Smart Bitches, Trashy Books

I can’t believe RWA President is claiming she’s not sure if it’s plagiarism!!!!  What the hell?????

“It’s not clear-cut to me,”

What?? Honestly, how much clearer does it need to be?

And how can an author not know that they’re supposed to credit their sources? I learnt that in high school for bloody sake.

OK, now that was just plain wrong!

Wow.

I’m speechless.

no offense to those who know and care but gee whiz if the PRESIDENT of Romance Writers Association BE anymore wishy washy on the subject. she seems to try to say just enough to try to placate all sides of the issue. IMHO

cool as shit that the AP has picked the story up ..rock on bitches!

I find it . . . interesting that first Publishers Weekly and now the Associated Press have selected (from the 8 novels worth of evidence that the Smart Bitches compiled) practically the only two examples that come within a time zone of actually being paraphrasing.  I’m not going to lurch into full-on conspiracy theory territory, but considering the much more damning quotations available I honestly can’t come up with an explaination for these softballs they’re lobbing.

BAHAHAHAHA

I just noticed that I’m so scared that someone will kick my ass for talking negative about the RWA president that I was wishy washy myself.

Seriously jaw dropped when I read her comments.

Oh, dear.  Oh, dear, oh, dear, oh dear.  Methinks the new RWA president needs to learn how to speak to the media.  Gayle Wilson, former president, needs to teach.  She was a master of saying just the right thing, even off the cuff.

Actually, I think that the ferret paragraph is pretty damning - the “researchers theorize” sentence is an exact lift.

On a happier note, I’m pleased to announce that Signet is going to be publishing my book! It’s called The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire: A Romance”
It starts “Call me Ishmael” said Romulus…

they loved it!

I’m guessing that while PW and AP want to get in on the action, they’re being careful since the news is so new. I’m just delighted it’s being taken seriously by a major news org—it would be really easy for an editor to dismiss this as the blogosphere gazing at its own navel… or to wait until someone does or says something wild and dramalicious a la spears and co. everyone’s being polite, where’s the story?

Man, where were these people when I was doing papers for college? I had to list when someone sneezed and got snot on my papers!

Hell, what does she have to do for the President of the RWA to say, yup…that be stolen? Use the cover of a ferret magazine as art for her romance novel?

Re: RWA President.  She probably doesn’t want to get sued.  And saying “Someone plagiarized” is actionable as slander if it’s proved wrong.  I think, but then, I’m not one of the lawyers around here.  If she just got slammed with this, then I understand her need/wish to be wishy-washy.

And I’ll say what I said at Dear Author:  I thought that CE would say “I didn’t know I had to” when she was finally hunted down.  If Diana Gabaldon thinks that, for heaven’s sake (
::weeps:: ), then I can see how CE would think that.  She’s wrong.  Flat out wrong.  But she probably thought, “Well, I’m not doing what Janet Dailey did!” and thought she was fine.

Because us academics aren’t important or anything. I wonder what the black-footed ferret article writers think about it all.

Damn automatic smileys.  ;)

Sarah, I do not judge the RWA president for being cautious in her statements—one would expect that.  What she should have done was keep her personal opinion to herself when it is so shockingly wrong.  How can she not see it?

What she would have been better served in saying was, “RWA takes charges of plagiarism very seriously.  I need more time to look over the examples on these blogs and investigate the situation further before I respond.”

Or some such.

Well, I’m Monday-morning quarterbacking and that’s not fair either.

I am not gleeful but I am stunned at the silliness in saying that “When you write historical romances, you’re not asked to do that,” when no other historical romances i read on a normal basis ever lift so well that “Researchers theorize” is in the sentence. And what about the fact that she acknowledged that she sometimes “takes” her material “from reference books”?

Frankly, I hope she was just not educated in sources, for her own sad existence but I find that hard to believe. I have been taught about it since kindergarten.

so bravo bitches for keeping up and showing the news what’s what

I’ve figured out what’s bothering me. The whole thing about putting her husband on the phone. Does that reek to anyone else? Like she’s feeble and weak and needs a man to protect her from the evil accusations.

Maybe I’m just reading too much in to that.

It doesn’t seem like a circle jerk anymore.

Good Lord. I stumbled upon this story by accident and am floored. Hats off to you ladies for sussing this out! The passages you posted are really damning. There is absolutely NO way Ms. Edwards could be unaware that this was plagiarism. She practically cut and pasted the stuff. She’s a published author, for what that’s worth these days. Even if her books are wince inducing she’s still a professional writer. Shame on her for swiping!

Absofrigginlutely hilarious.  Lurked for months, never commented, but the outrageousness of Edwards’, Signet’s AND the RWA’s responses to all this drag me out tonight. 

Many things are legitimately unclear. Whether this was plagiarism isn’t one of them.  I couldn’t come up with a more damning set of quote comparisons if I made them BOTH up. 

And when public opinion is done speaking (say, three months from now), I bet more attention goes to the publisher’s/guild rep’s wafflage than the original offense.  Because, geez, it’s almost more shocking.

Yeah Ruth, putting her husband on the phone seemed kind of pathetic to me too. I’ve actually been known to take the phone from mine on occasion. I can’t imagine letting anyone else speak for me that way.

I have a copyright lawyer who’s a friend that reads my LJ from time to time.  He’s left an interesting comment on my post about this issue which you can read here.

