Bitch, Please. No, really. Please.

Book CoverSo here’s something I never expected from Bitch Magazine. Really. I’m sort of horrified and appalled and wondering if someone over there fell and hit their heads.

Bitch posted their 100 YA books for the Feminist Reader list, and of course, like any thing that is (a) a list (b) adorned with the word “feminist” and (c) on the internet, there was lots of discussion. And disagreement. And expressions of disappointment. Some didn’t like that certain books were left off, and some didn’t like the books that were selected, particularly those that were sexually violent or challenging to the reader’s emotional equilibrium. I can understand that – books are powerful things, but all the more reason to collect them in to one giant list to share with libraries and those looking for thoughtful reading material to share with young adult readers.

Then came this comment from post author Ashley McAllister:

A couple of us at the office read and re-read Sisters Red, Tender Morsels and Living Dead Girl this weekend. We’ve decided to remove these books from the list— Sisters Red because of the victim-blaming scene that was discussed earlier in this post, Tender Morsels because of the way that the book validates (by failing to critique or discuss) characters who use rape as an act of vengeance, and Living Dead Girl because of its triggering nature. We still feel that these books have merit and would not hesitate to recommend them in certain instances, but we don’t feel comfortable keeping them on this particular list.

We’ve replaced these books with Howl’s Moving Castle by Diana Wynne Jones, The Blue Sword by Robin McKinley and Tomorrow, When the War Began by John Marsden. Thanks to several commenters who pointed out the need to include these excellent books on our list. I’m excited to add a few more rad girls to our list and I can’t say how happy I am to know that there are WAY more than 100 young adult books out there that tackle sexism, racism, homophobia, etc… while presenting us with amazing young adult characters. Young adult lit has come a long way. We’re really excited to keep talking about feminist-friendly YA books on the blog.

So, sorry about those books that were scary or only able to be interpreted in one single way or somewhat triggering (and for fuck’s sake, “triggering?” Fucking adolescence itself is one big trigger of misery**!), and congrats to these also-ran authors who made the list because we caved to what a few people said.

**ETA: Let me clarify here, since some are questioning my position. I know what a trigger is – a seemingly unrelated experience that can immediately cause partial or full re-experience of a traumatic event for an individual. My ire here is at the idea that Bitch Magazine can identify all the triggers of all the potentially traumatic events of a person’s life and then protect that person by removing those books that contain those elements from their list. Removing a book because it is triggering is at the least disrespectful of anyone who has survived anything because it presumes to know better that the victim herself what is and isn’t going to affect her. Every other moment of rereading an adolescent experience could be a trigger. How do you stop them all? You can’t. And it is insulting and presumptuous to try to do so.

Oh, no. They didn’t. Seriously, I am so surprised at Bitch Magazine, I don’t quite know what to do with myself except shake my head with my jaw dropped open. It’s like the perfect storm of fandom wank, only more horrifying because FOR FUCK’S SAKE it’s Bitch Magazine. I thought they printed the original recipe for all clue-filled pastries and made other publications scared of their awesomesauce.

As you can imagine, that amendment to the list did not go over well, and oh, the unholy wtfery that has been unleashed in the comments. Leading the charge of WTF? is author Scott Westerfeld, who wrote,

Let’s get this straight: You put Tender Morsels on your list without having read it, then saw a handful of outraged comments appear. So you reread Tender Morsels, swiftly and with those comments uppermost in your mind, then decided they HAD to be right.

Did you talk to anyone in the non-outraged camp first? To those feminists who originally recommended it? Did you engage in a rigorous discussion at all? Or did you just cave?

Two requests:

1) Please remove my book Uglies from the list. It’s an embarrassment to be on it.

2) Perhaps change your name to something more appropriate, like EasilyIntimidatedMedia. After all, the theme of Tender Morsels is that one must eventually leave a magical, fabricated safe haven for (sometimes brutal) reality. The theme of this blog would appear to be the exact opposite.

Bitch Media responded by saying that they “hope that even those of you who disagree with the decision to remove the books from the list understand that, as a feminist, reader-supported organization, if members of our audience contact us and tell us something that we’re recommending might be triggering for rape victims, we’re going to take that seriously. That being said, please feel free to voice your dissent here; we take that seriously also.”

So if there’s enough dissent, you’ll put the books back? Way to completely eradicate the value of the list in the first place, cave to those who shriek loudest, and bend with the remover to remove. Westerfeld is not the only author to express outrage and revulsion. Author Maureen Johnson also commented:

I was absolutely delighted to see my book, The Bermudez Triangle, on this list when it was published. I’m a fan of the magazine. But I have been incredibly disheartened to see your process for removing books. It mirrors EXACTLY the process by which book banners remove books from schools and libraries—namely, one person makes a comment, no one actually checks, book gets yanked.

You’ve removed Tender Morsels by Margo Lanagan. I think that’s a disgrace. You were right the first time, when you put it on.

