Physical Erotic Perfection

A reader and graduate student named Kate emailed me this question:

“Intrigued by the concept
of well-written, professionally published erotica, I downloaded some of your
recommendations. After sampling several I found a pattern that bothered me
and yanked me out of the story.

All of the male characters – and sometimes the
females too – are described physically, right off the bat, as being tall,
handsome, and having perfect sinewy muscular bodies that I’ve certainly never
seen anywhere besides Michaelango’s David. I understand that romance and
erotica are designed to be fantasies, and that the reader is assumed to be a
heterosexual female who is inserting herself in place of the heroine and
fantasizing about this male.

I don’t know where they got their information as to
what real women want, because they certainly didn’t talk to me. My current
boyfriend is overweight, and past partners, while running the gamut from skinny to round, have never possessed rock-hard muscles or perfectly chiseled features. *I’ve* never had sex with a guy who looks like that – why would I want to?

Perhaps if I found one who was a great match for my personality, I might, and
I’m sure I’d find his body attractive, but I’m insulted that the industry
assumes that this is all I want to read about. I might be able to look past it
and enjoy the plot, but I’m likely to skip past the sex, as I don’t get much out
of picturing a Playgirl model (or two) screwing a blonde, either in terms of
arousal or placing the scene in the progression of the plot. It’s just so far
removed from my actual sex life and what I’ve learned to enjoy.

I’ve been dealing with body image issues in women as part of my graduate research, and I’ve often had to help my imperfectly-bodied partners feel secure and wanted – I hate being a consumer of the kind of cultural material that makes so many people feel inadequate.

There’s been discussion on SBTB about romance novels with plus-sized heroines,
so the matter of “imperfect” bodies has been raised before, but I don’t think
it’s been raised in the context of either the hero’s body or erotic romance. Is
there anything out there (either romance or erotica) for those of us who
actively dislike overt physical description of the “ideal body”?

I realize that I’m unlikely to find an erotica writer explaining that her hero weighs 300
pounds, but there are alternatives to descriptions of lean muscle – I recall the
hero of Spymaster’s Lady being described as “a big man,” and there’s also the
option of limiting the description and letting the reader fill in the blanks.”

I think Kate asks a very good question – the erotic-romance men are often very, very perfect, in ways that often don’t seem real.

I think erotic romance is very much about reader fantasy, and can be more liberally dolloped with idealized figures, both on the covers and in the books, particularly when it comes (ha) to the men.  I think the male standards of beauty are just as damaging as the female standards, and are slowly growing in pervasiveness,

Why do you think the men in erotic romance are so often muscularly and sculpturally perfect? Do you prefer erotic heroes to be written that way? Can you recommend quality erotic romance titles that feature more realistic men, at least, not chisled angular men of perfection?

 

Comments are Closed

  1. Anony Miss says:

    Not to veer off-topic, but Cara / Meg above said..

    Also, I always give my muscular heroes physical jobs (and no, not former SEALs) or hobbies that explain their unreasonable physiques. Totally irks me when authors don’t do that.

    My friends and I were discussing this at a step workout / sculpting class at the gym last week. Like did romance heroines lay on the floor with rubber tubing tied around their knees doing crunches? Did they do manic step workouts while sweating like pigs? I think not!

    Where did we go wrong??

    Oh yeah. Moving off the farm. Right.

    Okay, end off-topic, carry on with the chiseled six-pack cheekbones.

  2. Kinsey says:

    Elise – I did the proofreading for Changing Thumbelina and I LOVED the hero – Emily never goes for the same old, same old, does she?

    I recall a BDSM romance featuring a Dom an older Dom with a pot belly. Can’t recall the title or author but I think I liked it.

    I like slightly battered heroes as opposed to drop dead gorgeous, but I’ll admit I’m a bulging biceps/washboard abs connoisseur. If, God forbid, anything happened to the Hub, I don’t think I’d ever fall in love and get remarried – but I would make it a point to have sex with someone just because his body turned me on. I didn’t do nearly enough of that kind of thing when I had the chance.

    And Lyssa – One of the reasons Miles’ stature never bothered the ladies is that he can do push-ups with his tongue.

  3. oldbitey says:

    I’m insulted that the industry assumes that this is all I want to read about.