Basically he thinks that what Edwards has done won’t count as copyright infringement (unless some of the sources are still under copyright) but that all of it counts as fraud.  Edwards has taken money from readers under false pretences, claiming that work is her own when it’s not, she’s benefitted falsely from the work of others.  It’s possible she’s also defrauded her publishers (or I think they may be complicit in the fraud).  Interesting, huh?

Julie, okay, I like that better.  I’ve never had to deal with the press, though—I can’t imagine what it’s like, and it reads to me like Sherry Lewis was trying her own version of not saying anything.  But your version is much better!

I’d say she’s more guilty of bad writing than plagiarism if she’s lifting sections from research books. I mean, really!

Ros - my problem with the Fraud issue is showing the detrimental reliance element. I.e., can you prove that readers would have acted differently if they knew of the copying.  Did you rely to your detriment on the mispresentation?

~[Edwards] acknowledged that she sometimes “takes” her material “from reference books,” but added that she didn’t know she was supposed to credit her sources.

“When you write historical romances, you’re not asked to do that,” Cassie Edwards told The Associated Press, speaking earlier this week from her home in Mattoon, Ill.~

I think that’s my favorite bit. I write historical romances.  Yes, I use reference materials for research and no, I don’t cite them within the work, that’s absurd.  I will occasionally list them in the author’s note or acknowledgments, depending upon how heavily I relied upon them. 

But what I also don’t do is copy passages verbatim into my own text.  I use the information to make sure I have a solid, historical foundation for my story and characters, with my OWN words and my OWN story.

Big difference.  I’m actually a bit prickled that she is either a) that stupid or b) thinks we are.

After reading this, I figured out how she can justify her use of the ferret article.

She’s a weasel.

Clearly, she’s just getting in touch with her heritage.

(That’s the excuse she used for the other references, right?)

Jane, I’m no lawyer so I couldn’t say for sure but I’d guess that Ken knows what he’s talking about.  The sale of those books depends on their content and, particularly with the later ones, the identification of Edwards as their author.  So if she’s lied and passed off other people’s work as her own, then I think you could make a fair case for fraud.  But I could be wrong.

It’s incredible isn’t it?!  She ‘doesn’t know she’s supposed to cite her sources’.  But does she know whether or not she’s supposed to copy from them directly into her book?  That seems to me to be much more problematic.

John M. Barrie, a plagiarism specialist who helped design detection software used widely on college campuses, told the AP that the author had indeed lifted material.

Out of everything else said in this wonderfully framed article I think the plagiarism specialist just slammed them all into the dirt and rubbed their faces in it.

I bet Sherry Lewis cringed reading that printed directly before her “It’s not clear-cut” non-response.

You cannot tell me these people do not have an internet connection.

Ros - the elements for fraud (aka intentional misrepresentation) includes not only “lying” but what is called the “causation” element which is the nexus between the act of wrongdoing and the damage.  If there is no detrimental reliance, then there is no damage.

I.e., no harm no foul (actual legal defense called no causation).

I know that there was a class action against James Frey and it was reported that only a tiny few actually availed themselves of the class action benefits.  Ironically, Robin and I were musing about this very topic (plagiarism and legal COAs) about a month ago. 

If you could find a disgruntled Cassie Edwards reader who stated “I wouldn’t have bought these books if I knew it contained lifted material” then that person could probably be name plaintiff in a class action suit on the grounds of fraud, but you’ve got to find that person. 

It would be cost prohibitive to bring an individual suit because the actual damage would be the amount paid for the book and you could get punitive damages, but since the BMW Supreme Court case, you generally are allowed only a one digit ratio between actual damages (the cost of the book) and punitive damages.

Can’t see a lawyer jumping on that bandwagon.

John M. Barrie, a plagiarism specialist who helped design detection software used widely on college campuses, told the AP that the author had indeed lifted material.

Which brings up a question I’ve been meaning to ask.  Any of you academic folks out there have access to TurnItIn?  ‘Cause it’d be pretty interesting to see the resulting analysis on one of CE’s books.

Ah yes, Jane, seems you’re quite right.  ;)  Ken’s just left a fuller answer to your comment making the same point.

Isn’t it frustrating when you can see that someone’s clearly committed a crime but that it’s extremely unlikely there’ll be a way to bring them to justice over it?

And doubtless that will merely reinforce publishers in their ‘if we can’t be sued, we don’t care’ morality.  *sigh*

Nikki, yes, I do, but that would require typing in a Cassie Edwards book.  And I’m not up to that!  If you’ve got an electronic file, I’ll see what I can do.

Well, if it walks like a duck & talks like a duck…

ros

I think the wrong without a remedy is the basis of so much of my own frustration.  Absent any legal imperative, it doesn’t seem like Penguin cares.

I’m not so much concerned about the plagiarism as I am about what light this event is shining on romance novel industry.  Most people (who don’t read these books) think that the women (and men) who do read them are vapid, without a thought in their heads.

Thanks CE! Now everyone has someone to point to, a romance novelist for god’s sake, and say “Look! We told you they’re all idiots. Now will you believe us?”

And to top it off, she’s one of the-I won’t say worst- but cheesiest of the lot. Granted, I would be more horrified if this “plagiarism” charge happened to a writer I love and adore. But at least then, that writer would be able to stand up proudly and claim the rest of her work…apart from the plagiarism I mean.