Ladies, feminist media should be held to the highest standard. This kind of waffling and caving on comments is no good. Lots of people would have LOVED to use this list for educational purposes, but it’s such a mess now that no one wants near it.

I request that either you get a grip or remove me from this list. If Margo is removed, I’d like to be removed with her. And please remember that young feminists are looking up to you. When they see you so easily intimidated, so easily swayed, so eager to make concessions . . . it sets exactly the wrong example.

(As a side note, if you want to read a fantastic bit of “mansplaining” and condescending crapfiesta, there’s a comment like that in there, too. Please have flasks ready to drink with every other line.)

I honestly can’t process the whole thread, except with exclamations of “What?” “Wait, really?” “BITCH? NOooooooOOOooooOOo!” I mean, of all the publications online with Big Girl Pants and stone cold badassery on a daily basis, BITCH would pull this type of “Oh, noes, it hurt someone’s feelings, that scary scary literature?” I never thought I’d see the day when Bitch Media would be following the playbook of the Humble, Texas, Teen Lit Fest, which disinvited author Ellen Hopkins because of one librarian who didn’t like Hopkins’ books or their subject matter.

I’m shaking my head like you would not believe. As you might imagine, I’m a fan of Bitch Magazine and have been a subscriber and supporter of their not-for-profit mission and ad-free publication. I don’t always agree with them, but I usually have their back on most anything. But, oh, holy wafflepants.

Bitch, please. Don’t do shit like this.

ETA: You know how books that make A List, A Really Important List, get stickers and insignia and stuff? I have some for Bitch Media. Here, you can has them.

 

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Categorized:

Ranty McRant

Comments are Closed

  1. Midknyt says:

    @Tansy Rayner Roberts – I have not read Ash but I am adding it to my TBR pile.  Thanks.  🙂

    I guess a cover of two sisters running hand in hand makes perfect sense for the book too.  For some odd reason two girls holding hands + a post that is obviously outraged over something other people did wrong = lesbian coming of age story that people are complaining about, at least in my head.  Oh well.

  2. Having never read Bitch Magazine or most of the books mentioned, I can’t comment on the content.

    I can, however, point out that any professional group that puts up a recommended list of books before even READING them is not professional.

    Content aside, it’s silly and immature to put up a list and then pull books down or edit the list based on feedback from their readers.

    I see it as pure laziness on their part.

  3. Chelsea says:

    You know, as a teen I never cared to read most of the standard young adult fiction available for the very reason that most of it seems overly sanitized and unreal to me. Whether this was an accurate reflection of what was being published at the time, or a result of banning/censorship on the part of my local librarians I don’t know.What I can say is that I liked adult books because they handled grittier, more realistic situations that I saw in my own life. I think sometimes people rush to shelter children from the wrong things. For me, books with dark themes were thought provoking, emotionaly stimulating, and at times educational.

    Now, I did/do have some issues with triggers because of medical related traumas as a child. For me it’s usually smells, especially rubbing alcohol. The fact is, there is no way to avoid the things that might cause an event. I can’t expect the world to sheild me and I wouldn’t want them to. My “issues” are my own, and I deal with them as they come along both in life and in what I read.

  4. Maddie Grove says:

    If Tender Morsels and Sisters Red actually do contain author-endorsed rape-as-revenge and victim-blaming, respectively, I wouldn’t fault Bitch for taking them off the list. From what I’ve read in the comments, it looks like the rape-as-revenge happened as the result of a character accidentally losing control of her magical powers and wasn’t treated as a good thing in the story (although it doesn’t seem as though it were treated precisely as a bad thing, either, so I can see why somebody might object). As for the victim-blaming, that sounds like it was the point of view of a character who learned the error of her ways later. Of course, I haven’t actually read either book, so I could be wrong. Still, if a character had been all, “raping somebody as revenge is the best and also she was asking for it,” and the author was holding her up as some kind of paragon, then, yes, that would be a good reason to remove that book from the list.

    Being potentially triggering, though, is another matter. If you want to protect people from being triggered, indicate on the list that, hey, this book has rape in it (or whatever the triggering thing is). You don’t remove it from the list. Discussing those matters doesn’t make a book bad or objectionable; it just makes it something that some people might find too painful to read, and there’s also nothing wrong with that.

    (Personally, I think that it would be nice if books could…well, not warn for that sort of thing, but I hate it when a book or movie looks like it’s going to be cheerful but turns out to be all about rape and drug addiction and mental disorders and child abuse. Who wants to see that kind of thing when you want to watch something happy?)

    Anyway, their treatment of potentially triggering material is inconsistent. At least two other books on that list deal with rape or sexual assault, and plenty of others contain eating disorders, relationship abuse, self-mutilation, and other common triggers. It seems like they only care if somebody makes a big fuss over it.

  5. Tracy Rowan says:

    Thank you.  Seriously, thank you for speaking out on behalf of common sense.  I see a lot of this “There there, you poor little flower, we’ll protect you.” stuff these days and I’ve always felt that it was WAY too paternalistic and condescending.  I don’t buy into the idea that we’re too sensitive, that our trauma can knock us to the floor when we read or see something that reminds us of it.

