Every now and again, readers will interact with authors online and kerfuffles ensue. I know, it’s so rare, but it happens. No, really.
And sometimes in the course of these festive occasions, you’ll see commentary from a reader who is so incensed, so horrified by what an author has written that there is Epic Flounce and a vow to never read or buy that author’s books again!
(Pretend there was a really impressive echo feature on that last sentence, kthx.)
I usually blink at these flounces because it takes a LOT for me to reach a point where I am unable to see past my impression of an author to the point where my reaction interferes with my reading that author’s book. And yet many, many readers online have vowed publicly to never spend another penny on an author whose opinion, even an opinion expressed thoughtfully, is too distasteful to them – though who knows if their actual purchase history follows through on that threat.
As a result, I know many authors struggle with how much of themselves to reveal on their websites, with many individuals refraining from discussing politics or news or favorite books or even television shows for fear of alienating their readership. I know more than one author who hesitated to mention whom she was voting for in the last election, because many readers see the romance community online as a politics-free zone.
Then there are authors like Suzanne Brockmann who not only wear their pride-colors proudly but donate proceeds to fund raise on behalf of her chosen causes by donating the proceeds from a recent novel – a novel featuring a gay protagonist pair. Some readers may be turned off, but there’s no mistaking Brockmann’s position. Even recently, she’s been most clear about her position on the subject, and how she feels people may react to her writing, and a whole lot of people were shocked and turned off by Brockmann’s reaction, particularly in that she assigned homophobic motivation to those who were upset at the plot of her latest book.
As I said earlier, it takes a hell of a lot for me to reach that line of Never-Buy, where I can’t see past the conviction of the author to lose myself in that author’s writing. So let’s visit the other end of that spectrum. I’ll be honest: this author’s website tripped right over my Never-Buy line.
However, let me be clear: it’s not a question of the fact that I disagree mightily with her opinion. I do, most holy shit heartily. But I know many people who do not see the same way I do when it comes to gay rights and homosexuality. I care for some people who see the idea of gayness in a diametric opposition to my own position, and when we discuss do discuss it, they try (I hope!) understand my opinion, and I try to understand theirs, even though I disagree so very very much. It’s not like disagreeing with me lands you on my shit list for life.
What I find most objectionable here is the manner in which the opinion is expressed in this particular instance. Or, more succinctly, the flying leap into the pool of WTF that this author has chosen to employ on her professional website.
On Dorchester author Autumn Dawn’s website, there’s a section called “Chatterbox” wherein she writes:
Naturally, my biblically based beliefs include “one man, one woman”
relationships. The bible states clearly that homosexuals will not enter the
kingdom of heaven. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 is crystal clear about God’s
feelings about this. Contrary to the propaganda, I believe that
homosexuality is a choice, like stealing, like drinking, like drugs.
Addictive, sure, but a choice, one that can be overcome.Making gay marriage legal won’t overcome their guilt, depression and
confusion. It won’t take away the pain they live with. So many children
are raped and grow up thinking they are gay as a result. Many come from
broken or dysfunctional homes. It’s the unadvertised truth of
homosexuality. Take a poll some time and see if it’s true….I don’t share my personal beliefs with many as I’m a writer, and a romance one at that. This is what goes into my books, though. This is part of who I am.
Taking any extreme, whether you’re Brockmann or Dawn, yields some consequences, and the result depends on the reader.
But when the opinion is backed up by statements like “raped children are gay” and followed up with “take a poll…and see if it’s true,” the limit of my ability to see the narrative in spite of the author has been reached. Oh, how it has been reached.
It’s not even about royalties with me. Because Dawn says, “This is what goes into my books, though. This is part of who I am,” I don’t want to read her books, because I would be constantly wondering if any element of a book that rang oddly was a slight against homosexuality or if the subtext of any scene or thematic arc was a diatribe against gays.
The experience of reading this author’s website has tainted my ability to read beyond the author’s name to the story within the cover. I can agree or disagree with an author’s opinions and still read their books; I’ve done it before.
But when the manner in which the opinion is conveyed is so truly repulsive to me, I’m done. The line of Never-Buy has been crossed.
