Smart Bitches, Trashy Books

I’ve asked Ward a personal question about other non-normative sexualities in her novels and she replied personally to me in ways that suggest that she absolutely knows about how gay her characters are.  I can’t see her having a problem with it.  Her raving fangirls?  Yes, but not her.

I also know from discussion with Suz Brockmann that Ward has talked with her about crazy fangirls, asking for advice on how to deal with them.  Because they both have them.

That being said, I can understand how she would fall victim to her own press—I imagine it would be very difficult to avoid doing so for anyone, if we’re honest with ourselves.  She also hasn’t actually been on the boards recently, as far as I can tell (except for Friday night), so I don’t know how aware she is of all this happening (although she probably is—she’s a complete control freak).

Are people shitty assholes?  Yes.  Can we assume Ward is?  Not me.  I’d need more confirmation, more extended examples of being an idiot, before I stopped buying her books.  But then, I love me some Brotherhood.

Rereading, this came out sounding more defensive of Ward than I meant it to.  Authors behaving badly are fun, that’s for sure, but I don’t see the direct cause-effect right now for Ward, so I’m giving her the benefit of the doubt.

I’d be way shocked to discover J.R. Ward banned anyone, unless this person was obviously causing grief for the sake of being a pain in the ass.  That’s pretty obvious - not a person expressing their opinion, but deliberately being an asshole.  Let’s face it, assholes exist, and they crawl out from under piles of dogshit sometimes - especially when somone is enjoying success just a leetle bit too much.

Not that this is the case here - I haven’t got a clue.

Author message boards aren’t the same as a blog, I don’t think.  I don’t have one, but if I did, I’d set it up so people could talk about my books.  Discuss what’s coming next, what they liked and didn’t like about the books out now.  If someone said they didn’t much care for language or content or whatever, I’d be bummed, because hey, who likes criticism?  But I wouldn’t ban them from the boards - which is why I really can’t think Ward would do so.

Unless, as I mentioned earlier, an asshole crawled out and started hurling dogshit.  Then I’d ban them, because who needs it?  Wouldn’t it be like throwing a party and having someone show up loaded, drunk and obnoxious?  Dude starts dissing me and my house and the other guests, maybe throwing up on somebody’s shoes, he’s so outta there.

I have heard that Ward’s fans are pretty over the top.  *shrugs*  Who knows what’s up?

FWIW, the mods posted this on Thursday:

“In the past couple of days we had two threads removed because of disrespectful content and personal attacks of other members of the board. We will not allow personal attacks or disrespectful posts to stay on the board. They will be removed. If you have questions about the books, or there are scenes in the book that you disliked you have the option of posting about them but your views must be posted in a respectful manner. If you disagree with someone else’s opinion you also can voice your opinion but again, do so respectfully. Several people have been deactivated over this issue on BOTH sides. Disregard for the rules will not be tolerated nor will we tolerate attacks on other members of the board.

“If you cannot be respectful to each other or you feel a post is not respectful, you need to report the offending post to the moderators and not take matters into your own hands. This causes more problems and just adds fuel to the fire. There will be people who join the board just to see if they can start a riot for their own gain and unfortunately that is exactly what happened with this whole situation. What better way to drive traffic to your site than by causing trouble on a very active message board then taking it to your own site to have the throw down.

“ALL of you are guests on this message board. This board is not here for you to bash each other. If you choose not to follow the rules and post your questions and opinions in a respectful manner then you will be removed from the board.

“Finally, why is the board PG13 and the books not? Simply an issue of decorum. And as this is an ADULT membership only board, as adults we should be able to hold conversations WITHOUT using rude and obnoxious language.

“As always, if you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to contact the MODs.”

So, apparently they deleted from both sides of the aisle, if that can be believed.

I can’t wait to see the shitstorm this post dregs up tomorrow when the Cellies (god bless their crazy little hearts) get ahold of this!  ;)  But then I’m a sadistic bitch and I love watching people behaving badly.

Should other readers hold J. R. Ward responsible for the behavior of her rabid fangirls?  I think that is making Ward liable and accountable for every opinion/gush/complaint out there about her books.  I loved Lover Awakened but I know there are others who didn’t.  But I’m not flaming each and every person who disagrees with me. 

That’s the wonderful thing about opinions—everyone has one!  I don’t necessarily have to like yours and you don’t have to like me.  Was the banning and other bad behavior necessary?  Not in my opinion.

I do feel sorry for the reader who was banned.  I wonder if it’s left a bad taste in her mouth for J. R. Ward’s future books.  And I don’t believe Ward can be held accountable for her fans’ actions.  Should she re-think how her board is run?  Definitely.

I don’t know looking at some of the comments on the other blogs it seems that there probably was blame on both sides.

I know some trolls specifically go to boards to stir up trouble.  I know it has happened on ADWOFF. Its a fine line between supporting an author you admire and respect and being rabid.  I think flame wars can sprout up quickly.  Anyway J.R. Ward’s books are still on my TBR pile and I plan to read them.  I don’t think she should be expected to spend all her time patrolling her fanboards.

Forgot to say:
I’m a rabid fangirl of Sarah and Candy - anybody calls you buttnoids, I’ll call ‘em cheap, two-bit ho-bags with bad hair and ugly mothers.

I think a couple of things here:

1)You can’t claim you don’t know that you run that risk if you do post a criticism of any kind on an author’s fan BB.  Sometimes it’s the author themselves crying foul.  You pays your money; you takes your chances.

2) I did see the thread and s/he was warned.  I think it did cross the line from critique to complaint or bashing.  I’ve posting criticisms before and not felt flamed or the like.  It is in how you phrase it.

3) Every author has rabid fans.  We wouldn’t have trekkies, WoW, or Harry Potter without them.  Are JRW’s fans over the edge?  Probably.  But then, she’s a new-er author.  How many Pern fans are still getting together to talk about Dragon sex?  I probably saw a lot of them down in Atlanta recently, but I’m willing to bet that there aren’t nearly as many as there were when McCaffrey’s books were peaking.

4) JRW’s a lawyer… so, she’s probably not going to address this issue.  And I’m not sure she should.  She has moderators (allegedly rabid or otherwise) and they, as far as I know, make the calls.  If I was trying to write and had a BB with even 100 members, I’d want someone else who could be on it all the time to moderate.

And that’s sort of the kicker for me.  I like all the extra tidbits that I get being a member on the boards.  Heck, I’m even a RPG’er and Star Trek fan, so I enjoy the times when her characters “post” to the boards.  But, I basically ignore the people who do not seem to be grounded in reality, who… take it too far.

I don’t think an author should per se be responsible for what goes on in her messageboards (although as an atty, I’m sure Ward knows where those lines are).  But here’s my question:  does a particular author help set a tone for her messageboards, directly or indirectly? 

I understand that some folks just are where they are in terms of extreme fandom, but does an author have ANY influence on the character, nature, tone, and direction of discussions on her boards?  After all, it IS in Ward’s best interest, as an author of books she wants to sell, to have readers buy lock, stock, and barrel into the fictional world she’s created. 

Also, as I love gossip, can anyone explain some of the charges re Ward buying into her own hype?  It’s actually something I’ve wondered about since the second book in the series, but it’s been more of an intuition than anything else.

You know, I commented on some of the stuff I saw in JRW’s first book on another list. Mostly about the way the brotherhood spoke in acronyms. I found it annoying and unbelievable, my opinion. The response I got wasn’t wildly loving. Should have stuck with bashing LKH. Now I hear about this flare up on her boards. I foresee more interesting things to come.

Still, I don’t see how an author can be held responsible for the actions of looney fans. It isn’t reasonable, it isn’t practical, it’s unfair.

But there is a question here - SB Sarah, what would you do if this blog was taken over by people with views you just couldn’t stomach, couldn’t support?

***Also, as I love gossip, can anyone explain some of the charges re Ward buying into her own hype?***

Robin, I don’t understand this question.  I seriously doubt I can answer at any rate - but I want to understand what you’re asking.

Robin, I don’t understand this question.  I seriously doubt I can answer at any rate - but I want to understand what you’re asking.

I have read on a couple of blogs that Ward is “buying into her own hype” (which I assume means letting success go to her head).  Since I’m not really part of all the inside stuff with this series, including thee messageboard, I’m wondering what people mean when they say this.  In other, what are the incidents that lead individuals to say that Ward is “buying into her own hype”?

