Smart Bitches, Trashy Books

But what if your heroine IS a gang member?  Or former?

Since I’ve been known to write articles for the RWR with totally tongue-in-cheek rating systems that get me stopped in airports by outraged RWA members after a conference, I should probably keep my mouth shut.

Not.

Unless publishers adopt the SB rating system, I’m so not interested.  It’s LANGUAGE.  Words.  Strong reaction.  Bingo!

Omg. I’d love to have a SMART BITCH ADVISORY on one of my books. *grin*

Can I have the ‘heroine cussing when battling aliens and demons’ one for my demon hunter books please? I believe one of my heroines says “motherfucker”. That ho.

But ‘you big ole’ meanie’ just didn’t have the right amount of impact for the scene. Go figure. ;-)

LOLOLOLOL!
First, thank you for the laugh! I needed that after an absolutely horrible night at work ( to be followed by going back there in about an hour!)

But this takes me back to an argument I had with someone in regards to taking my 12 yr old son to a rock concert. The person said “But the lead singer uses the “F-Bomb” on stage!!??”. I replyed that anyone 12 years old that had not heard that particular word before must be living in/on another world.

I know in my mother’s age group ( that would be 65+) those words are concidered MAJORLY taboo. But I grew up hearing it everywhere ( and at 40+, I’m no “spring chicken” here lol!)so it doesn’t offend me too much in the right context. I wouldn’t be too pleased to see one as a general greeting- i.e. ” How’s it hanging, Motherf****r”. But kicking demon arse? Oh yeah, call them as you see them!

As for ratings on books? Oh please! Someone shoot the PC police for me!!?? I’m begging here. I can’t believe that grown adults have come to rely on anyone or everyone to “clean up” for them. Ok, so the author in question uses “foul language”. A simple search online, or perhaps talking with someone that has already read said book could have solved that problem. If your that sensitive to that sort of thing.
Which I’m not- so I don’t!

I know a good way to find out what you’re getting before it’s too late. Read the fricking back cover. Flip through the book. Use that thing called a head.

Surely it’s possible to write a gutsy heroine without having her talk like a gang member.

Hmmmm… She may not have meant it that way, but there is a definite racist undertone to her rant. 

Mind you, maybe she was thinking of white gang members. *cough* *cough*.

Can we buy custom advisories from you? I guess she’s not picking up a copy of Big Spankable Asses…

Omg, please say I can use these advisories on my website. Pleeease???

I don’t know what kind of person I am anymore. Not only do I say “fuck” a lot, but I’m not even battling demons or vamps at the time. Usually I’m battling fatigue while cleaning Legos off the floor. Or discussing the day’s politics with my hubby. Or telling a joke. Damn me. I think I’m a gang banger. *cough, cough*

Madeline, my heroines cuss because I cuss (and yes I am a mother and a wife and a law-abiding citizen)and my girlfriends cuss. My heroes cuss BECAUSE THEY ARE BOYS. Look it up. It’s true.

Yeah, because rating systems work so well in giving folks a clear idea of what to expect in other media formats. I mean, Beaches and Van Helsing are both rated PG-13, so if you saw one you know exactly what you’re getting into with the other, right?

I would also love to know what it was about the paranormal romance that she threw across the room that made it not a romance in her mind.  The language?  The monsters?  The lack of a HEA?

I don’t see anything wrong with warnings on the cover of a book.  I’m liberal as the day is long but part of being liberal is understanding that other people disagree with my ethics and it’s OK to accept them as they are.

It hurts no one if there is a small blurb on the cover saying “this book uses extreme language” for those people who are happiest avoiding such things.

Personally, I’d like to see a warning similar to “this book does not end by the last page because the author is writing a series” or “this book contains some fairly awful love scenes” or “this book was written with such a tight formula that if you’ve read any other books by this author you may as well put it down right now”

She could be reading Anita “Fuck me, fuck me while I’m tight!” Blake. In which case there should be an advisory for wet, sloppy, furry, badly written sex.

KTG

I spent half of summer semester in an intellectual freedom class, which consisted about as much of explaining why libraries shouldn’t put any kind of advisory notices on books as anything else.  It’s a minor form of censorship.  It might not actually restrict anybody’s borrowing priviledges, but:

a) Once the books with advisories are labelled, then it becomes possible to start restricting the labelled books.
b) People might be reluctant to pick up a book with an advisory warning even if it otherwise seems to appeal to them.

Besides the fact that some readers might feel embarrassed about checking something out with an advisory sticker on it, the person might assume the “offensive content” they’re being warned against is offensive to them without actually knowing the details.  After all, if she’s relying on an “offensive language” sticker without flipping through the book, then she doesn’t know if it’s being used by the antagonist, the heroine, the heroine while killing aliens, during dirty talk, et cetera, and maybe this particular reader finds some of those uses acceptable.  Say there’s an advisory warning for sexuality.  Some readers might think that merits a warning on the basis of how detailed the description is, no matter what the other circumstances.  Some of them might think anything goes if the characters are married, but want to be warned about any sexual content at all between unmarried characters.  (And yes, some of these distinctions are the kind of thing that I’m more likely to think about because odds are if somebody comes into a library to complain that a book needs a warning label, it’s somebody who wants to “protect the children.”)  Some people think it doesn’t matter what happens as long as the bad things are done by bad people who get punished.

The fact is that it’s impossible to have warning labels on books without imposing a certain moral perspective, because even if the labels just state what is in the books, the choice of what to put on the label assumes that the type of content is what a person needs to be warned about, and that the degree of that content featured in that book is what a person needs to be warned about.  You couldn’t detail the exact amount of every type of potentially offensive content in a book without generating a label that’s longer than the cover copy.

I’ll tell you why on the no ratings systems—because who decides what “extreme language” is?  Is it hell or damn?  Does it take a shit to put it over the edge or is it only a fuck?  Maybe one is okay, but not when used as a compound noun (ie, motherf*cker?)

Who decides?

And then…say they do decide…what if some very conservative group decides to target, oh, Barnes & Noble, and pressure them not to carry any books with ratings above PG?  Then writers will have to change their books just to get into the bookstores.

We are not the film industry where we have to worry about kids going to movies their parents don’t approve of. We’re all adults.  Besides, ratings aren’t catch-alls anyway.  And if we start rating by language, then we’ll also have to rate by sex, too.  And then by violence.  And again, who decides?

Better to “use the head” as another poster suggested.  I’m sorry she doesn’t think realistic language belongs in a romance novel…well, then she can find authors who don’t feel compelled to be realistic and stick with them.

Go, Estelle.  You said it much more intelligently than I did!

Honestly, the words themselves don’t bother me, but the context of their use can.

Toss in a heartfelt “Fuck”, when the heroine is in danger by said vampire, or a great “fuck you” slung towards some guy who so richly deserves it, and I’m ok.

It’s when the hero from the 1800s uses it in a crass manor to get back at the pure virginal heroine—in the context of “do you like the idea of having other men fuck you?” That my squick factor gets turned on (and not in a good way).

Life isn’t a journey that’s mapped out—from time to time you’re going to turn onto a road or run into a fuck that you weren’t expecting.

It’s when the hero from the 1800s uses it in a crass manor to get back at the pure virginal heroine—in the context of “do you like the idea of having other men fuck you?”

Oo. See, I kinda like that. Heehee. It’s funny because it’s true.

LOL Love the advisory- gave me a much needed chuckle!