It’s a sad day all around. And I’m not even going to talk about CE putting her husband on the phone. I can hear it now: “Not only is she an idiot, but she’s as weak as her heroines!”

Sigh.

Dear Neptune, Sarah F.—I’d never expect you to type a whole CE book. I think there’s a separate level of hell reserved for that task.

I actually have several passages from CE’s novels typed, including those I’ve identified the sources and those I haven’t but highly suspect. 

How about we run a prelim to see what, if anything, pops up?  Email me and we can discuss further.

It is a sad day. Honestly, I feel so down, because it just shouldn’t have happened. But on the bright side, I do feel like losing myself in my work!

Jane, I think you’re quite right.  I wonder if the media isn’t a better tool than the law in this instance.  Shame may be more powerful than guilt in getting action.  If Penguin’s name is properly dragged through the mud, it seems to me they might be persuaded to take action to stop this kind of thing happening again.  I think maybe it would be more effective to focus on the actions of the publisher in allowing this to go out, than on Edwards herself.  What do you think?

“I didn’t know the gun was loaded”, as she stepped over the body.  Ms Edwards is full of it!

RWA is also full of it.  E-Publishers are out, plagiarism is in.  For god’s sake, when is that organization going to get their act together?

Good to see that AP picked up on the story.  It will be interesting to see what happens, if anything.

It makes me feel sad, too. Plagiarism sucks monkey balls. Her explanation is so freakin’ lame. *Grrr*

You know, even though I haven’t published a real book, I have had someone take a fanfiction I wrote and made it into her own. She took the plot and whole passages. Just replaced the characters I was writing about with her favorite characters.

But since mine was on the internets since like 1998, she was hunted down by one of my old readers who harassed her and then alerted me.

I mean, it isn’t the best story in the world, but I came up with it. I asked her to take her story down and she did right away, denying that she did anything wrong.

But again, she was a 15 year old girl. NOT a published writer. The internet can expose everything.

I wonder if CE thought, Hm, my readers aren’t the sort of ladies who’d surf the internet and find these handy informational passages that I plan to just drop right into my story.

Which brings up a question I’ve been meaning to ask.  Any of you academic folks out there have access to TurnItIn?  ‘Cause it’d be pretty interesting to see the resulting analysis on one of CE’s books.

Nikki, You bring up the one most damning thing I have been considering all day. It took me oh about all of 5 minutes tops to find a 2003 review of the best Anti-Plagiarism available on the market. Turnitin came out with flying colors because it does batch work.

Now talking standards in publishing…

Why the hell is no one in publishing using this convenient software for CYA?

Am I the only one that keeps getting the feeling no one wants to do anything but continue to shrug their shoulders and run huge publishing firms based on finger crossing and the honor system?

I have read this post about the allegation of plagiarism against Cassie Edwards by “the plagiarism software detection developer, John M. Barrie, as saying that she “had indeed lifted material,” while Sherry Lewis, president of the RWA, is also quoted: “It’s not clear-cut to me,” she said. “You can see similarities in the passages, but I’m not qualified to make that assertion.” “

Anyone who has read these comments either in this blog or in the press is NOT in a position to say that Cassie Edwards plagiarized material. Ms Lewis is correct in making the statement she did, and Mr. Barrie, despite his expertise, has committed slander which is a crime, and the press ought to know better for printing libelous comments. It matters not whether the statements made against Cassie Edwards are true or not; if the comments are harmful to her reputation then Ms Edwards has the right to litigate against those parties.

It is up to a court of competent jurisdiction to decide whether or not the allegations are true.

My comment to the owners of this blog on this topic is that I never thought to come across a wild pack of dogs ready to tear one of their own apart in public. Shame on you.

Oh, for goodness’ sake, Barbara. One of our “own”?

I’m not a thief or a plagiarist, thank you very much.

I’m not a plagiarist. *looks around* Anyone here a plagiarist?
Barbara wants a word with you for attacking your own.

Oh what I would give for an ARC of Stolen Thunder.

Wild dogs?  Have some perspectives.  If anything, she’s being torn apart by black-footed ferrets.

Nikki, You bring up the one most damning thing I have been considering all day. It took me oh about all of 5 minutes tops to find a 2003 review of the best Anti-Plagiarism available on the market. Turnitin came out with flying colors because it does batch work.

Teddy, one of the reasons I’d love to see a report from TurnItIn is because of the inherent impartiality of the program. 

Naysayers point the finger and cry, “Witch hunt!” when the evidence is coming from the SBs. 

But a computer program that has no perceived pre-existing bias against poor, widdle Cassie Edwards?  Priceless.

Plus, out of simple curiosity, I’d like to know if it supports or refutes my first report to the SBs on SAVAGE BELOVED.  Not that I doubt myself—because I fully stand by everything I said—but it’s always nice to have supporting statements from a third party.

Great idea Nikki! Print that report.

While we’re waiting…

You know what you call making a Cassie Edwards fangirl in denial angry?

CEnile Agitation

Since there seems to be quite a bit of disbelief regarding Ms. Edwards’ “borrowing and paraphrasing” as the PTB at Signet put it, I thought I’d toss a glass of water on the towering inferno.

If nothing else, it’ll give us something to do while we wait for more Outraged Citizens to wade into the fray.