    I survived something that has given me pain for years now.  And yes, I see or read things that remind me of what I’ve lost and sometimes I’ll cry, sometimes I’ll despair, sometimes the misery is almost overwhelming.  But I get over it and I go on.  I’m not going to hide from my grief because that’s saying that I can’t handle it.  I can.  And I sure as hell don’t need someone else patting me on the head and saying they’ll protect me from it.

    If something is a worthwhile read, then they should say so.  If they have any reservations, by all means mention them, too.  And then let the reader decide for her/himself. 

    And if they haven’t bothered to read their own recs, then they need to STFU about it all.

  6. Diva says:

    I believe that individuals or groups who make lists either endorsing or condemning books should have read those books prior to the publication of said list. Otherwise it lacks credence.

    Readers and rape survivors must be afforded the respect of being permitted to select which reading material is right for them.  I can read about rape. Not my favorite, but also not my trigger. What takes me back tot hat afternoon is iff I hear December by Collective Soul. Then, I’m a mess.

    Don’t try to dictate or legislate what will bother me. And please don’t say “these things happen but YA shouldn’t have to read about it” because many times it is that demographic TO WHOM such things are happening! Discuss and honor that experience..don’t act ashamed of it.
    Also, I have the greatest respect for the many thoughtful comments made above.

  7. the fact that some YA authors go one there acting all offended for whatever personal reason is ridiculous

    Yeah, how dare they stick up for their fellow author’s reputation and protest against misleading labelling and uninformed opinion? I mean, the nerve of some people. Who do they think they are, real human beings or something?

    Oh look, censorship at it’s “finest”.

    [Hon, it’s ‘its’. Look it up] And no, just no. Censorship would be if the publisher cut out offensive passages in the book, or the protesters managed to get the author’s contract cancelled or in some way made it impossible for anyone to read the book in question, or parts thereof. You might want to look up ‘censorship’ while you’re checking the correct form of possessives.

    As usual AgTigress bring the calm wisdom, and I have nothing more I could say on the particular issues concerning the retroactive editing of this list. The fuss is giving it more importance than it deserves, I suspect.

  8. elizabeth says:

    What is wrong with changing your mind about something when a point you didn’t consider is made to you? I don’t agree with sticking by your every word forever. If you decide you were wrong, you should absolutely say so and fix it to the best of your ability as soon as possible.

    This isnt censorship or book banning. This is a list of books Bitch thinks are feminist. If they decide one isn’t, why should they leave it up and perpetuate what they see as a mistake?

  9. ellid says:

    I personally think the list itself is a bit of a mess; some of the books on it aren’t actually YA (The Blue Sword is a heroic fantasy novel that was originally marketed to adults; I have the first mass market paperback edition, from an adult publisher with an adult cover and in the small typeface usually used on adult books), other aren’t really feminist (A Wrinkle in Time).  Even worse, to my mind, the books aren’t sorted by category or age range.  I wasn’t all that impressed.

    I’m also considerably less than impressed by Bitch refusing to remove angry authors from the list.  If someone doesn’t want to be on it, for pity’s sake, why keep them there?

  10. SarahJn says:

    Yes, people are triggered by all sorts of things, and not all abuse survivors will be triggered by explicit references to abuse, but I think it’s fair to say a hell of a lot more abuse victims WILL be triggered by explicit descriptions of abuse than will be triggered by iceberg lettuce, FFS.  I’m very sorry for all those who react badly to triggers that other people find weird or silly, I myself have a few of those, and that’s a horrible situation to be in.  But the fact that we can’t warn everyone about all triggering experiences is not a reason to never try and warn ANYONE about any of them.

    To be clear, Bitch is not attempting to define triggers, the post author is responding to specific complaints from readers.  She didn’t pull the idea that Living Dead Girl might be triggering out of thin air, someone who was triggered by it told her so, and she took that complaint seriously.

    I actually think that removing the books from the list entirely was a poor call; once they had been selected (presumably with some kind of reasoning behind their selection other than “this book has a female protagonist”) the selectors should have stood by their choices or at least attempted to explain them.  But I am sick to death of seeing people raging about how triggers are unimportant and removing a couple of books from a list of recommendations is akin to censorship and *book burning*.  I think Bitch has been ADMIRABLE in their respect for readers who are concerned about triggers, and I applaud them for taking these concerns seriously, even if I am not totally pleased with the way they handled it.  I think trigger warnings/topics for discussion (for all the books) would have been a better move (but then I think the list would have been more useful as a feminist reader if it had had notes to begin with).

  11. say what says:

    Jesus Christ, people.

    It’s a fucking list in which a bunch of people say what they like.

    So people have different expectations of what they want out of feminist literature. This is news?

    Feminism isn’t one big happy tent where everyone has to agree with each other “or else.”

    Try to understand what your sisters are doing before you react with scorn, okay?

