Smart Bitches, Trashy Books

I’m confused by the reasoning that it’s okay to remove a book because of its “triggering nature.” The same could be said for almost ANY book.

Like I said on Twitter, I think it’s time to marshal the BItchery and create a Top 100 YA over here.

I never thought I’d see the day when Bitch Media would be following the playbook of the Humble, Texas, Teen Lit Fest, which disinvited author Ellen Hopkins because of one librarian who didn’t like Hopkins’ books or their subject matter.

It’s definitely shocking. My mind is still boggling. I also can’t understand ignoring supporters, writers, and librarians who clearly approved of the original list in favor of one commenter who doesn’t. It makes no sense.

And it shouldn’t have changed the opinion of the post writer either way but… if all it takes is one complaint to change a list, shouldn’t a lot of complaints change the list back?

“Failing to critique” ??!? Failing to critique? B.S. If your book stops to critique a character’s actions or explain how something was good or bad, you have failed as an author. And if you can’t see how rape as revenge is a bad thing, you have failed as a human and a book isn’t going to make it worse.

Same with victim blaming….it happens. Victims blame themselves, victims are blamed by other people, sometimes the bad guys win in the court of public opinion. It’s bad, yes, but it’s real. An author who leaves it out, leaves out part of the victim’s experience and one who stops to critique it fails as a writer. People should be able to pick up that maybe blaming the victim is a bad thing. If nothing else, seeing a character be blamed for something that wasn’t truly their fault may help other people either stop blaming victims or stop blaming themselves.

smh

I’ll admit I only read the first part of this before giving up because, frankly, it just sounds to me like the whole lot of them got sucked into the OTT mentality of the LiveJournal Internet Social Justice crowd.

It’s a Brave Brave New World.

I gave up on feminists when the president threw a 24 year old under the bus to save his own ass.
AND NONE OF THEM SAID SHIT! They were too busy wanting to have his baby.

But the good news is, I didn’t know that book existed and it’s going on my To Read list well as the Uglies.

You outrage is appreciated!!!! Seriously!

Wouldn’t it make more sense to give a trigger warning for potentially triggering material and let people decide for themselves whether or not they want to deal with it? Isn’t that what trigger warnings are for?

Also, the library student part of me is still shaking my head over seeing these people act like the crazy fundies who want us to ban And Tango Makes Three or Uncle Bobby’s Wedding because they truly believe (in their own way) that it’ll harm kids to read them. For a person who may have true, serious issues with these books, they should be able to foresee it from the blurbs…not every book is for everyone. But just like Uncle Bobby’s Wedding and the like are fantastic for open-minded parents or people with gay family members, these books might be genuinely helpful to people who’ve had to go through these things (and comments over there suggest that they are).

Let the readers make up their own minds.

smh again.

Warning labels on books?

Actually, I’m surprised they think the Blue Sword is more feminist than the Hero and the Crown, or Sunshine. But hey, if they’re not reading the books on their list, then I say it’s just as well that I’d never heard of them until today.

They shouldn’t have put the books on the list in the first place if they hadn’t researched them properly.  So Bitch‘s bad there.

That said, the excerpt I read of Sisters Red was definitely anti-feminist, placing the responsibility of getting attacked on the victims and saying they deserved to be killed because they were pretty and shallow.  That book did not belong on the list, it’s not a feminist model for teenagers.  Remedying their mistake does not make Bitch wishy-washy, it’s basic decency.

And “triggering” is a concept that goes far, far beyond mere adolescence.  It’s not something that can be said for every book.  Rape is a crime that destroys people’s lives.  It is not minor.  I’m not saying a trigger should keep the book off the list, but saying that “anything can be triggering” minimizes and belittles the experience of rape survivors.

I am in shock ... I have read Bitch magazine since I was 16. And never did I think something like this would happen ... it’s insane .... thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Wait. This is a FEMINIST magazine. It was informed that some of the books on its list of recommendations HANDLED RAPE BADLY in a way that would be retraumatizing (that’s what triggering means!) to rape survivors and promote blaming of rape victims. So it took them off.

I would expect nothing less!

Isn’t Smart Bitches, Trashy Books the blog that acknowledges that one of the frequent problems in Old School romances is that they eroticize rape?

I’m confused. And disappointed. I really expected better of you, Sarah.

I’m really tired of being told what it means to be a rape survivor.

Really.
Very.
Tired.

When I read Susan Palwick’s Flying In Place it was upsetting, yes. When I saw Hook (the Disney film) I cried hysterically for hours. Your trigger may not be my trigger and censoring media under the guise that the fragile womanhood can’t handle it.

Well. That’s not my feminism.

They’re not censoring the book.  They are choosing not to recommend it because they don’t agree with its values.  Very different.

A trigger warning is also different from censoring.  It’s a heads-up so that you can decide for yourself if you want to read it.  It allows the reader to make an informed, educated decision for their own selves.  It does not make decisions for anyone else, as has been suggested in this thread.

I’m amazed by the to-do over “Tender Morsels”.  Okay, maybe I’m not.  After all, I had just whined during #yalitchat and later to Margo Lanagan herself about the book.  However, I’m surprised that it was pulled off the list for the sodomy part.  I didn’t think it was that big a deal considering what happened to the main character, Liga, prior.  Sure, Urdda’s magic manifested in the felt men who sodomized the men who had gang-raped her mother, but it’s not like Urdda did it on purpose.  Plus, this is Liga’s story and as it is presented like a fairytale, who cares what happened to the men afterward.  This is not their story.  Yes, sodomizing men to avenge Liga is bad, but Urdda can’t go all UF on their asses and castrate them, okay?

I agree that anything can be triggering and trying to anticipate what will set a random sample of the population off is futile.

Watching the movie “Camp” had my sobbing at my therapist about my perv of a high school drama teacher (I was shocked to discover how happy I was to find he had died of colon cancer 2 years ago, I hadn’t realized how much hate I still carried 15 years on), but no one would think to warn about a feel-good indie film about a camp for musical teens.

Real life is rarely fair and good books and films reflect that.

That said, the excerpt I read of Sisters Red was definitely anti-feminist, placing the responsibility of getting attacked on the victims and saying they deserved to be killed because they were pretty and shallow.

Yes, you read an excerpt, taken out of context. Because only half of the book is from Scarlett’s point of view. The OTHER half of the book is from Rosie’s point of view- Scarlett’s sister- who is, in fact, one of the “butterfly” girls mentioned in that excerpt.

And guess what? Throughout the book, Scarlett learns that no girls in particular deserve to be targeted, that it’s all right if SHE chooses to spend her life as a hunter… but that Rosie’s choice not to hunt, and to not be ashamed of her femininity, is EQUALLY VALID.

So yes, shame on Bitch for NOT reading the book, and shame on them for extrapolating a single problematic moment that is eventually part of Scarlett’s awakening into “this book is all about rape culture, yay, rapey rapey.”

For those of you who haven’t read TENDER MORSELS, please be advised that all the rape, gang rape, and sodomy are presented very circumspectly.  Nothing is spelled out; no violent acts are described.  For younger readers, it is implied that something horrible had happened but the violent acts are cut away at the last moment so no one will be looking up words like “sodomy” and “gang-rape”.  There are many good things about this book.  I was just seriously bummed because Liga didn’t get a HEA.

I have to say that I fully agree with Bitch magazine’s decision (per Susan and SylviaSybil’s posts).  Heavy-handed critique may be out of place in a work of fiction, but critique of some kind has to come into play when dealing with a “rape as revenge” scenario, or with outright victim-blaming if the author wants to call the book a work of feminist fiction.  The fact of the matter is, we live fully within rape culture, and so no, no one gets a free pass to use rape as a plot point and then NOT dissect it under the guise of “humanity understands that rape is bad”.  Clearly not, or we wouldn’t be asking rape victims what clothing they wore to try to vindicate rapists.  And self-blame may be a part of a victimised person’s experience, but unless we plan on locking all potential victims in impenetratable cells for their own protection, it is not conducive to paint victim-blaming as an acceptable component of feminist lit.

Frankly, ditto the eroticization of rape/violence (ie “triggering” language).  Sadly, that IS a part of adolescent experience in modern western culture.  That does not give it a free pass in “feminist” fiction either.

I too expected better of you, Sarah.

“That said, the excerpt I read of Sisters Red was definitely anti-feminist, placing the responsibility of getting attacked on the victims and saying they deserved to be killed because they were pretty and shallow.”

By all means, let’s judge the moral tenor of books based on EXCERPTS.

@Hope

The excerpt I read had a second character, Silas, saying the same thing.  That’s more than just an opinion.

I have not read any of the removed books, but when a work of art is “triggering,” that is, it causes the audience to experience extreme emotions, often calling up painful memories, it is usually because the work of art was extraordinarily successful in its portrayal of a traumatic experience. And we have a name for that phenomenon: catharsis.

@Ron Hogan

? It says in Bitch’s press release that after they received complaints, they went back, read and reread the offending books and decided they didn’t want to recommend them.  They based their decision on more than an excerpt.

I’m agreeing with them based on the excerpt I read, but they have read the entire thing and that is what they are basing their decision on.

The excerpt I read had a second character, Silas, saying the same thing.  That’s more than just an opinion.