Stef said:

Unless, as I mentioned earlier, an asshole crawled out and started hurling dogshit.  Then I’d ban them, because who needs it?  Wouldn’t it be like throwing a party and having someone show up loaded, drunk and obnoxious?  Dude starts dissing me and my house and the other guests, maybe throwing up on somebody’s shoes, he’s so outta there.

And Desertwillow said:

But there is a question here - SB Sarah, what would you do if this blog was taken over by people with views you just couldn’t stomach, couldn’t support?

****

I totally agree with Stef, if someone is making an ass out of themselves to the point they’re puking on my carpet, or let’s say, started trying to rip a new asshole into one of my friends, it’s time to kick that person’s ass right out the door. I kind of doubt JRW has the time to notice all the crap going on the BB but if she did see something out of control and asked the moderators to kick some folks out of the party, I’m supportive of that stance. However, if she hadn’t of done that, I wouldn’t fault her or the moderators becuase it’s still her house and her call.

Now, regarding what Desertwillow said, comin’ over to our favorite Bitches house to raise a stink is a whole different matter. It’s kind of like stepping into the toughest bar in the town where hardest, most intelligent, edgiest women love to hang out. Somebody comes over here and tries to start a shitstorm, they’ll find their asses handed back to them on a platter.

(Hey, it’s already happened a few times much to my enjoyment, LOL!)

I broke my vow to not follow links or read a lot of blogshit - way too time consuming, and about as unproductive as eating deep-fried Twinkies.  Still, some days you just gotta eat artery-clogging shit.  Or read pointless BS.  I clicked on Sarah’s link and read something like 150+ comments to the banned fan’s blog.  Whoo damn - what a deal.  Then I thought, well, hell, in for a penny, in for a pound, and clicked on other links about this…what do I call it?  Altercation?

I have no opinion.  Honestly.  I just don’t care.

As for JRW buying into her hype - I suspect she’s a busy little bee, writing her ass off to keep up with a six month production schedule.  These are loooong books. I saw somewhere that there are 3200 people on her boards - that’s just her boards.  Imagine all the email she gets.  Hell, I get just a few a week, and I find it hard to keep up with answering.  So maybe a few fans haven’t been answered and feel snubbed and assume she’s a Big Head who thinks she’s the shit.  Who knows?

And really - who cares?  But then, I’m not big into falling in love with an author - it’s the books I fall in love with.  She/He can be a two-headed giant with a God complex, but if she/he writes great books, I’m there.

Actually, I just lied like a dog.  I know a few authors, personally, whose books I won’t buy because they’re rude and nasty.  But these are people I actually know.  And they’re not Big Heads.  They’re just mean spirited.

Okay, I’ve reached the month’s limit on blog-hopping and comments.  I even wrote a post on my own blog today.  Hell hath surely frozen over!

I leave you all to figure out JR Ward and the altercation and the presence or absence of a head too big.  Me, I’m going to bed. :)

I pose the same question to myself - if we were (un)fortunate to attract a troll, would it be my responsibility to ban and delete that user’s posts until they signed up again under a different user name from a different IP?
******
I don’t think it’s a ‘responsibility’ issue per se.  It’s an issue of how much irritation you want in your daily life.  Unlike many authors, you read the comments at your site everyday.  Think how annoying it would be to have to read trollish crap every day, and then think how much easier it would be to just push the ‘block user’ button instead. 

A personal website is not a democracy - it’s more like an authoritarian state.  You can choose to be a benign dictator (if you like!), but you still get to be dictator.  I wouldn’t go back and delete what’s already been said, but I would block trolls from posting more.

IMO each person is responsible for their own actions, nobody should have to be responsible for crazed fans. 

There are authors I do not like, others I used to like and no longer read.  The answer is simple, if you don’t like it, don’t read it…throw it out in the yard and let the neighborhood dogs pee on it for all I care.  But some fans need to grow up and quit whining.

Should obnoxious fans be 86’d from author websites?  Do whatever you like, it’s your website…fans that don’t like it can go play in a different sandbox.  But please cease the immature whining, unless it’s entertaining.

As far as I know there’s a company JR hired to moderate her forum and they are very serious about it! JR was participating in a workshop I was having and I posted info about it on her board and got a very scathing email about doing promo on the board. Even though JR was participating in the event I was promoting. Go figure.

OK, first my full disclosure: I’m a JRW fan (but certainly not rabid).

Having said that, I can and do separate her books from her fans. I saw the Mod post that Sarah posted above but since I totally missed the thread before it disappeared, I can’t really comment on what happened. I do know other board participants who were involved in another thread deleted for “inappropriate content” and frankly, they were OK with it. Shrug and move on. But I don’t think that one degenerated into personal attacks.

There’s a code of conduct on the board, which people are expected to follow.  If posters feel attacked, they’re supposed to report it. BUT I realise that’s easier said than done. I tend to think there was bad behaviour on both sides because I’ve seen quite a few comments along the same lines as Dylan’s and those threads didn’t get personal. I know other Cellies who love to read gay romances and do titter about some of the brotherly bonding scenes so I’m not sure what made Dylan’s post stand out.

As for JRW answering questions, I’ve always found her quite open and receptive. She has answered two of my e-mails and most of my questions on blogs without knowing who I am. (And I’ve seen people remind her about their questions when she misses them so maybe Holly should have done that, too.) I agree she’s more responsive to some long-time members/frequent posters on the board but really, does she have time to personally welcome each and every member? I don’t think she is deliberately exclusionary. I’ve seen people with only 1 or 2 posts to their names whose questions have been answered personally by JRW.

What I do find appalling are some of the comments on the blogs by self-avowed Cellies, who have continued with the personal attacks. I think it smacks of the mob mentality and makes me cringe and frankly, feel a bit sorry for JRW that she’s being associated with this behaviour.

If JRW was an author who had a minimal online presence I wouldn’t find her silence at all odd or insulting. Since she DOES post on the board and she HAS an active online presence, I feel (and this is just my opinion) that she should have called off those rabid fans. And she could have, make no mistake about that. I feel that if she can come out from behind her her busy schedule to “play” with her fans, then she can do the same when some of her fans are treated like shit. That’s all I’m holding her responsible for. Not for their terrible behavior. Never that.

As for the MOD’s retarded accusation that I posted to get traffic for my blog…nice conspiracy theory and a way to explain away your own disgusting behavior, but not true. I’m not selling anything or promoting anything so why should I care if I get one hit or one million hits? It’s a blog people, not a store that if I pulled in traffic, I might sell more of something.

What should have been something small blew up into something ugly for no reason. All Dylan did was post a few questions and comments to an author about things she wanted answered about LA. If she came off as rude, THAT should have been addressed. Privately, by the MOD’s. Instead, she was allowed to be attacked for three pages worth of posts and then banned before the thread was deleted. That I thought was wrong. Especially since it all happened before she had a chance to go back and defend herself. And I’m entilted to that opinion. I’m not asking you to feel the same way. I’m just saying I’m allowed to think the way the MOD’s and the “cellies” went about things was dead wrong.

And if the Smart Bitches began censoring their posters what a sad and less-colorful world it would be! But then, I don’t believe in censoring. If I did I have deleted at least 100 out of the 126 nasty comments left by JRW’s loving “cellies” on my blog. One of which even suggested that “Z” should kill Dylan.

I believe the SBs have the right to throw out anyone they believe is behaving badly.  This is your space.  You set it up, you’re paying for the bandwidth, and as has been pointed out, it’s like some obnoxious drunk coming over and trashing your house.

I work in other forums and there seems to be a misconception that blogs and forums are subject to First Amendment and freedom of the press rules, and that’s simply not true. I prefer the benevolent dictatorship analogy.

And I like my mental image of Candy doing some wire-fu high kicks upside some rude person’s head.

I personally hate rabid fangirls. i hate lemminglike behavior of any kind. No one is perfect, and we all screw up. So blind adoration annoys me.

My opinion is if it’s your site and someone is acting like a total ass, you do have the right to edit posts, but then where does it end? Removing or editing posts, no.

But telling your RFGs to act like people, yes. If they worship you that much, they’ll chill the hell out. As an author, you don’t want to alienate ANYONE who might buy your stuff.

the toughest bar in the town where hardest, most intelligent, edgiest women love to hang out.