  12. ccmay31 says:

    I’ve finaly relized what this list reminds me of! “My Sister’s Keeper”. I read all thru the night, then want with my mom to the supermarket, stayed in the car cause I was almost finished the book then proceded to cry my eyes out.

    Then the movie came out and I found out that in the movie, the person who dies is not the same one who died in the book WTF!?
    I still refuse to see it cause it dose not respect
    1. the book.
    2. the journey of the people in the story.
    3. me.

    BITCH taking the books off the list is disrespectful in the same ways and also to whoever put them on the list in the first place.

    and as to the whole trigger and death warnings in fanfics, I see it not so much censoring or whatever, but as genres like perody, kink, slash and hurt/comfort some will read it and some will skip it.

    I don’t like it when someone desides to kill a char thats not there own, so I just avoid it if I can, but if an Author wants to it’s there world *shrugs

  13. This is horrible. says:

    I am sorry, but you lost your credibility when you bashed the trigger related issues. Seriously, what is wrong with you?

    People WITH THESE TRIGGERS spoke up. These triggers are very common. We women have a right to speak up on this, sorry.

    I am apalled that you actually use this platform to mock and attack us.

    No, it’s not “like book burning” to remove these books from the list. Nor is it censoring. It’s a list of what the people of the magazine thought were feminist enough. They have a right to reconsider.

    They actually accomodated rape victims for a change. Barely anyone does. And you attack them for it and even quote people saying that it’s totally bitch magazine bowing to TEH MAN? LOL! As if rape victims had any power in society and were listened to anywhere.

    Ladies and Gentlemen: Your posting is rape culture in action. This is why rape culture is everywhere, and why barely anyone gives a damn about rape victims: The moment someone does, people like you attack them viciously for it.

    Not okay. At all. But I get that you don’t think we count as people…

  14. orangehands says:

    SarahJn & Megs: I totally

    <3 your comment.

    Romantic Alice: From what I read in the comments the Tomorrow series was added because a. strong female characters; b. non stereotypical gender roles; c. females as heroes and in a subgenre (contemporary action-adventure, I suppose) usually overrun with male characters (esp when it was first written); and d. decisions were made by the group, and everyone had an equal voice. (Not sure how much I agree with the series being feminist, but those seemed to be their reasons. There may have been more.)

    Midknyt: Not sure if you were asking for suggestions, but

    here’s a list.

  15. tiel says:

    Having been taught by Margo and heard her read her own work I would describe it as powerful and moving.

    We all have triggers. Reading about paternal death scenes is one of mine, rape is another,suicidality due to bullying is a third.

    Would I ever, ever demand that a book be removed from a list because it distressed me due to a personal event in my life?

    Never. Not ever.

    We all react in different ways to writing – sometimes something that distresses you can also be cathartic. Sometimes it can inform you in a way you previously hadn’t considered, Sometimes you can be offended. But you have no right to demand that a book be removed because it personally upsets you.

    If it incites racial hatred, if it’s a manual on how to broil puppies, then yes, you would have grounds. But ‘It reminded me of a bad time’? ‘It upset me’?

    Books aren’t supposed to be rainbows and puppies, and as a teen I responded far more to the books that spoke to what I was experiencing than some sanitised kidworld fantasy. Even if they made me cry, or hyperventilate, or walk away for a while.

    I’m sorry, but being a rape survivor doesn’t give you some moral right to decide what kids can and can’t read, and censoring books from a list is not ‘rape victims having a voice’, it’s attempted thought control.

  16. Michelle says:

    There is a big difference in saying this book triggers me so I shouldn’t read it, and saying this book triggers me so no one should ever read it, and it should never be recommended.  Good for the authors for standing up for their collegues. 

    How very foolish they look for recommending books that they have not read.

  17. Bashing people who are triggered is evil.

    Censoring books because they contain triggers is also evil.

    The sensible solution is to PUT BLOODY WARNING TAGS on the books that people have complained about. Sheesh! Is that so hard?

    Does this book contain potentially-triggering rape references? Then FLAG IT so that people who know they personally are at risk of such things can choose not to read it.

    It is absolutely not possible to remove all triggers from literature because people are set off by different things. But if people TELL you they’ve been upset by individual things, you can ADD A WARNING for it.

    Sadly, I’m made quite angry and frustrated by a lot of the comments in this thread attacking ‘feminists’ as a group entity when WHOA HEY have you actually spoken to more than one feminist in your life? Hello, we don’t have a party line and we don’t agree on shit!

  18. Andee says:

    What I am trying to say is that good books, even if they contain ideas and beliefs we reject, are better for young readers than bad books which tick all the right, currently politically correct boxes.  Remember anyway that political correctness is mutable.  I would like to think that a 13-year-old might read one of the books that has been criticised and argued about, and say afterwards, ‘I enjoyed it, but I thought that X (some event within it) was not fair, not right’.  That will encourage growth far more than striking the book off an ‘approved’ list.  People need to learn how to argue and debate, and for that, it is necessary to be familiar with all sides of an argument.