It’s the same scene from the same characters’ POV. Scarlett has a personal arc, and so does Silas. But by all means, judge an entire book and what it accomplishes based on ONE paragraph.

Does it matter to the Bitchery that the “rape for vengeance” was perpetrated on MEN who GANG-RAPED her mother?

They’re not censoring the book.  They are choosing not to recommend it because they don’t agree with its values.  Very different

No, they recommended it, then withdrew the recommendation. That is not the same as choosing not to recommend it. When a book is removed from the library under the same protecting the mythical victims stance, it is not the same as the library having chosen not to buy the book.

I don’t understand where all this passion is coming from.  Saying they should have done their homework better in the first place is a valid criticism.  Saying they’re not allowed to correct their mistakes (or what they perceive to be their mistakes) is at the very least presumptuous.

@Hope

As I said to Ron Hogan above, Bitch read and reread the book.  My admittedly limited experience agrees with their analysis.

@meoskop

Still not censorship.  And they still have the right to correct themselves and/or change their minds based on new (to them) information.

@ infinitieh

Does it matter to the Bitchery that the “rape for vengeance” was perpetrated on MEN who GANG-RAPED her mother?

Matter in the sense that it is somehow justifiable?  If that’s the meaning, I hope that the fact that it’s revenge doesn’t matter.  If they’re culling books that they feel promote rape culture, then it would fall under that definition.

First, the threat of rape as the real punishment for a crime (as opposed to prison) is such a well-worn track of ugly in our culture that it becomes exhaustingly horribly to contemplate.  It’s not just a threat, it’s something that happens to hundreds (probably thousands) of human beings every day around the world.  It’s an abuse and an abrogation of human rights, it perpetuates the idea that punishment leads to correction, the trope feeds homophobia, and it also leads to the second point…

Second, the idea that it is ever justifiable to use sexual conduct as a weapon is part of rape culture and is another thing that allows people to justify rape of women, especially revenge or corrective rape.

So, yeah, I hope it doesn’t matter at all.

I’m a little confused why they don’t just add a little symbol to the books on the list that are trigger-y (like a ‘warning: rape/violence’ thing). Problem solved?

I’m really tired of being told what it means to be a rape survivor.

Really.
Very.
Tired.

[...] Your trigger may not be my trigger and censoring media under the guise that the fragile womanhood can’t handle it.

Well. That’s not my feminism.

Ditto, @meoskop. Ditto tenfold.

I understand and respect victim fragility, both physical and psychological. But the tendency we have, as a society, of treating issues like rape and abuse with figurative kid gloves makes my heart hurt. I know not everyone can be “strong” (and don’t get me wrong—all survivors are strong); still, books like Tender Morsels, Living Dead Girl, and Sisters Red provide stepping stones toward strength and awareness by being blunt, discussing the “hard stuff.”

If a media outlet like Bitch Media won’t talk about rape—which is essentially what they’ve done by removing these three books from their wide-reaching YA list—who will?

Note: I have zero familiarity with Bitch Magazine or the books being discussed, so I’m just commenting on the story as presented here.

…Tender Morsels because of the way that the book validates (by failing to critique or discuss) characters who use rape as an act of vengeance…

Didn’t a lot of people criticize Twilight for exactly the same kind of thing—portraying disturbing and unhealthy behavior without in-story commentary or discussion on how disturbing and unhealthy it was? I sure did.

I’m not making any judgement on Bitch putting this book on the list or subsequently removing it. I’m just saying, I think that was a valid criticism about Twilight; so, in and of itself (remember, I haven’t read the book so I can’t comment on whether it applies in this case), I don’t think that would be a ridiculous reason not to recommend a book as feminist.

No, I don’t want books to preach to me. I also don’t want them to assume I’m stupid and can’t figure things out for myself, or make my own judgements. But I very much prefer some in-story discussion or conflict when a character does something morally/ethically questionable—say, a character might be considered totally justified in killing someone (self-defense, to protect another person, etc.) but still questions her actions and what they say about her. It makes the story richer because it acknowledges moral grey areas—that people aren’t wholly good or wholly evil, etc. And when that doesn’t happen, when anything the heroes do seems to get a pass as justified, I always feel like something really compelling has been missed out on.

Of course Bitch magazine is allowed to retract items on its own list. And of course Smart Bitches (and, obviously, some authors on the list) can point out that this is the same kind of reasoning that is (other) cases of book-censorship. It would be one thing to not have put the books on in the first place, but to remove them is to practically brand them as anti-feminist. It sends an inarguably insulting message to those authors, too.
That said…I am glad to see The Blue Sword on the list. Or I would be, if the list had more integrity.

They’re not saying rape can’t be discussed.  There’s at least one other book on the list I’ve read (even the title is a spoiler, but it’s book #4 if you’re interested) that is entirely about rape and its aftermath.  Bitch said in their opinion one of the books validates rape.  That’s very different.

And oh my god, if I’m reading this right, Tender Morsels has rape as something the heroes do?  But it’s “okay” because the people they’re raping had raped someone else, so they deserved it?  Please tell me I’m misinterpreting that, because holy shit that is not heroic.

Okay, so I don’t agree with many of the books on the list - Like Frankie Landu Banks - and there are many others I’ve not read yet, so I’m not going to comment on that.

But I do know that when you are putting together a list of whatever and you’re making it public, you have to stand behind it. It’s YOU that gives it credibility, and you have to stand behind it and it has to make sense to your identity as whatever-you-are who is writing the list - be that a critic, a blogger or whatever.

The only thing that has happened is that Bitch Magazine has lost it’s credibility, because it’s obvious they didn’t think their original list through. And that they don’t respect said list since they are willing to put and take out whatever whomever tells them to.

Amazing what people choose to read from the comments.

@SylviaSybil & everyone else:
Urdda badgers her mother Liga into revealing the identity of her (Urdda’s) father.  Her father was one of the boys who raped Liga when Liga was about 16.  That night, Urdda’s magic manifested while she was sleeping and the five men she cut out earlier in felt grew to life-size.  These felt men then sodomized the five men who gang-raped Liga all those years ago.  Urdda did not intentionally grew the felt men into life-size nor did she consciously make them sodomize the men.  After it was revealed what happened to the men (again, this was done very circumspectly), Urdda was sent to Miss Dance to learn magic and how to control her magic.  The men were not mentioned much again.

As much a good guy as Davit is, there is no hero in TENDER MORSELS, just heroines.

@infinitieh

Thank you for your explanation.  I’m relieved it’s not as bad as it originally sounded.  Not that I ever agree with rape-as-revenge, but a subconscious action is different from a conscious one.

This is disappointing-wait, no, it’s infuriating, especially for a self proclaimed feminist media group. Pointing these books out as no longer worthy of feminist young readers (by calling them triggering or inappropriate) infantilizes the readers—and scars authors who are grappling with difficult issues.
As for trigger issues-these could have been mentioned in the list. In my own experience, if Summer of My German Soldier had been “helpfully” labeled as inappropriate or triggering for emotional and physical abuse, I never would have found the strength to survive my own and might never have understood that it was wrong and that if Patty is a good person and doesn’t deserve it…
let’s say I’d have missed so much.

Hell, I was pushed into seen my siblings born when I was a child and did not want to see at all—The Midwife’s Apprentice, while well crafted and skilled made me ill and terrified.

So, there you go. Shame on you, Bitch.

former35
I am one of 35 former readers of Bitch.

I think both sides have valid points of view here, although I lean heavily toward the “original list should stand” PoV. But I’d encourage everybody to take a step back and remember that Bitch is run by actual humans, probably not very many, and based on their reactions to the comments, they are humans who care about other people’s feelings.

I think they blew it. PR fail. But they did not censor or state that these books should not be read. They made an error in judgment trying to do the right thing. And since they are subscribe based, it makes sense that they would pay so much attention to early negative comments.

After reading the comment thread over there, all I can say is I would be hunkered down with the liquor and praying the storm will pass. Subscribers and authors alike lit into them like
wolves on a caribou. They started off with a good idea, it generated some controversy, and they equivocated. I think it was naive to suppose you could name a “feminist” list in any category and not catch hell for it because it means so many different things to different people, but can’t we cut them a bit of slack?

I’ve put my foot in more than once. That’s what Bitch did. They should have acknowledged concerns and stood their ground. I’m reserving judgment to see if they’ve learned that lesson, but I’m not willing to run them out on a rail over a well-intended mishap where they really didn’t say anything mean about anybody.

I hate to see any book taken off of a list because of the reasons sited.  If a book is upsetting to someone they shouldn’t read it, but that doesn’t give them the right to say it shouldn’t be read by anyone else. 

Two of my children suffered from PTSD and different things would trigger an event.  Some of the books they were assigned as reading were not suitable for them, but you know what?  The teachers had alternate books on the reading list they could substitue.  I never asked the school to pull the book from the recommended reading list.  The books were good books for most of the kids.

I’m a writer, alhtough not published yet, and expect some people will find my work not to their taste.  That’s what book blurbs and reviews are for, they give you an idea what the book is about whether it is suitable for the reader.

I hope Bitch Magazine stops caving.