Let’s play a game, boys and girls.  Okay, open a new window or tab in your browser and surf on over to books.google.com (that’s Google Books, for the slower kiddies in the back of the class).

Good job.  Now enter in the words: doeskin moccasins wrought patterns.  No quotes needed, just four individual words.

Go ahead.  I’ll wait for you.
.
.
.
Alright.  Hit enter and tell me what books pop up.  What?  Only two books out of the THOUSANDS of books on Google.  I can hardly believe it. 

For the lazy kids who don’t do class assignments, the two books are SAVAGE OBSESSION by Cassie Edwards and LADY UNAFRAID by Joseph Raleigh Nelson.  S.O. was originally published in 1983 as the first book in the Savage series.  LADY UNAFRAID was originally published in 1951 and is, indeed, still under copyright. 

Here are their respective quotes:

SAVAGE OBSESSION page 49
His beaded doeskin moccasins were wrought intricately in patterns of porcupine quills dyed rose, green, and blue…

LADY UNAFRAID page 68
... his doeskin moccasins were wrought in intricate patterns of porcupine quills dyed rose and green and blue.

Anyone up for round two of Google Me This?

(spamblocker: group31 Hmmm, I thought the classrooms capped at 30 students.)

Teddy Pig, you are wrong yet oh so right sometimes.

The only problem with turnitin.com is that is does not recognize when a paper is actually citing their sources, and so any quoted material will come up as plagiarized.

Ohhh…but this is *Cassie Edwards*, who has no reason to cite, footnote, or even give credit where it is most definitely due.  My bad.

I just ran the passages Candy sent me through Turnitin. Here’s what I found:

From Savage Hope:

“p. 24: He was in his mother’s home, a traditional longhouse made of split cedar planks placed horizontally and lashed to upright poles with lengths of twisted cedar withes.”

From a Washington State library online:

“Traditional Makah houses were constructed of split cedar planks placed horizontally and lashed to upright poles with lengths of twisted cedar rope”

This isn’t that damning. But there are others—it seems much of her information on the Makah people is definitely lifted.

I’ll send a proper report to Candy in a couple of days, but since I just did this Turnitin thing, I’d thought I’d get it to you all tonight.

Okay, being a research-aholic myself, I couldn’t resist Nikki’s challenge—

I went to the given url and typed in the given four words,... and got only two, count ‘em, two returns.

Cool!  So what’s for round 2?

quote:

[Edwards] acknowledged that she sometimes “takes” her material “from reference books,” but added that she didn’t know she was supposed to credit her sources.

translation:

I’m just a poor little green 70-year-old author with no more that 100 books to my credit. How was I to know?

quote:

“When you write historical romances, you’re not asked to do that,” Cassie Edwards told The Associated Press, speaking earlier this week from her home in Mattoon, Ill.

You’re not asked to not plagarize? I know I’m giving fuel to those who see this kerfluffle as a personal attack on CE, but I really can’t help but say that I’m beginning to think she’s not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree.

quote:

The article also quotes plagiarism software detection developer John M. Barrie as saying that she “had indeed lifted material,” and Sherry Lewis, president of the RWA, is also quoted: “It’s not clear-cut to me,” she said. “You can see similarities in the passages, but I’m not qualified to make that assertion.”

translation:

There’s this thing in the middle of my face - it may be a nose, but who’s to say? Maybe it’s an ear. I’m no anatomist, so I’m really not qualified to make that assertion.

quote:

Mr. Barrie, despite his expertise, has committed slander which is a crime, and the press ought to know better for printing libelous comments.

Oh, Christ on a cracker. Slander is NOT a crime, it’s a civil tort (did I get that phrasing right, lawyer-type people?).

quote:

Actually, I think that the ferret paragraph is pretty damning - the “researchers theorize” sentence is an exact lift.

It’s always the ferret. I’ve seen it a million times. We’re a savage bunch, and we’ll get you in the end.

Sorry for my inability to figure out a quote function. As I may have mentioned, I am but a poor, lowly (savage) ferret.

OK, I’m definitely with you all here. I have posted on Jenny Crusie’s blog (which i never, EVER do) to explain my stance that this plagiarism thing is, for once, not concurrent with hers, and that this is in the spirit of critical inquiry which is essential to smart women who read.

Plagiarism is dishonest, and the reception these claims have gotten on this thread and many others tells us what the non-legal consequences of plagiarism are; namely, reader betrayal. Even those of us that don’t like Edwards’ books feel betrayed.

I understand the gut wrenching wrongness of the whole thing. You have a right to express your anger, frustration and anything else you want.

I am not a fan of Cassie’s books or her ethical choices.

But you guys are starting to sound like bitches. Not Bitches, either. just… plain old bitches.

Pursue the facts and chill the hell out.

I’d love to see these passages. Anyone know where they are? BTW - love your blog.

Boo me if you will but isn’t Cassie Edwards kind of old? Not that I’m using her age as an excuse but…If she felt the need to put her husband on the line that must have meant something. Maybe she’s frail and confused? Maybe she really didnt know. Didn’t she start writing in the early 1900’s. Things were surely different back then.

I don’t think her age can really excuse her. I mean, Students back then had to footnote and cite sources, they just didn’t have the internet to make things easier for them.

I mean, goodness knows, the woman can’t write unwooden prose worth a damn. All her books come off like they were hewn out of tree limbs, to me.