Can there be one that says: completely defies any sense (common or otherwise) at all till unlikely HEA?

I don’t mind cursing in books. People swear and anyone who’s ever been in traffic knows that there are moments when only inventive cursing will save lives and sanity. What I do mind is swearing for the sake of it.

One summer I lived next to a building site and there was this guy who liked to speak on his mobile phone directly beneath my open window, so every morning I woke up to a stream of ‘feck, fecking etc’ (he was Irish, hence the ‘e’ instead of the ‘u’ ). Eventually I had to ask him to f-off. He was appalled to hear such language from a woman! Go figure…

From the useless facts(?) file:

An old history professor of mine once told me that the word “fuck” was NOT concidered *taboo* until the time of Queen Victoria. SHE felt it was a very crass word, and therefore banned it in polite society.

This, he said, was the whole start of the “7-dirty-words-you-can’t-say-in-public” thing. I don’t know if he was totally correct or not, ( but it does make sense!) but I thought I’d throw this out there.
Useless knowledge I know. And probably not in keeping with the topic entirely. But it did pop into my mind while reading all this

I totally agree, KTG.  The only book that I’ve ever treated with such disgust that I felt the need to turn it into a rectangular frisbee was… shit, I’ve forgotten the name.  *quickly asks friend*  Cerulean Sins.  And that wasn’t necessarily due to the squicky bad bad sex (seriously, she can’t write sex to save her girl-parts) as much as it was the total destruction of ... umm.  Not Anita, the “bad” chick.  Bell-something.  (And now all I can think is Bellatrix!  Argh, wrong series!)  Anyway, the way she tucked tail and fell apart at the “Wrath of the Gleaming Orifice” just sickened me to the point of launching my book so hard it dented the wall. 

As for heroines cussing in books, the only time I find it off-putting is when it’s a “historical” novel.  Because we all know the nice girls didn’t even THINK bad words back then.  *snort*

But still, if my present time heroines want to go fuck an asshole (erm, not literally…okay, so maybe literally, too), I’m all for letting them think, say, and act on it.  *g*

Oh, I loved the advisorys! And yeah, I would love finding the “part of a series book” ... I am waiting for a book’s second part since 2005!

Personally, I find HER offensive.  First she is suggesting censorship, second, she is telling me that I need help in choosing my reading material via “warning labels”, and third, she is telling other authors how to write their books? 

Maybe I am being oversensitive :P

Oh Fuck!

Was CHEYENNE SURRENDER a sequel to APACHE RUNAWAY and LAKOTA RENEGADE? I wonder how Madeline Baker’s love scenes are? Does she use the word Cock?

Dang, my books would need all those warnings, except the first one.

“I don’t know what kind of person I am anymore. Not only do I say “fuck” a lot, but I’m not even battling demons or vamps at the time. Usually I’m battling fatigue while cleaning Legos off the floor. Or discussing the day’s politics with my hubby. Or telling a joke. Damn me. I think I’m a gang banger. *cough, cough*”

You and me both Victoria :)

Perhaps Madeline should stick to Inspirational or YA books or maybe even the Bible…though as I recall there is some pretty racy stuff in there as well…

I want an advisory that says “So bad you’ll want your money back.” 

(It’s happened to me twice in the last month.  For the first time ever.  Yeah, they were that bad.)

Hilarious, bitches, as per usual.

This topic reminds me of that other kerfuffle that happened last year-ish…you know, the one with the annoying chick who said something…Fuck.  I think her first name was Jenny or Jaaaa…  Damn it something with a J.  Jan!!!  That’s it.  She wrote some bullshit article about censorship maybe.  What the fuck was it again?  Does anyone remember?

Shit, where’s my gingko and my 9mm?

Bravo, Estelle!!  We weren’t in the same Intellectual Freedom class, were we?  Was Mary Minow the prof?

I want one that says

Contains Teh Ghey Buttsecks and suxxoring of cock

That last advisory made me laugh rather embarrassingly out loud, I think because I was picturing Samuel L. Jackson saying it.

But only if it also has page numbers!

Yes, yes, must have the “this book is part of a series” advisory!  I’ve been burned too many times.  There are few things that rile me more than finding out SURPRISE!! this book is not actually over!  There is no emotional release, no wrapping up of the plot, that way you’ll be sure to buy my next book when it comes out in a couple years!  Ummm, no.

I hate being dicked around like that.  I will strike you from my buying list.  But if you write good books that have a satisfying ending, I will follow you through hell, high water, and series longer than Mercedes Lackey’s and Stephen King’s backlists combined.

Cecille: I woke up to a stream of ‘feck, fecking etc’ (he was Irish, hence the ‘e’ instead of the ‘u’ ). Eventually I had to ask him to f-off. He was appalled to hear such language from a woman! Go figure…

Oh no, I think you may have misunderstood, Cecille!  Feck is not an Irish mispronunciation, it’s an entirely different (and quite mild) curse word.  For example, you might say “This fecking yoke is banjaxed”, meaning “this irritating object is broken”.  It’s maybe the equivalent of “damn”, probably even milder.  Poor guy, he was probably mystified by your reaction…

Teddy, I wanna read that book. And maybe we can have an advisory sticker for offensive Celtic stereotypes. It can be green! With shamrocks! And say “och, och, och!”

Hmm.  I admit I don’t like alot of cussing in my books.  Sam Starrett of Suz Brockmann’s books cussed about every other word.  It really became tiresome.  I don’t mind the judicious use of an expletive but constant cursing loses any power of the expletive. 

It may be how people talk in real life, but people use alot of bridges in real life as well but reading them is very tiresome.

Uh, how did you get here?
Uh, I got here by taking the bus.
Dude, really?  I thought you hated the bus.
Uh, yeah. 
Um, no way.
Uh huh.

Fascinating dialogue that I heard this morning that if I read in a book, I am sure I would toss it aside.

I say or think f*ck at least twice a day and I am not a gang member. I guess in her world doctors, attorneys, god-forbid teachers say motherf*cker.

Warning labels on books? I hate when people try to force their morals down other people’s throats.

Could someone please explain to me what HEA means?  (iz embarrassed)

Forgive if I sound criminally unhip, but I’ve been wondering what it means when you spell butt sex like buttsecks?

I feel silly for even asking, but someone tell me anyway.

I’m continually and honestly mystified by the number of people who want to read about fucking, but don’t want to read the word “fucking”. It boggles my tiny little brain.

Ser’sly. There can be forced seduction, and hard core deflowering, and fingering in the carriage, and doin’ it on horseback and fellatio and sucking and woman on her knees on the cover and hard, angry sex… but let’s not be vulgar about it, shall we?

Yes, some people like it sweet, but there are plenty that like it nasty… but with the clean language, por favor. Can anyone explain?

HEA = happily ever after.

do you know about the buttsecks thing?

HEA = happy ever after

Could we have a TSTL advisory, please? As a historicals reader, I could also use a Major Anachronisms alert.

I can has gimme my money?
Because I just closed one ebook for it’s lack of dialogue. I can’t bitch about the vocabulary, because it had none! It’s all he did this, went there, talked to that person…
Damn the author, spend worthlessly my money!

HEA = Happily Ever After

Nothing dates quicker than slang, linguistic moral standards and Advisory Warnings. But you’ve got another vote here for the “part of a series” sticker. As long as it is a lame series that is…

I don’t mind seeing those words in books, just like I don’t wince upon hearing them in real life.  But I don’t like characters (or actual people, for that matter) who use those words too much.  An over-reliance on cussing makes me think that the character has a limited vocabulary.  Those words are more effective when used sparingly.