Smart Bitches is the place where the cool kids are? Do that mean I finally get to be cool?

(Sorry, I have nothing to add.  Just want to follow the thread!)

“Does” not “do” - what an idiot.  See?  Still not cool, not even here.

*sigh* Okay I was one of the girls banned from JR’s site. Hmmm, not going to go all into it again. Just wanted to say that your post was very well writen and the comments were very respectful. Wish it were like this everywhere. lol. But hey, the worlds not perfect. I’m not about author love as someone said either. The only time I go to their boards is if I need clarification on something in their books. Sooooo just for the record: Dylan was not just stiring up shit. And JR should have control of her own board, and if she doesn’t? She should take it down. Let the rabid fans make their own MB then it won’t reflect on JR cause it’s not on her site.
Oh and if you want to read the post Dylan had posted that started it all? Go here:  http://sanctuarysbookblog.blogspot.com/2006/09/secret-underground-cult-nopejust-some.html

Having followed this from the beginning and even before, the posters banned ARE big fans of J.R. Wards’s books.  It’s not like they went there to diss on them.  Dylan had a few questions - being a fan and all.  And though I missed what the fans had to say to her - I will NEVER visit an author message board I have to actually register for - I am able to separate the books from the author and will never get that invested in an author to the extent rabid fan girls do, it seems they took it way beyond rational limits.  As to the author herself, she seems like a very nice person who is attentative and caring to her fans, I do think her and other authors with over the top fans should step in once in a while and say to the more “enthusiastic” ones - hey - chill for a bit.  I think they should do that for their own protection. Rabid, over the top fans can do some pretty nasty damage to an author’s reputation me thinks.  And that’s too bad because it’s not the fans that would feel the fallout of their own nasty behaviour.

I don’t know how J.R. Ward’s board is set up. On ADWOFF there are many sections, many threads under those sections. I’d never get anything done if I read all of them daily, or even now and again. There are a specific few I visit, and one I go into daily—or nearly—to answer specific questions.

Posters occasionally get cranky, or downright confrontational. Mods usually cool things down. I will, if it seems appropriate or required, post a comment or opinion crafted to do the same.

It isn’t my board, but a fan-generated board where I participate. Even if it was mine, run by me, I don’t know how I might control a flame-war. I’m thinking deleting the posts would be a last resort. Locking the thread would probably come first. But I don’t really know the ins and outs of running a MB.

I do know that as a writer I don’t feel—and don’t want to be expected to feel—responsible for the actions or the posts of my readers for good or ill. Certainly on a board about my books, where I have a presence I’d try to put out the flames—if I were around to do so. Not always around though. I don’t know Ward, but I don’t imagine she’s always around either.

I’d also like to say that imo everyone’s a buttnoid now and then. Otherwise, life would be pretty dull. Cyberworld would certainly be much less entertaining without regular scoopings of buttnoidyess behavior.

Hi Mrs. Roberts. Thank you for your input. I feel the same way as you, only you expressed it more eloquently than I have.

I don’t expect JRW to put herself in the center of a flame war. But, on the same hand, she IS active on her board, which is why I feel she should have stepped in and calmed things. She had the power to do exactly that, since, as one member said, when JRW says she likes Tito Ortiz (for example) of the UFC, suddenly her members are fans of his as well. That shows me she has influence there and she chooses to remain silent as many of her members are intimidated and bullied by her MOD’s and by her more rabid fans.

Thank you again! Your opinion is much appreciated.

I like how Tyler refers to buttnoidyess coming from La Nora as eloquent ;)

So what’s a Cellie?

Do you think it’s worth hiring rabid fan girls to get some buzz? (heh. my verification word is “plant84”)

P.S. I’d put in yet another “yah, don’t you mess with my bitches,” but the bitches don’t need no steenkin hired guns. They are the pros. If I want someone torn a new one, I’d hire Candy or Sarah to do the job. (In fact I have begged Candy and she came charging over the hill like the US Cavalry she is.)

Yeah, what is a Cellie?  And what, for that matter, is ADWOFF?  (Jesus, I can no way keep up with all this MB telegraphy—ROFLMAOTSETUNG.)

Hmm, I forgot what the AD stands for, but the rest is

With
Out
French
Fries

I think.

La Nora rocks, yes?

As for people who are buttnoids online, this is my favorite reference. Sometimes the funniest part is how predictable these assholes are.

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/

A Day With Out French Fries.

Ah, thanks Other Stef who is a Mistress.  I admit, it was bugging me that I couldn’t remember.

Speaking of french fries….

Well, since my blog got linked, I guess I’ll clarify a bit.

Cellie’s aside, I’m thinking as much about her mods on that board.

The reason why I think the author should take some responsibility in this mess, is because the board exists on her “offical” and, I’m assuming, authorized website.  It’s not fan owned.

I get she’s busy but, since someone mentioned Rowling, I doubt even she would be so busy as to not reign it in somehow. 

Simply because it’s bad PR.

Her silence says she’s ok with her mods speaking for her. That mean’s they’re representing her.

Yes some would say there is no such thing as “bad” pr, but if someone is misrepresenting me, it’s not just bad pr- it’s bad business and said representers should be told to calm it down.

That’s all.

Oh and I stand by assertion that an author bb is simply a bad idea ... blog? not so much.  BB?  RUN AWAY!

hey i’ll give Ward the bennie- maybe she DID talk to her mods?

I don’t visit the board, but I’ll be interested in knowing whether it calms down any ...

but what about the meaning of a CELLIE?

Don’t make me go all ballistic on your asses, people.

A “cellie” is a self-tagged name for a member of J R Ward’s bb.

She’s the WARDen and they are her Cellies.

*cough*

So the Cellies are zellies….

Am I the only one who is now thinking of words that rhyme with cellie?

Jelly
Belly
Telly
Smelly
Deli
Shelly
Banana Fanna Fo Fanna

If only I could haiku…..

I don’t know whether anyone can blame an author for his/her fans’s reactions (including mass hysteria) unless the author him/herself is fanning the flames.

My understanding is that JRWard is paying a company to set up and run the board. Yes, she participates, and more often than say, Suzanne Brockmann does on her own BB. Does that mean JRWard should monitor the forum constantly and nip in the bud any unseemly behaviour? I would think that’s what she hired the company for, isn’t it? From where I sit, JRWard responsibility ends with setting up the basic format and tone of the forum with the company she hired to run it.

(I will say though that for a forum with some 3300+ registered users, having only two moderators is asking for trouble. Those people have to sleep and eat and have those elusive things known as ‘lives’—there’s just no way two people can monitor all the threads sprouting all over the place 24/7.)

spam foiler: should11

I don’t really think the core issue here is whether Ward should be accountable or responsible for what her fans do on her own site’s messageboard.  I think it goes to how an author is involved in shaping his or her own public persona.  So while I don’t hold Ward responsible for out of control fans per se, I think it’s interesting that a woman who was described in this thread as a “control freak” is involved in this kind of situation.  Somewhere there’s a disconnect.

Some authors are really good at spinning their own publicity and some aren’t.  But IMO, either through passive or active involvement in the creation and perpetuation of their own public image, they DO play a role in the shaping of that image.  Whether Ward is involved in the policing of her board or her mods, she’s a presence.  How could she not be?  Her work is the reason for the existence of those boards. 

I don’t think she necessarily should be chastizing her mods in the forum itself, nor do I think she should or could conceivably be held responsible for the flame wars on her own boards.  BUT, I would think, logically speaking, that a woman who is a “control freak” wouldn’t be unaware of what’s going on.  And whether or not it’s reflective of her true position on things, I do think her silence sends a message.  What kind of message that is will depend on the listener, I guess.  But it’s baffling to me why any author would want such vitriol connected to her name, regardless of the source.  The list of those authors who seem to have a high tolerance for such drama as directly connected to their websites and therefore their public voice (beyond their work) yields some interesting names.  It’s difficult for me to believe that Ward would feel comfortable on that roster, but I guess anything’s possible.  Of course it’s also possible that she simply doesn’t yet know how to control or direct her own spin (although her advertised professional background wouldn’t logically lead me to that conclusion).  Maybe she’s just hoping it will all die down before she figures out how to handle these types of outbreaks in the future.  Since she has a medical and a legal background, maybe she’s working on some kind of anti-venom or anti-viral solution. 

