I recently discovered three advice email messages in the spam folder – which I feel really shitty about and I apologize. This letter came in mid-August, and while it’s been almost 2 months since it was sent, I wanted to answer it and discuss here because the romance/porn accusation is unfortunately perennial. That said, I don’t know if this person is still in this relationship and I don’t have an update.
Dear Smart Bitch Sarah:
I have a general question for anyone who also loves romance that may be willing to help me untangle a sticky situation in my current relationship. I’ve loved romance novels since I was in my early teens, and they have become a pretty big part of my life since then. Unfortunately, I’m in a bit of a pickle with my boyfriend over the fact that I read them.
You see, he has admitted that at one point he was addicted to pornography, but literally threw all of his stuff away when we decided to move in together. I respect this decision on so many levels, and I’m very appreciative since I’ve had relationships where porn really became an issue, BUT, my otherwise amazing and wonderful boyfriend asked me a few days ago what the difference was between porn and my romance collection.
His argument seemed sound, citing that the sex is graphic and since women have a more emotional relation to sex than men sometimes, romance novels are essentially porn for women. I’d never really thought of it that way, though yes, there certainly have been some books I’ve read that have made me tingly in all the right places. Of course telling him that I don’t read the books for the sex would be like saying that I don’t look at Playboy for the pictures, but rather the articles. I appreciate the sex, even if it isn’t necessarily my main reason for buying the book. In fact, some of my favorite romance novels may have only one or two sex scenes in the whole 400 pages,
but certainly in the genre that isn’t completely normal, and it’s not like I can promise never to read a sex scene in a novel that has a half naked man on the cover (another item he puts on his list of why romance is like porn).
It’s obvious to me that he really wants me to stop reading them and possibly even get rid of the ones that I have, and I’m completely torn as to what to do. I LOVE my romance novels and they have been a constant companion during so many good and horrible times in my life. However, I don’t know how to explain it to my boyfriend that his sacrifice of something he loved (porn) is different than his asking me to get rid of my romance novels. I also don’t know how to argue that my novels really aren’t some specialized form of porn when they do have such graphic sex scenes in them…I put a temporary patch on the problem, explaining that my romance novels were kind of like watching a television show on HBO or Showtime. They have some pretty intense love scenes, but that isn’t the only reason you watch the show…
This is such a specialized argument that we are having that I just HAD to submit it here and see what everyone had to say. Surely some other readers have had this problem? Or have some advice on how to handle it?
Signed,
Conflicted
Dear Conflicted:
Before addressing your attempts to change his perception of the genre, I want to address his behavior. By asking that you get rid of something that is clearly very important and meaningful to you, he is attempting to limit your behavior based on his own limitations, and that is not fair or respectful of you. His decision to get rid of his pornography collection may have been, and I am presuming here, because his desire was becoming an addiction to porn, and it was causing him harm. Your romance novels do not function in the same way: you said yourself, they do not cause you harm but help you through difficult emotional times.
But in what way is your reading romance novels offensive to him? In other words, how is what you read bothersome to him? Just because he is your boyfriend does not give him the right to tell you what you can and cannot read. Moreover, his pornography problem is his problem, not yours. Is your romance collection somehow attractive to him and he feels uncomfortable with his desire to read one?
Obviously, he is incorrect about the genre. Romances are not pornography. Granted, the half-naked dudes on the covers do not help this argument, but you yourself explained the best possible defining difference: not every romance has sex scenes, and romances are not just about the coming together of fiddly bits which then come together. In fact, your explanation was stellar, that some romances are like HBO or Showtime television series, where the love scenes are intense thanks to the wild freedom of cable, but those scenes are not the reason you’re tuning in. The point is, the emotional courtship is always present in a romance; the sex is not. Reading a romance is not merely about sexual gratification and arousal, and therefore romances are not porn. Anyone who picks up Georgette Heyer looking for Jenna Jameson is going to be woefully and comically disappointed.
What troubles me most about your letter is that your boyfriend, whom one would assume loves you, is asking you to give up something you love because he is not comfortable with it for his own personal reasons. He is attempting to assert control over you and your decisions, and dictate your behavior. I can’t even fully express how many OHSHIT sirens that sets off in my brain. That is the issue that needs to be addressed, and not necessarily by giving your paperbacks the heave-ho just to appease him. Whatever his reasons for getting rid of his porn collection may have been, they do not give him the right to control what you read. If he looks at romance and sees nothing but the sexuality of the cover and the cover copy that might promise titillation, he needs to read a few to form a more educated opinion. But if he looks at your romance novels as a barrier to his own comfort and demands that you stop reading them and get rid of them all so he feels better about himself, then you and he have a serious conversation ahead of you.