@infinitieh:

Then it sounds like Bitch STILL doesn’t really understand Tender Morsels. What is the “fail[ure] to critique or discuss” rape-as-vengeance? If the character didn’t do it on purpose, and she was sent off to learn to control her magic so she didn’t do things like that unconsciously, what IS their problem with the book?

I agree that the big problem here is that Bitch edited their list. If you’re going to post a list on the internet, you have to know there’ll be a debate. (See: any list of The Best/Worst Anything of Whatever.) So either you stay out of the debate because the list itself was your contribution to the subject; or, if you do get involved, you defend your position. Bitch’s waffling suggests they didn’t have a very strong position to begin with, and if you aren’t absolutely sure what your opinion is, putting it out there in a form that’s bound to attract arguments is just a bad idea.

(Addendum: While I was putting that reply together, email alert informed me that several people were making some of the same points, and I meant to specifically agree with Alex and Laurel that Bitch should’ve stood behind their list.)

A friend was raped in a truck carrying iceberg lettuce. For 35 years, she couldn’t stand the scent of iceberg. Let’s ban salad bars. [One day she didn’t mind the smell at all and she can now eat any salad green she pleases.]

Some books hurt while you read them, and it is not the same for every reader or even each time that you read the same book. Giving people warnings about what type of material they will find within a book doesn’t bother me. (Samhain and Loose-Id do great jobs of warning whether the sex will cross your personal comfort boundaries without sounding like there is a problem with having a personal comfort level.)

But I do feel a level of disrespect for someone who publishes a top 100 list that has to be revised immediately to please their audience. The books did not change during that time between the list being published and the list being revised.
If it was just a popularity contest, why not run the top 100 like DABWAHA?

Can we have a DABWAHA for YA novels?
Pretty please?

I don’t feel like I have always read enough of the entries to vote for DABWAHA, but I have read a lot of the YA books that the general population of SBTB loves. I could vote with confidence.

I don’t know about the books that were removed and from what was said about them maybe they should not have been on their in the first place (?) but I can say that Tomorrow, When the War Began and that entire series is totally amazing even if I can’t see how “feminist” it is.

But I’d encourage everybody to take a step back and remember that Bitch is run by actual humans

Is that on a bingo card somewhere? Because it should be. Things that make me tired, maybe.

I’m pretty sure no one thinks Bitch is run by fake humans. Or dolphins. This is a pretty mellow discussion of a pretty hot topic.  Everyone is human in this discussion. Authors and readers too. (Unless Don Marquis was right and cockroaches have mad crazy typing skills. I dunno tho, that lends itself to talking cats. Dangerous road.)

I dislike the idea that it is disgraceful or “waffling” to listen to the concerns of your readership after publishing something controversial. It’s not weakness, or a sign that you didn’t actually think or care about what you published in the first place, to stop and reevaluate when someone tells you you’ve fucked up. It’s not like Bitch caved simply because they were afraid of controversy; they reread the books and decided that they were wrong in their initial inclusion. I fail to see why they should have held their ground when they clearly didn’t feel that they were in the right.

As for “triggering,” rape is not the only circumstance that is triggering, and “unfortunately” seems too weak a word right there. And because of the (again, unfortunate) diversity of sexual assault experiences, in fact, anything can be triggering. Trauma of many sorts can be recreated by smells, sounds, etc.

The idea that if anything can potentially be a trigger, then it’s stupid to worry about something that has a very strong statistical potential to trigger someone, is a facile argument. Yes, it’s possible for a rape victim to be triggered by something as innocuous as iceberg lettuce. It’s also possible that I could get into a car accident when I’m paying attention and driving cautiously. But it’s also a hell of a lot more likely that I will get into an accident if I’m driving while distracted (texting, talking on my cell phone, etc.) so I don’t do it. I don’t tout the fact that I could totally get into an accident while I’m not texting as a reason that it’s totally okay to text and drive.

I have read Just lisen” and “Speak” both dealing with a “type” of teen rape (popular guy invites girl to party rapes her and then she shuts everyone out) I find POWER in these books and thay give Me hope that it will get better one day.  I also read a book called “Stravaganza City of stars” that dose not deal with rape but with an older-sibling being verbally and emotionally abusive, now just because both subjects hit close to home for Me, I have reread “Just lisen” and “Speak” but sadly I can not bring Myself to do the same for Stravagaza tho it is a great book I guess it is My “Trigger”
What I’m trying to say is one person’s Trigger is another one’s empowerment. My Soul will cry if thay start puting warning lables on books. ban Bambi cause His Mother dies? and it may trigger someone who’s own mother died when thay where a child? ban Romeo and Julliet cause there may be someone who made a “lets run away together"or suicide pact with there best friend/boyfriend and then did not go thru with?

Captcha eye34
An Eye for an Eye may leave the whole world Blind
but have you ever tried to see thru Bubble wrap and Blinders?

Back in secondary school (Germany) I made a lecture on Nat Hentoff’s “The day they came to arrest the book” and was quite shocked that banning books is still some sort of normal in the US. While checking facts on the internet, I also heard that Little Red Riding Hood was banned due to its brutality - wtf?! Children over here love that story. The people that make these decisions really should get their act together - nobody ever develops while growing up in a cotton ball. I think books like “Go, ask Alice” and Nick Mc Donell’s “Twelve” could be of help showing how the world really is.

There are such strong and conflicting views expressed here that I hesitate to wade in, but speaking from a different generation and culture, it seems to me that those who object to what they see as undesirable elements in certain books are being, at the very least, over-protective.  Some of the things adolescents have to learn in order to make the transition from child to adult are that reality can be both cruel and immoral, that received wisdom is not always correct, and that authority figures may themselves be at fault.  Young people have to learn how to judge these matters, and to find ways of coping with an imperfect, and continually changing, reality.  They need to learn how to make dispassionate, intellectual judgements. 

Personally, I would never, as an adolescent, have looked for answers in fantasy fiction, in anything containing ‘magic’, which I despised (and still do):  I wanted stories about real life, written for adults.  But another teenager, even then, might have drawn the necessary information and attitudes equally well from fairy-tales tales written for children, or from re-tellings of ancient myths (satisfyingly full of revenge, injustice, and plain, unadulterated violence).

What I am trying to say is that good books, even if they contain ideas and beliefs we reject, are better for young readers than bad books which tick all the right, currently politically correct boxes.  Remember anyway that political correctness is mutable.  I would like to think that a 13-year-old might read one of the books that has been criticised and argued about, and say afterwards, ‘I enjoyed it, but I thought that X (some event within it) was not fair, not right’.  That will encourage growth far more than striking the book off an ‘approved’ list.  People need to learn how to argue and debate, and for that, it is necessary to be familiar with all sides of an argument.

I can see faint echoes in some of the arguments above of the scandalous urge to redact old, classic works to remove words and attitudes that we now consider unacceptable.  To me, that is real 1984 stuff, the retrospective editing and falsification of history;  it is just as wrong to remove an offensive racial epithet from a 19th century book as it would be to use it today.  We are where we are because of the route we took, and the injustices of the past helped to form what we hope are more enlightened ideas today.  One thing that we can learn is that genuinely good, decent people can unthinkingly subscribe to evil beliefs because they are ‘taken as read’, being part of their society’s norms:  a scary but necessary lesson.

Teenagers are people:  children are people.  They have to live in our society, which, like all human societies, is imperfect.  They have to know about both good and evil, and how to make choices.  We do them no favours at all by mollycoddling them.

Hmm.

Well, I must say I’m horribly dissapointed.  Why?  Because when I saw the big cover of Tender Morsels on this post I thought it was going to be a YA lesbian, coming of age type book and the post was about some ruckus people made about it exisiting or being recommended.  Now I’m all sad that’s not what it is at all, partly because I really want to read something like that, and partly because I was hoping we’ve progressed to the point where there might be a book like that on a list like this.  (Is there?  I’ve only read three or four on the list, so let me know.)  Terrible sadness.

Outside of that, I don’t agree with them changing the list either.  If you’re going to make a list like that, then you should at least have the decency to read the books that are on it, and if you’re going to split it up amongst a group of people, then have them explain why they think it is a good book after they have read it.  Then, when other people have dissenting opinions, the person who actually read it can further explain or clarify why they chose it.  I wouldn’t imagine it would be so complicated, especially when they can argue that that’s not really what the book is saying, like above readers of Sisters Red and Tender Morsels have.  It’s just made it blatantly obvious they didn’t research it well enough and they kind of just seem to be digging the hole deeper in an attempt to fix it.  It’s less obvious when you just say “we value your opinion but stand by our original decision.”

As far as the triggering thing - I really don’t think that’s necessary.  I get the argument that anything can be a possible trigger as well as the argument that some things can be more likely and obviously triggers.  But…are there really people that pick up books and read them without even glancing to see what they’re about?  I mean, both of the descriptions on Amazon for Living Dead Girl mention abuse/rape/abduction pretty clearly and in the first couple of sentences.  I would think that someone who might know that would be a trigger for them would realize it as soon as they read what the book was about - so do we really need to worry about warning them that it’s a trigger?