    LOVE this paragraph.  Thank you, AgTigress…Encourage our kids to read well-crafted books as opposed to pandering tripe and let the chips fall where they may.

  19. Carly says:

    I don’t think I fully understand the issue of “triggers.” I have never been raped or sexually assaulted. But I do have Post Traumatic Stress and related anxiety. Things that “trigger” a panic attack include feeling trapped, so a visit to the dentist is a big one for me (this was never an issue prior to PTSD) and I have to get laughing gas just to make it through a cleaning. I would never expect anyone to even understand my triggers, let alone go out of their way to warn or protect me for them.

    I mean no personal disrespect to sexual assault victims, but it seems like the issue of rape triggers just has better marketing (for lack of better word) than other types of emotionally (and physically) tough flashbacks.

  20. Chelsea says:

    I don’t think I fully understand the issue of “triggers.” I have never been raped or sexually assaulted. But I do have Post Traumatic Stress and related anxiety. Things that “trigger” a panic attack include feeling trapped, so a visit to the dentist is a big one for me (this was never an issue prior to PTSD) and I have to get laughing gas just to make it through a cleaning. I would never expect anyone to even understand my triggers, let alone go out of their way to warn or protect me for them.

    That’s exactly how I feel about it. I’ve had episodes wherein I basically relive my absolute worst moments. There isn’t always a way to see it coming. It’s just something I have to live with, unfortunately. I can see where warning labels on books might be helpful, but I don’t think they’d eliminate the problem entirely.

  21. Niveau says:

    Having read Sisters Red, I don’t think it should have been included in the first place, and I’m not sad to see it go. I haven’t read the other books in question, so I don’t know how I’d feel about them, but the fact that they obviously didn’t do their homework before making the list is what I really have a problem with. If they’d actually read all the books on the list and gone over why they should/shouldn’t be included, I doubt that they would have felt they needed to make any changes. Why would you put books on that list without reading and analyzing them first? It’s just lazy.

  22. Jen says:

    I just think it would have been nifty to leave the original list and then have post after post talking about the issues in the books that were problematic.

    It would have provided awesome discussion and a lot of great content for bitchmedia online.

    I am a feminist. I am a strong person with a strong personality that doesn’t take shit but manages to be a kind human being. That being said, I am not 100% myself in my blog or anywhere online because I don’t feel like the Internet is where I want to get flack for my beliefs or opinions.

    While I don’t agree with the way bitch handled this issue, I probably would have done the same thing in their position. I am not proud of that, but I am much more likely to back off of an issue or something I’ve written online because no one can see my intent, only my text. Plus it’s REALLY difficult to explain yourself properly online because there’s always going to be some hole in your words someone is going to poke a finger into and wiggle and talk about how you didn’t cover THAT or THIS or whatever.

    It happened. It’s over. It’s good people are talking about it and having a problem with it and it’s good there are those that defend the actions. It takes all of us talking to keep us strong as feminists. On the bright side, I’m about 100% sure the list-compilers will take this experience and learn from it.

    No one takes this much textual lashing and fucks it up the same way twice.

  23. orangehands says:

    (Talking about trigger warnings so may be triggering)

    Carly: I’m not sure if this is answering your question (your asking about trigger warnings, not the triggers themselves?), so please let me know. My understanding is they first started popping up on fanfiction to warn people when they start to read about Harry & Ron falling in love there’s scene X which may be triggering. TWs are usually put on for items or posts about rape, suicide, violent imagery, torture, body image (Fat Acceptance blogs, for example, realize a lot of their readers had eating disorders), etc…things that have a high chance of triggering someone. (Like someone said above, someone may be triggered by a piece of lettuce but its much more likely people will be triggered, by, say, an inhumane description of someone being tortured.) Blogs use TWs for the stuff likely to trigger their readers. Sexual assault and rapes are usually accompanied by TWs because if you consider the conservative figures of 1 in 6 women and 1 in 10 men, you are highly likely to have someone who survived a sexual assault (or attempted one), maybe multiple times, reading your blog. They are also more likely to be put in place because rape is treated as comedy within most of the US media, and so people want to show respect to survivors that their horrible experience is not just a bad joke, to be touched on for a (not actually funny) laugh. TWs are basically considered a courtesy, because they absolutely do not require extra effort but the fact they are there can help someone not be triggered.

    One of the things I think should be pointed out is they didn’t get rid of all books that talk about tough things, or even all books about rape. (Speak, for example, is the year long aftermath of a rape victim.) They got rid of books they think trigger people because of victim-blaming, that they think don’t fit feminist standards. I’m with the others who said they screwed up in not looking at these books very closely, or adding notes to the books about why they were picked (and how they can be triggering), and for waiting until the comments to say they were going to be changing/updating this list, but I don’t have a problem with them deciding a book didn’t fit their criteria, which was brought to their attention in the comments. I didn’t read it so much as “this book is triggering, take it off the list” as “this book triggered me, here’s why” and they realized it didn’t fit their criteria. (Haven’t read the book yet so no clue if its feminist or not.)