It sounds to me that he considers himself to have a pornography addiction, much like a person addicted to gambling. There are support groups for these problems, and while I am not an expert on sexual or gambling addiction, I do think his demand of you indicates a possible need for more direct help. If the presence of romance novels makes him uncomfortable because he thinks they are pornographic and he wants you to get rid of them, despite knowing how important they are to you personally, then the problem is not with the books, but with him, and his respect and understanding of you.
Controlling behavior is not healthy nor loving. That cornerstone of romance, that the hero love the heroine for who she is without demanding she change who she is, applies absolutely in real life, and absolutely without a doubt applies to you.
ETA: I have an update from Conflicted via email:
“Wow…I can’t believe in such a short amount of time, such a heated and exhaustive conversation has come from my email.
First, Thank you to everyone who has given an opinion, I like to think I’m open minded, and I like to get multiple points of view.
Second, I haven’t had a chance to read every entry on here, but I did want to address some specific concerns that people were having:
1. My boyfriend got rid of his collection independent of my desire or concern. In fact, it was something that he was working on removing from his life before we even got together. Did I appreciate the decision? Absolutely. Did I ask him to do anything with his porn? No. He has told me that at one point he would spend more than 12 hours with his porn a day, which I agree really does qualify as an addiction. I know that this is probably a battle that will continue throughout our relationship, but I do love him and respect him enough to work through these issues with him. As for porn itself, I don’t really have a problem with anyone having or using porn in a way that is satisfying to themselves and respectful to their partner. In my previous relationships where porn had become a problem, it wasn’t the porn itself, but the blatant and vocal comparison of my attributes to the women in the porn that became an issue. This isn’t the situation in my current relationship, and I can’t say that I know where everything would have landed if he hadn’t been getting rid of his porn already, but I do know that I have watched porn at times in my life, and don’t begrudge anyone who wants to use it. It is entirely the intensity of his addiction and my respect for him as a partner that has made it become such a pivotal topic of concern in our relationship.
2. Control. While it seems that some responders took my comment that my boyfriend is otherwise amazing as an excuse to ignore controlling behaviors, I would like to clarify. He hasn’t ever asked me to get rid of my books, merely asked me what the difference was between porn and my romances. This in turn gave me the impression that he was uncomfortable and probably would respect my getting rid of my collection. It is a matter of mutual respect, not control that urged me to submit my question here. I will be the first to admit that our relationship has ups and downs, we have had a couple really big fights since my email, but he is very respectful of my feelings, and is the first to admit when he is wrong. I have been in several controlling and unhealthy relationships, which is why I simply have to clarify that he is the first partner I’ve had that I felt actually respected my feelings and needs.
Now, that said, the issue has been moot since I sent my first email as I have not had time to read, but I have not gotten rid of my collection, and am hopeful that as our relationship has strengthened, he will feel more comfortable talking about it if he has problems, and that I will feel more assertive to explain my position. I think what really bothered me when he first brought it up was the fact that I really didn’t have a good grasp on how to respond. I struggled to find the words to explain the difference between porn and romance, but with all of these responses, surely I will be better equipped to be eloquent in my answers.
I am definitely going to continue to read the responses here, and I would be happy to answer any other questions that arise.
Respectfully and Gratefully,
Conflicted
PS: I do have a Nook, and don’t intend on buying the explicitly covered paperbacks either way, just as a sign of courtesy. Not hiding them for sure, just not flashing half naked men his way every two minutes. And, he seemed mildly satisfied with my comparison of romances to HBO. I do hope that if he were to bring it up again, I could ask him to read one of my novels and also use some of the advice I’ve received here.”
The romance v. porn debate is honestly never one that’s bothered me a lot: if someone accuses me of reading or writing porn, my response is generally “So what?” If I enjoy what I read—and people enjoy what I write—I don’t give a damn if other people think it’s porn, romance, fantasy, or anything else. (Although they’re going to be disappointed if they think it’s epic poetry.)