Or do people actually just pick up books and just read them based just on the title and cover?  (Of which I’m glad I’m not one of them, or I’d be very confused reading Tender Morsels right now, wondering when the gang raping was going to be done and the two girls would figure out they loved each other and run through the woods together to where they could celebrate their love.  Damn cover.)

Great points, AgTigress. I think 13 year olds are far more resilient than we give them credit for, and I’d much rather a teenager’s first exposures to such challenging concepts and subject matter come from books rather than real life.   

This is a process fail on BITCH’s part - a failure which could have been prevented if more research had been done before publishing the list in the first place.

Midknyt: Sadly the girls on the cover are sisters! But i agree that there is a need for more lesbian YA coming of age stories.  Have you read Ash by Malinda Lo?  It’s a lovely retelling of Cinderella in which the heroine falls for the Prince’s Huntress instead of the prince.

Tender Morsels is a magnificent book, but also a difficult one to navigate at times.  It’s a major fantasy work with very tough themes, and certainly can’t be summed up or judged in a mere description, but I was very disappointed to see the lone commenter at Bitch and then the representatives of the magazine themselves condemn it as a book that ‘uses rape as revenge’ - a minor and in this case entirely misunderstood plot point.

What is wrong with people? It’s a group of bloggers’ personal picks? WTF? So what? Will there be outrage from a select community now whenever a blogger picks a group of books that shocks or upsets people?

Give me a break. It’s a freakin’ book list.

And the fact that some YA authors go one there acting all offended for whatever personal reason is ridiculous. Bad call on their part.

Also why would those at Bitch Magazine change their picks just because a group of people came on to complain?

But then again, if you haven’t read a book, how can you place it on a list in the first place? That’s like condeming a book for being evil but not reading it.

Oh look, censorship at it’s “finest”.

I’d much rather a teenager’s first exposures to such challenging concepts and subject matter come from books rather than real life.

Exactly.  This one of the strengths of fiction, for people of all ages.  We can enlarge our experience and examine our reactions to different situations in safety and at leisure.  This can actually help when we are faced with real crisis.  I am not suggesting that this is a primary objective of fiction, but it is one of the many mind-broadening effects of reading stories.  Sanitised, idealised stories are okay too, as long as they are well written, but we all face some dark times, pain and injustice in our lives, and they should be reflected in some of the fiction we read from an early age, so that we can recognise them and ponder how best to deal with them.

I looked up Tender Morsels on Amazon and read the synopses and some of the reviews.  I wouldn’t want to read it myself, and would probably have dismissed it contemptuously at 13 because it is ‘a fairy-story’, but from that information, including some very hostile reviews, I couldn’t see that any of the disturbing elements in it would make it inappropriate for an adolescent reader.

@AgTigress, I hope that someday I can have even half your eloquence and grace.  Well said.

My understanding is that there is an internet culture about “warnings” and “triggering” which comes out of fan fiction, which is often written and read by adolescents, such as the alternative takes on Harry Potter and so on.  I don’t read Bitch and haven’t read any of the books being discussed, but I suspect that the problem here is the issue of whether and how that fan fiction culture is or is not applied to a list of recommended books on the internet.

Storm in a teacup, unless you are one of the authors concerned.  My heart rate remains unchanged.

I think one of the things that bothers me most about the reponses to Bitch’s decision to remove the books is the repeated insistence that Bitch should not have let the comments of a few people influence their reading of the books in question. Scott Westerfield’s comment in particular seems to take for granted that the Bitch writers are incapable of critical thinking. It is completely possible to read a text wth someone else’s opinion in mind and still come to the conclusionthat they are wrong in their interpretation. I think thatthe world would be a better place if more people, when confronted with criticism, were willing to stop and take that criticism seriously for a moment before deciding whether to go on the defensive.

It is neither censorship nor taking choices away from teens and rape victims to remove books from a rec list because you don’t feel comfortable labeling them as feminist. Bitch isn’t keeping anyone from reading these books and making their own decisions about the subject matter, they’re just saing the don’t feel comfortable recommending them. As far as I’m concerned their only fault was not researching their list well enough in advance.

Just for interest, I looked up Tender Morsels on Amazon UK.  http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tender-Morsels-Margo-Lanagan/dp/1849920079/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t
No hostile reviews at all, as yet (and a much tougher-looking, more grown-up, cover).

Me:

But I’d encourage everybody to take a step back and remember that Bitch is run by actual humans.

meoskop:

Is that on a bingo card somewhere? Because it should be. Things that make me tired, maybe.

@ meoskop. No, the bingo people said they only take numbers. The fortune cookie people said it was too long.

Failure to critique?

“But, Rhett!” Scarlett cried. “What shall I do?”

Rhett paused, his hand on the door. “Frankly, my dear, your insistence on defining yourself by your relationships with men is self-infantilizing and avoids ownership of your own sexuality. Also, that tightly cinched corset is both dangerous to your health and a means by which the patriarchy restricts your full participation in society. Good day to you.”

I hate this ‘trigger warning’ shit. Trigger warning, I’m allergic to peanuts, don’t talk about peanuts around me. Trigger warning, I accidentally stuck my finger in a cat’s asshole, please don’t bring up cats or assholes in my presence. It’s goddamn juvenile and dertrimental. Why don’t these people just walk around with those horse blinders and ear plugs.

Failure to critique?

“But, Rhett!” Scarlett cried. “What shall I do?”

Rhett paused, his hand on the door. “Frankly, my dear, your insistence on defining yourself by your relationships with men is self-infantilizing and avoids ownership of your own sexuality. Also, that tightly cinched corset is both dangerous to your health and a means by which the patriarchy restricts your full participation in society. Good day to you.”

Awesome.

@AgTigress - I agree with you completely.

I’m just flabbergasted they’d remove a Michael Printz Honor book from the list.  Still scratching my head over that.

I have big issues with Tender Morsels—unrelated to the rapes—but wow, what a crummy reason to remove a book from the list.

I think books with rape in them need to exist, because rape exists in the real world and rape survivors need to know that (a) they are not alone and (b) they can still be a heroine; that capacity has not been taken away from them.

Captcha: room52. I should probably make an Emma Donoghue reference of some kind.

As Faellie observed, to warn or not to warn for potentially triggering/emotionally sensitive content is a massive meta-issue that cuts across multiple levels of fannish interaction with assorted media. Specifically, an enormous wankstorm erupted in the fairly recent past over whether warning for physical or sexual violence or character death was necessary or desirable in the context of fanfiction. The debate has been, to put it mildy, extremely rancorous.

I haven’t read the other two books, but Living Dead Girl should not be labeled as YA. I’m by no means oversensitive, and far from a teenager and still that book made me sick.  I’ve read books with rapes, but this only tells the story of a continous abuse, I kept hoping for an end (maybe my bad, I misunderstood the description apparently) that never came. I know this things happen in the world, but I don’t think YA need to read about it as explicitly. I for one, wish I could forget I ever read it. And I really can’t understand how it even made the list in the first place. It may be many things, but feminist or YA it is not.

I’m sorry you feel that way, Ana. As someone who experienced extended periods of sexual abuse in my childhood, I found it a relief to read Living Dead Girl. People are so uncomfortable with sexual abuse, especially the sexual abuse of children, that they talk past it, ignore it, and deny it.

It makes you feel small, it makes you feel dirty- it makes you feel like you did something wrong, to “let” someone assault you over a long period of time.

To finally read a book that reflected my experience was transformative. It was the first time in a long time that I felt like I wasn’t alone in the world. That I wasn’t a filthy, dirty freak who made things unclean just for existing.

I’m sorry Living Dead Girl wasn’t for you. But I am so, so grateful that Living Dead Girl was for me.

Well said Lonnie.  The Bitch forgot the very transformational nature of books and in their short sightedness also forget the multitude of perspectives that exist in this world.

Not being a reader of Bitch magazine I can’t comment on the quality of their publication. 

However, having studied Gloria Steinem, I recall very clearly the ideas behind the feminist movement.  Perhaps my summary won’t agree with everyone else’s but as I understand feminism, choice is paramount. 

A woman can choose to work, or choose to stay home.  She can choose to marry, choose to have children (though birth control and the sexual revolution was not considered part of the feminist movement), or choose to remain single.  She can choose to have children even if she remains single.  A woman can choose to try and have it all, and maybe actually acheive it, but the point is the options are open.  And the choice is hers.

We all have triggers.  We all have pasts.  We have to chose how to deal with those pasts.  But one person who has difficutly with a ‘trigger’ novel, doesn’t have the right to censor my choice to read it. 

I find it disappointing that the books were removed from a list mean to inspire YA readers.  I find it more disappointing that the magazine felt it had to ‘protect’ its readers from making their own choices.

I’ve read and enjoyed more books than I can count.  I don’t need to be protected from my reading material.  If a book is disquieting or too upsetting for me, I put it down.  I’m obviously not ready for it yet.  I don’t go and tell everyone else that they shouldn’t read that book because it upset me.  Who am I to make that choice?

I’m very disappointed that Bitch would chose to remove a book from their list because of it’s “triggering nature”. I’m starting to find myself more and more frustrated by the way this concept is being used in online discourse. I frequently see it used, often coupled with the concept of a “safe space”, to render topics totally off limits or to derail every conversation into an examination of someone’s pain.