    I definitely appreciate tough books. And I hate book banning. And as someone who has triggers, I’m careful about what I consume. (For instance, I don’t read romance books before, say, 1990 because its more likely to have a nonconsensual – or borderline case – sex scene, and so I research it before I check it out.) But this seems more like they realized a book didn’t fit (which was brought to their attention to be debated because someone was triggered by it) and took it off what appears to be a really random list. It seemed like their hearts were in the right place and they just fucked up the execution, before and after.

  24. Anne Ardeur says:

    It’s not censorship.  And it’s not “ohmigoshdelicatelittleflowersneedingtobeprotectedfromeverything”.  That’s offensive to everyone who has some kind of trigger, or who believes in treating other people with respect.  As a feminist webspace, Bitch magazine tries to be a safe space for its readers.  If anyone wants to know more about trigger warnings and why they’re a good idea, check out the awesome Melissa McEwan at Shakesville here.

    I think Bitch’s own comment policy pretty much sums up their stance and the reasons for it:

    Dropping your defensiveness, not being dismissive of others, and treating other people the way you want to be treated sometimes seems like a lot to ask for, we know, but our mission in creating a forum for discussion is to keep that discussion useful, thoughtful, and non-alienating to as much of our audience as possible. Will we please everyone? Unlikely. But we can try.

    Yes, Bitch messed up in the first place by not reading all of the books on their list.  But I definitely respect that they listened to the concerns of their readers, went and read the books, and then revised the list according to their own reading experience and in accordance with their own rules.

    I’m disappointed by this post from SBTB, and a lot of the reactions to it. 🙁

  25. Ali says:

    There are triggers everywhere.  It’s up to me to decide if I am capable of reading the material in question.  Some days I may be able to, other days I will take a pass to preserve my sanity.  I self harm and am in recovery for an eating disorder, there can be some sneaky sly triggers out there.  Hell, some of the books currently listed aren’t something that I could handle reading.

    I give myself credit for being savvy enough to read the descriptions and comments of books I am interested in reading.  For example,  I took a look at the list and am going to try ‘Uglies’ even though there is self harm in it but will be giving ‘Wintergirls’ a pass for now due to the anorexia component.  I don’t know about ‘Sisters Red’ but ‘Tender Morsels’ and ‘Living Dead Girl’ are very upfront about what kind of content is included.

    If these story components are something that an individual feels would be a trigger then they should stop, think, and choose not to read.  Not complain that others should never recommend the book or that the book should be removed from a list.  Having survived a horrible experience doesn’t give you the right to decide what other people are able to cope with.  Frankly, I find it offensive and patronizing to have somebody judge what I am capable of.  It detracts from my hard won sense of self knowledge and my ability to trust myself to make good decisions.

    In other words, let’s just assume that those of us with triggers have a modicum of intelligence and insight.  We’re not broken and we don’t need caretakers.

  26. rochrist says:

    Yes, Bitch messed up in the first place by not reading all of the books on their list.  But I definitely respect that they listened to the concerns of their readers, went and read the books, and then revised the list according to their own reading experience and in accordance with their own rules.

    First off, they listened to the concerns of a tiny minority of their readers and ignored the concerns of a fair greater number of their readers, and secondly, I’m extremely dubious that they were able to read nearly a thousand pages of books and then conduct an unbiased discussion of same and arrive at a sound conclusion in /two days/.

  27. I am walking in late here, I know.  I started reading when this post first came up, and haven’t been back here for a few days.  I thought I’ve talked to every kind of shrink, psychologist, psychiatrist, therapist, counselor, pastor, that was possible, but. . .  I am not getting on board with this trigger thing.  I had a couple of still born babies many years back when no one acknowledged that stuff.  (rH factor)I was depressed for years with no treatement.  Husband never said boo about it.  Cousin, a priest, said , ‘better luck next time.’  Everytime I read a story about a similar incident I cry my eyes out.  Sometimes I still cannot speak about it.  Been on psychoactive meds for years now and I date it back to those losses (and genetics).  In my attempts at writing fiction, I HAD to write about it.  My own writing makes me cry.  I found the receipts from the first baby’s funeral the other day when going through old albums.  Sat crying by myself for at least twenty minutes.  Brings back the sense of loss, but also of people not caring, not noticing, not acknowledging my pain and loss.  I cannot imagine heeding a warning that a book might trigger my feelings cuz it mentions a dead baby.  I cannot imagine avoiding that.  I feel the catharsis is absolutely necessary.  Self-validation, I guess.  But I’m pretty ‘old school’; read:  OLD.  The censorship thing—another whole issue.  Don’t have a stand on that, ‘cept it’s up to the individual what they want to read. Maybe.  Spam filter? next birthday…

  28. Seriously? says:

    Ladies and Gentlemen: Your posting is rape culture in action. This is why rape culture is everywhere, and why barely anyone gives a damn about rape victims: The moment someone does, people like you attack them viciously for it.