I’m pretty much on the DTMFA side in most cases—there are plenty of fish in the sea, being alone has its perks, and life, as previously mentioned, is short—and this is no exception. No, the guy hasn’t out-and-out demanded that she get rid of her books, but the justify-your-reading-habits discussion is never one I find charming…and again, if the problem is her having the books out where he might be triggered, then he hasn’t bothered articulating that well.
Also, as a girl who plays a lot of video games, I’m never exactly thrilled by guys who get pouty about *that*, either. I had a life before you, J. Random Guy, I’m going to go right on having one now, and sometimes that won’t involve you. Get a hobby of your own: demanding attention is only cute if you’re actually a puppy.
…and now I’m just avoiding work. 😉
Because in a healthy and satisfying relationship no one has to sacrifice anything. It’s not about taking things away from each other or giving things up for each other – it’s addition, not subtraction. I’ve been with my partner for 27 years. We make each other more, not less.
I used to call romance novels “porn for women,” but that was before I actually started reading them. Now I know better!
It’s rare for a romance novel to titillate me at all. Once in a while, one will get me a little hot, usually because it has, perhaps by accident, stumbled upon a kink that works for me. But I don’t read romance novels for the sex. I read them for the emotion, and the comfort they give me. In fact, if a sex scene doesn’t carry any plot, I’ll probably skim it. I suspect many readers do this because, let’s face it, though writers work diligently to make the sex scenes fresh and interesting, they really are pretty much the same thing over and over again. It’s the story surrounding them I’m interested in.
The fact that romance novels do not always have explicit sex scenes (I just read one with no explicit sex, and it’s one of my all-time favorites) is proof positive, IMO, that they are not porn.
Suze and Victoria Dahl’s comments made me go back and re-read the text again:
So in re-reading this, when you guys moved in together, he changed his ways and tossed his stuff. In context, I’m wondering if it was out of respect for you or if it was his decision. And it sounds like she has had relationships in the past where porn became an issue.
Either way, it does sound like he is resenting the fact that he had to change. But it also doesn’t sound like a one-way street? If I told my boyfriend that I hated porn and he needed to throw it away before we moved in together…and then I happily sat on the couch reading erotica, I could see where there would be issues.
There’s just so much context that we’re missing from a short email. I mean, IMO a guy owning some playboys or dirty movies is different than one who sits in the corner of the living room wanking all day because he literally cannot stop.
So yeah. I dunno. I think we need more context.
@Isabel, even if there aren’t that many fish in the sea (in my experience, there aren’t a lot that go for tall redheads that are over educated, not skinny and swear a fuck of a lot), staying with someone because something is better than nothing is depressing as hell. I’m much happier being single than I ever was after the initial bloom fell off the rose of the Evil Ex.
And I agree that the debate is immaterial, and rushing the assure everyone that the romance does not equal porn sounds, at times, like pearl-clutching. “Oh! Not that! I would never do THAT!”
I don’t know. Are we sure the letter writer isn’t some troll who can spell (miracle!) trying to stir it up? No offense intended if letter writer truly wants support and ammunition to help her convince the boyfriend romance isn’t porn, but the letter seems especially…aimed at creating a fervor of warning bells and outrage. This is SBTB. Would anyone seriously write in expecting the people here to agree romance is porn and she should give it up because some potentially manipulative or abusive dude wants her to?
@redheadedgirl: Precisely. (Hell, as someone who’s been in a pretty good relationship for a while, there’s still a lot I miss about my single days.) Better to be alone for the right reasons than be with someone with the wrong ones, to quote Amanda Jones.
And romance, I think, helps with that. Having a number of fictional romances available—with the advantage of being able to pick them up and put them down whenever convenient, heh—made me much less willing to rush into RL relationships, and much more okay with holding out for a guy who met my standards.
Sometimes I wonder whether some dim recognition of that is behind the eye-roll-inducing complaints about romance “ruining women’s expectations” or whatever. Like, God forbid women have an outlet for romantic feelings that doesn’t involve settling for the first guy who looks and/or treats them semi-okay.
So…yeah, basically, agreeing.