Where’s your line? What trips it? If you don’t want to be specific, that’s fine, but when dealing with efforts toward public branding of an author’s name online, where’s the line of Never-Buy for you as a reader?
For the few authors on my Do Not Buy list, they made it there because they were rude to myself or a reader. Usually it has to be something I’ve witnessed.
I can’t say an author’s politics would stop me from buying their books only because a good book is a good book. Now if they tried to force their politics down my throat….that’s another story.
I think my never buy line is pretty hard to get to. I tend to go there not because of the authors personal opinions or politics but instead in relation to the actual book quality itself. For example, an author whose books progressively deteriorate in quality goes to the never buy list.
In my case, I read Autumn Dawn when she wrote ebooks and I liked her one series. Unfortunately, she never seemed to quite make that leap in writing and I was always left hungry for something. So, I stopped buying. So, she is now on the never buy, don’t borrow from the library, and do not even glance at the book in the bookstore list.
I recently read a book, can’t recall the name, that posited that the writer becomes a sort of character in his or her books—that the reader comes away with a perception of the person writing the story. I think there is a certain truth to that.
I’m not talking about readers thinking horror writers are deranged or what have you, which is absurd, but that readers tend to have a feeling on whether or not that’d like the writer and perhaps his or her stances on certain things.
A blogging or opinionated writer risks showing herself to be different than the perception or going from subtly making her presence known in her stories to being too present.
On the other hand, some writers gain readers this way, too. They like the online persona and so they give the writer their support.
My no buy zone is more related to whether I enjoyed the book or not, whether I found the writing good, etc. I suppose I’d wouldn’t buy Cassie Edwards or Janet Dailey but those books don’t appeal to me anyway, so it’s no great sacrifice.
I love Jenny Cruise’s books. If she made a joke in poor taste, well it’s no worse than I’ve done. The internet means we can stuff up to a wider audience!
I didn’t read all of the B&N Q&A, just the last post by Hopefloats and Ms. Brockmann. I have mixed feelings about her response. However, I really enjoy her books.
I haven’t read DON yet. I am waiting to see what I think of the various pairings but I did expect Decker and Sophia to get together and was suprised at the end of ITF. I don’ really know what I think about it yet. It may be in DON, but I don’t feel that up to the end of ITF there was that many clues that Deck and Sophia weren’t going to get a HEA with each other. I thought that Dave would be swept of his feet by someone else. Does anyone know whether it was always the plan for Dave and Sophia to get together or was it a fairly recent move?
I did think that Ms. Brockmann copped out a little in ATTN – her other novels have steamy sex scenes but with Jules and Robin, it stopped at the bedroom door. She did write that she didn’t want to offend her readership. I thought that ATTN was pretty stand alone though and those readers who didn’t want to read explicit scenes could skip the book. I wanted to see what she would do with it. In the end, I felt a little cheated. I mean, if you’re gonna do it (write a mainstream m/m romance), go all the way. Just my opinion though.
Great thread. Have enjoyed reading the posts. Must get back to work now!!
My DO NOT BUY/READ ANYTHING BY AUTHOR DOE line is pretty much at this point: an author commits treason (against country or in personal life) for personal financial gain. I’ve not yet come up against this scenario, thank goodness. Other than that, there are certain genres I don’t buy or read, but that’s just my general taste, not author specific squick.
My no-buy line is kinda fuzzy, and sometimes easily tripped. Other times, not so much. It’s an individual thing. I won’t buy plagiarists—if they’ve been proven guilty. I pretty much won’t buy anything on Oprah’s list out of the understanding that anything she likes, I will probably hate (we all read for escape, and she must read to escape the life of joy, fame, fortune, good luck, and happy endings, LOL). Most of the time, an author’s political opinions or pet issues are things that, if discovered, I will hold separate from the author’s work. Unless and until that author either goes batshit crazy about them, uses the work to preach or push the author’s agenda (thus making the “tell a good story” goal take a backseat), or those opinions are truly loathsome to me.