To be clear, I’m not advocating being insensitive or unkind. Some things are obviously more likely to be triggering than others and I’m in favor of warnings of some sort so that people can avoid them if they need to. As others have pointed out, the blurb on Living Dead Girl is pretty clear about what’s in the story and that’s as it should be.

That should be enough though. Going beyond that strikes me as disrespecting people’s ability to make their won decisions, which is very much at the heart of feminism. It also stifles discussions that need to take place.

In my opinion, if Bitch put the books on the list, they should have stood behind their decision. If they didn’t vet the books they listed, bad on them, but they still should have stood behind it.

As for the triggering issues. I was molested as a kid. I was raped as a teen and again as an adult. I grew up in an emotionally abusive household; I married an emotionally abusive man. (Divorced him four years ago.) I’ve been diagnosed with PTSD, and my healing is an ongoing process.

I have a LOT of triggers. That doesn’t mean that books that contain “triggering issues” shouldn’t exist, just that I shouldn’t read them.

Then again, in my YA urban fantasy series Reality Shift, I gave the main character, Shanna, a lot of my history, and I’ve triggered myself more than once while writing or revising the books. The series is about Shanna and her friend Jonah preventing the destruction of the universe, but Shanna’s experiences and her healing are a major subplot. Sometimes I sit here crying when I’m working on those books.

I do it anyway, because I know there are teens out there going through those same things. Some of them may be triggered by reading about Shanna’s life. But some of them might recognize themselves in Shanna and seek help.

A list in a magazine—or the retraction of part of that list—may not impact people’s reading decisions. On the other hand, it may prevent people from reading the books who, if they had read them, might have found some kind of solace or the courage to seek help. Or at least might have realized they aren’t alone.

@AgTigress
What she said.  All of it.

@Ana & @Lonnie
This is exactly why I think top 100 lists are a crock and censorship in all its permutations is an abomination: two valid opinions set at odds by by the absolutism of a list.  I googled “100 best books,” and, as I recalled, the predominance of male authored books on mainstream lists made my little hairs stand up, but I don’t recall any of those guys reneging.  Feminists shouldn’t waffle.

SmartBitches doesn’t need a 100 best anything list because it incorporates the best kind of list: open-ended, flexible, adaptable to all tastes, and loaded with information.

I make lists.  I make recommendations.  I’m a librarian, and the process of choosing is something I take very, very seriously.
Making a list of the 100 Greatest Feminist YA Books Ever Written To Date is not a task to be done over brunch, and I resent, as a professional, the carelessness the writers of Bitch took with this list.
Every person making the list should have read every book considered.  There should have been debate.  There should have been careful, deliberate consideration so that when issues like rape, triggering, and victim blaming rise, the authors of the list have prepared and reasonable responses.
The writers absolutely have a right to put whatever title they want on the list.  But to then go back and remove a title because they didn’t put in a proper amount of prep work is sloppy, and disrespectful to the readers. 
Making a list is not easy.  There will always, always always be people who don’t like this title, or think the other is too adult or too juvenile or whatever, but you have to stand behind the titles that were chosen, because they were chosen carefully and deliberately.
This entire situation just makes me…sad.

@Tansy Rayner Roberts - I have not read Ash but I am adding it to my TBR pile.  Thanks.  :)

I guess a cover of two sisters running hand in hand makes perfect sense for the book too.  For some odd reason two girls holding hands + a post that is obviously outraged over something other people did wrong = lesbian coming of age story that people are complaining about, at least in my head.  Oh well.

Having never read Bitch Magazine or most of the books mentioned, I can’t comment on the content.

I can, however, point out that any professional group that puts up a recommended list of books before even READING them is not professional.

Content aside, it’s silly and immature to put up a list and then pull books down or edit the list based on feedback from their readers.

I see it as pure laziness on their part.

You know, as a teen I never cared to read most of the standard young adult fiction available for the very reason that most of it seems overly sanitized and unreal to me. Whether this was an accurate reflection of what was being published at the time, or a result of banning/censorship on the part of my local librarians I don’t know.What I can say is that I liked adult books because they handled grittier, more realistic situations that I saw in my own life. I think sometimes people rush to shelter children from the wrong things. For me, books with dark themes were thought provoking, emotionaly stimulating, and at times educational.

Now, I did/do have some issues with triggers because of medical related traumas as a child. For me it’s usually smells, especially rubbing alcohol. The fact is, there is no way to avoid the things that might cause an event. I can’t expect the world to sheild me and I wouldn’t want them to. My “issues” are my own, and I deal with them as they come along both in life and in what I read.

If Tender Morsels and Sisters Red actually do contain author-endorsed rape-as-revenge and victim-blaming, respectively, I wouldn’t fault Bitch for taking them off the list. From what I’ve read in the comments, it looks like the rape-as-revenge happened as the result of a character accidentally losing control of her magical powers and wasn’t treated as a good thing in the story (although it doesn’t seem as though it were treated precisely as a bad thing, either, so I can see why somebody might object). As for the victim-blaming, that sounds like it was the point of view of a character who learned the error of her ways later. Of course, I haven’t actually read either book, so I could be wrong. Still, if a character had been all, “raping somebody as revenge is the best and also she was asking for it,” and the author was holding her up as some kind of paragon, then, yes, that would be a good reason to remove that book from the list.

Being potentially triggering, though, is another matter. If you want to protect people from being triggered, indicate on the list that, hey, this book has rape in it (or whatever the triggering thing is). You don’t remove it from the list. Discussing those matters doesn’t make a book bad or objectionable; it just makes it something that some people might find too painful to read, and there’s also nothing wrong with that.

(Personally, I think that it would be nice if books could…well, not warn for that sort of thing, but I hate it when a book or movie looks like it’s going to be cheerful but turns out to be all about rape and drug addiction and mental disorders and child abuse. Who wants to see that kind of thing when you want to watch something happy?)

Anyway, their treatment of potentially triggering material is inconsistent. At least two other books on that list deal with rape or sexual assault, and plenty of others contain eating disorders, relationship abuse, self-mutilation, and other common triggers. It seems like they only care if somebody makes a big fuss over it.

Thank you.  Seriously, thank you for speaking out on behalf of common sense.  I see a lot of this “There there, you poor little flower, we’ll protect you.” stuff these days and I’ve always felt that it was WAY too paternalistic and condescending.  I don’t buy into the idea that we’re too sensitive, that our trauma can knock us to the floor when we read or see something that reminds us of it.

I survived something that has given me pain for years now.  And yes, I see or read things that remind me of what I’ve lost and sometimes I’ll cry, sometimes I’ll despair, sometimes the misery is almost overwhelming.  But I get over it and I go on.  I’m not going to hide from my grief because that’s saying that I can’t handle it.  I can.  And I sure as hell don’t need someone else patting me on the head and saying they’ll protect me from it.

If something is a worthwhile read, then they should say so.  If they have any reservations, by all means mention them, too.  And then let the reader decide for her/himself. 

And if they haven’t bothered to read their own recs, then they need to STFU about it all.

I believe that individuals or groups who make lists either endorsing or condemning books should have read those books prior to the publication of said list. Otherwise it lacks credence.

Readers and rape survivors must be afforded the respect of being permitted to select which reading material is right for them.  I can read about rape. Not my favorite, but also not my trigger. What takes me back tot hat afternoon is iff I hear December by Collective Soul. Then, I’m a mess.

Don’t try to dictate or legislate what will bother me. And please don’t say “these things happen but YA shouldn’t have to read about it” because many times it is that demographic TO WHOM such things are happening! Discuss and honor that experience..don’t act ashamed of it.
Also, I have the greatest respect for the many thoughtful comments made above.

the fact that some YA authors go one there acting all offended for whatever personal reason is ridiculous

Yeah, how dare they stick up for their fellow author’s reputation and protest against misleading labelling and uninformed opinion? I mean, the nerve of some people. Who do they think they are, real human beings or something?

Oh look, censorship at it’s “finest”.

[Hon, it’s ‘its’. Look it up] And no, just no. Censorship would be if the publisher cut out offensive passages in the book, or the protesters managed to get the author’s contract cancelled or in some way made it impossible for anyone to read the book in question, or parts thereof. You might want to look up ‘censorship’ while you’re checking the correct form of possessives.

As usual AgTigress bring the calm wisdom, and I have nothing more I could say on the particular issues concerning the retroactive editing of this list. The fuss is giving it more importance than it deserves, I suspect.

What is wrong with changing your mind about something when a point you didn’t consider is made to you? I don’t agree with sticking by your every word forever. If you decide you were wrong, you should absolutely say so and fix it to the best of your ability as soon as possible.

This isnt censorship or book banning. This is a list of books Bitch thinks are feminist. If they decide one isn’t, why should they leave it up and perpetuate what they see as a mistake?

I personally think the list itself is a bit of a mess; some of the books on it aren’t actually YA (The Blue Sword is a heroic fantasy novel that was originally marketed to adults; I have the first mass market paperback edition, from an adult publisher with an adult cover and in the small typeface usually used on adult books), other aren’t really feminist (A Wrinkle in Time).  Even worse, to my mind, the books aren’t sorted by category or age range.  I wasn’t all that impressed.