You think? 😀 😀
Unfortunately, I get an all-too-vivid visual from this…
OP says “You see, he has admitted that at one point he was addicted to pornography, but literally threw all of his stuff away when we decided to move in together.” – usually an addiction can’t be solved by just saying “I’m done” – so maybe he didn’t have an addiction after all? Otherwise, wouldn’t he be in some sort of a support group or counseling? Maybe he just liked it and thought it was too much or she wouldn’t like it (I mean, if it was an addiction, wouldn’t she know something about it before they moved in together – hard to hide an addiction like that from your significant other for long). Maybe he feels his sacrifice meant she should too. I think there is no real difference between erotica and porn – but not all romance is erotica. And if she doesn’t have an issue w/it, then she should be allowed to keep reading it – as long as it doesn’t interfere w/their lives together.
@meoskop
Ohhhhh… I disagree on so many levels, meoskop, I can’t even begin where to figure out where to start. I’ll start with this, though.
I like cats. I’m not a HUGE cat lover, but I do like them.
We’ve discovoered my husband’s allergic to cats. SERIOUSLY allergic. Should I have walk away from a wonderful relationship because he’s allergic to cats and I want a cat? Or should I make him sick?
Compromise. He’s more important to me than a cat.
My job often has me traveling. Sometimes he gets tired of it. Sometimes I take the family with me and sometimes I don’t.
I won’t sacrifice time with my family for the betterment of my career but I do try to make time to travel and he does sometimes get tired of ‘book’ related travel…and who can blame him?
But he does it because he understand it’s important to my career-just like sometimes I don’t do the big cons that could be very important to my career but they are too far away and would take me away from my family for too long.
Is it a sacrifice of sorts, not doing something that could push my career forward more? Yes. Is it a sacrifice on his part spending time doing biz things in lieu of more adventurous vacations? Yes?
We both want to be together as much as we can, and we both want me spending as much time with our family as we can-because the family, our marriage, our kids, are the most important thing.
IMO, a successful relationship DOES require compromise and sometimes sacrifice-the thing is, it has to be on both parts. If it’s only one, then it’s unequal-that’s where problems start.
meoskop wrote:
(Bold in the quote added by me)
It’s official—I absolutely love this definition of a relationship. (And reading it, it’s how I know I finally got it right with the one I’m in.)
@Isabel C:
I’m pretty sure my early love of romances kept me from being sexually active in HS, LOL. I mean, Mike from Trig class was cute and all, but could I count on him to save me from the pirates like Ruark did for Shanna? LOL Unrealistic expectations, perhaps, but at 15, nothing wrong with embracing the fantasy rather than acting on the reality. Maturity led me to look for the guys with heroic qualities rather than outright heroic actions, and reading the ins and outs of fictional relationships did help clarify the search criteria.
@readheadedgirl
Agreed. My response is not all romances are porn, but some erotic romance has porn elements, and so what? Are women not allowed to explore that purely carnal aspect of our sexual nature, even if only in our minds?
Just to add, in response to Shiloh Walker’s response to meoskop, I don’t consider reasoned compromise to be the same thing as “taking things away from each other”.
I don’t think compromise and sacrifice are interchangeable. Compromise has the element of give and take – you are both working for the greater good, taking both people’s needs into account. You might be giving something up, but you are gaining by doing so. And you are not the only one who might be giving ground. Sacrifice has a martyr aspect to it that makes me hesitant to introduce that concept into a healthy relationship. It seems very one-sided.
I think the Shiloh Walker / Meoskop disagreement is at least partly a matter of semantics. Compromise, yes; life is full of compromise, and even the most satisfactory and long-term relationships will usually require many compromises. We all make them, and in most relationships, both partners give some ground, in exactly the way that Shiloh has described.
‘Sacrifice’ is a pretty strong word, though. I certainly think that there are circumstances in which one partner might sacrifice a cherished aim for the sake of the other. The most common situation is probably that in which both partners have demanding and satisfying careers, and it is just not possible for both of them to pursue his/her own wholeheartedly because of the demands of the other, and where compromise does not solve the problem. But this kind of sacrifice can easily become pretty damaging to a relationship in the long term, because it can tilt the balance between the two people too much.
Well, as Shiloh Walker is not a ‘HUGE’ cat lover, I don’t think foregoing a cat is a sacrifice. OP states –
I have a close friend who had a dog. She loved that dog. She put that dog to sleep because her man convinced her it was the right thing to do both for the dog and their relationship. I told her not to marry him. People bitched me out. 13 years later she called and said she shouldn’t have married him and was getting out.
When someone asks you to give up something you love, something that harms no one (ie, isn’t drinking and driving), they are telling you who they are. Believe them or not, they’ve warned you.