I’ve only once plagiarized and it was into a journal I kept. I didn’t think it fit right, so I never did it again. Some live and learn. Some, apparently, never do. Maybe Cassie Edwards is so, well, I was going to use “dim”, but that’s really an insult… so naive that she assumed that the first time she did it, she wasn’t caught out or even “talked to” by her publisher, so she assumed it was all right. But that still doesn’t make it any less stinky a thing to do. It really is too bad that Candy and Sarah can’t forward the information to the nearest and dearest of the departed authors so that they can take action against Cassie Edwards and Penguin/Signet. Because really, if Penguin/Signet assumed it’s okay, they should be the ones penalized. It was their duty/job to catch this and nip it in the bud, and their mishandling of the whole situation is what is going to get them sued.

Maybe having to pay actual money will get them to straighten up and fly right, so to speak. We can only hope.

First the Harry Potter Encyclopaedia controversy, then this - I’m astonished at seeing supposedly well-educated and intelligent people simply not getting it.

“Only gets ideas”? The sources are copied verbatim, anyone with a working eye can see it. Sure, they’re just sentences or sentence fragments, about relatively trivial things, but you can’t just copy-paste stuff from your sources and leave it at that, even if it’s technically legal for whatever reason. Especially when you prize yourself on your “meticulous research.”

I have a feeling these people honestly don’t understand that the problem is not using sources and not crediting them - obviously no-one expects a romance (or anything else, for that matter) writer to be an expert on, say, ferrets. (Oh, the ferrets!) Of course she has to use sources, and I’ll go as far as saying she really doesn’t have to credit them, in my opinion, as long as they’re only for trivia.

But using sources and copy-pasting sentences without referencing the source, then letting yourself be praised as a meticulous researcher? Is not the same thing as simply “getting ideas.” Jesus Christ.

Very impressed by the AP article.  WTG on breaking this, Bitches.  I’m interested to see what happens next as the story continues to grow.

Oh, my, you made Fandom Wank:

http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/1132678.html

I can well understand the RWA’s caution.

Can anyone explain how the Cassie Edwards alleged plagarism materially differs from the Dan Brown plagarism judgement?

I am thinking about this part of Mr Justice Peter Smith’s judgement from March 2007:

Michelle,
The fact that she’s a plagiarist is right here in this blog. There are many evidences that simply can’t be refuted. She has copied verbatim from her sources, and this counts as plagiarism. Not “high level” plagiarism, sure - the excerpts in this blog are limited to trivia about nature and Native American culture, and do not form an important part of her stories (I suppose, I haven’t read any of her books). Frankly, I don’t expect any serious consequences, simply because what she plagiarized belongs to the “who cares” category for most people. But it’s plagiarism nonetheless, made worse by the fact that we’re talking about an award-winning author. The facts speak for themselves.

At the moment, CE is an alleged copyright breaker. So far all the sources the SBs have checked are in public domain, so there’s no proof if she’s broken any laws. Which is what most of her defenders emphasize, conveniently forgetting that you don’t necessarily have to break the law to do something wrong.

Michelle,
There’s no witch hunt, and CE is no “alleged” plagiarist. The proof that she’s a plagiarist is right here in this blog: the evidences that simply can’t be refuted. She has copied verbatim from her sources, and this counts as plagiarism. Not “high level” plagiarism, sure - the excerpts in this blog are limited to trivia about nature and Native American culture, and do not form an important part of her stories (I suppose, I haven’t read any of her books). Frankly, I don’t expect any serious consequences, simply because what she plagiarized belongs to the “who cares” category for most people. But it’s plagiarism nonetheless, made worse by the fact that we’re talking about an award-winning author. The facts speak for themselves.

What a trial could decide is whether she has broken any laws. So far all the sources the SBs have checked are in public domain, so there’s no proof that what she’s done anything illegal. Which is what most of her defenders emphasize, conveniently forgetting that you don’t necessarily have to break the law to do something wrong.

Eeh, sorry for the mistakes, my English is not very good at this time of the day.

To be fair, if I got a phone call from the press telling me I was being accused of plagiarism I’d be in shock.  I don’t know if I’d ask my partner to take the call for me, but if I did it wouldn’t mean I was weak in all areas of my life.  Honest!

I didn’t follow the Brown thing closely but from what I read he wasn’t accused of lifting passages, he was accused of stealing his plot from the nonfiction book’s theory.  I wasn’t surprised at the outcome. 

With regard to CE, she lifted actual text with few, if any changes.

You people are pathetic. I’ve read the quotes and she didn’t do anything wrong. The quotes are different. Plagiarising something is when you steal a quote word for word without crediting it. She never did that. Just because she used a lousy phrase, big deal. You people really need to get a life. Instead of sitting on your lazy asses devoting your life to seeing if someone who’s written 100 books borrowed 2 or 3 words, maybe you could develop a life of your own and actually accomplish something of your own with your pathetic mundane existance. When you write 100 books, or even ONE, then we’ll talk. Then we’ll pick apart your book, word for word, and have a bunch of bored pathetic self-proclaimed “bitches” sit there for months cross-referencing each word and phrase and God forbid you use a phrase that someone else once used, then there will be hell to pay. At least that woman has accomplished something with her life unlike you people who obviously have no life and nothing better to do than to sit on your fat asses proclaiming what “bitches” you are (your words, not mine). At least you seem to have gotten the later part right. Hey, maybe next you can analyze music and singers and bands and songs, and dissect those, just to make sure none of them have ever used a single note that anyone else in all of history has ever used before. And if they have, by all means, go nuts and post thousands of comments freaking out about that. You people are truly lifeless and pathetic.