I’m also considerably less than impressed by Bitch refusing to remove angry authors from the list.  If someone doesn’t want to be on it, for pity’s sake, why keep them there?

Yes, people are triggered by all sorts of things, and not all abuse survivors will be triggered by explicit references to abuse, but I think it’s fair to say a hell of a lot more abuse victims WILL be triggered by explicit descriptions of abuse than will be triggered by iceberg lettuce, FFS.  I’m very sorry for all those who react badly to triggers that other people find weird or silly, I myself have a few of those, and that’s a horrible situation to be in.  But the fact that we can’t warn everyone about all triggering experiences is not a reason to never try and warn ANYONE about any of them.

To be clear, Bitch is not attempting to define triggers, the post author is responding to specific complaints from readers.  She didn’t pull the idea that Living Dead Girl might be triggering out of thin air, someone who was triggered by it told her so, and she took that complaint seriously.

I actually think that removing the books from the list entirely was a poor call; once they had been selected (presumably with some kind of reasoning behind their selection other than “this book has a female protagonist”) the selectors should have stood by their choices or at least attempted to explain them.  But I am sick to death of seeing people raging about how triggers are unimportant and removing a couple of books from a list of recommendations is akin to censorship and *book burning*.  I think Bitch has been ADMIRABLE in their respect for readers who are concerned about triggers, and I applaud them for taking these concerns seriously, even if I am not totally pleased with the way they handled it.  I think trigger warnings/topics for discussion (for all the books) would have been a better move (but then I think the list would have been more useful as a feminist reader if it had had notes to begin with).

Jesus Christ, people.

It’s a fucking list in which a bunch of people say what they like.

So people have different expectations of what they want out of feminist literature. This is news?

Feminism isn’t one big happy tent where everyone has to agree with each other “or else.”

Try to understand what your sisters are doing before you react with scorn, okay?

I’ve finaly relized what this list reminds me of! “My Sister’s Keeper”. I read all thru the night, then want with my mom to the supermarket, stayed in the car cause I was almost finished the book then proceded to cry my eyes out.

Then the movie came out and I found out that in the movie, the person who dies is not the same one who died in the book WTF!?
I still refuse to see it cause it dose not respect
1. the book.
2. the journey of the people in the story.
3. me.

BITCH taking the books off the list is disrespectful in the same ways and also to whoever put them on the list in the first place.

and as to the whole trigger and death warnings in fanfics, I see it not so much censoring or whatever, but as genres like perody, kink, slash and hurt/comfort some will read it and some will skip it.

I don’t like it when someone desides to kill a char thats not there own, so I just avoid it if I can, but if an Author wants to it’s there world *shrugs

I’ve finaly relized what this list reminds me of! “My Sister’s Keeper”. I read all thru the night, then want with my mom to the supermarket, stayed in the car cause I was almost finished the book then proceded to cry my eyes out.

Then the movie came out and I found out that in the movie, the person who dies is not the same one who died in the book WTF!?
I still refuse to see it cause it dose not respect
1. the book.
2. the journey of the people in the story.
3. me.

BITCH taking the books off the list is disrespectful in the same ways and also to whoever put them on the list in the first place.

and as to the whole trigger and death warnings in fanfics, I see it not so much censoring or whatever, but as genres like perody, kink, slash and hurt/comfort some will read it and some will skip it.

I don’t like it when someone desides to kill a char thats not there own, so I just avoid it if I can, but if an Author wants to it’s there world *shrugs

I am sorry, but you lost your credibility when you bashed the trigger related issues. Seriously, what is wrong with you?

People WITH THESE TRIGGERS spoke up. These triggers are very common. We women have a right to speak up on this, sorry.

I am apalled that you actually use this platform to mock and attack us.

No, it’s not “like book burning” to remove these books from the list. Nor is it censoring. It’s a list of what the people of the magazine thought were feminist enough. They have a right to reconsider.

They actually accomodated rape victims for a change. Barely anyone does. And you attack them for it and even quote people saying that it’s totally bitch magazine bowing to TEH MAN? LOL! As if rape victims had any power in society and were listened to anywhere.

Ladies and Gentlemen: Your posting is rape culture in action. This is why rape culture is everywhere, and why barely anyone gives a damn about rape victims: The moment someone does, people like you attack them viciously for it.

Not okay. At all. But I get that you don’t think we count as people…

SarahJn & Megs: I totally

<3 your comment.

Romantic Alice: From what I read in the comments the Tomorrow series was added because a. strong female characters; b. non stereotypical gender roles; c. females as heroes and in a subgenre (contemporary action-adventure, I suppose) usually overrun with male characters (esp when it was first written); and d. decisions were made by the group, and everyone had an equal voice. (Not sure how much I agree with the series being feminist, but those seemed to be their reasons. There may have been more.)

Midknyt: Not sure if you were asking for suggestions, but

here’s a list.

Having been taught by Margo and heard her read her own work I would describe it as powerful and moving.

We all have triggers. Reading about paternal death scenes is one of mine, rape is another,suicidality due to bullying is a third.

Would I ever, ever demand that a book be removed from a list because it distressed me due to a personal event in my life?

Never. Not ever.

We all react in different ways to writing - sometimes something that distresses you can also be cathartic. Sometimes it can inform you in a way you previously hadn’t considered, Sometimes you can be offended. But you have no right to demand that a book be removed because it personally upsets you.

If it incites racial hatred, if it’s a manual on how to broil puppies, then yes, you would have grounds. But ‘It reminded me of a bad time’? ‘It upset me’?

Books aren’t supposed to be rainbows and puppies, and as a teen I responded far more to the books that spoke to what I was experiencing than some sanitised kidworld fantasy. Even if they made me cry, or hyperventilate, or walk away for a while.

I’m sorry, but being a rape survivor doesn’t give you some moral right to decide what kids can and can’t read, and censoring books from a list is not ‘rape victims having a voice’, it’s attempted thought control.

There is a big difference in saying this book triggers me so I shouldn’t read it, and saying this book triggers me so no one should ever read it, and it should never be recommended.  Good for the authors for standing up for their collegues. 

How very foolish they look for recommending books that they have not read.

Bashing people who are triggered is evil.

Censoring books because they contain triggers is also evil.

The sensible solution is to PUT BLOODY WARNING TAGS on the books that people have complained about. Sheesh! Is that so hard?

Does this book contain potentially-triggering rape references? Then FLAG IT so that people who know they personally are at risk of such things can choose not to read it.

It is absolutely not possible to remove all triggers from literature because people are set off by different things. But if people TELL you they’ve been upset by individual things, you can ADD A WARNING for it.

Sadly, I’m made quite angry and frustrated by a lot of the comments in this thread attacking ‘feminists’ as a group entity when WHOA HEY have you actually spoken to more than one feminist in your life? Hello, we don’t have a party line and we don’t agree on shit!

What I am trying to say is that good books, even if they contain ideas and beliefs we reject, are better for young readers than bad books which tick all the right, currently politically correct boxes.  Remember anyway that political correctness is mutable.  I would like to think that a 13-year-old might read one of the books that has been criticised and argued about, and say afterwards, ‘I enjoyed it, but I thought that X (some event within it) was not fair, not right’.  That will encourage growth far more than striking the book off an ‘approved’ list.  People need to learn how to argue and debate, and for that, it is necessary to be familiar with all sides of an argument.

LOVE this paragraph.  Thank you, AgTigress…Encourage our kids to read well-crafted books as opposed to pandering tripe and let the chips fall where they may.

I don’t think I fully understand the issue of “triggers.” I have never been raped or sexually assaulted. But I do have Post Traumatic Stress and related anxiety. Things that “trigger” a panic attack include feeling trapped, so a visit to the dentist is a big one for me (this was never an issue prior to PTSD) and I have to get laughing gas just to make it through a cleaning. I would never expect anyone to even understand my triggers, let alone go out of their way to warn or protect me for them.

I mean no personal disrespect to sexual assault victims, but it seems like the issue of rape triggers just has better marketing (for lack of better word) than other types of emotionally (and physically) tough flashbacks.

I don’t think I fully understand the issue of “triggers.” I have never been raped or sexually assaulted. But I do have Post Traumatic Stress and related anxiety. Things that “trigger” a panic attack include feeling trapped, so a visit to the dentist is a big one for me (this was never an issue prior to PTSD) and I have to get laughing gas just to make it through a cleaning. I would never expect anyone to even understand my triggers, let alone go out of their way to warn or protect me for them.

That’s exactly how I feel about it. I’ve had episodes wherein I basically relive my absolute worst moments. There isn’t always a way to see it coming. It’s just something I have to live with, unfortunately. I can see where warning labels on books might be helpful, but I don’t think they’d eliminate the problem entirely.

Having read Sisters Red, I don’t think it should have been included in the first place, and I’m not sad to see it go. I haven’t read the other books in question, so I don’t know how I’d feel about them, but the fact that they obviously didn’t do their homework before making the list is what I really have a problem with. If they’d actually read all the books on the list and gone over why they should/shouldn’t be included, I doubt that they would have felt they needed to make any changes. Why would you put books on that list without reading and analyzing them first? It’s just lazy.