As someone who does spin control for a living, I’d advocate for early intervention, but not being a member of that MB, I can’t discern whether she’s already tried that and found it to be unworkable.

I want to get me some crazed fangirls.

All my readers seem so nice and normal.  *Sigh*  Must be my writing style.

I’m neither an author nor a board moderator, however let me toss in my two cents.  First, it seems there is general agreement that no author is responsible for the behavior of his/her fans.  So, the concern is coming from the perception that silence implies acceptance of this flame war that occurred on a board that Ms. Ward has running through her site.  However, I suggest that board silence may be Ms. Ward wanting the mods to take care of it - she may well having been emailing or otherwise contacting them to make sure they were aware and were addressing the issue.  Ms. Ward may well have wanted all of that to be taken care of by the mods, so that they continue to be viewed as the people taking care of issues rather than having people turn to her for such resolutions - or for appeals of mod decisions.

If hosts start having to babysit folks who come to their site and make offending/dumb/inappropriate comments, it’d never end. If it becomes out of hand, you just send an e-mail to the guy/gal and threaten to send them chicken blood by the mail. Works every time.

It’s like if you host a party at your house and 250 people show up, you can’t be expected to check who said what to whom and when and using what sort of tone… that’s the other guests’ job.

Who’s J.R. Ward, anyway?

Ever complain about something “Outlander” on a Diana Gabaldon board? Talk about a feeding frenzy ...

Several years back I expressed my distaste for Brianna and was promptly torn to shreds by rabid DG fans. Albiet in the midst there were a few who were rational, but the rabids overwhelmed the discussion I had tried to create.

Now, this wasn’t a site moderated by DG or anything but it’s the same principal. The fans are not a reflection of the author, and perhaps the thread was shut down just because it was too hot and ruined it for rabid fangirls who aren’t normally rabid but just can’t resist responding to a troll as opposed to just ignoring.

Did Ward post a follow-up message warning of bad behaviour? If not, as moderator she really should have taken that upon herself.

... or rather, ruined by rabid fangirls who otherwise aren’t rabid.

Me have bad day & me write good.

A.M.Hartnett said,

Did Ward post a follow-up message warning of bad behaviour? If not, as moderator she really should have taken that upon herself.

JRWard is not a moderator in her forum. She does post there, but she is not a moderator herself.

The moderators did post a warning/explanation on the deletion of two threads related to the latest kerkuffle—Sarah F. posted it up-thread.

Robin, I myself wonder at the control freak comment about JRWard—just as I wonder about the whole “she buys her own hipe” thing. True, I’ve only read the three Brotherhood books a couple of weeks ago, and joined the board shortly after, so I’m definitely not up to date on any history of freakish behaviour on either JRWard’s part or the moderators’s.

(spamfoiler: think18 ha!)

Thanks to the people who responded to my question. I have no doubt that SB Sarah and SB Candy would kick ass and take names if any trolls, buttnoids, or napolis tried to stage a coup.

But this JR Ward and rabid fangirls has gotten me thinking: I still don’t think JR should be held responsible for the behavior of people who think they are her fans but now I ask myself - if it were my writing career, my PR, my fan base - wouldn’t I want to take responsibility and hose the out of control crazies down a little? And yes, I can see some problems with that and where it could backfire but I wouldn’t want people to go crazy and drive off new business. 

I’m just saying….

OK, I felt the need to say some thing as a rabid fangirl.

a) I have problems with the boards. Namely the mods. I feel that they are overly biased and unfair in their judgements.

b) The mods did the right thing in this case. I didnt directly see it, but a few friends told me about it, and it basically degenerated into a mud slinging contest, cursing on all sides.

c) The board has a PG-13 rating. The mods stick to this zealously, and that was the main reason I feel the thread we deleted. It went way over the line in that department.

d) Should the participants have been banned? Hell no. As someone who was banned and was obsessed enough to get back on, its a pain in the ass. And frankly, they were kicked off for unfair reasons. (I think I was too, btw. I got booted for being 15)

e) JR Ward is not a moderator in her board. She often gets in trouble with the mods herself. She has never posted when there is a large disagreement on the boards like this. She tends to stay out of them as much as she can.

I do not think an author is responsible for controlling his/her fans. What they do on their own time is their buisness. Would they do as JR asked if she told them to stop? Probably. But I really do not think it is her decision to make, not when she has books due every 3 months (she writes under two names) and moderators she hired to perform that task for her.

(PS, sorry if I offended anyone. That seems to be happening a lot in other discussion about this)

I am not offended at all, FormerlyNightSong, but I wonder… How is it unfair to be banned from a board that clearly states that you must be over 18 to be a member... when you admit you are 15?

I felt it was unfair because I signed up for the boards May 4th. At that time there was an option for members who were under 18 to go through, which basically got permission from your parents to be on the boards. I did that option, got permission, and was later kicked off. So I found that to be unfair and very misleading.

I think I must have a pretty short attention span.  I am tickled when I read a great story.  I may blog about it and gush about it to friends.  I also check out authors sites for new releases and order them as soon as possible when I love a book/series. 

But I don’t understand how people can repeatedly visit and revisit some of these messages boards turning themselves into rapid fans just waiting for the opportunity to pounce on someone who does not equally love said piece of fiction. 

Once I am done with a story I am usually quickly lured away by other books. I just don’t have the patience to continuely live in a particular fictional world.  The more time spent on a single book/series that I have already completed, is less time reading new books. 

I guess I am a lovem and leavem book slut or else I am easily distracted by shiny objects.  I just don’t get it.

I guess that makes me a book slut, too.  Hell, sometimes I even trade off between two or three different books, depending on what I feel like reading at any particular time.

I may be loyal enough to a series or author to auto-order, but I have never become so blindly devoted that I am incapable of seeing their flaws. The rabid fans who insist that their book/author/tv series is flawless often seem to be more in love with their own idea of the book/author/tv series than the actuality.

I’ve read Ward, and I like her series.  It’s campy, and chock full of the hoyay.  And, yeah, there is something really silly about a bunch of pale-ass, gigantic whiteguys rollin around the hood (are things that different in upstate NY?) throwing ninja stars and stomping on bad guys while listening to Tupac and Ludacris. 

But, hey, like Ed Wood (or Johnny Depp, as Ed Wood) said, “Haven’t you ever heard of suspension of disbelief?”.  Yes, Ed/Johnny, I have.  It’s essential gear for any trip to Camp.

In my opinion, J.R. does have some responsibility with what goes on on the boards.  As I recall, she’s listed as the administrator (J. Bird), so doesn’t that mean that she is ultimately the one that runs the site?  And plus, as a lurker there myself, I do know that she is a VERY active participant, sometimes visiting and posting messages several times a day.  I also know that she’s visited other sites and message boards where discussions of her books have been going on, and she’s always been more than happy to post on those.  I’m even willing to bet my money that a few of the “cellies” have pm’ed or e-mailed her to death about the incident and what’s being said about her and the mods.  This is why I find it so unappealing that she hasn’t stepped up and addressed this issue…surely she knows that she’s been the talk of the town this past few days.  I hate to say it, but my opinion of her is slowly going down the tubes.  Just yesterday, she was on the boards raving about how much her “cellies” rock and how fabulous and understanding they are….muah, muah, muah *sigh* 
When I first joined the boards, I noticed right away that some of the members weren’t playing with a full deck.  I actually felt kinda bad for Ward.  I mean, how annoying can it be when you mention that one of the characters drinks Grey Goose and then suddenly, everyone and their mother has to stock their cabinets full of the stuff.  I stopped feeling bad for her a while ago.  It seems to me that she actually doesn’t mind it at all….If I had to say, she revels in it.  Keep in mind that this is only my opinion based on her responses.
I honestly don’t think any changes to the boards are coming anytime soon, but if she had any kind of sense she would at least fire those unfair mods.

Natalie, like your point about hostess and party.  My sister invited a few friends over for her 40th B-day.  She later heard those friends invited other friends, people she didn’t like and did not want to share her special day hostessing. So she cancelled the party and she and hubby went out to dinner (ie made sure they were absent at party time). 

Moral of the story…if your friends associate with rabid fangirls, cancell the party.  Isn’t that what happened to JRWard?

BTW…WARDen & cellies?  Eeeewh, please.

OMG, speaking of author websites I just read Gail Dayton’s.  She was recently notified that Luna will NOT be publishing her third Rose book (as previously advertised in March 2007).