Bev, I don’t think it’s fair to say that RWA believes “plagiarism is in” based on one sound bite from a brand new RWA president.

I say this because as I wrote on Dear Author, RWA acted swiftly and responsibly in taking care of a plagiarism issue for a friend of mine.  The offending author was booted out of the organization and chastised for her actions.  The whole incident was very hush-hush, mainly because the author who was stolen from wanted it that way.  She didn’t want a big deal made out of it because the publisher of the other book acted swiftly in pulling the book (an ebook) from distribution on both their site and other sites like Fictionwise.

That said, I do not agree with the way the president handled this interview.  I think it is very important that the spokesperson for the national organization take greater care in issuing any statement at all.

From my experience, women “of a certain age” often ask their husbands to handle anything upsetting or difficult.  They may be fully capable of handling it themselves, but it’s just a default reaction to put the husband on the phone.  That was my first thought when I read she’d done that—dunno if my opinion is worth anything on that or not.

Yay trolls!  2 or 3 words???  *rolls on floor laughing*  Love it.

“When you write 100 books, or even ONE, then we’ll talk.”

*raises hand*

Okay, let’s talk. Plagiarism is copying another’s work and calling it your own. Minor paraphrasing doesn’t change the offense.

I do not have a lazy ass, though I sit on it for considerable stretches of time. To write. Using my own words.

Repeating a single phrase or two within the body of a book—not plagiarism. Wholesale copying of passages with a bit of tweaking here and there? Plagiarism.

And that is the issue. Plagiarism.

Oh, and btw, I don’t have 100 books out, only 13, but feel free to run ‘em through TurnItIn if you like.  I have no fear.

And, in the report you linked to Michelle, the judge does say:

‘I believe that their work was genuinely and clearly acknowledged.’

Not a lawyer, and don’t live in the US, but would there ever be a trial? You can see why they tried to sue Dan Brown - because of the sheer amount of money involved, but it’s hard to imagine it would be worth anyone’s while to sue for this.

And I don’t blame her at all for letting her husband take the call - I think when you grow older sometimes it does take longer to react to something. But on the other hand, I think age has nothing to do with understanding it’s wrong to copy: I’m sure my 75 year old mother learnt that at school.

Part of the Brown case did revolve on his copying part of the Holy Blood and the Holy Grail into the da Vinci Code.In fact the judge said that he did. Mr Dan Brown in the court’s judgement did not infringe on the language copyright. It is not what he was accused of plagarising even though he did copy parts.

To quote from the judgement of Mr Justice Peter Smith:

I’m about to start my last year of high school and I know that it might not count for much when I seem to be surrounded by lawyers and writers and people with more life experience than me. But ever since I started high school plagiarism and copyrighting have been major issues. We’ve done countless workshops with names like “All My Own Work” and we have to cite every single piece of information that we get, whether we are paraphrasing it or just using it as a little bit of background research. Our teachers have also been kind enough to use threats to keep us in line. They have a program (which I think is like turnitin.com) that catches plagiarism and all of our assessments and essays are put through that system. If we are caught with anything that is taken from another source we fail and get a zero.

I don’t want to snark or anything like that but I just wanted to say that if my school goes to all that trouble to ensure that we don’t plagiarise in high school, then why dont publishers do it? Or do they? I’m confused about that. Is it that they trust the author to be original and innovative that they don’t check?

Sorry if that’s a stupid question but I was just really wondering about that. If she’s written 100 books why has it only come out now?

Good work to the SB’s for finding it =)

I wonder how much money the “poor old dear” has made from these books. I’m not a fan so I don’t feel personally betrayed but I would be very upset if this type of thing became a trend. Regardless of whether or not a personally like a book, I’d like to able able to trust that the author is getting paid for work he/she did themselves.

Bull.

I’m just wondering what kind of precedent this kind of investigation will provoke. Will romance authors - or for that matter, any author - have to quote all the sources they’ve used for their stories? I can imagine the list at the end of the book… And if they have none, will this author be considered lazy or mediocre because supposedly they have done no research into world building, plot or characterization?

“When you write 100 books, or even ONE, then we’ll talk. Then we’ll pick apart your book, word for word”

Not 100, more like 20. For my historical romances I do a lot of research. I have never, ever quoted without attribution, in either fiction or non fiction.
Not because I’m afraid of prosecution but because it isn’t right.
Oh yes, and I do a fair bit of research for my paranormals, too, but I’ve never quoted chunks of “Dracula” and claimed it as mine, either.

Ok, so I discovered I have a CE book and couldn’t resist. Because of limited time, I only found 3 blatant examples, the most egregious being from the epilogue. Sorry if this is tl;dr!

Night Wolf by Edwards (2003):

“That first winter as Night Wolf’s wife, she had learned that winter and blizzards were as much a part of the Indian’s life as were the pleasant days of summer. ... They often gathered around fires, drinking broth made from buffalo marrow as stories were told and warriors reminisced.