Slash = man on man romance containing secks (same as sex).

Buttsecks (what slashers do in their romances) same as butt sex.

Both slash in romance novels and the word “buttsecks” has spilled over into romance novels via online fandom

(iz my observation)

I just read some of the Harlequin Blaze books. And not only was FUCK in the heroine’s mouth, but so was cock. I put the book down because it sucked. Not because people swore. The swearing was probably the only part worth reading the book was so bad. I’m not overly I’m pressed by swearing, but Stephen King was using the F word long before the romance writers who should have been using it right along got a hold of it.

Kensington’s Aphrodisia books actually come with a warning. They say:

WARNING!
This is a REALLY HOT book. (Sexually Explicit)

I’m sure the warning (which is printed onto the back of every book) increases sales. And the warning is correct. The books are hot. But with titles like PURE SEX and BIG SPANKABLE ASSES, one might have figured that out. Maddy Baker, beware!

Yeah. Sigh.  I got some of that too - “gasp! there is bad language! and violence! in a romance novel!”  Well, yeah, a romance novel with Atlanteans and vampires and shapeshifters fighting for control of the world.  As my editor said, “what are they going to do, thumb wrestle?”

Neasa: thanks for clarifying. :) I never realized that it was actually a milder oath (I’m not a native English speaker and er, simply assumed. My bad!). No wonder he was so bewildered, but at least it stopped him from waking me up with loud early morning phone calls beneath my bedroom window…possibly because there was a crazy-haired madwoman shouting in abusive language down at him early in the morning…

Re Kensington’s Aphrodisia line:  holy shit.

I just read Nicholas the Satyr or Lords of Satyr:  Nicholas or something so entitled and by the third page here come the men with the double penises that are sooo convenient for that moment when you feel the need to be ass fucked whilst the other gleaming orifice (or is one’s asshole The Gleaming Orifice?) is otherwise occupied and feel squimish about having multiple partners.

Perhaps an advisory that says, “warning anatomically impossible fellow in this one” would be appropriate.

The main library in my hometown has a small poster explaining the various levels of ‘hotness’ found in Harlequin/Silhouette books (i.e., H. Presents is a PG-13, and S. Desire is an R).  I don’t think it’s for censorship, though—I think it’s just like A Quick Guide to this Bewildering Array of Series Romance Novels.  I’m OK with that, but . . . warnings?  Seriously.  Are we actively trying to keep people from having to think?  That isn’t going to help things, people.

But I really want more Smart Bitch Advisories.  Especially TSTL, Part of a Series, and So Bad You’ll Want Your Money Back. :-D

Oh! You should read the warnings in Samhain’s books, they are sooooo funny! I do not know who writes them, but hope he/she keeps his/her job!

It is really not that difficult to make a fairly accurate “guestimate” about what kind of language and so forth you are going to find in a book if you do a little research before you buy.  The Inspirational romances are usually pretty easy to pick out.  One author who writes contemporaries with pretty good sex and little cursing is Catherine Anderson.  There rarely any surprises with her so if you can stomach Oregoners who talk like Texans and saccharine sweet heroines who are always either physically or emotionally challenged she is a good one. Somehow I think Ms. Baker would be okay with that.  And there are lots of authors like that if one looks around to find them.  Historicals usually don’t have much cursing unless the are erotica or “romantica” and those are usually labeled as such.  I just don’t see the problem.

If Ms Baker is an antivulgarian, she might want to rethink the banner saying “Bite me”:

I hope Madeline Baker never read LV’s Passion.  She probably would have fainted dead away.

She wants censorship?  For real?  If that happens, it won’t be long before romance novels are like video games.  People under 18 won’t be able to buy a book that’s sexually explicit b/c they could turn into a slut.

Pul-lease.

Man, I still tell people that I “cuss like a sailor.”  I guess I’m way, WAY outdated.

Especially given the sailors on the Johanna Lindsey book covers. I’m thinking they don’t cuss at ALL.

In any case, real people cuss.  Real women cuss.  I rather like seeing that reflected in what I read.  For me, Sam Starrett is pretty much an authentic representation of most guys I know (if a lot hotter), and that’s the kind of stuff that appeals to me.

Ratings and warnings would be ridiculous.  Just like the trend in fan fiction now to “warn” for everything in the header…geesh, if you’re going to tell me there’s rimming, noncon, and something involving a goat, a hairbrush covered in hedgehogs, and a tub of butter before the jump, why should I even click on the link?

When it comes to romance, if you’re not warning for the sex-on-a-horse, the racism, the marital rape, and the general “Warning: This is a Cassie Edwards book, see above,” why bother? 

Read the back, read the cover blurb, flip through, and find out for yourself. Why must everything be spelled out?

Everything comes down to the story. Is it appropriate to the characters and the plot? Does it give the book the right tone? In a book about a cop or a firefighter or a soldier, there’s gonna be cussing! Otherwise it’s not a real cop or firefighter or soldier, whether male or female.

omg, can you please make one that says Liberal Author?

One warning I’d really like to see is “This story actually ends 100 pages before the end of this book, after that it’s recipes (Feehan’s Dark Celebration) or a Christmas story (one of Sherrilyn Kenyon’s Dark Hunter books)”. If I wanted to pay for 50 pages of recipes from Christine Feehan’s fans I’d buy a damned cookbook!

“This story actually ends 100 pages before the end of this book, after that it’s recipes (Feehan’s Dark Celebration) or a Christmas story (one of Sherrilyn Kenyon’s Dark Hunter books)”

or fan mail (Dara Joy)

Oh.  I didn’t click on the link until I after I left my comment.  Let me see if I have this straight now.  She is an author who writes contemporary paranormals…and she doesn’t like cussing.  Hmmm.  Maybe this is a marketing strategy because I am a bit tempted to buy one of her books just to see how (or if) in the holy motherfucking shit damn she is going to pull that off .

Love the last one, great idea TeddyPig. I’ll just sit here evil laughing and making my cats worried for a while.

I love them, I want them, I LOVE THEM ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!
You sure know how to make me laugh!
*tries not to reasure her neighbours that she is in fact crazy enough to laugh alone*

Sarah, thanks for providing the gheysecks page numbers.  Checking page 2 right now….

Perhaps what the would-be labelers need is an outlet for their disgust.  Each store and library could create a label-ghetto.  I’m picturing a dedicated table full of books with fill-in-the-blank advisory stickers:

May Contain Offensive Material On Pages
___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___

to be filled in by whoever is so inclined.  That would give the labelers something to do, and keep them out of my hair while I check pages 14, 52, and 89.

QUESTION ABOUT SERIES:

I know this isn’t the topic, but I gotta ask…how do you feel about a series where the story ENDS but there is an overall storyarc that you get in pieces?

For instance, Julie Kenner’s DEMON HUNTING SOCCER MOM series.  Each story has a beginning, middle and end.  The main conflict of that story is resolved…but there is an overall storyline where they just got a few more pieces of the puzzle.  Like Harry Potter, I guess.  And Stephanie Bond’s Body Movers.  I love this kind of series.

What I don’t like is the same as everyone else…where the story just STOPS.  That happened to me once with a paranormal romance (I knew it was part of a series, but I certainly didn’t expect it to just STOP without the villain of the book ever being confronted by the hero or heroine) and I was shocked.  Is this the way most people do it in paranormal romance?