As previously speculated by SB, clearly Harlequin is whack.  Since Luna is their only line that I read even occasionally, they have probably seen the last of me as a customer.  Should I bother writting to tell them so?

As previously speculated by SB, clearly Harlequin is whack.  Since Luna is their only line that I read even occasionally, they have probably seen the last of me as a customer.  Should I bother writting to tell them so?

OMG, yes!  From what I understand, Harlequin is actually one of the publishers that does actively solicit and pay attention to reader feedback in its publishing choices.

Just yesterday, she was on the boards raving about how much her “cellies” rock and how fabulous and understanding they are….muah, muah, muah *sigh*
When I first joined the boards, I noticed right away that some of the members weren’t playing with a full deck.  I actually felt kinda bad for Ward.  I mean, how annoying can it be when you mention that one of the characters drinks Grey Goose and then suddenly, everyone and their mother has to stock their cabinets full of the stuff.

Obviously Ward is comfortable enough with this scenario to keep it going on a site she owns and runs—at least for now.  On the one hand, I can see how she wouldn’t want to alienate a very enthusiastic fan base, but if her reputation suffers on a wider scale, I would think she’d be aware of that and maybe adjust her approach.  Who knows what’s going on behind the scenes, even now. I think this is one of those ‘time will tell’ scenarios.

Whoever mentioned “Ed Wood” nailed the feeling I have for the Brotherhood books.  They’re campy and mostly fun, eeven though my reactions to them have been mixed.  I can’t take them too seriously, I find aspects of them over the top, I see them as pretty traditional despite all their purported world building, and I am already growing tired of certain things about the brothers and the prospect of however many more books (how many permutations of the same formula can Ward/Bird sell me on?). Phury is really the only brother I’m actively curious about right now, although I’m hoping Butch’s story offers up a different view of the Brotherhood’s world, especially since he is not fully integrated into it yet.  At this point, I’m hoping for one big brotherhood orgy to dissipate all that manlove energy.

Yeah DL,

It’s not the hosts’ job to provide the fun (or lack thereof) but the guests’. That being said, that author is enjoying publicity right now, even if it’s not necessarily about her work or the “right” kind of publicity, and I guess that’s all that counts. We’re all talking about her, all been to her site (I have, anyway…I didn’t even know who she was).

So is this a controversy now? Man, I wish I had one of those! You can’t buy these things, you know. They’re a wild beast, and when one happens to you, you hang on and ride the wave!

Okay, I want a controversy. Let me see, I like bunnies on toast. There you go. Nathalie is eeeveel…can I have rabid fangirls now?

The rabid fangurlz were bad enough; I see enough of the capslock emo in middle-schoolers. I agree that an author is not responsible for emotionally overwrought fans, but…

“Phury” as a character name? White gangsta paranormals? “Overwrought” works as an adjective here, too, as does “silly.” Seems to me, books like that get the fans they deserve.

Nancy Gee said,

Seems to me, books like that get the fans they deserve.

My apologies but… what?

I am taken aback that this sentence—enough so that I can’t quite put my reaction to words coherently.

Crazy people have read, and become obssessed with, great works of literature as well—do those books deserve that too?

Sorry, can’t follow that logic.

‘Crazy people have read, and become obssessed with, great works of literature as well—do those books deserve that too?’

Right on, azteclady…The Catcher in the Rye is practically the Psycho’s Bible. That’s like blaming Jodie Foster for John Hinkley’s behavior.

As someone who thinks J.R. Ward is responsible for the actions of the members of her board, I thought I’d share my thoughts as well.

As others have said, I hold her partially responsible because she is an Admin of her board, and she spends quite a bit of time there.  Can she control the behavior of other people?  No, of course not. No one can. 

But she could address this publicly, letting the more zealous Cellies know that while she loves them, yada, yada, certain behavior isn’t acceptable.  It’s a direct reflection on her if her fans behave badly.  Perhaps it shouldn’t be, but there it is.

Just yesterday, she was on the boards raving about how much her “cellies” rock and how fabulous and understanding they are….muah, muah, muah *sigh*

She was also on the board saying/doing this the day after the “incident” with Dylan and Jazz.  So I find it very, very hard to believe that she had “no knowledge” of what happened.

I guess what it comes down to, in my mind, is that all fans should be treated equal *g*.  Why is it ok for her regular posters to jump all over a new member, but it isn’t alright for the new member - who also happens to be a fan, btw - to state her thoughts and opinions? 

By keeping silent, this is the message I get from Ward.  I also get the impression, and perhaps I’m biased now, that had Dylan’s original post been “OMG!OMG!I LOVE YOU! I LOVE YOU!” Ward herself would have responded.

I still say she’s at least partially responsible.  As I said on our post, if this was a publisher/fan created site, that was moderated by the publisher/fans, I wouldn’t hold Ward responsible.  But it isn’t.  Ward is the Admin and she’s a regular poster.  Therefore, it’s a direct reflection of her when things like this happen.

In my own, quiet, middle-aged chick sort of way, I’m a total fangirl of JRW’s books.  I can’t remember the last time I actually paid attention to a release date and went to the store on that date, specifically to buy the book.  September 5, I was at B&N, buying Lover Awakened.  I’ve read a few vampire romances, but only a few.  It’s not the vampire element, or the vocabulary, or anything other than the romance that I enjoy about these books.  I’ve read nit-picky reviews about them, and sometimes concur with a lot of the comments.

But I don’t care.  The woman has a talent for writing romance.

I’ve never been to her message boards.  I looked at her website once, after I read the first book.  It’s just not in me to be rabidly obsessed with an author, or her books.

It is in me to seek out good reads - and in my honest opinion, her books are very good.

LOL, Azteclady! Mine was an admittedly gut reaction, not logical at all. That’s what I get for posting just before bed. The word “deserve” did not convey my thoughts properly. No one deserves ill-mannered, overly protective fans.

I’m coming from a feeling that “out there” books with more bizarre plots and characters could well attract a more “out there” fan base.

And yes, indeed, even the most serious mainstream literature can attract strange individuals who go overboard in their devotion, but I seldom see emotional group disputes that spill over into public forums.

I do wonder how much the nature (in terms of genre, concept, or content) of any given book influences the emotional climate of its fan base. Would a more mainstream romance writer see the same emotional firestorm among their fans?

Just my $1.50 I think it’s a mistake for authors/celebs to sponsor bulletin boards. They always run into this kind of trouble.

The freaks vs. the geeks and the whole compettion to impress the celeb in question.

Case in point, the BillyBoyd.net bulletin board. That board imploded under it own weight and was taken off the site. Mostly due to the shitty attitude of the the “regulars” self titled “The Loons” These were the freaks that ruined their own good time.

Authors/Celebs who admin thier own boards fan the flame wars. That quickly disentegrates until the authors own reputation is in shreds.
You ARE known by the company you keep.

I’ve picked up J.R. Wards Lover Awakened on the recomendation on AAR review. and was going to start it this week but after hearing that the author is one of those celebs who by all apperences gets off on having her fans fight over her. Meh maybe i’ll save it for later in the year and start Anthony Bourdain’s new one.

Nancy Gee, I’m honestly not trying to pick on you personally, but the idea that a book is responsible for people’s reactions to its contents. You said,

I’m coming from a feeling that “out there” books with more bizarre plots and characters could well attract a more “out there” fan base.

Not to get religious, but see who has read the New Testament and what they have done with it. You’ll find people devoting their lives to help others, to the education, health, protection, feeding of others… and you’ll help people who would, in the name of the same God, kill all those who don’t believe as they do.

Thinking that certain books foster certain behaviours leads, in my mind, to the idea that censoring such books is a good idea. I don’t like that myself.

On the other hand, are authors responsible for fanning the fires of zealotry in their readers? Some of them are, I’m sure. Authors are people, after all. And some people have enough class to share, and others wouldn’t know what to do with it if it smacked them in the ass. Which of these JRWard is, I don’t know.

But she could address this publicly, letting the more zealous Cellies know that while she loves them, yada, yada, certain behavior isn’t acceptable.  It’s a direct reflection on her if her fans behave badly.  Perhaps it shouldn’t be, but there it is.