Authors Behaving Badly is occasionally amusing, and I’ve been known to drop some silver on an author with an opinionated presence, sometimes just to throw a little good mojo their way for taking a stand and sticking to it, or for being insightful, if less than tactful. I’m an author myself (albeit a very very small potato), and I try to be polite and respectful in public (including the internet) while still trying to be myself, and my quirky sense of humor is bound to end up rubbing someone the wrong way. I’m hoping that I’m articulate enough that whenever that happens, I’ll at least get points for “generally inoffensive.”
Authors can be passionate about issues, as long as their writing is still good. Whoever posted about the “we interrupt this decent story for a two-page screed on pro-life issues”—I totally hear you. More than one dent in my walls comes from just that thing. And some from other issues—some I even agree with. But dude—if you have to STOP THE STORY to get your issue position out, then UR DOIN’ IT RONG. Move two spaces backwards to the “tell a good story” space and lose a turn. (Y HALO THAR TOM CLANCY)
This Autumn Dawn’s opinions would normally not affect me as much—she’s entitled like everybody else to her own opinions. But not her own facts, which is where she trips the trigger onto the “avoid like the plague.” Her idea that “one man+one woman=biblically based” makes me wonder if she’s read the same Bible, considering most of the relationships in the Bible are “one man+all the women he can afford”—as per the reality of life in the ancient near east at the time. If she’s that light on facts in her bio, what kind of sloppy work will I see in her writing? I read many a Christian author, I have no doubt, but you wouldn’t know that because they don’t feel the need to advertise it when it’s completely irrelevant to their skill in telling a story. It’s like sex—if you have to brag about it, you ain’t gettin’ it.
Now on the other hand, this author’s declaration is also a marketing move in itself. While it turns off the folk like me, it’s also a siren call to folk on the other end of the spectrum. She’s branded herself as a Christian, and that brand calls to mind a certain type of product. One that a certain demographic is looking for. Like any marketing effort, it’s bound to both attract and repel.
As for me—I’m a little more likely to seek out a new-to-me author for something insightful or funny or brave that they do than I am to cross them off when they do something stupid or ignorant.
As someone else said I love the Dresden series and Jim Butcher doesn’t seem chauvinistic at all.
I will never read C.S. Harris again after she cursed out and ranted against a so/so review at Amazon.
I won’t support people who have plagiarized or support plagiarism.
My DNB list is populated by authors who’ve jumped the shark with me in terms of what they’re bringing to the story. LKH, R.A. Salvatore (with the exception of his Sellswords series- that was fantastic), Dean Koontz; they’ve all hit a point with me where it seems like they’re writing by formula.
Here I go about to cross some readers lines…
There is one author that took my don’t buy line and crossed off her whole genre.
And I was a huge Fan through the first seven books or so. I was a regular on her board and drove 12 hours to see her in person.
But after watching how on message boards and in person she isolated herself in a world where nothing was allowed but lackeys and fan girls/boys that she could feed her flagging self esteem with much like her characters feed off their mates I was done. Done not just with her but the whole genre. But she didn’t really want me as a fan anyway, I’m not her size. (that’s not snarky that was basically what she herself said)
I know there is still great stuff out there by other authors but I just can’t bring myself buy any of it.
But hey she did hire my favorite adult film star in basically a non- porn role so that’s one good thing she’s done.
Also @ Alex. I’ll with you. Southerns hard to capture correctly if you’re not one. So please don’t try if you know not what you do. There is one author that personally I like but won’t buy her books because she got her southern hero so so so wrong.
I wonder if Ms. Dawn shared Anne McCaffrey’s beliefs about the life-changing dangers of tent pegs?
LKH for me too. Normally there aren’t many authors on my “never read” list because I don’t know anything about the authors, though my enjoyment of their works could be easily swayed in the same way every time I try to watch Braveheart, my mind goes “GRRR!” and I cannot enjoy it, even if it’s being presented for free.
If books I read by an author are bad, I generally won’t buy other books by that author because it’d be a bad investment, but a well regarded best-seller could easily persuade me to by again. Similarly, if an author has a bad stretch and then recovers (Stephen King), I’ll more than happily return.