    Hello, Publishers? I buy books and my fantasy is not your fantasy or even the fantasy of the reader who lives down the road/on the other side of the globe. Have you ever conferred with Sir Mixalot or talked to women who prefer their guys a little on the Ursine or skinny side? Whose marketing department came up with these standardised fantasy personality traits and fantasy body-type for heroes and heroines anyhow? The continual rehash of the “standard” fantasy forms is so BOOR-RING and, like Graduate Student Kate said, a big ol’ turn off.

  4. April says:

    John said:

    …you’d think that the magic and eroticism would rely in good writing and characterization. Since when was a book (even one based on sex) supposed to skate through on how a character looks?

    I totally agree! Nothing turns me off quicker than bad writing and no character development. If the writing is bad, the dialogue is clunky, and/or the personality of the characters is utterly lacking… Well, I for one am going to abandon ship long before I stop to care about what a hottie character X was.

    I wouldn’t mind more average-looking guys in books (including M/M) and I do love flawed characters, but the fact remains that I don’t think physical description does much for me in of itself in terms of characters or couples I like. There’s usually a lot more going on in what I’m reading, erotic or not.

  5. Fiamma says:

    I agree with the woman who said Roarke drives her to distraction. Me too and I would kill to be Eve Dallas for one hour with him.
    That being said, what I dislike about most of the erotica I have read is that everyone is attractive AND so willing to do anything sexually because after all, you can fall in love in a weekend and then get married. I am not looking for a HEA in erotica, but surprisingly, I have come across a lot of them. Also some of the sex the couples have is almost unbelievable in the sense that I am not sure I would ever attempt it.
    Physical descriptions are okay, even buff boys, BUT please do not give me every stinking detail down to their shoe size, leave me something to fantasize about.

  6. sweetsiouxsie says:

    I prefer the total fantasy, perfectly gorgeous, sexy male. Also, he must be a fantastic lover and sensitive too.
    I think it is a shame that waxing has become such a fad. I am particularly fond of the line of hair that starts around the navel and proceeds across the stomach and down to the naughty bits. I guess that’s why I read historical romance. The authors are always describing the guy’s hair. I like brown eyes too.

  7. Maria says:

    What an amazing debate.

    I think that physical description doesn’t need to be overt. I’d rather the writer stick to a minimal description and let me fill in the blanks with what I find attractive. Am I likely to picture someone I find completely imperfect? No. But the person I picture is going to be a lot more normal than Mr. Buff-Pants (Mr. Mantitty?) on the cover.

    I’m much more impressed when we can see the hero (or the heroine) from the perspective of the other character. It’s especially impressive when an author can pull off how as you get to know a person their physical attractiveness increases. Kinda of a not perfect for everyone, but perfect for each other.

    Give me good story, good character development, interesting scenarios, and I’m a happy camper. My imagination is good enough to fill in the physical details on my own thanks.

  8. Elise Logan says:

    Elise – I did the proofreading for Changing Thumbelina and I LOVED the hero – Emily never goes for the same old, same old, does she?

    Nope, she doesn’t. She always likes everyone to be imperfect in some way – which is why I brought her up for this discussion.

    Also, there’s a difference between generalized perfection and physical perfection. I don’t mind physical perfection so long as it’s balanced by some kind of psychological or mental or emotional challenge. I also make a distinction between body-perfect and face-perfect. I don’t love face-perfect heroes. I like them to have something that makes them more than pretty – nose too long, jaw too square, cheekbones a little broad. I don’t like (and don’t want to write) perfect people. They’re boring. Interesting characters have imperfections – it’s what makes them interesting. Those imperfections can be emotional or physical or both. Like I said above, though, I don’t limit them. I let the author convince me that whatever the physical and mental situation is – well, that’s what’s right for THAT character.

  9. Jim Lynch says:

    For the record, BDSM is a wonderful three-part acronym: bondage and discipline, dominance and submission, and sado-masochism.  Anyway…

    Most of the male physical descriptions I’ve read in erotica are similar to those in romance novels: There’s an occasional scar or eyepatch, but by and large the men are completely buff (not to mention studmuffins).

    And I think that’s fine.  Part of fantasy—be it erotica, romance novel, rom-com movie or comic book—is that it’s fantastic to the point of being unrealistic.  For many (though clearly not all here), that’s where the escapism comes in.  Much like the romance novel hero, the erotica male isn’t someone who needs to lose a few pounds, or has a receding hairline, or should try and stand up a little straighter.  They’re the stuff of fantasy.