I have a reason for asking of course.  I’m doing a paranormal series.  Each story definitely ends—the conflict in the story is resolved.  But there is an overall story question that won’t—theoretically—be answered until the final book.  However, since I am an author who had another series stopped before I could finish it, I’m very aware of both wanting and needing closure with each book I have.

Opinions?

Hey, can we get warning stickers for mind control? It’s only an issue for paranormals, really, but I really wish the books I’d encountered it in had warned me.

Julie -
I enjoy the kind of series you described.  I don’t mind if the paranormal or suspense part of the storyline continues or ends with cliffhanger as long as I feel like the relationship between the hero and herione has been resolved in a satisfying way.

Nora Roberts is especially good with that.  Her Key, Garden, and Circle trilogies are all great examples of books where I felt the individual romances were solid and the stories were, in many ways, complete but I was also excited about the theme and ready for the next book to come out.

LMAO!  May I take one of these for my blog?  Will cred.

Julie,

That is just the kind of series that I do appreciate.  Each book is a separate entity, a story unto itself, but there’s an idea or story arc that runs through all of them.  Sort of like a TV show without all the cruel cliffhangers.

And, I totally agree with karibelle.  La Nora (all bow to the Queen) does it extremely well in her trilogies.  You’re dying to find out what happens next, but you haven’t been shafted out of your HEA, either.

okay, I don’t agree with her, but she has every right to her opinion. I think trashing her because she had the guts to spout her opinion isn’t really fair. I don’t know her and it’s not my place to judge her, even if she judges me for the fact that FUCK is my favorite word (and very empowering as well) and that I am writing a vampire YA for Harper Collins(actually titled Bite Me! which I find extremely ironic) and that my little 17 yo vampire heroine is a bit foul-mouthed. That’s her problem. But she has the right to have that problem. I just happen to disa-motherfuckin-gree with her opinion.

Julie,

Those are the only types of series that I can actually handle: all books are part of an arc, but each can be read as a stand alone as well.  I can’t stand cliffhangers.  I read a lot of paranormals and I prefer them this way, additionally, each book contributes a bit to the world creation, without making the story a burdensome/convoluted/over detailed read.

M.

I don’t agree with her, but she has every right to her opinion.

I have no problem with her reading choices, nor with her stating her opinion.  I do have a problem with the proposal to label books others read:

I’d like to see some kind of rating on books so that I’ll know what I’m getting before it’s too late.

If a reader has specific criteria, it’s up to her to skim the book and see if they’re met.

Oh my god, I’ve never laughed so hard in my life with these covers!

Please, bring on the “fucks”; “motherfuckers”; and all other such cussing.

“It’s bad enough when language like this is uttered by the villain, but when it comes out of the mouth of the heroine… well, I’m just plain stunned. Surely it’s possible to write a gutsy heroine without having her talk like a gang member.”

Why is it okay for a villain (notice she made it gender specific and therefore male) to cuss but not a female?  What sort of archaic notion is she holding here?  A woman can’t curse and still be feminine?

And boo on her for the racist attitude.  Madeline, racism is not cool.

The main conflict of that story is resolved…but there is an overall storyline where they just got a few more pieces of the puzzle.

Yeah but it seems to be kind of like movies.  Trilogies can tell an epic story that simply doesn’t fit into one movie.  When you start getting into Freddie #5 or Jaws #4?  Not so great.

And btw?  I SO want to read the book the last advisory belongs to.  ;)

iffygenia,

I agree 100% that it’s up to the reader to determine what his/her tolerance level is and to buy accordingly. I am very opposed to censorship of any kind. Even on CDs for explicit lyrics. That’s the parents’ job, not the record label. And it’s kinda insulting too, because frankly, where as I’m not in the least offended by motherfucking curse words, I am hugely offended by bigotry and religious zealots.  And that’s the moral code I live by—so there would be no way to decide which standards to should be used as “the standards” for warnings/censoring the books.

It’s a ludicrous idea…just as those awful “graphical standards” and the “definition of romance” ideas were.

Julie,

I only like series if the main protagonist is different in each book.  I read Romance Novels for the girl-gets-boy HEA ending and feel cheated if I have to buy more than one book to get there.

I don’t buy that warning labels=censorship.  I don’t care if a professor taught that in a class somewhere.

Can warning labels be used TO censor things by trying to weed out books, records, movies with certain warnings?  Yes.  But my hairbrush can be used to beat my daughter.  That doesn’t make my hairbrush abusive.

I’m avoiding leaving for carpool because, frankly, I hate carpool, so I’m just gonna keep on discussing.

ladypeyton,

I see your point but (I love the buts, don’t you?) I think the reason warning labels do = censorship for me is because the label judges a work by one person’s or one committee’s collective opinion. What is offensive to one person isn’t to another and the artist is who suffers.

Let’s use the movies as an example. Are you going to Rate a book R because they describe full frontal nudity or would you rate that X? If the book only bares the breasts and doesn’t describe the male then is that an R rating? And then we get into the language part. I believe a movie must be R rated if it says Fuck more than x number of times and if it ever uses the word Fuck as a verb. (I swear I read this somewhere, could be making it up, it happens) Well, isn’t that unfair to YA authors who use the F-word in their books? YA books are now R rated? That’s censorship because what parent (besides me) would “allow” their 14 year old daughter read an R rated book?

I don’t buy that warning labels=censorship.  I don’t care if a professor taught that in a class somewhere.

Totally disagree there, labels of all sorts provide wonderful ways of dismissing books and not judging content for yourself.

You basically ask others to judge the content of a book for you. We all know how well that works.

I dislike the idea that we as a society have this unquestioned responsibility to provide diligent labeling of stories and movies for content because it might hurt kids or some old bitch’s sensibilities.

Why not ask parents to be more active and involved in what their children are doing? Ask the old bitch to take more time in choosing what the hell she is reading?

Put the responsibility back on their lazy fat asses where it belongs.

If you are reading Playboy do not whine at me about the fucking centerfold!

Mel,

We’re talking apples and oranges.  You describe a ratings system and I’m talking about warning labels.  They’re two different animals.

A label for potentially offensive language is NOT going to deter someone who doesn’t care if offensive language is used.  A label for slash, OTOH, will save me $8 since I don’t care to EVER read man-on-man secks.  It makes me uncomfortable.  I don’t deny its right to exist.  I don’t look down on other people who read it and love it.  I’m a staunch defender of gay rights and believe in gay marriage but I don’t wanna read explicite descriptions of buttsecks. I’d seriously appreciate THAT warning.

I think book labels should be as informative as possible and warning labels (which haven’t done a thing to harm sales of music with explicite lyrics since the Tipper Gore days) would merely be a part of that process.

I’ll bet Ms. Baker doesn’t read “Smart Bitches”. She would have a heart attack over this one!

Teddy,

Totally disagree there, labels of all sorts provide wonderful ways of dismissing books and not judging content for yourself.

Well, that’s the POINT isn’t it?  There are things I don’t WANT to read.  You seem to think I have a moral obligation to read everything published in order to have an opinion.  No.  Reading fiction is merely a hobby.  Why should I spend money and time (both of which are precious) on something I don’t want to be exposed to in my leisure time?

If I can chose between a Mystery novel and a Romance novel why can’t I chose between slash and het or books with and without swear words?