I’m with the poster who suspects the letter’s a set-up. As to whether romance fiction is soft porn? Yes, some of it is. So what?
I’ve had a similar conversation before with a good male friend. (Of course, since we weren’t in a romantic relationship, we didn’t have as much at stake as the letter writer.)
My friend’s argument wasn’t so much against the sex in romance novels. (I’d told him that I generally skip those scenes anyways.) For him, the “porn” part of romance novels is that a lot of readers are looking for an emotional affair, rather than a physical one. He said that some guys get off on watching porn. Some women do, too. But in general, romance readers get off on the actual feeling of romance. Porn viewers and romance readers are both getting our satisfaction vicariously rather than actually engaging with another person. In that case, I had to agree. I DO like that feeling I get when I read a really good romance. I’m not falling in love with an arrogant, unrealistic regency hero, but I am falling in love—in a way—with the idealistic relationship the hero and heroine have together. I love that feeling. It’s what keeps me putting up with dozens of forgettable, horrible romance novels in search of the few that can really move me in that way.
As for the letter writer, I understand why she’s torn. My husband isn’t wild about my romance novel habits, and I think he wonders whether I’m using them to fill some kind of need he’s not fulfilling. (Sort of like how I’d feel if he spent all his time looking at porn.) This is not true at all, but if he flat out asked me to stop for this reason, I would.
How would this be addressed differently if the boyfriend was a recovering alcoholic? Would we defend the girlfriends right to keep a magnificent collection of different liquors in the home they presumably share? I don’t have an opinion on the answer, but it was the first thing that came to my mind.
Also I personally don’t believe that Romance Novel = Porn. That’s like saying anything served in a shot glass is liquor when clearly I can put lemonade in it if I want to. (Not that I would, but to each their own)
J said:
And I just wanted to add “Thank you,” because you said pretty much what I was going to say after I read all the comments. Ditto, J, ditto.
I write romance, erotica, romantic erotica, erotic romance, and all levels of heat in between. This discussion reminded me of something that made me chuckle: In our house, I own the Playboys (one or two) and probably bought all the porn movies (a handful of them). Last year my husband went on my computer for something and was initially startled to find a bunch of porn sites in my recent browser. Then he laughed because he realized I was probably doing research, because this was my job.
(I bought him a shirt that says “My wife writes romance novels. I benefit, big time.”)
I’m not very invested in the romance vs porn debate. I don’t think a large group of people can even agree on what the definition of pornography is, much less how other things compare. And every book must mean a million different things to a million different readers. Jesus, a story about popping latex balloons is going to be porn for someone. And happy reading to them.
– I LOL’ed.
But seriously, He sounds like a small group of recovering addicts who are fresh to sobriety. Everything around them is a trigger and if he thinks they are porn its hard to convince him otherwise. The best way to approach it is to explain to him that he is not being asked to read them.
Its tough because when we love someone we want to make them happy, but at the same time maintain our own identity. I wonder if there is anything else he has asked the OP to change about herself.
I’m surprised that the boyfriend isn’t enjoying any benefits from Conflicted’s reading matter which
could serve to change his mind, as it were, about romance novels.
A few years ago I started reading romance again, and yes, there are a lot more erotic elements to the stories, so many so that I have * ahem * picked up a few tips.
My husband is now a big proponent of my reading romance and erotica. He teases me that he is going to write fan letters to some of the authors, which always makes me giggle: “Dear ______, I am one on your biggest fans. While I have never read any of your work, my wife does and thank you very much!”
Hope I’m not repeating
If porn was interfering with his life, he was addicted. Just throwing it all away does not control addiction. He is just a non-using addict. 12 step or other therapy is needed if he wants control of his life.
I also had a friend with OCD. Believe it or not, the behaviors about what you get stuck on can change over a lifetime. He got stuck on porn. OCD got treated again. Addiction gone. poof.
If he does not get help, that’s a deal-breaker to me. If it isn’t for you, find a support group for you. The concepts of Al-Anon apply to the loved ones of any addict, not just alcohol.
Porn is a tool used to arouse and provoke sexual behavior. There is no emotional attachment to the person you see. It is easy, though for some folks to confuse the rush of stimulation with emotion. The happy ending there is a physical whatever.