    (Incidentally, there has been a big change reflecting this in recent years in the world of porn.  As one writer put it, they’re no longer casting any troll as long as he has a big dick.  Lots of studios make a point of using good-looking men, and there are some male faces that are almost as recognizable as female ones (like my friend’s fave, Evan Stone).)

  10. Joanna S. says:

    For me it’s about confidence.  In fantasy and in real life, I love me a confident man!  Not an egotistical asshole, but a man who is truly comfortable in his own skin (whatever that skin might look like) and is confident enough in his sexuality and in his sense of self that he desires his equal, rather than some fluffy bit of strumpet who is a place-holder, not a life partner.  And, when this is well written – when the hero and the heroine are truly each other’s equal, then I’m turned on.  I don’t care what they look like.

    Although, in reading erotica I do have to agree with the person above who complained about the male Doms ordering female Subs to wax/shave their hey-nanner-nanners completely nude.  I understand that obedience and trust are necessary parts of this culture, but dude, I’ll wax my pubic hair completely nude when you do the same to your balls.  Otherwise, deal with it. End of discussion.

  11. Shadowedge says:

    I just finished reading “Getting Rid of Bradley”, and liked the fact that the main male character is described as a normal, possibly not terribly attractive guy. IInstead, it is his force of personality that attracts the heronie, and she eventually finds him attractive.
    Jennifer Crusie seems to do this from time to time, I can’t think of any other off the top of my head.

    But I totally hear you on the getting thrown off by EVERYONE being ridiculously attractive. The Anita Blake Series has gotten nearly comical with it…

  12. Sara says:

    [iCallahana’s Lady and ]Lady Slings The Blues by Spider Robinson.  It’s not “erotica” per se, but science fiction based in a brothel of unusual quality.  I’m confident Kate will certainly find what she seeks there.

  13. Elise & Kinsey, thanks for the mentions. 🙂 Changing Thumbelina is one of my favorite-things-I’ve-written and it killed me a little to revise out Frog’s love handles. I like imperfect. Imperfect makes a person and a character unique and imperfect helps distinguish from the template.

    As a reader, descriptions are pretty much useless to me. Give me a few general words (tall, broad, dark, whatever) and I’ll fill in the rest. I’m going to create my own mental picture anyway so I don’t really want the author’s mental picture to confuse mine. Look, going in, a penis is a penis and as long as it’s of sufficient size to get the job done, it’s a well-made penis. As long as the abs, glutes, biceps, etc., are strong enough to sustain a good session, carry the groceries up the stairs, or push my car out of the snow, the man is IMO a well-made man.

    Part of my ambivalence on the hero’s-physical-traits front might be linked to my leaning toward being stimulated by mental engagement instead of visual engagement. I’d rather have a love scene stuffed full of wicked-sexy dialogue and not a single description or action, than a love scene with glowing description and action and no communication. An overweight or underweight or whatever man who can talk a good talk is going to win for me when he’s up against a 6’2, 9”, 200 lb mute.

    As a writer…well, as a writer, my visual thing comes into play again. Way back in the ‘80s when I was a girl reading Harlequin Presents’, I read MY BROTHER’S KEEPER by Emma Goldrick. The heroine, Micky, has dreams about a faceless shadow of a man. Me, as a creator of heroes? Yeah, my heroes are faceless shadows. They might have sandy brown hair or they might have blue eyes or something, but most of the time all I get is “dark” or “light” or “stocky with love handles”. And that’s all I need. In many cases it’s all I right because I’ll be the first to admit I write a story for myself.

    The imperfection thing for me extends outside the physical and into the professional, too. I wholeheartedly believe a long distance truck driver can have powerful and deep feelings and strong desires. A man who moves pianos for a living might not have wealth, but he can still be an intriguing person. I love a heroic Marine, believe me, but I didn’t marry a heroic Marine. I married a cook. And he is one awesome beta-male, physically-imperfect, less-than-10-thick-inches, more-than-ideal-weight man.

  14. Ahem, “all I write”.

  15. Mary G says:

    I read contemps & erotica. When I read I see the book like a movie in my head. Therefore it doesn’t bother me too much that everyone is usually perfect. BUT, I seem to love the stories (& they resonate more) when someone has issues that they overcome like an illness or like Sarah Mayberry’s Worth The Risk that I’m reading now (she has acid attack scars).  What I notice more is that every guy is HUGE, built like a tripod LOL. They never mention his penis size if he’s average.