Had it been my job to advise her in the manner of the job I do have to advise on issues of public perception and reception, this is exactly what I would have suggested.  The logic behind that advice would be twofold: to set a tone for the “cellies” to respect and follow, and to indicate to her wider and more moderate readership that she respects and welcomes them, as well (and more subtly to indicate her own emotional distance from her more protective fans).  Because even if her moderate reader base isn’t active on her MB, they’re reading ABOUT her on blogs like this one and Dylan’s.

I’ve picked up J.R. Wards Lover Awakened on the recomendation on AAR review. and was going to start it this week but after hearing that the author is one of those celebs who by all apperences gets off on having her fans fight over her. Meh maybe i’ll save it for later in the year and start Anthony Bourdain’s new one.

Miri, I am like you and get turned off by the rapid fans and on line bitch slapping. It does affect my reading choses.  As I stated earlier, I just don’t have the devotion/attention span for these online worship sites.  I try not to let authors misbehavior affect my choices, but they ultimately do.  Staying away from their blogs and forums when they get heated is a good way to stay oblivious.  There are a few authors that I quit reading just because of their on line antics.  - That is a shame.

I am the owner of a web design firm and I cannot tell you how many clients I dissuade from using message boards/forums.  They clearly have a use for some, but frankly it is my experience they can cause a lot of trouble and grief.  Being able to communicate in a faceless world brings out the rudness/bad behavior in some of the most normally behaved people.  Most people are raised and taught how to interact in public.  It is not usually socially acceptable to be an asshat to strangers, but on the web all bets are off because people feel protected behind their online personalities.

As to the question of whether an author is responsible for their “zellie cellies”.  I say ultimately yes.  The author has made the decision to provide and pay for the message board.  When you provide this type of public forum you will get the crazies.  You will have people who feel included and loved and those who will get offended and leave.  The author needs to weigh the potential gain of readers against the potential loss of readers.  I have not visited the site, but gather that people have been offended and are being vocal about it.  I am assuming (maybe wrongly) that Ward is aware of the situation and has decided to keep a low profile.  This may be a smart move, but then again it may backfire in her face.  I suspect right now she is finding it better to side with her cellies, but if enough people complain and she is a good business woman she will go into damage control.  She may also not be a good business women and let her ego and adoration of her loving fans ruin a good thing.  Time will tell.

I actually love her books and really don’t want to find out she has no class.

Azteclady-
Oh, goodness, no! Censorhsip is an abomination.

I’m not saying that the *book* is responsible at all, but that certain personality types are more vulnerable to excesses of devotion, and that when they come across a book/film/politician/philosophy that they feel “speaks” to them, they will buy in to it and give up any independent or critical thinking. (Not talking about the mentally ill obsessive, here, but those who would just go overboard with the fannishness.)

The book itself is only a book. It’s the variety in reader response that interests me. Why do some texts or authors generate the kind of flame war we’ve just seen? Do some subjects attract the kind of (otherwise ordinary)people who more willingly engage in that kind of kerfluffle? I’m postulating that texts outside the mainstream will.

I appreciate your help here - I need the feedback in order to sort this out in my own head. :)

Because even if her moderate reader base isn’t active on
her MB, they’re reading ABOUT her on blogs like this one and Dylan’s.

That’s exactly the point I was trying to make.  By encouraging certain types of fans (even if only by remaining silent) she’s alienating other fans, and in the long run, that could really hurt her.

The book itself is only a book. It’s the variety in reader response that interests me. Why do some texts or authors generate the kind of flame war we’ve just seen? Do some subjects attract the kind of (otherwise ordinary)people who more willingly engage in that kind of kerfluffle? I’m postulating that texts outside the mainstream will.

Personally, I think the authors themselves tend to do this. Not in all cases, but not too long ago, I put up a post about this on our site.  Do authors go too far?  I have to wonder if they don’t pander to the more “Overzealous” people by creating online worlds, or trying to bring their characters to life.

Hmm, I’m not sure if I explained myself very well.  I suppose it just seems that this type of “rabidness” seems to happen more often with authors that really go overboard in trying to bring their characters to life.

Here’s the post I’m referring to:

http://sanctuarysbookblog.blogspot.com/2006/06/how-much-is-too-much.html

You can see what I mean there.

The thing is, Nancy Gee, Suzanne Brockmann attracts just the same type of fans and she hasn’t created the same type of world.  IMO, it’s the guys.  It’s all about the type of MEN that are created by the authors, not the world they inhabit.  Swoon-worthy, completely alpha, completely in-charge, completely under the spell of their women—that’s what’s attracting these fans (myself included, I might add), not the silliness of Phury and completely white guys listening to rap (also guilty, I might add again, except for the guy part).

Sarah F - I’ll bow to your expertise, then, and accept that it may be the hero type evoking the fan reaction. It would certainly explain why I haven’t come across this kind of group behavior before, because I tend to avoid that kind of characterization for the male love interest.

I’ve barely dipped a toe into the romance waters, and assumed that fan etiquette would be fairly consistent throughout the genre. Apparently not!

It’s all about the type of MEN that are created by the authors, not the world they inhabit.

This was my thought, as well, Sarah.  And it’s an interesting case of transference, almost, where the most intense fans adopt the extreme territorial protectiveness toward the series and the author that the Brotherhood exhibit toward their mates and their brethren.  Although so many Romance readers seem to identify with the heroine, IMO this is one instance where it’s the hero who has that role—perhaps because he has so much power within the world of the novels?

BTW…WARDen & cellies?  Eeeewh, please.

I’ve read the Warden / Cellies thing like a hundred times and I just got it.

Robin,

Maybe I’m defective in some way, but I’ve never identified with a heroine (okay, not true—I can remember one: SEP’s Phoebe in “It Had to be You”)—I’m way more interested in the hero and in following him on his journey.

And most of my romance reading friends are the same.  Identification with the heroine is just not high on our list of why we read the books.

I think this holds true for a lot of authors—or at least the ones I read—and their fan base:  Linda Howard’s most zealous fans are zealous over the men (“After the Night,” “Mr. Perfect,” the Mackenzie books).  Same with SEP.  We don’t go all gooey over whatsername the scientist—no, we want Cal, or Bobby Tom.  Hell, same with Georgette Heyer or even Austen, although to a slightly lesser degree.  It’s all about Dameral (sp?) and Sylvester for me, or Darcy and Wentworth, although I’ll admit the female characters are slighty more interesting here too.

So, anyone else out there more interested in identifying with the females than in following the males?

Maybe I’m defective in some way, but I’ve never identified with a heroine (okay, not true—I can remember one: SEP’s Phoebe in “It Had to be You”)—I’m way more interested in the hero and in following him on his journey.

And most of my romance reading friends are the same.  Identification with the heroine is just not high on our list of why we read the books.

I don’t see it as a choice between identifying with the heroine or “following the hero,” Sarah.  I think you’re absolutely right that many Romance readers are more hero-centric, and that a hero makes or breaks a Romance for them.  But I still think that dynamic—reading for the hero, is different than putting oneself in the hero’s position in regard to the series and the author.  Because part of the way we, as readers, experience the hero, is through the position of the heroine as the object of his love and attention. 

There do seem to be some readers who overtly need to identify with the heroine, which is where I think a lot of the incredibly high standards for heroine behavior come from, and other readers who don’t need to make an overt identifying connection to the heroine.  But what I don’t see is most readers of Romance actually taking on the hero’s characteristics or putting themselves in the position of the hero in regard to the books.  And yet in this case, the fans that some people refer to as “rabid” (I’m really uncomfortable with that terminology, no matter how zealous they may be) seem to be actually embodying the roles of the Brotherhood as mediators between Ward and the series.  Does that make sense to you, or do you see it differently?

I have to find the hero attractive and interesting to follow, but I also have to find the heroine WORTHY of him.  I don’t necessarily need to be her/identify with her.  The problem with Bridget Jones that I just could not get past was that I really didn’t think she was worthy of Darcy.  Just wanted to slap her.  So in that case, even Colin Firth on screen in the movie couldn’t help the darn thing.  And if a sexy hero desires a shitty heroine, I lose all respect for him.

I have to find the hero attractive and interesting to follow, but I also have to find the heroine WORTHY of him.  I don’t necessarily need to be her/identify with her.

Does it work both ways for you, Salome?  Do you need to find the hero worthy of the hero, as well?  Personally, I think I read more Romance in which I feel the hero isn’t worth the heroine than the other way around.  But perhaps that’s because it’s the heroine who makes or breaks my experience as a reader in Romance.  I don’t think I identify personally with either the hero or the heroine, but I’m definitely one of those readers who feels that the heroine is greatly underserved (in general) by the genre.