I just think it would have been nifty to leave the original list and then have post after post talking about the issues in the books that were problematic.

It would have provided awesome discussion and a lot of great content for bitchmedia online.

I am a feminist. I am a strong person with a strong personality that doesn’t take shit but manages to be a kind human being. That being said, I am not 100% myself in my blog or anywhere online because I don’t feel like the Internet is where I want to get flack for my beliefs or opinions.

While I don’t agree with the way bitch handled this issue, I probably would have done the same thing in their position. I am not proud of that, but I am much more likely to back off of an issue or something I’ve written online because no one can see my intent, only my text. Plus it’s REALLY difficult to explain yourself properly online because there’s always going to be some hole in your words someone is going to poke a finger into and wiggle and talk about how you didn’t cover THAT or THIS or whatever.

It happened. It’s over. It’s good people are talking about it and having a problem with it and it’s good there are those that defend the actions. It takes all of us talking to keep us strong as feminists. On the bright side, I’m about 100% sure the list-compilers will take this experience and learn from it.

No one takes this much textual lashing and fucks it up the same way twice.

(Talking about trigger warnings so may be triggering)

Carly: I’m not sure if this is answering your question (your asking about trigger warnings, not the triggers themselves?), so please let me know. My understanding is they first started popping up on fanfiction to warn people when they start to read about Harry & Ron falling in love there’s scene X which may be triggering. TWs are usually put on for items or posts about rape, suicide, violent imagery, torture, body image (Fat Acceptance blogs, for example, realize a lot of their readers had eating disorders), etc…things that have a high chance of triggering someone. (Like someone said above, someone may be triggered by a piece of lettuce but its much more likely people will be triggered, by, say, an inhumane description of someone being tortured.) Blogs use TWs for the stuff likely to trigger their readers. Sexual assault and rapes are usually accompanied by TWs because if you consider the conservative figures of 1 in 6 women and 1 in 10 men, you are highly likely to have someone who survived a sexual assault (or attempted one), maybe multiple times, reading your blog. They are also more likely to be put in place because rape is treated as comedy within most of the US media, and so people want to show respect to survivors that their horrible experience is not just a bad joke, to be touched on for a (not actually funny) laugh. TWs are basically considered a courtesy, because they absolutely do not require extra effort but the fact they are there can help someone not be triggered.

One of the things I think should be pointed out is they didn’t get rid of all books that talk about tough things, or even all books about rape. (Speak, for example, is the year long aftermath of a rape victim.) They got rid of books they think trigger people because of victim-blaming, that they think don’t fit feminist standards. I’m with the others who said they screwed up in not looking at these books very closely, or adding notes to the books about why they were picked (and how they can be triggering), and for waiting until the comments to say they were going to be changing/updating this list, but I don’t have a problem with them deciding a book didn’t fit their criteria, which was brought to their attention in the comments. I didn’t read it so much as “this book is triggering, take it off the list” as “this book triggered me, here’s why” and they realized it didn’t fit their criteria. (Haven’t read the book yet so no clue if its feminist or not.)

I definitely appreciate tough books. And I hate book banning. And as someone who has triggers, I’m careful about what I consume. (For instance, I don’t read romance books before, say, 1990 because its more likely to have a nonconsensual - or borderline case - sex scene, and so I research it before I check it out.) But this seems more like they realized a book didn’t fit (which was brought to their attention to be debated because someone was triggered by it) and took it off what appears to be a really random list. It seemed like their hearts were in the right place and they just fucked up the execution, before and after.

It’s not censorship.  And it’s not “ohmigoshdelicatelittleflowersneedingtobeprotectedfromeverything”.  That’s offensive to everyone who has some kind of trigger, or who believes in treating other people with respect.  As a feminist webspace, Bitch magazine tries to be a safe space for its readers.  If anyone wants to know more about trigger warnings and why they’re a good idea, check out the awesome Melissa McEwan at Shakesville here.

I think Bitch’s own comment policy pretty much sums up their stance and the reasons for it:

Dropping your defensiveness, not being dismissive of others, and treating other people the way you want to be treated sometimes seems like a lot to ask for, we know, but our mission in creating a forum for discussion is to keep that discussion useful, thoughtful, and non-alienating to as much of our audience as possible. Will we please everyone? Unlikely. But we can try.

Yes, Bitch messed up in the first place by not reading all of the books on their list.  But I definitely respect that they listened to the concerns of their readers, went and read the books, and then revised the list according to their own reading experience and in accordance with their own rules.

I’m disappointed by this post from SBTB, and a lot of the reactions to it. :(

There are triggers everywhere.  It’s up to me to decide if I am capable of reading the material in question.  Some days I may be able to, other days I will take a pass to preserve my sanity.  I self harm and am in recovery for an eating disorder, there can be some sneaky sly triggers out there.  Hell, some of the books currently listed aren’t something that I could handle reading.

I give myself credit for being savvy enough to read the descriptions and comments of books I am interested in reading.  For example,  I took a look at the list and am going to try ‘Uglies’ even though there is self harm in it but will be giving ‘Wintergirls’ a pass for now due to the anorexia component.  I don’t know about ‘Sisters Red’ but ‘Tender Morsels’ and ‘Living Dead Girl’ are very upfront about what kind of content is included.

If these story components are something that an individual feels would be a trigger then they should stop, think, and choose not to read.  Not complain that others should never recommend the book or that the book should be removed from a list.  Having survived a horrible experience doesn’t give you the right to decide what other people are able to cope with.  Frankly, I find it offensive and patronizing to have somebody judge what I am capable of.  It detracts from my hard won sense of self knowledge and my ability to trust myself to make good decisions.

In other words, let’s just assume that those of us with triggers have a modicum of intelligence and insight.  We’re not broken and we don’t need caretakers.

Yes, Bitch messed up in the first place by not reading all of the books on their list.  But I definitely respect that they listened to the concerns of their readers, went and read the books, and then revised the list according to their own reading experience and in accordance with their own rules.

First off, they listened to the concerns of a tiny minority of their readers and ignored the concerns of a fair greater number of their readers, and secondly, I’m extremely dubious that they were able to read nearly a thousand pages of books and then conduct an unbiased discussion of same and arrive at a sound conclusion in /two days/.

I am walking in late here, I know.  I started reading when this post first came up, and haven’t been back here for a few days.  I thought I’ve talked to every kind of shrink, psychologist, psychiatrist, therapist, counselor, pastor, that was possible, but. . .  I am not getting on board with this trigger thing.  I had a couple of still born babies many years back when no one acknowledged that stuff.  (rH factor)I was depressed for years with no treatement.  Husband never said boo about it.  Cousin, a priest, said , ‘better luck next time.’  Everytime I read a story about a similar incident I cry my eyes out.  Sometimes I still cannot speak about it.  Been on psychoactive meds for years now and I date it back to those losses (and genetics).  In my attempts at writing fiction, I HAD to write about it.  My own writing makes me cry.  I found the receipts from the first baby’s funeral the other day when going through old albums.  Sat crying by myself for at least twenty minutes.  Brings back the sense of loss, but also of people not caring, not noticing, not acknowledging my pain and loss.  I cannot imagine heeding a warning that a book might trigger my feelings cuz it mentions a dead baby.  I cannot imagine avoiding that.  I feel the catharsis is absolutely necessary.  Self-validation, I guess.  But I’m pretty ‘old school’; read:  OLD.  The censorship thing—another whole issue.  Don’t have a stand on that, ‘cept it’s up to the individual what they want to read. Maybe.  Spam filter? next birthday…

Ladies and Gentlemen: Your posting is rape culture in action. This is why rape culture is everywhere, and why barely anyone gives a damn about rape victims: The moment someone does, people like you attack them viciously for it.

Not okay. At all. But I get that you don’t think we count as people…

But you know what’s REALLY empowering to victims?  Acting like they are a monolithic, Borg-like group who all have the same opinion on a particular subject - which is what you’re doing.

There are multiple people on this thread who claim to be rape victims who say they specifically have a problem with the way Bitch handled this post, or a problem with the notion of “trigger warnings” in general.  If we’re going to talk about “not counting [victims] as people,” denying their opinions because they don’t fit in your convenient little narrative about how all rape victims everywhere in the world feel is pretty damn “de-humanizing” to me.

If we’re going to talk about “not counting [victims] as people,” denying their opinions because they don’t fit in your convenient little narrative about how all rape victims everywhere in the world feel is pretty damn “de-humanizing” to me.

Okay.  That comment you quoted is a little inflammatory (I think we’re all feeling a little reactionary on the subject, whatever your opinion), but hyperbole aside, trigger warnings aren’t about conflating Rape Victims as one big monolithic group and saying that Everyone Feels This Way The End.

Trigger warnings?  In the end, they’re just words.  Word that some people, like some of those who’ve commented here, will just dismiss.  But words can do harm, and the old adage about sticks and stones isn’t always accurate.

If there’s a trigger warning on something and it’s not your particular trigger, or it is but you don’t like trigger warnings, then what’s the worst that happens?  You get a little annoyed or offended at the presence of the trigger warning, and then you read on or move on as you prefer.

But if there’s no trigger warning, and it IS your particular trigger and you read or watch something that triggers you?  That can do harm.  Real, lasting, emotional (plus some) harm.

