would purchase them for collectibility. coming from a family of collectors i understand that and personally if i ended up with any other ARCs they would go in a place of pride as a collectible book. I wouldn’t get it for resale value most true collectors don’t.
Of course i would also be just as likely to purchase a regular copy for reading so as not to damage the ARC.
J

J—there are a number of reasons why buying an ARC is not the same as buying a used book in a used book store, and why selling an ARC is more damaging to the author. 

A book in a UBS has been purchased once, so the author has been paid for it.  Not so with the ARC.

ARCs often have errors in them, which is why they bear the “Uncorrected Proof” banner.  No author wants books sold before they’ve been proofread and corrected to the max.

An ARC, because it’s an advance copy, may reveal information from a character or series that the author wishes to remain secret until the book is released. Perhaps there’s a huge promotional campaign around, to use a current possibility, the name and sex of Mavis’ baby in the J.D. Robb books.  Reselling the ARC can have a damaging effect on the author’s sales and promotions.

Finally, it’s just not cricket.  The reviewer gets the ARC with the understanding it should not be sold.  Therefore, it should not be sold.  There’s an implicit agreement between the publisher/author and the reviewer when the reviewer accepts the book.  To violate that agreement doesn’t say much about the reviewer.

As I said in an earlier post, I review, and I have a visceral response to the idea of throwing away books I don’t want to keep.  I compromise by waiting until the novel is on sale to the public, and then donate the ARC to a non-profit for their use, either a shelter or the Friends of the Library, who distribute books to various organizations.

I understand the comments on selling ARCs i really do. I also see the collectability of them as well. As a collector. Granted i’m also not going to pay an outrageous amount for a book i want. I’ll eventually come across it else where for a reasonable price.

Onto the comment about typos and errors. I’ve read my fair share of finished books and found typos out the wazoo. Some books it’s almost every other word where as other books it’s once a chapter. Although the more times i read a book the more typos i find. So the ccomment about not wanting ARCs being sold because of typos bother me.

I don’t know maybe the perfectionist in me is speaking but i wouldn’t let something less than perfect leave my studio..
and of course that would also be why i don’t get nearly enough sleep…
J

Okay, I am no doubt in the minority on this, but I have a very different take on the situation.

I see it as a huge win-win for the author. Think of it as dirt cheap PROMO! I mean seriously, if someone is willing to bid on your book and pay above the price (or not), but is just so anxious to read your book, how can that be bad?

It’s an uncorrected proof, designed for reviewers, well aren’t these readers who love you so much that they’ll buy your arc the best possible reviewer you could imagine?

If they love your book, they’ll tell all their friends, or better yet, give that reader some credit, maybe they will buy multiple copies of your book and give them to friends as gifts. Friends who will then turn into repeat readers for you.

This is a good thing for the author. If it happened to me I’d be tickled to think someone was so anxious to read my book that they bought an arc off e-bay. It’s a huge compliment.

And seriously, in general aren’t we talking about a handful of books? Not thousands? The impact of this is next to nothing to the author.

I LOVE the idea another commenter had of posting on your site that someone paid a nutty amount for an arc…try and get as much mileage out of this as you can.

:) Pam

Well the authors of the rant can take their effin books and stick ‘em where the sun doesn’t shine. That sarcastic enough for you?

I have no intentions of buying ARC’s, heck I didn’t even know there was such a thing as ARC’s before this rant. The tone of the rant has put me right off ever buying any of these author’s books. There’s better things to spend my money on that a bunch of authors who look down their nose at their readers.

Just a response to Lucy’s “nobody would bother” with the rental market… since as an avid reader I’ve had to start paying 10 dollars for an “Easy to Read” (wtf?!?!) but hard to afford paperback, there IS now a Netflix for Romance Novels… its called Luvlibrary.
Greedy Publishers and authors who rush out shoddy work that no one considers a keeper - be warned.