When LKH’s books took a nosedive, I was really disappointed, but didn’t know much about her at that point. I went online to see if my opinion to her latest at the time had just been me on an off day or if others found it garbage-tastic as well, and found her response to criticism to be that people simply were not *sophisticated* enough to understand what she was trying to do. My response was “Uh… I loved your first 8 books, but even I wouldn’t have confused them for requiring sophistication.”
Now, even if her books do or have recovered, don’t care. Not interested.
I am always disappointed if an author I really like turns out to be a jerk, so when I do stumble across an author’s good attitude or similar opinions, I always have an internal sigh of relief.
My lines:
1. Plaigiarists. I’m sorry, but this is our uber-professional ethic. Wait, no. I’m not sorry. This is our uber-professional ethic. You plaigiarize, you are dead to me. I will tell everyone I see even picking up your book that you are a plaigiarist. What they do with that information is their own decision.
2. I don’t like the writing. I’ve got way too many books to work my way through that I just don’t have time to waste my time on books whose writing, for whatever reason, make me want to bang my forehead on the closest desktop. This is usually due to poor grammar usage, and if I get annoyed by poor grammar, it is beyond poor. (There’s a reason why I have crit buddies and they save my bacon every time.)
For the record, reason #2 is usually enacted after a series of disappointments with regular reads. I will then move them to the “get them from the library” list if it’s a series I’ve been invested in. If the writing continues to irk me, I’ll just give up on it altogether. For most authors who are BSC, 99% of the time, I wasn’t aware of them before they went BSC so I’m not likely to have been invested in them enough to buy in the first place.
Trial76 – Yeah, I just hit the delete key on a too snarky comment.
Maybe my first comment didn’t go through?
I’m not sure about where my never buy line is so I can’t answer that question. I’ve bought books from obnoxious self-righteous authors and I’ve also bought books from authors whose views I don’t see eye to eye with. Maybe all that matters to me is the writing itself. That might not be true in all cases. If I do get hooked to an author, I fall very hard for him/her, which brings me to this comment.
aninsomniac said on…
02.09.09 at 09:10 AM
Just to talk about book one…
As a reader of this series (I’m on the third book now), I highly doubt that Jim Butcher is sexist. I hate it when readers or anyone else, take cheap shots at an author when they don’t know an author personally. Maybe I’m too sensitive to this because I saw this happen to Josh Lanyon recently, and he was an author I also loved reading and interacting with. Anyway, Jim Butcher might not be sexist, but Harry Dresden (the character) most likely is sexist, by his own admission, and when it’s been pointed out to him by other characters around him.
This is a deliberate character flaw that gets him into loads of trouble and it couldn’t be more obvious that it is a flaw[/flaw]. Dresden makes a guess (a sexist guess) at who the killer might be at the beginning of the first book, and he’s wrong. (I’d actually say that about half of Dresden’s guesses/assumptions are wrong, sometimes he’s waaay more wrong than right.) He thinks that women need to be saved, and that creates more trouble for him than it’s worth because he didn’t trust Murphy. And the female characters in that book were solid and independent if anything. They’re the take-charge kind of people, even Susan the reporter (she’s the one who takes the initiative and asks Dresden out, when Dresden clearly likes her but doesn’t take the step). I really don’t think Jim Butcher is sexist.
Currently, there are six authors whose books I will never read for reasons that have nothing to do with their writing ability.
Orson Scott Card for his blatant and unpleasantly expressed homophobia and his persistent Anti-Europeism
Holly Lisle for sprouting bizarre conspiracy theories about muslims trying to take over the western world as well as equally bizarre conspiracy theories about how chain bookstores have been trying to ruin her career. I think I spotted a bit of homophobia on her blog, too.
It’s actually a pity, because both authors have good writing advice. Plus, like many others I enjoyed Ender’s Game and likely would have enjoyed Ms. Lisle’s books, too. Ms. Dawn has also just made my “Do not buy/read for political reasons” list and I might well have read her, because I like futuristic/SF romances.
There are also two male SFF authors I refuse to ever read again, because they have personally attacked and insulted me on internet messageboards. Neither of them is a great loss, because I immensely disliked the books of both authors. In fact, I only read them, because those were authors I knew and wanted to support.