Absolutely.  I put down books that contain crappy humans as characters.  They both have to bring good features to the table.  When I was a teenager, I read a book by Sheryl Henke in which the hero - after meeting the heroine and therefore within the bounds of their attraction/affection - sleeps with a whore.  Screw that!  Put it down.  If I wanted angst or irredeemable assholes for leads, I’d real Literature.

I am not sure I have ever understood the concept of identification with either heroine or hero.

For me, both characters have to be written in such a way that I can see them in people I know. Well, sans the SEAL training, or the millions, or the title. They have both to be people. Furthermore, people whose reactions and motives I could understand even if I would *ahem* never make them.

So I can defend Meg Moore, the heroine of Suzanne Brockmann’s “The Defiant Hero” even while other people call her TSTL. I can believe someone reacting like that—completely dominated by fear—without losing respect for the character.

Does that mean I identify with her? Or does it mean that, for me, SBrockmann did her job as a writer providing a rounded characterization of Meg Moore?

Robin, while I understand why the use of rabid or for that matter zealous would make a lot of people uncomfortable, I have witnessed some instances in which the piling on the dissenting or critical voice is rather similar to a shark feeding frenzy—both in ferocity and cruelty.

It seems to me, though, that one could find such… devoted fans for books of any stripe, given time and resources to look for them. What is curious is how occasionally a particularly vocal group of them will latch unto a series of books or an author. I really can’t say why… and I’m not sure the über alpha hero can be blamed for that, since there are plenty of those in Romanceland, and only some generate this level of noise.

It seems to me, though, that one could find such… devoted fans for books of any stripe, given time and resources to look for them. What is curious is how occasionally a particularly vocal group of them will latch unto a series of books or an author. I really can’t say why… and I’m not sure the über alpha hero can be blamed for that, since there are plenty of those in Romanceland, and only some generate this level of noise.

I believe it comes back to the author.  When the author is willing not only to play along but encourage the continuation of the fantasy it becomes more personal to the readers.  We are all social creatures who crave acceptance.  When (some) users log into this fantasy world they become accepted by other members, get to converse to the author themselves or even a bit more extreme get to talk with the character themselves.  The communication can create a feeling of belonging and loyality.  When a perceived outsider comes in with what they believe is a “dissing” attitude toward their buds and author they will get emotional about it. 

I see this all the time in message boards and forums of all types of individuals/businesses.  There are those regulars who end up ruling the site and those who lurk quietly. 

It is up to the board owner to set the tone.  If Ward were my customer I would suggest she be very careful.  I do not have access to her stats but from what I can see, there are a few suggestions I would make.  First of all I had read some of dylans and dishing divas blogs on this and I tend to believe their side of the story. Ward really needs to consider more moderate fans. 

Many of the comments made by the cellies indicate that there are 3000 + happy members on her board, but her membership does not really indicate this.  It appears that she has 3371 current members of which only 1088 have ever bothered to post (236 of those have only posted one time).  Since this MB is a required sign up, those joining probably had the intention of participating or just quietly surfing, but the 32% particpation rate would not be the goal I would have a customer set for a participation based site.  She needs to ask herself WHY only 1/3 of those signing up have participated.  As I don’t have access to her sites stats and her goals, nor have I done any user testing I will not make a professional thoughts of why this low rate.

Even if all of the 3000+ members were happy participants, assuming she has sold a whole heck more than 3000 books, her percentage of fans who have not logged into her site and MB should be higher than those who have.  When rapid fans start turning off members and then spreading their rants to others blogs, it may turn off potential future readers.  I happen to like her stories (even the bi/homosexual issues and 50/ludacrus are ok with me) and hope that she considers her reader base as a whole.  I also hope her more adoring fans consider that many people will have different opinions than than own and striking out at them will not support your author.

I don’t think I’d ever support my own message boards, strictly to talk about my books, both for this reason and because it seems a bit ego-heavy. Always thought it would be kind of cool to have a writer’s forum, where writers got to together to talk about their work, though. I know there’s Absolute Write, but they’re just too big for my tastes.

I believe it comes back to the author.  When the author is willing not only to play along but encourage the continuation of the fantasy it becomes more personal to the readers.

I completely agree that the author shares complicity in the character of a messageboard of which she is administrator and which is on her site.  I checked out the member list on her MB last night, and Ward has posted around 2700 times.  Her characters (!) have posted numerous times as well, with the Brotherhood making posts into the HUNDREDS individually (the women in the series, not surprisingly perhaps, are mostly in the single or low double digits).  So I agree that an author sets both a tone for the board’s focus AND a tone for discussion (and has a great deal of power in setting limits, as she’s considered the queen of that particular hive of discussion). 

OTOH, I think that the nature of certain books DOES seem to attract more enthusiastic fans, and I do think it often has to do with the character of the hero(es).  In the world of In Death readers, for example, it seemed to me (from the discussions I saw and had with other readers) that most people read the series for Roarke.  A number of readers commented that they didn’t even like Eve, or at least felt she didn’t “appreciate” Roarke as she should (can you tell that it’s all about Eve for me?  I’m still made at Roarke for forcing her to marry him so quickly—bully that he is).  I don’t think it’s a phenomenon born of a single book, but a series like Ward’s seems almost custom-made for a more direct reader connection to the world of the series.  And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that per se; I DO think it’s absolutely possible to be sane and to be a big fan of a fictional series and of the worldbuilding there.  And I think a lot of readers can be this kind of fan while understanding that it is, just fiction.

As for the so-called “rabid” fans, I don’t excuse or condone their aggressive behavior one bit, but I think the term “rabid” unfortunately ends up doing to them what they are doing to readers who don’t toe the party line.  They might behave rabidly but if an author seems to be goading them on or tacitly encouraging them (which we’ve seen some authors do), then isn’t it more complicated as to what these fans actually are as opposed to what their behavior signifies? 

The part of this whole phenomenon of the author’s warriors (and I’m not specifically referring to Ward here, since I don’t know the reality of her situation) that icks me out, frankly, is my disbelief that any sane author could actually respect readers who go to extreme lengths to support a series or a character or an author herself.  And if there is no respect there, then what’s going on?  The potential answers to that question are what really bother me, because IMO that kind of relationship between an author and zealous fans is not only a disservice to the mainstream readership, but to these more devoted fans, as well.

Been reading the responses, now I have yet another question. If JR is making enough money selling her books to her rabid fans - Cellies!?!?! - is she going to care about her moderate fans? Seems like the first are going to buy anything and everything she writes. The second is going to stick with her until her books turn to crap in their hands. Another author I’m thinking of who I could have sworn was self-destructing (IMHO) still carries on. She’s still got her rabid fan base, the moderates seem to have wandered away.

I don’t know about JRWard herself, but I would imagine that even if all 3300+ members of her MB were rabid fans, that’s not quite enough copies to make a living.

Of course, take that with a ton of salt—I have no idea how publishing works.

All I know is, she should be writing Sub / Dom werewolf paranormals cos then she could name a hero Furry Sadist, and quit dancing ‘round it.

I’d like to speak out as a reader, a fan of JR Ward’s series and a member of the now infamous message board.

I didn’t know about this until I read Sibyl’s blog and then I followed all the links.

You know what disturbs me the most? That it is somehow unacceptable to be both a fan AND have a critical eye.

A friend, a fellow read of the series, had warned me that the mb would turn ugly. Since it was at the opening and I’d never lived through this type of conflict before, I was skeptical. Boy, was she right!!!!

AngieZ has the right of it. There’s this thing within the Cellies to post your member number as a footnote/signature. Well, I signed up the day the mbs opened, May 4th. After all this hoopla, I checked out my own statistics: member no in the 40s, 13 posts to date (about 10 the first week).

Why did this happen? First of all, the boards were waaaaay to busy, and a lot of times with “I love you WARDen” or whichever character. I just wanted the inside scoop. Fortunately, someone came up with a Highlights thread that tracks tidbits about the characters/plots/speculation. Now, it’s the only thing I really visit on the boards.