Romances are about emotional growth and attachment and a happy ending. Romance is the most optimistic of genres. The happy ending is a validation of the world-view of the reader: that all can be right with the world.
If you do choose to stay in the relationship, maybe you just need a book cover to cover the image. whatta I know
@aspexi, that’s awesome.
I grew up in an AA family, and we went through the stages of “No zealot like a fresh convert” to “actually dealing with the thing that caused the alcoholism.” My recovering alcoholic parent now can have a dinner with people who are drinking and not flip his lid- this was not true in the early stages of sobriety. But he had to get to that point and it was on him to get there. My other parent knew that was the price of admission for this relationship.
When I went home back in the carefree days when I could still drink (stupid migraines) I did not bring alcohol into the house because it was THEIR house, and to do so would be rude. But in this case, this was not the stated price of admission, so the opportunity to compromise before he moved in has passed, and it’s not his house, it’s his and Conflicted’s house.
And also, just to lead some weight to my “it’s him controlling what gives her pleasure” argument, in general, men are a lot less stimulated by written words than women are- the romance novels are probably not going to be a heavy duty trigger for him. I think he’s being a dick.
Great response Sarah, I couldn’t have said it better.
Well, I’m curious… and this IS something that does happen-I’ve seen it happen. When I was doing allergy/asthma working in nursing, people would come in, get that diagnosis of cat allergies, and particularly if they were asthamtic-the other part was a huge cat lover. Some people wouldn’t give up the cat-would literally put their partner’s health in danger.
Is is a sacrifice? Yes. But if health plays into it? If there is a loving, strong marriage, and they love each other, they should be willing to make sacrifices for the other.
Now compromise is routine, I will say. Sacrifice-type stuff wouldn’t be routine, and I think the above discussion about romance books would likely fall into compromise more than sacrifice.
I noticed you didn’t address any of the other issues… those are sacrifices my husband and I have made-they aren’t always fun ones, either.
A successful, happy marriage isn’t roses and white picket fences and lollipops. It’s work, and commitment, compromise…and yes, I’m sorry, sometimes it does require sacrifice.
As long as it’s not one side always giving in, and as long as it’s for the strength of the marriage as a whole-it’s not about one side getting it up on the other, or one partner always getting what THEY want.
It’s about both partners doing what they need to do to keep their marriage together, solid and strong.
Frankly, I think he is just looking for an excuse to create a new porn collection. By equating the porn collection to your romance collection, he is trying to guilt you into allowing him to have porn. If you do not “allow”him to have porn, he will make sure you lose something just as important to you. Either way, you may want to get a new boyfriend.
I think this is little different from the partner of an alcoholic not keeping booze in the house. Or loading the pantry with cookies and chips when you know your sweetie is trying to diet.
Obviously the guy doesn’t quite understand the differences between porn and romance and is uncomfortable by the perceived similarities. Snaps to him for being honest enough to open the discussion.
I suggest a good, long talk and an ereader with a security feature.
A lot of interesting and thought provoking posts thus far, but since I don’t think any guys have offered an opinion yet, I’ll throw in my two cents.
As far as I can tell from the original letter the BF doesn’t sound like an addict, but rather a guy who made what he considered a grand gesture to prove his devotion to Conflicted. He probably knew she had issues in the past, and in a moment of bravura stated that he would throw all his porn away to prove how much he cared for her. She clapped her hands, he dumped the stuff dramatically in the trash, and they were probably both very happy (and he must have felt quite noble and self-sacrificing).
Flash forward a few weeks. Dude begins to regret his impulsive gesture, and notices that Conflicted spends all her time reading romance novels. He misses his porn, sees her enjoying herself, and his eagerness to prove himself slowly becomes annoyance.
His carefully thought out ‘argument’ as to why romance = porn (from his POV) simply seems to be a rather petulant ‘fair is fair’ kind of deal. Though Conflicted didn’t ask him to toss his stuff, he did it for her (I doubt he would have thrown it away if he had remained single), and now he feels that she should match his gesture with some equal form of self sacrifice. ‘If I can’t have fun you can’t have fun either’ kind of argument.
So I don’t think he’s an addict, but instead simply an immature guy who’s come to regret a moment of voluntary self sacrifice and is now reverting to 3rd grade style justice.