There is a female SFF author I refuse to read after reading an interview with her in which she stated that she never reads fiction unless she absolutely has to. Why should I read an author who obviously hates reading? Unfortunately, she has a similar name and writes similar stuff to another female SFF author, so now I read neither of them because I keep getting them mixed up.
Finally – and I admit that this is silly – I refuse to read a female SFF author, because she trashed my then favourite TV show on her blog. However, it’s not the fact that she hated something I enjoyed that made me swear never to pick up her books but the way in which she did it. Not liking something and posting about it is okay, but calling it the worst thing ever and something that only complete idiots and sexually stunted twelve-year-olds could enjoy is not.
Authors like Terry Goodkind or Cassie Edwards are distasteful, but I would never have read their books anyway, because they just don’t appeal to me. I didn’t know about Anne Perry and have read and enjoyed her books. Frankly, it doesn’t particularly bother me either, because it happened over fifty years ago.
My lines are the fairly common ones:
1. Author expresses an active opposition to the fundamental human rights of harmless groups. (Opposing the fundamental human rights of harmful groups is not cool with me, but I suspect I would need the author to commit additional Crazy in order to make me stop reading books I like. Fortunately for my ethics, these sort of people usually have Crazy pouring off them.)
2. Author actively supports behaviors I find extremely objectionable. I have a broad tolerance for lots of things, though, so this is more a matter of personal taste than anything else. I’m not going to read most Xian romances where a driving force of the plot is the heroine submitting to the men in her life in order to be more godly, but that’s really me not wanting to read a book I think is bad, rather than an author I necessarily think is bad.
3. I get burned too many times by an author whose ability has noticeably fallen off. I’ll give a book or three to see if it’s just a temporary glitch, but so far in my experience it has been systemic. I just reach an end of my patience and prefer to put my time where the odds are better.
This is probably a dumb question, but what is “wallpaper history”? All Google shows me is the history of that stuff you paste on walls.
I should also note that unprofessionalism will do me in as reader. Batshit crazy alone won’t do it—whatever Crazy was dished by Michael Crichton, he generally did it with professionalism. (Yes, the unfavorable Tuckerizing was less than professional, but it was subtle. Only people who already knew the story would know what he was about.)
(I don’t mean to sound like a Crichton apologist, really I don’t. But I used to work for his publisher, and I worked on a lot of his books, and he was one of the best authors to work with. Always on time, always concrete in his opinions and suggestions. If he ever spewed the Crazy on anyone in the office, they kept it to themselves. Given the rumormill in a publishing house, it makes it unlikely he ever did any such thing.)
I allow authors their humanity. People sometimes snap, and forget that they are in public. It takes a repeated pattern of lunacy for me to decide the person is chronically unpleasant, not just having a bad day.
LKH wandered onto my “don’t bother” list because her books started to bore me, but she moved on the “don’t buy, even if they improve” list because she spews Crazy all over the internet. (So does Anne Rice, for that matter. Every time a writer of vampire fiction becomes a bestseller, I start to wonder how long it will be before they cross the Crazy line.)
Plagiarism is right out. Done, cooked, eaten, and puked back up again.
Someone upthread mentioned how would other people like it if someone came and critiqued how they were doing their job? Well, as a matter of fact, people do that all the time. It’s called an “annual review,” and most companies have policies where supervisors can call an employee on the carpet at at will if they’re not doing a good enough job.
Granted, an author doesn’t directly work for me, but I (and others) do pay for her books. I certainly want to know if a particular book is worth paying for, and the only way for me to know is if other people tell me how they liked the book. Just as I wouldn’t hire an employee whose previous employer said they were a goof-off, so will I not read a book that reviews indicate isn’t worth my time.
Please note that there is a qualitative difference in reviews. One that focuses on the book is better than one that focuses on the author. One that discusses specifically why the reader did or didn’t like particular aspects is better than one that offers a basic plot summary and generalization such as “this book is dull and/or exciting.”
De-lurking to add my own defense of Jim Butcher.