    I don’t want to start a war here. This is just me. I have a weight problem and I don’t want to see in my head someone like me doing it LOL. Yes I do get tired of the skinny Barbie with big boobs but the alternative is what??  We already have Hollywood & print media doing plenty of visual perfection damage.
    It’s fiction people. Don’t rain on my parade.

  16. Mary G says:

    Oh I love what Maria said:

    I’m much more impressed when we can see the hero (or the heroine) from the perspective of the other character. It’s especially impressive when an author can pull off how as you get to know a person their physical attractiveness increases. Kinda of a not perfect for everyone, but perfect for each other.

  17. Lyssa says:

    After reading the others’ commentary, I thought back to some of the bdsm based erotica I have read.  And looking at this question under that scope, I found different answers. Laura Antoniou’s Chris Parker, for instance was a male BDSM hero who’s shorter, and beginning to have balding issues. His psychological makeup could be off putting to some readers, but as a whole the character has a dark sensuality that is intreguing. 

    Then I reexamined some other ‘characters’ .  SEP has nerds who are not perfect looking, but she always has them be so facinated with the female orgasm that it is a fantasy right there. (Examples Yank from Hot Shot, Dexter in Lady Be Good, and Teddy from Call me Irresistable). However there was a shift between these two characters in SEP’s expression of their ‘studied vs studly” approach in the bedroom. With Yank and Dexter the whole thing is ‘until this man took the time, the woman had never had an orgasm.  With Teddy this studied approach is shown as a limitation to passion. As Suz Brockmann’s Tracy commented to Decker, “You are too much in your HEAD.” 

    Why do I think this difference needs to be brought up? Because if the book is erotica not a romance there does not need to be an HEA, but there does seem to need to be a passion for the act. This passion I think is why Miles and his admiration for Quinn, Taura, and others is so sexy. And I also believe that is why Alpha heroes (perfect body or not) are the basis for a good portion of the main Male Protagonist in what I read.  What is sexier than a 6 pack, and chisled jawline? A man who is powerful (physically/financially), yet passionately desirous of the woman before him.  JAK commented on this attraction in her book “Dangerous Men and Adventurous Women: Romance Writers on the Appeal of the Romance.”

    In the past, I believe this led to some badly written, rape-tastic story lines. The problem there was that the overwhelming passion was used as an excuse for rape. This I think is based on the mistaken idea that rape is about passion, rather than violent reduction of the victim to object. But that aside I think female readers do respond to imperfect heroes if they can be shown to have that passion.

    After all there are women out there who don’t find young men of 20 with no shoulders sexy. Nor do they find men who work harder at having a sculpted body than a brain sexy. (The old song “You’re so Vain” always plays in my head when I see that type myself). There are those who find a man who has passion, and a little around the waist very sexy. (Have any of you watched Clark Gable movies? The man did not have a 6 pack! Or for that matter, Harrison Ford, or Errol Flynn.)

    My question is, when did this admiration for the perfection of the male body (In the 20th century) start? I can pin-point it for myself. Terminator, the first movie. When a very nude, beautifully formed Arnold crouched on camera the first time.  I had never understood what the whole bodybuilding craze was about till that moment. Now that body is expected on screen…and that is sad.

    It’s as sad as women not realizing that Marilyn Monroe was critiqued as being a bit Zaftgig (spelling on that) but still considered the sexiest woman alive. I think if writers of erotica or romance present passion to their readers, then the readers will respond. Unfortunately I may be wrong. My views on this subject have changed since I was 20, and maybe I was shallow then, but I think I wanted perfection rather than reality in my writing. Now I appreciate the reality mixed in with the fantasy, because that to me makes it all that much more believable.

  18. Emily says:

    So I had a few things to say mainly
    It never really bothers me whether a hero is physically perfect. I usually don’t pay attention to much of a physical description past hair, eyes, nose, dimples and height. Sorry, I love tall men!
    I never want to know anyone’s weight!!! It unsexy and takes me out of the story.
    I am very confused over the whole abs or beer belly! Many men have neither. I don’t necessary think I would like a guy with a big belly mainly because it makes me think of some sitcom characters or other who are obnoxious and not paritcularly nice to the women character. Like Peter on Family Guy for One. I actually like Family Guy, I just don’t want Peter or Homer Simpson in my romance novels necessarily.
    I ignore that six pack though because in real life I never found it sexy! A chest that is too sculpted doesn’t sound like a comfortable place for my head!!!
    Finally my favorite books were all written before the era of the anotomically character heroes. I read lots of historicals as child where the men didn’t seem perfect. Among Austen I read somewhere only Darcy is supposed to be hot.  I also have lots of Heyer recently while many of heroes are hot; I never pictured either Justin, or Dominic Alastair as having a six pack.