    Not okay. At all. But I get that you don’t think we count as people…

    But you know what’s REALLY empowering to victims?  Acting like they are a monolithic, Borg-like group who all have the same opinion on a particular subject – which is what you’re doing.

    There are multiple people on this thread who claim to be rape victims who say they specifically have a problem with the way Bitch handled this post, or a problem with the notion of “trigger warnings” in general.  If we’re going to talk about “not counting [victims] as people,” denying their opinions because they don’t fit in your convenient little narrative about how all rape victims everywhere in the world feel is pretty damn “de-humanizing” to me.

  29. Anne Ardeur says:

    If we’re going to talk about “not counting [victims] as people,” denying their opinions because they don’t fit in your convenient little narrative about how all rape victims everywhere in the world feel is pretty damn “de-humanizing” to me.

    Okay.  That comment you quoted is a little inflammatory (I think we’re all feeling a little reactionary on the subject, whatever your opinion), but hyperbole aside, trigger warnings aren’t about conflating Rape Victims as one big monolithic group and saying that Everyone Feels This Way The End.

    Trigger warnings?  In the end, they’re just words.  Word that some people, like some of those who’ve commented here, will just dismiss.  But words can do harm, and the old adage about sticks and stones isn’t always accurate.

    If there’s a trigger warning on something and it’s not your particular trigger, or it is but you don’t like trigger warnings, then what’s the worst that happens?  You get a little annoyed or offended at the presence of the trigger warning, and then you read on or move on as you prefer.

    But if there’s no trigger warning, and it IS your particular trigger and you read or watch something that triggers you?  That can do harm.  Real, lasting, emotional (plus some) harm.

    I’d rather go a little overboard on the warnings than unwittingly cause someone harm.  ESPECIALLY on a subject that is such a wide trigger, or that can cause a lot of issues even for people who aren’t ‘triggered’ by that particular thing.

  30. polk says:

    Upon hearing what had happened to the men and realizing what Urrda had inadvertently done the family ships her off to be taught magic. There is no mention of remorse, guilt, or accountability, hell there isn’t even a implication that Urrda is devoting herself to a strict discipline and the implied moral code that comes with it. She just has an awesome life of luxury now with new clothes and cool spells she can waste on presents. Your right it’s not really rape as revenge so much as rape as random event to grind the plot on to it’s next bullet point.  It’s a bad novel and shouldn’t be on any list except maybe a most muddled themes lost or most unresolved bestiality substory.

  31. Kirsten says:

    I will admit that I was ignorant of this publication until you mentioned it here. Their sole criteria seem to have been that these are their favorite books with “kick-ass heroines and inspiring feminist themes”.  I read “Living Dead Girl”, and I’m not sure I’d say it qualifies under those criteria. It is a powerful book, but does it qualify under all three of those criteria? I found it to be horrifying, not inspiring. It’s not a book I’ll revisit nostalgically.  I agree that the authors of the list needed to do more research before putting their list out there… but if it doesn’t have inspiring feminist themes and kick-ass heroines, the book doesn’t belong there. As a librarian I am frustrated to see The True Confessions of Charlotte Doyle next to Living Dead Girl as they are intended for totally different audiences- it’s absurd to lump them into the same category under the label YA.  I’d quibble with the way they defined their criteria more than anything else.

    If “thought-provoking” were one of the criteria, I guess I’d have more of a problem with this. But they didn’t even mention quality of writing or creativity as reasons for their choices. If YALSA had published a list like this I’d have a problem with it. But that’s an organization that claims authority to choose the best in YA literature in a number of categories and expends huge amounts of time and energy to do so. 

    FWIW, if a list is going to contain books that have obviously controversial material in them, I think there needs to be a way for librarians and readers to be made aware of that. Because at MonsterLibrarian we review horror fiction(a very broad category) we try to always do this. When we publish our top picks list (hopefully soon) we always say that not every book is for every person (this should be obvious, but award winners are often recommended or read because they won an award and not because of content), and link them to our review of the book to allow them to decide what’s appropriate.

    At any rate, I don’t think this falls in the same category as the Humble, Texas fiasco. Although I’m starting to really feel for Scott Westerfeld.

  32. AgTigress says:

    This thread has galloped off in many different directions, and is probably running out of steam now (always happens when a thread is no longer on the first page of the blog). 
    But just one interesting new thought occurs to me:  some of these classificatory difficulties may be due to the very concept of ‘Young Adult’ fiction.  The whole point of adolescence is that it is a period of continual change and development;  some 14-year-olds are very mature, while others are still children.  In the days when reading graduated directly and sharply from children’s books to those written for adults, the reader him/herself normally made the decision.  Many of us made that transition even before puberty.  But now, there is a whole, enormous genre for adolescents, and many adults read these books as well — and in general, full-grown adults are far more willing to read fairy-tales than they were in the past.  Added to this, very distressing themes involving injustics, pain, suffering and violence are now commonplace in fiction, and are frequently described with a vividness that would often have been subtly veiled 50 years ago.
    I think all of this may have made it much more difficult to list ‘appropriate’ fiction for almost any group of readers.
    I may be quite mistaken, of course.