Oh my GOD, I haven’t laughed so hard in a while!

I remember one potential blurber elected not to blurb my first book because the heroine—a demon—“dropped the F-bomb” one too many times.

Damned impolite demons…

“short56”—well yes, I am short. But I’m not 56.

Whenever someone is offended by OMG the cusswords, I feel an immediate need to quote Eric Cartman:

“Fuck fuck fuckety fuck. What’s the big fucking deal?”

They’re just collections of letters (in print) or sound (in speech). There’s nothing magical about them. Any offense felt is purely on the part of the reader/listener.

I am so glad that my brain is largely immune to this stuff. It must be very tiring getting all hoppity over things that have nothing whatsoever to do with you.

ladypeyton,

I see your point. I guess in my mind, Ratings and Warning labels go hand in hand. The fact is, the warning labels would be much more generic than, “Warning: Contains M&M buttsecks.” It would be “Warning: explicit sexual content” or “Warning: explicit language” and then parents would start flipping out. And many people who would normally have read the book would say “Oh no! I can’t read this. It’s smut!” Because explicit sexual content could be anywhere from heavy petting (doesn’t that just sound gross) in a teen novel, to M&M buttsecks.

If we have a warning label other than THIS BOOK IS BY CASSIE EDWARDS, how do we determine their wording? Frankly, I think just as many people would be offended by the label “Warning: explicit homosexual content” as they would accidentally picking up a novel that contains material they find offensive.

I dunno. Does that make any sense at all or am I just rambling…still avoiding carpool…

So Ms. Baker takes offense at the cussing but not at the sex scenes?  And doesn’t approve of paranormal because there’s a story other than romance going on there, is that correct?

Can anyone find her some old Barbara Cartland books?

“Warning: explicit sexual content”

LULZ!  What a useless label for a romance novel!  What RN doesn’t have expicit sexual content!

I think a more appropriate warning would be “Warning DOESN’T have explicit sexual content.  Nope.  No reason to be alone in your bunk with THIS one!”

ladypeyton,

The point is you are not asking to know if the book is Mystery or Science Fiction or Romance. You are asking someone else to judge what actions take place in the story between characters and add a label providing this information. That is very different.

In that case I still say… read the blurb the author wrote on the back of the book or just read the damn book.

This conversation reminds me of the 1964 film financed by Charles Keating called Perversion for Profit. Here it is on You Tube…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl2VrPhQBfE

The movie was a call to arms over Magazines and Paperbacks “new technologies” and “distribution networks” providing porno to our kids.
It was the end of the world in 1964 I tell you.
Kids could “accidentally” be exposed to porno at the local drugstore or bus station magazine rack.

I am sure we have all lived with those scars for years now. How did we survive?

I read one of MB’s books under her other name Amanda Ashley - Whisper of Eternity - hated it. Never seen anything more like a block of wood.

Don’t understand her complaint: she’s reading books geared toward adults which means the characters are going to be doing adult things.

But even without that, isn’t that why we have reviewers? Somebody who can read the book and say this is for people who love reading about the buttsecks on pages 14, 35-55 (Anita Blake)and 102-115; who adore scenes with extreme oral sex (I read that phrase somewhere, it boggles the mind). I mean a decent review would clue a person in about scary stuff. There’s also reading the excerpt on the back or browsing a few pages.

She is entitled to be offended at whatever she wants to be offended by but I resent the fact that she expects other people to takes steps to try to figure out what she gets offended by.

Only gang members say fuck? Where is she hanging out?

Saying “fuck” makes you a gang member?

... wow. Wish someone would’ve told me that earlier. By now, I must be like… all hardcore and shit. ^_^

I so totally have books that need that MOTHERFUCKER advisory label. :D

Oh yeah? Well I don’t like books where the twenty something heroine dresses up in a silk pantsuit for a hot night on the town and talks like a 60 year old member of the red hat club, but you don’t see me complaining.

As Lucinda mentioned, the Aphro books do have that warning. It’s been the source of many a snicker as friends (not necessarily romance readers) have picked up my books.

Personally I’d like a weenus alert for all those books with lame ass beta type heroes, or if the author has dared to make him less than six feet tall. “Warning:  this book contains midget sex.”

I asked a friend to borrow a book from her library for me because mine didn’t carry it.  She was happy to do so and when I got hold of it, it had a large, orange warning sticker on the front.  I can’t remember the exact wording, but it was something along the lines of “warning, explicit sex”.  I was really surprised to see it, but certainly read the book anyway (it was the “Wild Thing” anthology which had stories by Marjorie Liu, Meljean Brook and two other authors I can’t remember).  I don’t know how common this is as it isn’t my library system, but I’m rather disturbed by the whole thing.

On a less fundamental matter, it also gave my husband ammunition to make jokes about my reading material.  While it was done in a nice way, I could have done without that too.

(For the record, this is in New Zealand.)

You are asking someone else to judge what actions take place in the story between characters and add a label providing this information.

I think you used the word judge when you really should have used the word state.  It’s pretty hard to misunderstand when the F-bomb is dropped, or when a guy sticks his dick into another man’s butt, or a man has sex with an unwilling woman. Stating so on the cover harms no one.

Let’s take this back to the rape discussion last week.  How many people said they were unable to finish a book after they discovered a rape scene in a Romance novel?  How many of those people would have appreciated being able to know before hand that there was a rape scene by reading the cover?  Many of them, I’ll hesitate to say.

Would labels affect sales?  Hell yes. But again, that’s the point.  A label isn’t making a judgement.  It helps to prevent nasty surprises and IMO could only increase reader satisfaction because nasty book=frisbee moments could be minimized.

“Whenever someone is offended by OMG the cusswords, I feel an immediate need to quote Eric Cartman:

“Fuck fuck fuckety fuck. What’s the big fucking deal?” “

Awesome!  I LOVE Cartman!  hahahaha thanks for reminding me about that line!

It’s pretty hard to misunderstand when the F-bomb is dropped, or when a guy sticks his dick into another man’s butt, or a man has sex with an unwilling woman. Stating so on the cover harms no one.

Wrong wrong wrongety wrong.  And still subject to what M-o-D said:

there would be no way to decide which standards to should be used as “the standards” for warnings/censoring the books.

Say we take Ms Baker’s letter as an easy, objective way to determine what’s obscene: put a warning label on any book using the word “fuck”.  Easy, right?

But that test wouldn’t label her website obscene—and her website uses a much ruder phrase than most uses of “fuck”.  Is Ms Baker aware that “Bite me” means either “Bite my ass” or “Suck my dick”?  It’s just as sexual as “fuck”, AND it’s dismissive toward another person.  Describing an act as “fucking”?  That’s not innately rude; that’s in the eye of the beholder.  Saying “fuck you”?  That’s on a par with “Bite me”.

Now let’s take your example of labeling teh buttsecks.  A label would emphasize that aspect of the story, whether or not it’s a major theme.  So, even gay secondary characters get the whole book labeled?  And what about a story in which that relationship is a key surprise in the plot, or is important to the characters’ development?  That label would define the book too narrowly for a lot of interesting plots.  (Though I’m enjoying the idea of more detailed labels… “Minor buttsecks”, “Offstage buttsecks”, “Cover photo implies buttsecks”, “Flagrant buttsecks”, “M/m buttsecks”, “M/f buttsecks”, “Buttsecks with toys”... OK, this is too easy.)