  19. catie james says:

    I have to agree with Kate and would love more variety (not just physically, but emotionally/mentally) in (erotic) romances. One of the reasons I’m such a fan of Marie Force’s debut Line of Scrimmage is due to her near total omission of physical descriptions for both hero & heroine. Granted the hero is an NFL player and one could assume he and his wife fit the impossible (so-called) ideal U.S. standards of beauty. But the absence of such details allows readers a choice, especially since we’re all well aware there isn’t a standard physical type among (a number of) professional athletes and/or their spouses. Personally, I liked having the option of imagining more “humanized” individuals.

  20. Danielle says:

    The thing that really bugs me about romance heroes is that way they are all six-and-a-half feet tall. Gah! I’m only five foot, and the thought of dating someone that much taller than me is not appealling. And seriously, there aren’t that many super-tall people around, so it tends to make my suspension of disbelief slip a bit. It reminds me of the erotic romance I read which described the hero’s penis as being “the size of a coke can”, a mental image which made me actually snort with laughter. Impossible to take the story seriously after that.

    Anyway, I think that’s why the perfect-perfect heroes aren’t as appealing as they could be: just too over-exaggerated.

    As an aside—can anyone recommend some books to me with heroes who are short/average height?

  21. Aryn says:

    Cris said: And please, for the love of God stop with the painfully large penises!!!

    There seems to be a craze for the man ‘going deep’ and knocking up against the woman’s cervix. I’m here to tell you, IT HURTS. Nothing sexy about it.

    I’m totally with you other responders out there who are turned on by the characters’ reactions to each other. There is little sexier than being appreciated by the person sharing your bed, and being informed of it frequently.

    I get a little ticked at authors who continue to reiterate, ad nauseum, the hero/heroine’s blond hair or perfect weight or perfect body or whatever. It is filler for the word count and adds nothing to the story line.

    Recently, I finished a book by Elizabeth Boyle called Tempted by the Night and the heroine lusted after the oh-so-perfect Lord Somebody who would never look at her because of her less-than-perfect body and nutso family. So she makes a wish to become invisible dusk to dawn in order to get close to him. I think that theme speaks to all of us less-than-gorgeous women who figure if the guy would just give us a chance to talk, get to know us, he’d like us. (It’s a cute story, by the way) Think Jennifer Crusie’s Bet Me; similar theme of character becoming sexy through personality and familiarity.

    Me, when I was young and had the choice, I always avoided really good looking men like the plague. They seemed to figure I should be grateful to them. Men who are less handsome physically (and probably less alpha, I’ll have to ponder that later) were more interested in playing WITH me/their partners. I imagine the same is true of very attractive women.

    Now, of course, I’m old and curmudgeonly and would be grateful to danged near anyone who wanted to jump my bones, even if he was too good looking for his own good.

  22. Katherineb says:

      and he has to trick her (some sort of subterfuge with a lightless bedroom and taking the place of the guy she had actually wanted). Was a really terrible book really. Wanted to slap the girl

    I would want to slap (or better yet, to punch) the guy. If he had sex with her without her concent (she concented to sex with other man, not him, after all), then I hope you know how it called. Hint: not “normal marital sex”.

    Well, to further explain why I hated the book, the plot:
    Girls is pining for Adonis guy, hoping they will be married. Adonis rejects her or gets engaged or something. In depression, she agrees to marry Schlub who adores her and thinks she’s great, sexy, smart, partly because he has money, partly because such adoration is flattering and partly as a big “F.U.” to Adonis.
    Adonis guy is still around to be longed after however. Immediately after she gets married to Schlub, she refuses to sleep with him, feels repulsed by his pudgy nerd self in comparison to Adonis.
    What made me want to slap her, besides how she pushed her husband’s love away, in a lot of nasty ways, and spent his money lavishly –  was that she was planning on embarking on affair with another Adonis-type guy. Really, to say she was a character that I had no sympathy with – I can’t say how bad I hated her. I wondered why this nice guy married her. But then, he was manipulative to try and win her love.