As the men talked, the women would repair their husbands’ leather shirts, finish some intricate quillwork on a dress or moccasins, or teach a girl child a variety of beadwork stitches. When the people ran short of firewood, the young braves would collect buffalo chips. The chips often burned too quickly unless their mothers had a bit of fat to suspend above the fire to slowly drip onto the dung, making it last longer and create better heat. Marissa was surprised that on the coldest mornings, Night Wolf would strip to his breechclout and go outside to rub snow on his body.

Trim, fit, and hardened by a life in the outdoors, Night Wolf had adjusted long ago to the cold and could easily withstand the rigors of the trail.” (p. 328)

Which came from….:

Big Bear: The End of Freedom, by Hugh Aylmer Dempsey (1984):

“Inside his lodge, Big Bear relaxed and waited. Winter and blizzards were as much a part of his life as the pleasant days of summer. At times like this, a man could visit with his friends, tell stories and reminisce about the glories of hunting and war. A woman could finish some intricate quillwork on a pair of moccasins, repair her husband’s leather shirt or teach a girl child a variety of beadwork stitches. When they were running short of firewood, the younger girls ventured from the lodge to collect buffalo chips. These burned quickly, too quickly, but if their mother had a bit of fat, she could suspend it above the fire so that it slowly dripped on the dung, making it last longer and creating a better heat. ...Even on the coldest mornings, some of the men insisted on stripping to their breechcloths and going outside to rub snow over their bodies. Trim, fit and hardened by a life in the outdoors, they adjusted to the cold so that they could more easily withstand the rigours of the trail.” (p. 49)

I’d be rather insulted to find out the Pres of RWA doesn’t read Smart Bitches. She needs to update her bookmarks methinks.

Julie Elizabeth Leto for RWA president.  She knows how to articulate without inserting her thigh into her mouth.  Kudos

God, people, it’s only 9:30 am and I’m already a bit tipsy on old, bad, left over New Years alcohol at the number of times I’ve read accusations of “witch hunt”, “why don’t you get lives?” and “let me know if YOU’VE written a book, miss!” (and I sneaked one in for the “you’re becomin’ plain ol’ common letter bitches” because, well, it was too perfect to pass up).

Let me tell you, I was tempted to just empty the whole thing a couple posts back when the predictable “You can say nice things as often as you like because it makes babies and angels smile, but if it’s going to be *negative* just say it once or you’re killing a child in Iraq and geez you’ve mentioned Cassie Edwards outside of reviews in about 0.8% of your total posts talk about an OBSESSION and yes, publishing is a business but for romance it’s also a tea party and/or sorority, can’t we all just hold hands and sing kumbaya, even though no other set of writers acts like this even if they’re name becomes a by word for bad—anyone notice Dan Brown whining like a little baby lately when he gets thrown out as a sign of dumbed down fiction in America?—and don’t we all want to be taken seriously?” turned up, sure as sunrise.

But, technically, I’m supposed to be working on my thesis.

I don’t think it’s fruitful to try to psychoanalyse Edwards from that AP article a la “she’s as weak as her heroines” and so forth. I can’t really buy, though, that she thought it was fine to lift sentences wholesale from books and not think an acknowledgement was in order. She used words that weren’t her own. Lots of them. Setting aside attribution and what not, how the heck did she think transcribed excerpts of nature articles would make for good dialogue? Huh.

I’m just wondering what kind of precedent this kind of investigation will provoke. Will romance authors - or for that matter, any author - have to quote all the sources they’ve used for their stories? I can imagine the list at the end of the book… And if they have none, will this author be considered lazy or mediocre because supposedly they have done no research into world building, plot or characterization?

I’m guessing it won’t be so much of a big deal for other authors if they’re not giving the old Microsoft word clip board a heavy work out.

As for the issue of historical accuracy there have been previous discussions about its supposed impact on the reader and it’s arguable to say that it’s not a deal breaker for many people unless the inaccuracy is egregious. If any is really concerned, as also mentioned before, Susan Johnson does a fun bit of endnotes. I’ve read other authors (off the top of my head Lisa Kleypas) who in acknowledgements or afterwords mention some of their sources and/or to explain changes to actual historical events they made for the sake of the story.

Recapping my posted definitions from an earlier comment:

According to the following, hyperlinked, sources, Plagiarism is:
deliberate
copying of language used,
copying of ideas,
copying of original, non-common knowledge material
and/or
paraphrasing another person’s spoken or written words.

All of the above actions are plagiarism without proper citation and documentation of sources. 

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism
2. http://www.wpacouncil.org/node/9
3. http://www.unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/plagiarism.html
4. http://www.ncusd203.org/central/html/where/plagiarism_stoppers.html

Following up to that, I think that the situation has come down to a high probability that she did not infringe on copyright, which is actionable,

and

a high probability that she did commit plagiarism, which is not legally actionable, unless you approach it from the fraud perspective.

Ethically?  That’s a completely different matter.

With a work published in 1984, Karla?
Dear me.

I’m glad the AP picked up this story, and I’m pleased that they didn’t adopt a “snickery” tone the way some media outlets do when talking about romance novels.

Also, to those who believe John M. Barrie slandered CE by stating that she lifted passages:

1. I’d go with libel, not slander, since it’s a printed comment.

2. In order for it to be slander OR libel, it has to be untrue. I assume the man with the plagiarism software can prove that the statement is true.

3. I believe CE would be considered a public figure, which means you’d have to prove that Barrie had actual malice when he said it. That is, the he knew the information was untrue but said it anyway. I doubt that’s the case.