I’d rather go a little overboard on the warnings than unwittingly cause someone harm.  ESPECIALLY on a subject that is such a wide trigger, or that can cause a lot of issues even for people who aren’t ‘triggered’ by that particular thing.

Upon hearing what had happened to the men and realizing what Urrda had inadvertently done the family ships her off to be taught magic. There is no mention of remorse, guilt, or accountability, hell there isn’t even a implication that Urrda is devoting herself to a strict discipline and the implied moral code that comes with it. She just has an awesome life of luxury now with new clothes and cool spells she can waste on presents. Your right it’s not really rape as revenge so much as rape as random event to grind the plot on to it’s next bullet point.  It’s a bad novel and shouldn’t be on any list except maybe a most muddled themes lost or most unresolved bestiality substory.

I will admit that I was ignorant of this publication until you mentioned it here. Their sole criteria seem to have been that these are their favorite books with “kick-ass heroines and inspiring feminist themes”.  I read “Living Dead Girl”, and I’m not sure I’d say it qualifies under those criteria. It is a powerful book, but does it qualify under all three of those criteria? I found it to be horrifying, not inspiring. It’s not a book I’ll revisit nostalgically.  I agree that the authors of the list needed to do more research before putting their list out there… but if it doesn’t have inspiring feminist themes and kick-ass heroines, the book doesn’t belong there. As a librarian I am frustrated to see The True Confessions of Charlotte Doyle next to Living Dead Girl as they are intended for totally different audiences- it’s absurd to lump them into the same category under the label YA.  I’d quibble with the way they defined their criteria more than anything else.

If “thought-provoking” were one of the criteria, I guess I’d have more of a problem with this. But they didn’t even mention quality of writing or creativity as reasons for their choices. If YALSA had published a list like this I’d have a problem with it. But that’s an organization that claims authority to choose the best in YA literature in a number of categories and expends huge amounts of time and energy to do so. 

FWIW, if a list is going to contain books that have obviously controversial material in them, I think there needs to be a way for librarians and readers to be made aware of that. Because at MonsterLibrarian we review horror fiction(a very broad category) we try to always do this. When we publish our top picks list (hopefully soon) we always say that not every book is for every person (this should be obvious, but award winners are often recommended or read because they won an award and not because of content), and link them to our review of the book to allow them to decide what’s appropriate.

At any rate, I don’t think this falls in the same category as the Humble, Texas fiasco. Although I’m starting to really feel for Scott Westerfeld.

This thread has galloped off in many different directions, and is probably running out of steam now (always happens when a thread is no longer on the first page of the blog). 
But just one interesting new thought occurs to me:  some of these classificatory difficulties may be due to the very concept of ‘Young Adult’ fiction.  The whole point of adolescence is that it is a period of continual change and development;  some 14-year-olds are very mature, while others are still children.  In the days when reading graduated directly and sharply from children’s books to those written for adults, the reader him/herself normally made the decision.  Many of us made that transition even before puberty.  But now, there is a whole, enormous genre for adolescents, and many adults read these books as well — and in general, full-grown adults are far more willing to read fairy-tales than they were in the past.  Added to this, very distressing themes involving injustics, pain, suffering and violence are now commonplace in fiction, and are frequently described with a vividness that would often have been subtly veiled 50 years ago.
I think all of this may have made it much more difficult to list ‘appropriate’ fiction for almost any group of readers.
I may be quite mistaken, of course.

Sorry for typo:  I wasn’t logged in, so couldn’t correct it in the post above.  Injustice, not injustics!
:-)

I agree with another poster that the Blue Sword should have been on there from the first. I looove that book. It got me started on fantasy books and was the first adventure I’d read with a believable female lead. I love those kinds of books. That being said…  I haven’t read the contested books from the Bitch list but I definitely believe that that list should be a home to more difficult, thought provoking reads. TBS is a very straightforward heroine/girl-power type fantasy novel.  After reading it I was obsessed with McKinley and read every other book of hers I could get my hands on… and was very surprised. Several of her other books have delved into far more difficult aspects of women’s struggles. For example, Deerskin is a powerful and redemptive book dealing with incest, rape and self healing. When I read it as a naive young woman, Deerskin was both horrifying and eyeopening to me. It made me realize that the heroic, magic tomboy novels are easier to read but that the harder, more uncomfortable stories reveal the kind of strength that real woman have.

Whatever your feelings about the list and its transformations, if Bitch has been meaningful to you, you shouldn’t give up on it now. People need to calm down. They can make a mistake without people going completely ape.

For the life of me I don’t understand why they jumped from complaint to removal.  A simple apology and taking accountability by adding some potential trigger warnings would have been absolutely appropriate and sufficient. The end.

I’ve been thinking about this trigger issue since this was first posted.  I haven’t read Living Dead Girl, or the other books in question, but I have a lot of experience with triggers and being triggered (I was sexually abused and I have ptsd).  I appreciate this conversation, which seems to be winding down, but I think one thing is missing - and that is a recognition that getting triggered is part of the healing process, and I think it’s a necessary part.

Getting triggered isn’t damaging, at least not in my experience. The “damage” has already been done - the trigger unleashes old repressed emotions, so I can let them go.  I don’t enjoy getting triggered, it’s really unpleasant (to put it mildly) to go back and emotionally relive being abused, but it’s good to get those repressed memories and emotions out into the light of day.

I appreciate that we have books that seriously deal with unpleasant and formerly taboo subjects like rape and incest, and I really, really appreciate trigger warnings.  I like being able to decide ahead of time if I feel up to dealing with something that may trigger me (and I do wish more books, and especially movies, came with them - I’m looking at you Magnolia, Monsoon Wedding, and Cider House Rules - all movies that triggered me, two of them on dates).  Not recommending a book *just* because it is triggering seems like a move in the wrong direction.

@cleo.  Thanks for speaking up on this issue.  I posted early stating that reading material containing so called triggers can be cathartic and necessary for some people.  It seems in most cases most people do not want to be triggered.  I am glad I am not alone in feeling these issues should not be swept under the carpet.  I have dealt with specific issues at different times in my life, widely separated in years, and found it is healthier, at least to me, to face it.  Anyway, how can you go through your life avoiding references to things that brought you pain?  I think its dealing with the pain, not the issue at some point.  Well, I have always found the differences of opinion on this website invigorating, although it seems it is usually met with hostility.

I was pretty uncomfortable with this post pre-edit (guess what? High school was triggering for me! And some people don’t survive to read this fine upstanding blog publication) but the discussion is fruitful and helpful. There are some books that are good books that I would not recommend without a trigger warning. Peony In Love absolutely hammered on a few of my major ED buttons. A Tree Grows In Brooklyn was the first book to ever trigger me, and I was 11 years old. They’re both good books. They both deserve to be read, because all books deserve to be read. I wouldn’t blanket-not-recommend them; I warn. All books have the potential to trigger, as some people have said, because not all triggers relate directly to the trauma that caused them. But books with obvious potential to trigger—and it’s not necessarily a lurking horror no one could have predicted; some rape survivors find books like Donkeyskin cathartic, some find them triggering as all balls—do deserve a warning. I will weigh my chances and be well-warned, and that means that I have control of what I read.

@Cleo: Some triggers can be damaging, but all triggers are unpleasant. Sometimes one’s just just sick and overwhelmed and agitated and in fight-or-fight mode for the day, and sometimes (especially with triggers that accompany self-harm, or an eating disorder) one’s life is in danger. All over again. It really varies from person to person, and from situation to situation, but it’s safe to say they’re always something one wants to avoid.

I give people the right to advise me not to read such and such book, or such and such movie or song, and I appreciate the heads-up, but someone preventing me from ever hearing about such and such or wrestling it from my hands is robbing me of my agency. I would stop short of calling it censorship (Bitch isn’t telling libraries not to shelve those books, or stores not to sell them, or publishing houses not to print them) but it’s not cool.

(Also, that should be McKinley’s Deerskin I name up there, damn you, ingrained fairy tale geekery!)

I had never heard of “triggering” before this discussion. Interesting topic.

@Anne Ardeur: Re-read my comment.  The “lumping rape victims together as one group” criticism was directed at the comment I was quoting, for claiming to speak for all victims, and therefore silencing those victims who in above comments have expressed their disagreement with Bitch’s actions in particular or the idea of trigger warnings in general.

I wasn’t saying anything about how I personally felt about trigger warnings.  I agree that they don’t lump victims into one group, which is why that criticism wasn’t directed there.  Trigger warnings are there for a specific subset of victims, and I think that’s obvious.  That being said, I’m not a trigger-warning fan, because I think in some respects the concept of “triggering” has been extended so far that it’s actually doing victims a disservice by discouraging an open dialogue about the prevalence of rape in our culture and its causes and effects.  The way Bitch used it in this list is a perfect example of that, where a book was removed entirely for being triggering, rather than putting a trigger-warning on it and letting people decide for themselves if they could handle that material.

I also think when applied too broadly, trigger warnings serve as an excuse for people who are NOT rape/abuse//war/other trauma survivors, who probably SHOULD be exposed to brutal depictions of what they experience, to just ignore graphic or disturbing material.