    After all, the husband tricking her into sleeping with him was shabby. Though he was apparently all she expected (in an Adonis guy) in the sack.

    Oh it was a revolting book. I think the husband set it up – hired the guy to make the assignation so he could Cyrano de Bergerac her. And basically how he hoped he would wear her down, and she eventually feels guilty and sees him for a nice guy…

    Anyway, back to original topic of types in erotica?

  23. AgTigress says:

    As an aside—can anyone recommend some books to me with heroes who are short/average height?

    Virtually all of Jayne Ann Krentz’s heroes are described as being of moderate dimensions (often ‘a couple of inches under six feet’, or similar)  and ‘not handsome’.  This applies to all her work, from the late 1970s to the present, under all her names.  Quite a few of her villains, on the other hand, are tall, strikingly handsome blond men, though usually of the lean and graceful type rather than the muscular ‘Viking’ stereotype.  Most of Jayne’s heroines are short.

    Jayne’s physical descriptions seem to me to hit the happy medium:  she gives the reader enough information to build up a useful picture, but does not go in for minute detail or undue repetition.

  24. Ben P says:

    The mind is the most powerful erogenous zone. .

    If the purpose of erotica is to ring our bells, then erotica needs to address the readers’ broad scope of tastes and fantasies and expectations. These are unique to every individual reader

    This means that excessive homogeneity in erotica, in this case the predominance of the current image of physical perfection, is counter-productive and fails to address the needs of the market.

    Physical perfection isn’t necessary in order to write powerful erotica, just like it isn’t necessary for fantastic sex in real life. Nonetheless, like Tall, Dark and Handsome, physically perfect heroes still have their place in the tropes that help define the romance genre as a whole.

    Crap, that wasn’t supposed to sound like a scientific article.

    For me as a reader, the looks are largely secondary. It’s a matter of writing skill. Because well-written hot monkey sex between two ugly-ass trolls who make me want to gouge out my eyes with a teaspoon will always be more erotic than a badly written encounter between the current incarnation of metrosexual mantitty and the hapless bint he’s hammering.

    Good writing trumps good looks anyday.

  25. Aryn said:

    There seems to be a craze for the man ‘going deep’ and knocking up against the woman’s cervix. I’m here to tell you, IT HURTS. Nothing sexy about it.

    Snerk. I did that in a book once, and no, it wasn’t sexy. Much cramping and swearing ensued. That book also featured an ill-advised three-way attempt that went horribly horribly awry…as I suspect many a non-literary menage has.

    Our intimate histories with our partners are built from both the mind-blowingly perfect moments as well as the cringeworthy FAIL moments. Exploring the latter with my characters is some of the most fun I have as an erotica writer. Just like all the physically imperfect characters that commenters have mentioned fondly above, I think watching the hero and heroine as they to know one another in bed in a realistic—and hence occasionally awkward—light is endearing and relatable. And humanizing.

  26. Kelly L. says:

    Someone above mentioned not liking a character’s weight to be explicitly spelled out, and I agree. In fact, it often throws me right out of the story to see the number right there in print. Because it’s so often IMPOSSIBLE.

    I think writers have this idea that readers will think their characters are too big if they give normal weights, so you have big muscular 6’4” men weighing 180 and tall buxom heroines weighing 110 and “fat” heroines—ones described as being so big they have problems moving around—weighing about 180. Nope, those muscles and height are going to add weight, and so are those DD’s, and 180 is “overweight” for many women but not HUGE. For example, I once weighed 180 myself (I’m up a bit since then). I’m 5’6” and I was about a size 14 at the time. That’s plus size but hardly “have Jerry Springer break you out of your house” size! LOL.

    I wish authors would just never actually say the weight. There’s rarely any need to. Dress size, maybe, but only if it has some bearing on the story.

  27. Ashley says:

    As an aside—can anyone recommend some books to me with heroes who are short/average height?

    Danielle, I loved _Agent of Change_ by Sharon Lee and Steve Miller, and both protagonists were described as short.  5’2” for her and a little taller for him, I think.

    To the original question, I think (as others have said) the books that are less detailed in their physical descriptions allow for the reader to insert turn-on here (snort).  Generally, though, books with less specific descriptions extend that to sex, i.e. fade to black or suggestion rather than explicit description.  Which takes it out of the realm of erotica, and into romance, IMO.