The Dresden files are the last series I’d accuse of sexism. Harry Dresden isn’t perfect, but that’s one of the reasons these are some of my favorite books – Butcher has no problem presenting his hero as flawed and frequently has other characters (gleefully) point out just what an idiot he can be. And Harry does grow and change in ways that clearly indicate Butcher is not sexist. To cite one example…
KIND OF A SPOILER once Harry finally stops protecting Karrin Murphy and starts trusting her with the truth, Murphy immediately saves his ass from a giant plant monster. Throughout the rest of the books she remains one of his staunchest allies and the one he most frequently goes to for tactical support. END SPOILER
My line for Brockman was passed when I realized that I had been pointed towards, and given hope for, a couple that was never going to happen. It broke my trust in her, and I’d seriously been considering no longer buy her books. I read DON, gagged over Sophia and Dave, laughed over Decker and Tracy, and was reminded why Sam and Alyssa and Jules and Robin are my two favorite couples. Now, on top of breaking my trust, Brockman is telling me that I may just be a homophobe because I didn’t care for a story line that had nothing to do with gay people. This was my Never-Buy line, which is a shame, cause even with reading DON in the bookstore I was still able to see that her writing is still compelling. But I’m not trying to give my hard earned money over to someone who, I believe, has insulted me and my opinion.
And as to Dawn, it goes without saying that this is someone I’ll never buy. Seriously, she sounds like a religious wacko, and that scares me.
(and to just in case: I don’t think people who are religious live in crazy town, but when religion pushes you to be so close minded, that’s when it’s crossed the line. For me, at least)
My NBL is rather flexible, I guess, and goes along the same lines as what Justice Stewart said about porn: “I’ll know it when I see it.”
There are obvious lines, such as plagiarism. You plagiarize, you are dead to me. Another line is one of extremely unprofessional behavior/abuse. Regarding interactions with fans, I suppose it depends on the situation, the severity, and if it’s a one-time judgment lapse (that hopefully you’ve acknowledged and apologized for if need be) or a long pattern of disrespect / overblown ego / tantrums. If you demonize, virtually beat up, stalk, or otherwise attack a fan / reviewer / fellow human being simply because they didn’t think your book was the perfection you know it to be, I’ll most likely judge you for that – as well as any other authors/friends who you bring along in your pack of bullies. I’m not saying you have to take abuse without defending yourself, but at least keep it in perspective and proportion, and show a bit of common sense and professionalism in your response. Be the better person, if you will – or at very least avoid becoming a PR nightmare. As a rule, readers don’t remember ‘regular people’ who go off on the internet. They are much more likely to remember an ‘author’ who does.
Also, if you voice a strong opinion with justifications about why you hold that opinion, I won’t generally have a problem – even if I vehemently disagree with you. OTOH, voice a strong opinion without being able to back it up, and/or denigrate any and all who disagrees with you simply for holding an alternate POV, and I might take issue. If it’s a pattern of abuse or ignorance (can’t defend position with reason, resorting to name-calling, etc), to the point that I can’t respect you and/or separate you from your writing, then I probably won’t purchase your books.
But I’m okay with that – just as I am not obligated to buy and love every book you write, you don’t have to contribute to my livelihood either. And I generally hold non-authors by the same standard.
I personally don’t care as much what someone thinks as I care that they think at all. If someone can politely and reasonably tell me, “I think (insert opinion here) because (insert justification here),” and it’s not completely BTC or a lame cop-out, I’ll generally respect their right to hold that opinion – even when they are wrong. That’s not to say I won’t debate or disagree, mind you, especially if I can drive a truck through the holes in logic. But if I – as a result of our disagreement – hold their views against them, chances are that I’ve lost respect for them because they were patronizing, obnoxious, or else so ignorant / lazy / unenlightened they couldn’t defend their positions with reason and instead resorted to whining, name-calling and other prevarications and deflections. (And yes, I deserve numerous tickets from the grammar police for those sentences—sorry.)
Back to authors, I’m more likely to give authors I’m familiar with the benefit of the doubt … at least until the behavior becomes so flagrant that it can’t be overlooked. There’s only one beloved-to-me author who has become so BTC online that I’ve seriously considered not buying any future books. How she can write such incredibly unique stories with beautiful, amazing and memorable prose, yet use the same keyboard to go off on indefensible rants is beyond me. The mind boggles. Woman, save yourself and step away from the internets! Luckily for me, she has apparently decided to write in a different genre, using a different name. As a result, I won’t be torn about buying future books.