I really don’t have any advice to add regarding this situation, but I did want to say something regarding the whole porn vs. romance debate. I have also struggled with the idea of whether or not romance is “porn for women.” And I think sometimes it is. If it wasn’t, then I don’t think this would be such a confusing issue. But most of the time…romance isn’t. It’s just reading a good book. But time and time again, mainstream media portrays the “porn for woman” stereotype and reinforces this viewpoint. How many times have we seen this scene acted out in movies/TV/novels?
Hero opens up the nightstand drawer next to the heroine’s bed and discovers a romance novel. He opens the book to a random page and reads “his member was throbbing as he stared at her bountiful bosom” or something equally ridiculous.
Well, I just conducted a non-scientific experiment on three novels that I have sitting on my desk: a Celeste Bradley, a Lisa Kleypas and a Shiloh Walker. I randomly opened each book at three places to see what I’d find. Well guess what? I only opened up on a sex scene once (in the Kleypas book) and it really only happened b/c there’s a crease in the book there (I really like this particular sex scene. LOL). Honestly I was a little surprised about the Walker book. Her books tend to be rather hot and heavy. I figured I’d at least open up to the hero thinking about sexing up the heroine, but nope. Once there was mention of the hero being on edge and the f-word used as a curse word, but that was it. Maybe everyone should conduct there own experiment and see how not-often we come up with a sex scene.
Most everything awesome and insightful has already been said. I was actually a little disappointed with the immediate “dump him, do not pass go, do not collect $200” response. A lot of important details are missing from the letter (whose idea was it to throw out the porn, for starters.) If the boyfriend is “otherwise amazing and wonderful” (a phrase used by both truly happy AND deeply deluded partners) I think he at least deserves a chance to try to work through this with her. If he is just hyper-sensitive because he recently gave up his habit, (which was my initial thought) then his behavior still isn’t cool, but it shouldn’t be a deal breaker, provided the two of them can work through it together. If, on the other hand, this is just item #23 on the list of things she does that he doesn’t like, then perhaps she should reconsider the relationship.
And I don’t think this is spam. I don’t get the sense that the LW was in doubt of the distinction between porn and romance. Rather, she was having a difficult time articulating that difference to her boyfriend.
If you’re not using the phrase “get off” in an orgasmic sense but in a “I Feel Happpeeee!” sense, well, I “get off” on finding bargains at the grocery store. This means reading the sales flyers and coupon pages is porny for me. I can’t help it! I get all excited and giddy and think OMG we may not have to eat FREAKIN RICE AND BEANS all week, OMG salmon’s on SALE and it’s PERFECT GRILL WEATHER!!!!
If you are using the phrase in the orgasmic sense, in that romance readers generally feel orgasmic after reading romance, then I disagree. I think the romance happpeeeee is much more varied. I don’t feel the sexual kind of happpeeee after reading romance. Based on the comments here, a lot of readers don’t.
I didn’t, because a long addressing of those would be derailing of the main point. I see abuser warning signs, you don’t. I think compromise is one thing, asking people to give up (sacrifice) things they enjoy is radically different.
My feeling there was we’re not going to agree, why derail everyone else getting into it? My point is made, your point is made, let everyone move on.
Okay regarding someone asking a loved one to give up something…I think it depends on the conversation. If someone is buying books rather than paying bills…then there might be a problem. If someone is refusing to communicate or deal with problems by escapism, then there is a problem. But that is true of any substance, any enjoyment, if it interferes with you living a healthy life then it is not healthy (have a fight …go out for a jog? that also could be a way of avoiding problems).
Porn vs Romance. I take a different view here. I don’t see anything offensive about celebrating sexuality, sensuality, in any form. I do think that it should be balanced by a firm dose of ‘reality’ vs “air-brushed’, and “reality’ vs ‘fiction”. A woman’s lover should not expect her to like the kinks portrayed , or look like the fantasy women of porn (or men). Likewise a woman should not expect her lover to be as perfect, hung, great smelling, sensitive, muscular, tall, wealthy, elegant as the men/werebeast/vampire in her novels. These are both fantasies…and nice to play with, but reality is work, and compromise and not perfect without some practice on both parts.
Do I think porn objectifies women? Yeah, but so does any ad for a new perfume or jean. But if you feel objectified, give him a smile, and pick up a J.D. Robb novel and ask “So when you going to invent things that change the world, while looking like James Bond and making sure I have three orgasms for every one of yours?”…and realize you do it too…
spam word: dark76 76 ways to enjoy the dark? oh there are soo many more!!!