  28. J says:

    For those looking for something a bit different…Jasmine Haynes has a story in the book Twin Peaks that features a hero who is short and bald, w/the fringe of hair going around the back.  He meets the heroine via the phone and for over a year their relationship is phone sex only.  When they meet, she’s tall and gorgeous and freaked out by his overall look and stature – but of course they find a HEA – it’s a story that’s always stood out for me.  I’m 5’ 2”, so anyone over 5’ 6” is fine w/me (and in my mind, the hero in this story was between 5’ 6” & 5’ 8”).  I don’t mind bald or even a small waist tire – but I draw the line at bad/snaggly teeth or a Cyrano nose.

  29. Tracy says:

    What a great point.  I find the only thing that pulls me out of a story is when they talk about how well endowed the man is.  We’re talking third leg here.  I don’t mind a well sculpted six pack in my hero, but let’s be realistic in the nether-department.  It’s especially jarring when I’m reading a SERIES of books, a new guy in each one, and all of them have a summer sausage between their legs.  Eyes roll at that point.

  30. Karen H says:

    I admit it:  I’m shallow.  I want my fantasy heroes to be perfectly formed and for me that means muscles and long hair.  I know it’s not reality and I’m not going to be able to experience it in real-life so I want it in my fantasy!  And, I want the cover, stepback, or back cover picture to go with it!

  31. Jody W. says:

    I think it could be interesting to have heroes or heroines whose general description is somewhat vague as to the perfectness but when they look at each other, they see deliciousness. Love, sexual attraction, what have you, can heighten someone’s appeal until you’re staring at their features and thinking they’re perfect even if many other people would not agree with you. However, I do notice that the males in erotic romance or romance novels tend to be guys that EVERYONE finds attractive, even when the females are not.

  32. henofthewoods says:

    Shadowedge,
    After I read Flirt I realized that LKH considers her husband as beautiful as most of her characters. But the photos on the website—- he may not be as pretty as she thinks. I now believe that she really sees more people as beautiful. I just wish the scars weren’t so lovingly detailed.

    Jayne Anne Krentz has a heroine who dumped her fiance because he was “too big” – which is a running joke since she doesn’t just say “too tall and hulking”. I think it is one of the late 90’s contemporaries, but which one?

    One of the reasons I like JAK/Amanda Quick was because of the covers without people (Jane Feather too). I never want Fabio (although perhaps he is a nice guy in person). The cover can be such a distraction if the hero is too pretty, too ugly, too burly, too unlike the hero in my head.

    Someone described Teddy in “Call me Irresistible” as not perfect? Isn’t the whole point that he is Mr. Perfect? He wasn’t cute when he was a tiny baby, but he was always gorgeous after that. SEP has lots of heroes who are too good looking, it is one of the things that they have to get over. The heroine is the person who actually looks deeper than their faces and bodies.

    If you want to see children be warped by their future sex rolls – go to a peewee Football game in GA. The six year old boys are in their pads and helmets and are bouncing off of each other manically while the elementary school girls are in the cheerleader outfits learning to waggle their butts. There is a moment when you think “don’t they look adorable – like mini adults” and then you start to think “little girls don’t need to be taught how to attract boys before they are 10. Little boys don’t need to wear the exoskeletons of adult men.

  33. Jrant says:

    OK, I’m actually getting kind of bummed about all of the posters using the phrase “I’m sorry I’m shallow but…” when describing their preference for sculpted heroes. If you LIKE big and buff heroes, then you LIKE big and buff heroes. Nothing to apologize for. You shouldn’t feel like you “have to” read books about less-than perfect heroes in order to keep your status as a Non-Shallow Person. I don’t think anyone’s character should be judged by their sexual preferences (excluding rape, etc.). Appreciating love handles isn’t “better” than getting turned off by love handles, it’s just different. I got no problem with super buff heroes, I would just like to find more books that reflect MY version of sexy.

    Jody W said:

    I think it could be interesting to have heroes or heroines whose general description is somewhat vague as to the perfectness but when they look at each other, they see deliciousness.

    YES! Exactly. I swoon for the “Nerd Who Loved Me” series (Victoria Dahl, I think.) I’m not EXCITED about the hero’s flaws, but the “she would never look twice at me” trope is SO much more convincing when other characters actually DON’T look twice at the hero. And when the hero and heroine finally connect, the “oh my gosh I can’t believe she likes me, I’m in heaven” moment and all the hot sexing is SO much more satisfying.