If, OTOH I haven’t read your work, then it is a lot easier for me to put you on my NBL list, based on what I perceive to be unprofessional/obnoxious behavior. I’ve nothing invested in you, and really only know you based on what I’ve seen/heard/read, after all. The plus side is that, if I have a good perception of you from our online encounters, I’ll probably be more likely pick up your book when I come across it.
Diane :o)
Reg. Dresden files, as I said before, I read only book 1. So, my views are based on that. Okay, I’ll give in to the person who said I shouldn’t pin qualities of the prota on the author, but I have read reviews of his other books (Codex Alera) which also call out on the sexist plots and characters. So, I don’t know. Two different series by the same author, both containing sexist attitude. Even if I am not going to judge the author, I guess this means that I won’t read any book by this guy.
Secondly, I’d better specify what I consider sexist because one of the commentors does not consider the books so.
*Dresden belongs to the “old school” and so he believes that he should open doors for women and pay the restaurant bill, so sue him~
*All the women characters are either mommies, “whores” and damsels. Regressive much?
Some questions to the Dresden fans (and I want to know genuinely):
Is the detective, Murphy, ever shown fighting? She is a martial arts specialist, after all. Does she ever contribute anything to the case other than the formality she can bring by being a cop? What are the number of times she has rescued Dresden vs the times he has rescued her?
Finally, I am one of those people who consider any kind of (unwarranted, generic) prejudice unappealing. So, for me, whether it be bigotry, racism, sexism, ageism, it’s all the same thing. Would Dresden be considered “oh, it’s a protagonist with an interesting character flaw” if he had been racist?
-anin
My line seems to be more easily crossed these days- probably due to the fact that I hang out and more blogs and see a whole lot more of authors than I used to. Whereas it used to just be plagiarists (if you don’t do the work, you don’t deserve my money) and plotlines (rape fantasy- vomiting ensues), I’m now finding myself completely turned off by certain attitudes. There’s one author in particular who used to post regularly on the blogs I frequent, and she was astoundingly abuse towards people who didn’t agree with her. She would insult, demean, and often reduce herself to cheap insults. I had never read her books, and now refuse to do so. That’s my choice.
And now with Ms. Dawn. I have never read her, and now never will, because I choose not to support intolerance. I can’t change the way she feels, but I don’t have to associate, even through her products, with someone who’s going to spew biogtry and misinformation, and shove their religion down my throat. If I wanted to be thumped over the head with bible verses, I’d talk to my parents.
Oh, and as for that whole children-who-were-raped-become-gay thing? I was raped when I was 13, certainly young enough to be considered a child, and I’m straight. My oldest sister, molested for years, is straight. But my middle sister, who was never sexually assulted in any way, is gay. So by Ms. Dawn’s very belief, my sisters and I apparently have it backwards.
I dunno … I was sexually abused most of my young life and I’m bi … so she might be half right … or … you know … not.
I have weird no buy rules. As a historian, some (okay 95%) of the sources I read/own are offensive to me personally. But, I have to have them for the degree.
For funzees, I refused to buy/read Mr. Anthony’s works (writer of Firefly), Catherine Coulter, and Kristian Britian. Anthony because I condones sexual assult, Catherine Coulter because her heroes rape, and Kristian Britian cause she’s kinda a dick.
On the Jim Butcher thread… (Sorry for going off topic SBTB!)
aninsomniac said on…
02.09.09 at 11:30 PM
I was only talking about book one. I never discussed the other books in my example.
You mentioned the Codex Alera series, but we both haven’t read that so I’ll just stick to the Dresden Files.
I’m not sure I remember any mommies, so I’ll have to double check for that one. Unless you’re talking the one mommy where she and her husband are bent on revenge because their child was killed in a cross-fire during shootings. She and her husband were equally villainous/easily manipulated because they were both power-hungry and revenge-hungry. I don’t think that’s sexist.
There are whores because the murder mystery revolves around a brothel house and a powerful mafia gang.