I’m not a lawyer, but I’m a professor who teaches media law, so take that for what it’s worth.

I’m not sure why you attributed the quote to AP.  Why not just say there is a quote from Cassie Edwards and make it look like your quote?  What?  Whats wrong with that?  Oh sure, its not YOUR work, your effort that figured it out, but after all its what CEWD.
(Cassie Edwards would do).

Glad to see the head of a large writing organization supports authors just snagging their passages from elsewhere.  I guess anyone can write a book now, all you have to do is steal the right combination of paragraphs.

Learn The Cassie Edwards Style - Writing becomes a form of collage.

I’ve only read one CE book all the way through. I was 12, I think. The whole noble savage genre seemed insulting from the start, so I never read another one, but whatever. To each her own.

However, is a list of sources, even 1 or 2 books in an acknowledgments so frackin’ hard? But I guess Signet wanted to reserve that 1 page for a letter from CE that basically says, “I have a book out every 6 months! So go buy!”

And now I know why she can churn them out so bloody fast. I’ve always wondered! Thanks, Bitches, for answering THAT question!

Nikki,

OCD software can scan in a CE novel and then you could submit it to turnitin. I remember someone doing this to a few LKH novels and it was…illuminating.

I’m *pretty* sure slander/libel laws vary between the U.S. and the U.K., so whoever said you can be sued even if it’s true may be from the U.K.  But I welcome corrections from Brits if I’m wrong.  In the U.S., I’m 98% sure nobody can stop you from saying “so-and-so is a lying doodyhead!” if you have actual proof of their lies and doodyhead-dom.

Anyway, on to the topic at hand: I’ve written eight books, of which two are in print and a third is on the way.  That third?  Happens to be historical.  I read a crap-ton of research material for that one, and no, there are no citations in the book itself.  I did not, however, quote any of my research directly, with or without cosmetic paraphrasing.  (I save that kind of thing for the research papers, which I also write; in those cases, citation city.)  What I am going to do?  Throw a bibliography up on my website before the book comes out, so anybody who wants to know where I got my facts can find out.

There are two possible levels of usage here: usage of ideas, and usage of the way the ideas are expressed.  I frankly don’t think the former should be footnoted, much less paranthetically cited, in fiction, because that breaks the illusion of the story.  If the idea is central and/or unusual, though, then give credit where credit is due; put something at the front or back of the book saying, “hey, this cool person’s work is where I got it from.”  The usage of the way the ideas are expressed . . . folks, there’s this thing called “style.”  Nonfiction style and fiction style?  Usually not the same.  Dropping in quotes from nature articles is a bad idea from a craft point of view, whether you cite it or not.  Save that kind of thing for the epigraphs, the little stand-alone quotes you use to start off a chapter or section or book.

And whatever you do, don’t try to pretend you didn’t notice you were copying whole paragraphs, or that its public domain nature means you’re being any less disrespectful of your sources.

Randi, did they post that online? I would so love to see what LKH turned up.

The concept of plagiarism (and the attendant knowledge that it is WRONG to do it) has been around far longer than Ms Edwards has been on the planet.

Going by the evidence quoted in this blog, she didn’t start lifting entire sentences and paragraphs (i.e., plagiarizing, for the slow out there), just last year, as a poor old, fragile, lady. (And, for the record, my mother, who’s older than CE by a full two years, would kick my ass where I to think of her as fragile just because of her age—let alone use old age to defend wrongdoings.)

Going by the evidence, she’s been doing this for years. Perhaps her entire career.

When someone says, “but she’s an old lady, don’t be mean to her!” to defend CE’s wrongdoing, I read, “if you steal consistently for decades before you are discovered, you won’t have to face the music.”

When someone says, “you are not a writer, you are not successful, you are just bitter” to defend anyone’s wrongdoing, I read, “you are envious of this person getting away with unethical/criminal behaviour, and only wish you had been *smart* enough to do it yourself, neener!” (which speaks volumes more to me about the naysayer than about the whistleblower, personally).

Whether the people finding the evidence have lives or not; whether they are successful*** or not; whether they are envious or bitter or whatever the hell they may be: if the evidence is there, available for anyone else to check, then all those things do not matter. The whistleblower is not the unethical person here.

Trying to turn this into a “how dare you, bitter bitches, accuse successful CE—even if there’s evidence, nacht” is contemptible.

In my not-at-all humble opinion.

Which, gee, I don’t have to have any credentials neither to have nor to share publicly.






*** “successful” by the naysayer’s definition.

Boy, it’s news to me that something can be slander (or even libel) EVEN IF IT’S TRUE!  *gasp*  Thank God we don’t have any of that awful free speech around her. Yikes.

Gab, I’d say that the reason the pub companies don’t check for plagiarism (aside from saving money) is that professionals are supposed to have learned those lessons already. We (presumably) all finished high school, and though there wasn’t as much focus on it in my day because we didn’t have the temptation of the internet, we all learned about plagiarism in English class. And then there was college, where you can be kicked out.

More importantly, we all sign contracts stating that we are the “sole author of the work”. 

In other words, our publishers don’t check to make sure we aren’t cheating, just as other employers don’t look for cheating employees unless there’s sudden evidence. As adults, it’s assumed we know right from wrong. (Not implying that you don’t, btw.)