  33. AgTigress says:

    Sorry for typo:  I wasn’t logged in, so couldn’t correct it in the post above.  Injustice, not injustics!
    🙂

  34. colleenlaughs says:

    I agree with another poster that the Blue Sword should have been on there from the first. I looove that book. It got me started on fantasy books and was the first adventure I’d read with a believable female lead. I love those kinds of books. That being said…  I haven’t read the contested books from the Bitch list but I definitely believe that that list should be a home to more difficult, thought provoking reads. TBS is a very straightforward heroine/girl-power type fantasy novel.  After reading it I was obsessed with McKinley and read every other book of hers I could get my hands on… and was very surprised. Several of her other books have delved into far more difficult aspects of women’s struggles. For example, Deerskin is a powerful and redemptive book dealing with incest, rape and self healing. When I read it as a naive young woman, Deerskin was both horrifying and eyeopening to me. It made me realize that the heroic, magic tomboy novels are easier to read but that the harder, more uncomfortable stories reveal the kind of strength that real woman have.

  35. Tabatha says:

    Whatever your feelings about the list and its transformations, if Bitch has been meaningful to you, you shouldn’t give up on it now. People need to calm down. They can make a mistake without people going completely ape.

  36. bonnie says:

    For the life of me I don’t understand why they jumped from complaint to removal.  A simple apology and taking accountability by adding some potential trigger warnings would have been absolutely appropriate and sufficient. The end.

  37. cleo says:

    I’ve been thinking about this trigger issue since this was first posted.  I haven’t read Living Dead Girl, or the other books in question, but I have a lot of experience with triggers and being triggered (I was sexually abused and I have ptsd).  I appreciate this conversation, which seems to be winding down, but I think one thing is missing – and that is a recognition that getting triggered is part of the healing process, and I think it’s a necessary part.

    Getting triggered isn’t damaging, at least not in my experience. The “damage” has already been done – the trigger unleashes old repressed emotions, so I can let them go.  I don’t enjoy getting triggered, it’s really unpleasant (to put it mildly) to go back and emotionally relive being abused, but it’s good to get those repressed memories and emotions out into the light of day.

    I appreciate that we have books that seriously deal with unpleasant and formerly taboo subjects like rape and incest, and I really, really appreciate trigger warnings.  I like being able to decide ahead of time if I feel up to dealing with something that may trigger me (and I do wish more books, and especially movies, came with them – I’m looking at you Magnolia, Monsoon Wedding, and Cider House Rules – all movies that triggered me, two of them on dates).  Not recommending a book *just* because it is triggering seems like a move in the wrong direction.

  38. @cleo.  Thanks for speaking up on this issue.  I posted early stating that reading material containing so called triggers can be cathartic and necessary for some people.  It seems in most cases most people do not want to be triggered.  I am glad I am not alone in feeling these issues should not be swept under the carpet.  I have dealt with specific issues at different times in my life, widely separated in years, and found it is healthier, at least to me, to face it.  Anyway, how can you go through your life avoiding references to things that brought you pain?  I think its dealing with the pain, not the issue at some point.  Well, I have always found the differences of opinion on this website invigorating, although it seems it is usually met with hostility.

  39. Alexander says:

    I was pretty uncomfortable with this post pre-edit (guess what? High school was triggering for me! And some people don’t survive to read this fine upstanding blog publication) but the discussion is fruitful and helpful. There are some books that are good books that I would not recommend without a trigger warning. Peony In Love absolutely hammered on a few of my major ED buttons. A Tree Grows In Brooklyn was the first book to ever trigger me, and I was 11 years old. They’re both good books. They both deserve to be read, because all books deserve to be read. I wouldn’t blanket-not-recommend them; I warn. All books have the potential to trigger, as some people have said, because not all triggers relate directly to the trauma that caused them. But books with obvious potential to trigger—and it’s not necessarily a lurking horror no one could have predicted; some rape survivors find books like Donkeyskin cathartic, some find them triggering as all balls—do deserve a warning. I will weigh my chances and be well-warned, and that means that I have control of what I read.

  40. Alexander says:

    @Cleo: Some triggers can be damaging, but all triggers are unpleasant. Sometimes one’s just just sick and overwhelmed and agitated and in fight-or-fight mode for the day, and sometimes (especially with triggers that accompany self-harm, or an eating disorder) one’s life is in danger. All over again. It really varies from person to person, and from situation to situation, but it’s safe to say they’re always something one wants to avoid.

    I give people the right to advise me not to read such and such book, or such and such movie or song, and I appreciate the heads-up, but someone preventing me from ever hearing about such and such or wrestling it from my hands is robbing me of my agency. I would stop short of calling it censorship (Bitch isn’t telling libraries not to shelve those books, or stores not to sell them, or publishing houses not to print them) but it’s not cool.

    (Also, that should be McKinley’s Deerskin I name up there, damn you, ingrained fairy tale geekery!)

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