Again, I think if you’re a really picky reader, it’s totally up to you to make those judgment calls.

Myself, I prefer to be a little surprised by where the story goes, so I’m not a fan of “The Australian Shipping Tycoon’s Lover’s Dance Career Ended By Secret Baby With Genetic Disorder [warning: contains references to Buddhist meditation, risky surgery, American politics, Vegemite, Land Rover, unwed motherhood, and a male character who wears pink ties]”.

. . . I just read this new comment:

What RN doesn’t have expicit sexual content!

Oooookay… now I wonder if we’re living on the same planet, or if you’re just enjoying winding us up on this topic.

I was going to say RIGHT ON! to the “This book contains no sex” warning, but I remembered the time I went browsing for “the good parts” in Edith Layton’s The Duke’s Wager and didn’t find any. I almost didn’t read it, but somehow or other I did, and it was awesome!  So another argument against labels… sometimes it’s good to get something you weren’t expecting or even thought you didn’t want.

Ladypeyton, there is a warning label on virtually all homoerotica. It’s called the Back Cover Of The Book, where there’s usually a blurb that indicates that men may be getting it on somewhere in the book.

For incidental m/m action (as in LKH’s books) I’m afraid you just have to trust the grapevine. Shocking, I know, but Amazon.com has plot synopses and reader comments for your researching pleasure.

Or perhaps you can resign yourself to the fact that asking other people to wrap you in a protective cocoon is ...naive at the least. Shit happens. You will sometimes slip in it. Your delicate sensibilities are a handicap, not a sign of higher refinement.

Personally, I would love it if books had warning labels on the theme of “Book is pretty good but author inexplicably includes a religious rant on page 287.” However, I will content myself with getting to page 287 and chucking the book against the wall in disgust and disappointment.

(wordver: truth19.  I swear, the SBs have some clever goblins in the system)

And what about a story in which that relationship is a key surprise in the plot, or is important to the characters’ development?

Why should it matter?  If I don’t want to read explicit M/M sex it doesn’t matter if it’s the primary or secondary plot element.  And it’s a surprise that I don’t want.  Just like people who don’t like rape scenes don’t want that surprise.

OTOH, how often are there explicit love scenes between minor characters in a romance novel?

Oooookay… now I wonder if we’re living on the same planet, or if you’re just enjoying winding us up on this topic.

Hooookay.  Now you’re being insulting for no reason.

I think we should all take a moment and ask ourselves What Would Jesus Do?

I have just found that he would…

Play Soccer
http://www.tenacioustoys.com/catalog/item/4843573/4878538.htm

Ride a Harley
http://www.tenacioustoys.com/catalog/item/4843573/4878536.htm

Surf
]http://www.tenacioustoys.com/catalog/item/4843573/4878556.htm]

So I can only guess, but I would say he says “Fuck” a whole bunch too.

>>when I got hold of it, it had a large, orange warning sticker on the front.  I can’t remember the exact wording, but it was something along the lines of “warning, explicit sex”.  I was really surprised to see it, but certainly read the book anyway (it was the “Wild Thing” anthology <<

Oh, HOLY SHIT!!!  I wrote part of a book that got a big-ass warning label!!!!  I’m so PROUD!!  If you send me a picture of it, I’ll love you forever!!!!
heeheehee.  One step closer to writing a banned book . . .

Ladypeyton, there is a warning label on virtually all homoerotica.

I’m not saying that there isn’t.

I’m saying that warning labels can only help readers be more happy with the product they buy.  The people who don’t care about the things being warned against will obviously feel free to ignore them while the people for whom those things matter will steer clear of that item and buy something that will make them happy.

Or perhaps you can resign yourself to the fact that asking other people to wrap you in a protective cocoon is ...naive at the least.

But you just stated that homoerotica already carries a label. How naive can I be?

Your delicate sensibilities are a handicap, not a sign of higher refinement.

Whoever said I felt I was more refined than others?  It’s merely an opinion. My opinion is no better or no worse than yours.  JUST like your opinion is no better or worse than mine.

OTOH, being insulting does nothing to forward your argument.

This made me laugh, because recently, a friend of mine critiqued my first Demon ER novel before I sent it to my editor.  She was disturbed by my liberal use of the “F-word,” and wanted to know why I felt the need to use it.

Um, well…my heroine grew up on the streets.  She fights demons for a living.  She’s a hard individual.

The other characters in the book?  DEMONS.  I didn’t think that “golly gee” would believably work in their dialogue…

Bravo, bee-yotch!

My book just got one of those “she used too many cuss words” reviews. It’s adult women’s fiction, folks. Grow up!

Speaking as an old hippie, I rebelled against being labelled back then, and I’m still rebelling against it now.  When books get slapped with big, orange warning stickers, the reader’s likely to get labelled as well.  And stigmatized. 

Awfukket.

That anyone would genuinely want to be protected from choosing poorly, and then being held responsible for their choices, just shocks me.  I continue to be disappointed by general humanity.

Ya pays your money, and ya takes your chances,... just like the rest of the grown-ups.

I’m sorry, Ladypeyton, but your opinion requires that other people should do the work for you. In my book, that makes your opinion a crock of shit.

Is it that damn hard to read the cover of a book? To ask someone else if the book contains something shocking? Or, Crom forbid, tostumble across an offending scene, read the first few sentences, and say, “Crap, this isn’t what I signed on for!” and then put the book down?

Publishers do all that they can to make sure that their books end up in the hands of people who want ‘em. They’re not interested in offending the unsuspecting; they’re interested in finding readers who will come back for the author’s next book. If you can’t tell from the packaging that a particular book might possiblymaybeperhaps contain something that offends you, then you’re not processing data very well.

If you want to be sure you never, ever, ever accidentally stumble across some m/m action, there are many thousands of children’s books for you to choose from.

Surely you don’t live in the land of rainbows and giggles. Take some responsibility for your choices.

OMG, I bow to you, almighty Teddy Pig.  I luuuurrve that video!  It’s right up there with the Dragnet episodes where pot made people hallucinate and drown their babies.

“inside29”  Well, yes, but only until my birthday next month!

TeddyPig: Kids could “accidentally” be exposed to porno at the local drugstore or bus station magazine rack.

I am sure we have all lived with those scars for years now. How did we survive?

Some of us grow up and write erotica.

Is it that damn hard to read the cover of a book?

Are we speaking different languages here?  Labeling IS the stuff on the cover of a book no matter what it looks like.

In my book, that makes your opinion a crock of shit.

I don’t have a hell of a lot of respect for yours either. See? Still equal.

read the first few sentences, and say, “Crap, this isn’t what I signed on for!” and then put the book down?

By then I’ve already spent money on something I don’t want which I think it would be better to avoid.

You’ve obviously got a severe lack of debating skills if you can’t rationally state your point and calmly accept that other people will disagree with you.  You must be either very young or emotionally stunted (See? I can be a bitch, too.  Isn’t the world a better place now that we’ve insulted each other?)

Surely you don’t live in the land of rainbows and giggles. Take some responsibility for your choices.

What an irrelevant comment.  I would prefer not to shell out money on books I won’t like.  I happen to think as much information on the cover as possible, no matter HOW it is provided, is the best way for that to happen.  I am not easily offended.  I stated on the OUTSET that M/M doesn’t offend me, I just don’t like it.  I’m not a right wing religious zealot trying to ruin your day and I’ve never once advocated governmental regulation which it seems many people think I am doing.