Secondly, I was very perplexed by the chats “with” the characters. WTF? Personally and culturally, I can suspend disbelief into the stratosphere but that just seemed weird to me. And that the members would continue to talk to the characters AFTER the chats…
It turned very clique-like rather fast. There is all this slang I have no idea about. I can’t even tell you when they started calling JR WARDen!!! Some things were alluded to on both Dylan’s and DD’s blogs I sincerely read for the first time. See how easy it is to be out of the loop?

I noticed in the Dishing Diva posts that some of the zellie cellies are in complete denial, and I’d seen the signs. How can anyone deny that there are homoerotic themes in there? Just the fact that 6 ultra-virile men live in the same house is a hint!!! And the only help is an old man? And I think the language speaks for itself.

I have 3 other friends (including the prescient one above)and none of us really dare participate on these boards. It seems either too dangerous or a waste of time.

I actually share Dylan’s opinions as stated in her post. I just figured out early on (with some help) that if you don’t criticize, you don’t get ostricized on the BDB mbs.

JR Ward did a few blogchats to promote LA, her latest book and the one that spawn this battle. I was rather annoyed, all fan that I am, at how the Cellies took over each and every blog comments! I posted each time, because there was also books to win, but I thought it rather rude for strangers to invade like that. As my friend H says, they make you feel left out…even on sites that aren’t their own!!!!

As for Ward’s silence over this, I must say I’m disappointed. She participates willingly enough in the boards but can’t say a word when things get ugly? Even to try to calm everyone? That does not seem right, especially when she was online THE SAME DAY.

I know my post is loooong but I’d just like to add that I do not get the PG 13 thing. People seem to understand this but I don’t. If the books use foul language, why can’t I, if only to quote the books? Especially since you have to sign in??? On an adults-only message board???

And this is certainly not the first or the last incident of its kind. Is it me or are romance fans unable to discuss books like adults? Or are we all in danger of being struck by a virtual hammer all the time?

Where are my bonbons, I’m feeling depressed..

By keeping silent, this is the message I get from Ward.  I also get the impression, and perhaps I’m biased now, that had Dylan’s original post been “OMG!OMG!I LOVE YOU! I LOVE YOU!” Ward herself would have responded.

by holly

actually NO as this isnt allowed either, end of the day Jr cant think or post for her fans, all that is ask is basic respect which aint asking much.

As a cellie who went to most of the blogs offering LA freebies, I’m not sure what the problem is with JRW fans descending on those blogs to comment. I’m sure the blog owners appreciated the traffic. From what I could tell, JRW was mostly very good about responding to questions, Holly’s experience notwithstanding. I really don’t see how fans commenting on those blogs would be considered rude per se, unless the comments themselves were rude.

And BTW, I actually remembered reading Holly’s questions on the blogs and hunted around to find it. I posted on that blog and JRW answered me twice (and no, I didn’t call her Warden or talk like a Cellie). Holly’s comment was posted when JRW wasn’t actually on the blog and when she returned later, from what I gather she started answering comments posted much later. At the end of that session, JRW apologised for missing any questions so if Holly really wanted to know answers to her questions, she could have e-mailed JRW or PM-ed her on the boards. That’s what I would have done. I’m not saying Holly shouldn’t have been disappointed - I would have been, too - but I think it’s making a mountain out of a molehill.

I’ve lurked on the boards a lot and posted a few times. Yes, there are cliques. But I don’t WANT to be part of the clique so I don’t really care. All I care about is finding out tidbits about future books and getting excerpts from the characters. Are the constant OMG OMG I LOVE U’s annoying? Absolutely. But do I care? Not really, although they make hunting around for relevant info a little more tedious. Do I think some of them are disturbed. Yes, actually. But I don’t and never have cared enough to spend time thinking about it. You know what? There are Trekkies and there are Cellies. If that doesn’t work for some people, well, why should they care that it does for others?

Having said that….yes, I do draw the line at inappropriate behaviour so even if I think you’re a crazy fan, I still expect you to be a decent human being. So I can’t excuse what happened to Dylan.

As for JRW commenting on the bad behaviour on her boards…well, at this point, I think it’s pretty much a no-win situation for her. Yes, some of her fans went way out of line but as I didn’t see what Dylan and her friends posted aside from the initial post, it’s hard to say whether or not they also crossed the line. Maybe a carefully worded private e-mail to JRW asking why she hasn’t responded publicly can offer some answers. I don’t know - I’m just speculating.

Maybe a carefully worded private e-mail to JRW asking why she hasn’t responded publicly can offer some answers. I don’t
know - I’m just speculating.

Actually, we did email JRW regarding this. We still have yet to receive a response.  Which, I suppose part of me understands.  I’m not sure I’d want to get drawn into a huge discussion, either.

But I remember not too long ago there was a huge dust up on the Judith McNaught BB at simonsays.com.  Now, in that case, I didn’t hold JM herself responsible at all, because it’s a publisher moderated forum.  But she DID say something to the more rabid of fans.  She wasn’t rude about it and she didn’t get in the middle of the argument, but she did say that she expected better.  Perhaps Ward could have done the same?

As for my comments not being responded to, it’s really not that big of a deal.  You’re right that I could have and possibly should have emailed her directly, but what bothered me is that the comments surrounding mine were responded to, but I was skipped completely.  Which, again, is her right.  I suppose I just felt slighted.

But the gist of her reply is, it wasn’t an issue with the contest of the original thread but the tone of both sides responding to it that caused the post to be removed.

Again, this I understand.  I didn’t see any of this myself, but as a moderator, if things were getting heated and insults were being traded, I’d delete the thread, too.  Especially if said posters were warned, as they apparently were. 

The thing I don’t understand is why Dylan and Jazz were banned.  Was that really necessary?  Perhaps a private message to them from the moderators would have done just as well?  But complete banishment?  That just seems extreme, don’t you think?

all that is ask is basic respect which aint asking much.

No, it’s not asking much.  But I think respect has to go both ways.  Shouldn’t Dylan and Jazz have been respected, too?  And were there “Cellies” who were banned as well?  Because I did see some of the comments they made in the second thread on the board, and they weren’t polite at all, nor were they respectful.  Perhaps some of them were, but a couple of the worst offenders are still posting there (I know, because I’ve seen it with my own eyes). 

And there’s one more thing I’d like to clarify:

Several times I’ve heard (or read, as the case may be) “They just did it for traffic”. Well, until the Smart Bitches posted this, we didn’t GET any traffic from it.  The Dishing Diva certainly did, but she’s not a member of Sanctuary’s Finest, so saying that Dylan and Jazz only posted on the BDM to gain traffic for our site doesn’t hold water.  Not only that, but we don’t get paid to blog.  We do it because we like reading romance novels and wanted to review them.  What do we care if other people read us?  If were were charging a fee we might, but what do we really have to gain from new readers?

Boy, my timing was impeccable.  I missed all of this particular discussion until after I read my first BDB book this week - so I went to the series mostly virginal (hee, that’s akin to “kind of pregnant”, right?). 

I see this issue from the evil-insurance-empire pov where we’re constantly worried about liability and responsibility for things like this.  Seems to me that some responsibility could be attributed to the author if it is true that she had active knowledge of what was going on…but that seems far from certain based on the discussion kerfuffle I’ve seen (not to mention SB Sarah’s update upthread).  I fall into the camp of giving the author the benefit of the doubt and don’t apportion blame to her because, based on my own personal experience, I know there can be days and days when I don’t even think about opening up that internet browser because I know that way lies madness and I have just too much to deal with to add a dollop of crazy on top of everything else.

At this point, I’m hoping for one big brotherhood orgy to dissipate all that manlove energy.

Oh man, me too!  This series is begging for some slash fiction.  Someone out there has to have written it.  ::Goes in search of some BDB slash::

I was also forwarded a copy of the response J.R. posted.  I guess better late than never, but I’m not buying that she was so into editing that she had NO knowledge of the incident and the subsequent fallout.  She had plenty of time to visit the boards several times and play with the zellies after the drama.  Heck, even the “Brothers” were on there posting messages!  Seems to me like she would also have the time to check and respond to the e-mail Holly sent to her.  Sorry, but my b.s. meter is off the charts.

Mad respect lost on this end.

yes several of the @cellies were banned Holly, though not permanentley so. This would most likely have been the case with dylan and jazz also but then all the blog stuff happened then seriousley after what ya have seen posted would ya let them join your site?

yeah if you wanted/enjoy arguements but unless they are willing to abide by the board rules it wont happen.