I think the key issue is whether reading romance novels is doing any actual harm to the relationship.
Clearly, the boyfriend perceived some sort of harm from his porn addiction, which is why he gave it up. I know of many marriages that fell apart or went through great struggles because the husband became addicted to porn. For some guys, use of porn seems to escalate until they’re involved in paid phone sex and paid video sex and racking up enormous credit card bills. Or they find that the “tame” stuff they started with no longer gets them off after a while, so they need more and more extreme or violent images… until they reach the point that “normal” sex with a “normal” woman is no longer sufficient for them.
I am not aware of romance novels causing these kinds of problems. I suppose it’s theoretically possible that someone could be so addicted to romance novels that their book spending could be totally out of control. Or they could be so obsessed with their romance heroes that no “normal” guy will ever ben good enough for them. But I don’t know of a single real world case where that’s happened, whereas I know of several real world cases where porn addiction has severely damaged or destroyed a relationship (it happened to one of my best friends).
I think romance novels, much as we love them, just don’t have that kind of power. They don’t provide that kind of dopamine hit, or create the kind of powerful sexual feelings that can lead to addiction. If an addiction to romance novels ever happens, it’s got to be rare.
Furthermore, I think it’s possible to enjoy things that have addictive qualities as long as you’re capable of enjoying them in moderation. I don’t mind if a boyfriend occasionally indulges in porn. I may not be super enthuasiastic about the habit, and I may prefer not to see the images myself, but as long as it’s not an addiction, I’m okay with it. I once had a boyfriend I used to watch porn videos with once in a while.
In short, if reading romance novels is not an addiction, and is not harming the relationship, I don’t think she should have to give them up just because her boyfriend gave up his porn.
Another argument Conflicted might wish to offer is the very real difference between romance and porn: in porn actual, real, live people are photographed and filmed. They stand about in a well-lit studio in front of people they do not know and perform acts most of us would not wish to share with anyone, outside the privacy of our own personal relationship and our own bedrooms.
Romance is fictional (excluding the very few cases where they are based on real, historical characters). These people never existed except in their author’s brain. The author shares those characters because s/he loves them and wants you to love them too. I suspect there’s very little love between the producers and crew of a porn shoot and their characters.
So romance is a love story on many levels: the love story in the book itself, yes, but also a labour of love by the author: just like a beautiful painting, a lovingly hand-crafted pot or tapestry (insert artwork of your choice). Asking you to give up your romance is somewhat similar to asking him to not play golf / do wordworking / insert loved hobby of your choice. That does not include porn. Porn has nothing to do with love. And if he doesn’t have a hobby he loves – get him one!
Phil, I think you nailed it. SHE had issues with porn due to past relationships, he knew it, he made grand gesture, he now regrets grand gesture as no complimentary gesture is forthcoming, he now want’s his porn back. I see insecurity and immaturity on both sides.
I think I’m missing something here. I didn’t read in the letter that he actually asked her to get rid of her romance novels. What I read was that he asked her what the difference was between them and porn.
See this is the problem with allowing publishers to dictate book covers. Trashy looking covers lead to the stereotype of romance as porn.
Actually like Shiloh I don’t think he sounds so bad. In the real world a guy giving up something he likes is pretty awesome. He might have given it up for her,she doesn’t say.
He needs to read a few and to understand the covers do not make the book. Playboy,playgirl,hustler and internet porn is so far removed from romance novels there’s no comparison.
Back again…blimey; lots of comments to get through.
Okay, compromise/sacrifice.
Possibly it is a semantics debate, but I don’t see anything wrong with sacrificing for a loved one. We all do it. Time, money, effort, the right to avoid the wet patch…
Maybe compromise is a preferable word for some people, and I can see why. It implies meeting halfway whereas sacrifice is giving something up.
Well, yes, but I see it as giving something up for the greater good. So you may end up with something better than you had before.
Again, I don’t see anything demanding/porn-addicted in the original letter or email. He asked, he spoke, he voiced his opinions. That’s a good thing, right? Communication. He’s to be applauded IMO.
Quick shout out to Shiloh Walker – I agree with nearly everything you’ve said about compromise/sacrifice.
As for porn/erotica? My oh my…I’ve gotten involved in many heated discussions there. Given that I’ve just got home and have a headache, I think I’ll leave it for another day. 😉