I just want as much info on the cover as possible to guarantee that my hard earned dollar doesn’t end up unread and wasted.

How that got under YOUR shorts and bit you on the ass I’ll never know.

Alyssa,

First, sorry I forgot your name as one of the authors.

Second, I’ll work on getting the cover scanned for you and send it to you when I have it.

Right, back to the discussion.

Kerry

No, Scotsie, mine was at IUPUI.

Ladypeton, I guess I didn’t make this clear: the professor wasn’t teaching that labels=censorship: I wrote my final paper on the position that labels=a mild form of censorhip, preferable to not carrying the book but still better avoided unless those are your only two options.  That’s also the official position of the American Library Association, though I’m not entirely sure they’ve spelled out the part where it could be the lesser of two evils in some cases.

Say you put a warning label on a book that says “Offensive language,” and somebody sees that for whom offensive language = f*ck, but the offensive language the book was tagged for is frequent use of the word bitch.  That person can now dismiss that book without knowing that the actual contents won’t offend her.  On the other hand, if the only word that gets the book tagged with an offensive language warning is f*ck, then people who find the word bitch offensive are going to get up in arms about how that label needs to go on more books.

If it were possible to state factually all the actions in the book that somebody might find offensive without that being the entire book, it would be great (except that presumably all the endings would be spoiled, because somebody might find them offensive and there would be labels like WARNING: BAD GUY GETS AWAY WITH IT).  The censorship issue is in deciding that certain content needs a warning at a certain level.  There’s plenty to suggest what the language in a book might be like or the likely level of sexual content from the cover copy, knowing the author, flipping through it a bit, where it is in the bookstore, et cetera without having some anonymous arbitrator write “Adult Language” on the cover, announcing to the world that by their standards, the book has enough of it to merit the warning, and thereby imposing those standards as The Standard for such decisions.

Warning labels inherently stigmatize what they’re warning against.  I agree absolutely that the cover should give you a good sense of what you’re getting in a particular book, but to me a big “Warning: Buttsecks” sticker couldn’t help but have a subtext of “And there’s something wrong with that.”

If you’re surprised by what you find in a book, take it up with the marketing department at a publisher’s.  It’s their job to make sure that you’re not unhappily surprised, and in my experience they do a pretty good job of accomplishing just that in a manner that doesn’t reinforce hoary old prejudices.

Please understand - I’m not saying that not wanting to read something means you’re prejudiced against it.  What you find entertaining for your leisure reading is entirely your own preference.

Ah, I love those warning labels. I really do. I wish I could use them in some way. I think they’d make fantastic stickers. Or pins. I’d put them all over my bag.

Anywho, cussing doesn’t bother me. If anything it specifically attracts my attention if A) used sparingly and when invoking strong emotions or B) the character simply swears a lot. It amuses me.

I’ve never found swearing to be offensive. I’m more likely to get riled up over the term ‘bad words’ and get all up in a tiff in my adamant claim that such a classification is stupid.

““Fuck fuck fuckety fuck. What’s the big fucking deal?”

They’re just collections of letters (in print) or sound (in speech). There’s nothing magical about them. Any offense felt is purely on the part of the reader/listener. “

What?

Truly - how can you argue that? Aren’t some words unacceptable?

Well, Marianne, it depends, doesn’t it.  Let’s leave aside fuck and go with cunt.  I’ll say fuck in my college classroom, but when I want to say cunt to make a point, I’ll say “the c word,” so for me, it’s a much more potentially offensive word.  The thing is, *I* like it.  I like the sound of it, I like what it originally meant (not a bad word), and I like it used in sex talk.  If someone calls me a cunt in a manner intended to offend, I get offended, but if my partner talks about my cunt, I think he’s being very romantic.  So I certainly wouldn’t mind it used in romances—as long as it’s the “right” use.

But some people (most?) find it more offensive than fuck, mainly because it’s used so much less.  Neither word are “appropriate” to use in formal situations, but neither of them are truly “unacceptable” in that they are words whose sound should never be heard.

Even the “N word,” is a word whose history needs to be known so that it can’t/won’t be repeated.  And I’ve used it in my college classroom (at an African-American college) as a way to make a point.

What do you mean by unacceptable?  Ever? In some situations?  When talking to some people? When spoken by particular people?  Who defines the unacceptability?  For me, these censorship issues always come back to that:  who defines the censorship?  I sure don’t want anyone less liberal than I am defining my entertainment options.  Do you?

People too stupid to think you can kill the undead without yelling “fuck” a few times should really have their library cards taken away.

And they should have their Barnes and Noble cards taken away.

And their Borders cards.

And their car keys.

And sharp objects.

And then they need to go put their heads down on their desks.  I’ll see if I can find some juice and crackers.

Fuckin’ idiots…

submit word: local25 (union of smartarse beeyotches)

Yes, I love it when I read a book with a cop hero and no one ever cusses. Have these authors ever MET a real police officer?!?

And I don’t feel okay with calling Ms. Hunter names, but aside from that, she sent the letter to the RWR. She clearly wants this to be a public discussion. That involves disagreement, sometimes STRONG disagreement.

As for labels… If I picked up a book that said, “Warning! Extreme language!”... Well, extreme to me includes racial slurs, etc. so my first impression would be “Ugh. I don’t want to read this book.” You see? “Fuck” isn’t extreme to me, so that wouldn’t even occur to me. I’d think it was something much, much worse. Is that fair to the author? Every persons extreme or explicit or deliciously shocking is different.

Is shit extreme? What about damn? What about spurting and weeping? Ew, hell yeah, it is. How about a sticker for that then?

SMART BITCH
  ADVISORY:
MOTHERFUCKER!

Bwah!  Smart Bitches, You Must Make teh Stickers!.  Rly.  You could donate the proceeds to a free speech charity, or keep ‘em for your own bad selves.  Point is, they’d sell like motherfuckin’ hotcakes.  I know I’d buy.

I write in two genres, historical and paranormals. Some books end up full of fucks (literally and in speech), others don’t.
It depends on the characters. I’ve found the historicals come in less, just because that’s the nature of the story, and people just didn’t use those words in the same way then. In the 18th century the worst thing you could call a woman wasn’t “cunt,” it was “bitch.” It just doesn’t have the same impact for the modern reader! And “fuck” was used as a vulgar (ie crude) word for the sex act, not as a general swear word.
Read something like the poetry of Rochester for the ways they used the words then (and for a good laugh - they’re fantastic).
So the contemps relate the way we use words today. And the characters saying them. The heroine of “Jewel of the Dragon” had a sheltered upbringing, but the hero hadn’t. But she didn’t go around with her head in a paper bag, so although she didn’t curse much, it didn’t shock her silly to hear it, or turn her off in the bedroom.
It’s all in the character.
And when one of my Samhain books gets the warning “Contains explicit sex,” it’s like a badge of approval! Well, it works for me, anyway.
I made a list of 100 favourite books for a site a few years back (I think it was AAR when they did a poll) and I was surprised to see it ranged from no sex (Georgette Heyer) to all-out buttsex (Robin Schone). The quality of the book, the intensity of the romance all comes before how many f or c words the author can cram in to one page. I couldn’t care less if the story’s well told.

Psyche,

Warning labels inherently stigmatize what they’re warning against.