  34. AgTigress says:

    I wish authors would just never actually say the weight. There’s rarely any need to. Dress size, maybe, but only if it has some bearing on the story.

    I agree.  Especially since the US-centricity of the measuring systems cause a total loss of concentration in English-speaking readers from other countries.  An older British reader is fine with feet and inches, but thinks of weight in terms of stones,  so has to do some rapid and totally distracting maths there (‘180 pounds? That’s, umm, wait a minute, 180 divided by 14, that’s 12 stone and umm, about 12 pounds.  Nearly 13 stone.  Ah!’), while younger ones have to convert pounds to kilos and feet and inches to metres to be able to envisage the sizes.  And our dress sizes are just different enough to be really misleading…

    Easier on everyone to be a bit vaguer, for all sorts of reasons.

  35. AgTigress says:

    Jayne Anne Krentz has a heroine who dumped her fiance because he was “too big” – which is a running joke since she doesn’t just say “too tall and hulking”. I think it is one of the late 90’s contemporaries, but which one?

    (Sorry, forgot to put the above comment as a quote, and I don’t know how to do it in a subsequent edit).

    The book is Deep Waters.  Jayne has a lot of fun with that ‘too big’  double entendre.
    🙂

  36. willaful says:

    “Is there something I’m missing?  She’s looking for an occasional hero written with flab?  Love handles?  Cankles?  One with protruding collarbones or bony elbows?  Why not extend it to micro-penises and elephantis of the balls while we’re at it.  Hey, it happens in real life and some chicks might go for it.”

    Wow… I’m really, really bothered by this request being equated with some kind of bizarre fetish.  (And I’m trying to think of some way to put that that doesn’t sound like a put down of people with fetishes, but I can’t.)

  37. elph says:

    Part of the fantasy of erotica is that the partners be sexy, but there is a wide gamut of what is considered sexy. You only need to look at fetish porn to see that’s true.  Personally, I really appreciate it when the author gives me one or two exceptional features to anchor my mental image of the hero, and leaves the rest of the details just vague enough for me to tailor to my own tastes. And ITA that if the author can convince me that the protagonist thinks the hero is sexy, then I’m right there with her (or him, as the case may be).

  38. JamiSings says:

    I’ll admit I haven’t read any erotica, but that’s because it always seems to involve anal. (What I’ve heard of them.) If I could get an anal free erotica I’d read it.

    But I have always been annoyed on how “perfect” the men are in romance novels. The muscled guys just don’t turn me on at all. I like my guys tall and scrawny. I find nothing erotic about some guy who can bench press a clysedale. I enjoy romance novels for the plot and stuff, but IRL the physical type of the men describe – well, frankly, turn me off.

    And since erotica is about turning the reader on, I’d rather read about a man who’s my type. Over 6 feet tall, anywhere from 144 to 160 pounds, between the ages of 45 to 70, with a big nose.

    Yes, I like big noses and I cannot lie. Forget Christian, give me Cyrano any day! He’s way more erotic to me!

  39. I do write erotic romance and my men are a mixed bag, because I like it that way.

    I have the perfect chiseled Adonis who turns the heads of men and women alike. But we see him working for that look, two hours in the gym from 6-8 AM.

    I also have the double amputee who gets around by battered wheelchair and second-hand skateboard.

    The blind pilot and his cyborg lover, the wheelchair-bound hacker, the man who lost a hand, the eunuch, they all turn up in my tales.

    I like the gorgeous men. But I like it mixed up some too.
    And my standards of gorgeous are Errol Flynn and Johnny Depp, not so much the muscleman type, with legs like trees and a chest bigger than mine.

    Even if he’s odd looking, I’ll enjoy the book, if he’s interesting or evil.

  40. Ridley says:

    So sorry I missed this discussion! I’ve been quietly begging for more hero diversity for ages!

    The genre fantasy just isn’t at all my fantasy. Give me the 5’6” hero who covers his height insecurity with wit, the 6’4” guy who’s whipcord lean but couldn’t hurt a flea or the soft, cuddly guy with a bit of a pot belly who just loves to cook/brew beer/bake.

    The more familiar the hero, the stronger the fantasy is for me.

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