Does it really, though?  Movies in the US start out with “Warning: this movie contains adult language, M/M, monkey feces, ghod knows because by now I’ve tuned out,” all the time and does anyone in mainstream America even LISTEN to that warning anymore?

I know I don’t.  I couldn’t even come up with an example beyond “adult language” because that’s usually the first one and I haven’t managed to tune it out yet.

And why does the word “warning” even need to be there?  A simple small “Adult language” in the corner of the back cover could suffice.  That way a person can’t say they weren’t warned and the word objectionable isn’t even used.

I can’t help but feel that ladypeyton has absolutely no idea of the enormity of this issue.  Her “what’s a little warning label going to hurt” argument astounds me.  She is right about one thing.  Labeling does not equal censorship, but it is the first step.  It is a necessary step.  You also can’t crack an egg into a bowl and say it equals an omlet, but you can’t make an omlet without cracking a few eggs (How’s that for a new twist on an old cliché?)  The purpose of the warning labels (to inform rather than single out) is completely irrelevant.  If they exist, they WILL be used for evil.

“Oh, goodness!” she said, her eyes rolling back in delight. “Oh, goodness me. That feels so goshdarn good!”

And she wasn’t killing demons either… But if said demons heard her, they might die laughing.

Omigod - I haven’t laughed so hard in a long time - especially at that last one with the page numbers!

Okay, let me think.

I was reading it backwards - it’s the ‘Any offense felt is purely on the part of the reader/listener’ part I found problematic.

I read that as an argument that if I call you a cunt and you take offense - you’re in the wrong. You’re imagining the insult, because the writer is arguing that I (the speaker/writer) am only producing value-neutral strings of letters which are inherently inoffensive.

So looking at it that way round - I wouldn’t try and argue that every usage of any word is unacceptable, but I would argue some words are unacceptable in some contexts.
So, for me, if I looked up ‘cunt’ in the dictionary, I’d expect to find it there - acceptable usage. If my teenager called me ‘cunt’ when I asked her to tidy her room that would be (for me) an unacceptable usage.

Who defines the acceptability? Really hard to say. But would you argue for the reverse? If in your classroom a student makes a sectarian, sexist or racist remark to another student, wouldn’t you want to be able to say ‘That’s unacceptable’?

ladypeyton ~ “Movies in the US start out with “Warning: this movie contains adult language, M/M, monkey feces, ghod knows because by now I’ve tuned out,” all the time and does anyone in mainstream America even LISTEN to that warning anymore?

I know I don’t”

Okay, I’m coming out of lurkdom for this.

Please explain to me, if you don’t LISTEN to the warnings of those who are labeling movies, why you would listen to the warnings of those who are labeling books?  What is the difference?

Morality and censorship (in this case, censorship of language used) are like art…subjective.  You can’t in good conscience make a subjective statement and hold it out as a standard.  It doesn’t work, nor should it.

Does anyone remember the childhood chant, “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me”?  Fuck is a word.  It can’t hurt you.  It can’t hurt your children.  You can deplore the use for your own wants/needs and those of your children, but don’t assume to do the same for me and mine.  That means, don’t label my book.  If I can’t make an educated choice in my reading material based on reviews and recommendations by like-minded readers, then I’m going to end up with the possibility of not liking a book, either the actual story line, or the words used in it.  But that’s MY problem.  Not yours, not my neighbor’s and not my mother’s.  MINE.

Verification word ~ subject21…Does that mean you have to be 21 or older to discuss this???

I’m wondering if Ladypeyton isn’t trolling the wank a bit? “Just a little Peyton Place….”

Oh, but what would we do with the word “bloody” that just leaves people from the US scratching their heads while it seemed to be considered as the height of rude language in England (and other members of the commonwealth?) for generations without being connected to anything except a lower class origin as a swear word.

And I have to admit I ended up being bemused by the frequency of the use of the word “cunt” in Denise Mina’s Glasglow mysteries.  Apparently it’s tossed off like Americans say damn.  I figured that out and read on without offense.

I just thought of another one I MUST have: Warning: this book uses the euphemism, “manroot.”

....on the fuck thread, not the censorship sux thread…

Best t.v. episode EVAH, season 1, episode 4 of HBO’s The Wire.  Two detectives investigate the scene of a “cold case” murder and the ENTIRE dialog consists of fuck and motherfuck and motherfucker and fuckedy fuck fuck fuck.  Scene lasts for, I dunno, at least 5 minutes.  Leaves you wondering if the dialog was actually scripted or ad-libbed.  Unfuckingbelievable.

(can’t believe this is what lured me out of lurkdom…)

Marianne McA said: I was reading it backwards - it’s the ‘Any offense felt is purely on the part of the reader/listener’ part I found problematic.

I read that as an argument that if I call you a cunt and you take offense - you’re in the wrong. You’re imagining the insult, because the writer is arguing that I (the speaker/writer) am only producing value-neutral strings of letters which are inherently inoffensive.

—>It’s not the word that’s the offense. It’s that someone chose to call someone a word that they know is potentially inflammatory. Word alone doesn’t do it; context is required.

Take, for example, the word “nigger.” Call a person that, and it is almost certainly offensive. Oh, wait, some people don’t take offense if they’re being called it by a good friend. And if we outlaw the word entirely, then we completely destroy the brilliance that is Blazing Saddles, possibly the most anti-racist film ever made.

Conversely, a person can offer deadly insult without ever using a curse word or even a bad name. Again, it’s the context and the intent that’s the insult, not a particular word.

An individual’s gut reaction to a specific word is all in that individual’s head. I am unoffended by, for example, the word “cunt,” because I have looked beyond the word to the intent behind it, and concluded that anyone who can’t come up with a more imaginative epithet isn’t insulting me at all. Someone’s gotta be smarter than that to get my respect, and I can hardly feel diminished by the poor opinion of people I don’t respect, yah?

Can I add my two cents?
It seems to me that this discussion is quite restricted in the geographical aspect. For example, I had never found and advisory thing until one day I bought an american singer cd with it. I was surprised. I do not want to lie, but I think that I’ve never seen an Spanish singer cd with that kind of warning.
What’s more, if you go to the cinema, I do not remember much warning either. I mean, it’s warned when needed, a simple +18 or whatever in a corner, but for the major part, it’s left to the consumer opinion.
May this need for labeling be an american thing?
I may say that I’ve always found amusing the contrasts within the american society.
IMO, you should have the information but it’s not the same to find a film in the tv and see the +18 in the corner (they won’t wait for you and make you a resume, will they?), that the back blurb on a book. There is always information for you. But sometimes you find sth that you do not like: I can swear that I skipped at least 10 to 20 pages of fishes description while reading Jules Verne Twenty-Thousand Leagues Under the Sea!

I would like to second the motion to include the word “manroot”.

Only because I feel personally it is not used enough and should be a part of everyday speech.

BTW, I want an advisory : laughable euphemisms! pff love hole is the recent one

Back to ladypeyton again:

Is it that damn hard to read the cover of a book?

Are we speaking different languages here?  Labeling IS the stuff on the cover of a book no matter what it looks like.

—>So why do you object to using it?

In my book, that makes your opinion a crock of shit.

I don’t have a hell of a lot of respect for yours either. See? Still equal.

—>Sorry, sweetie, but not all opinions are created equal. Opinions based on “what is practical and does the least harm” trump opinions based on “I want the world to revolve around me.”

read the first few sentences, and say, “Crap, this isn’t what I signed on for!” and then put the book down?