I’m not sure what’s meant by “damsels.” Maybe weak women? I’d have to really disagree with that. All the women main characters are superior to Dresden. Murphy is smarter and more determined and has better nerves of steel. She may also be obnoxious, but the fact remains that if she had half the magic talent that Dresden has, she’d whoop his ass any day. And Susan is much more take-risk and maybe more of a strategist than Dresden is. She walks circles around him when they have conversations. Bianca is a powerful vampire.
I’m assuming this is referring to what Sarah LTB said, but I want to address it anyway. She’s right. The books are not sexist. The main character is (and even in the first book, he’s called out on it and he gets in trouble for it). His opinion of women is what I’d consider chauvinistic, but Jim Butcher doesn’t let Dresden get away with that. There are consequences to Dresden’s attitude. I don’t know what clearer indication of Butcher’s personal stance is needed. This is a series. I’m assuming (and hoping) Dresden grows as a character.
I can’t answer this one completely because I’m only on book three. But yes, she does use her martial arts abilities. She’s in better physical shape than Dresden. He’s kind of skinny and gets easily winded. She does contribute to the case, but not by much because she knows nothing about magic that Dresden doesn’t tell her. And Dresden purposely doesn’t tell her a lot of things. I don’t know the number of times she’s rescued Dresden vs the other way around. At least for the first two books, she’s not trying to rescue Dresden much, just trying to arrest him because he withholds information and therefore obstructs her investigations. But she does kill a man who would’ve killed Dresden in the second book.
I wouldn’t call it an “interesting character flaw.” It’s what it is. A flaw. I don’t consider it an unusual flaw either. There isn’t a single person on earth who doesn’t have a twinge of sexism, racism, bigotry buried in their hearts, whether you’re aware of it consciously or not. All we can do is try to make sure that we acknowledge it’s not a good attitude to have, try not to let it show through in what we say and in our actions, and try to change that way of thinking.
And in the case of this book, it just happens that Dresden let his subconscious need to protect the women around him affect his judgment. I’m going to stick around for the series to see him work past that. And yes, I would say the same if were racist. I’d want to see him get past that.
I can understand how you might be turned off by Dresden’s attitude. And I’m not trying to convince you to like the series. I just wanted to point out that yes, you’re right, Dresden is sexist; no, that does not mean the author is sexist. And it’s inconsiderate and rash to accuse him of something as serious as sexism based on just one book that I don’t think you even finished. I could be totally wrong on this one and please correct me if I am. It just seems almost impossible for you to have read it and not see that Dresden doesn’t get off the hook. He solved the case, but he lost Murphy’s trust at the end of the book.
And this is totally turning into a rant/critical essay of the book, but I think it’s important considering the topic of the post. If we want authors to treat readers with courtesy, we should do the same. We shouldn’t go around slapping accusations on authors based on thin evidence.
Dragoness, a couple of years ago I started quite a long discussion of the term “wallpaper history” and we didn’t come up with one simple definition, but I think the short version would be that the term “wallpaper history” is a way of describing history used as a kind of backdrop in novels (so pretty clothes, big houses/castles, a good excuse for plot developments that couldn’t happen in contemporaries) but the author doesn’t otherwise integrate the history into the characterisation and plot. In a “wallpaper historical” romance you might expect to find characters with very modern attitudes, for example.
Okay, yes, writers who can’t be bothered to get the history right. I look at my list of “Do Not Buy” (a very short list, btw) and most of the entries are writers who insult history by sticking Carrie Bradshaw in the middle of it, and adding a hero who does something so improbable I can’t believe it.
BTW ladies, when I click on the link in the email, it takes me to this blog, but not to the link I’d clicked.
Oh, my God. I just went and read the Q&A session. Suzanne Brockmann is a *saint*. I can’t believe how polite she was in the face of so many people showing up to post variations of, HEY, I DON’T LIKE YOUR DUMB PAIRINGS, WRITE MY FAVOURITE PAIRING INSTEAD!!! I thought fanfic readers had epic self-entitlement, but, wow.
Also, I really didn’t think she was accusing all people who didn’t like her books of being homophobic. I got a pretty clear sense that she was saying *some* of the people who didn’t like them didn’t like them for that reason. And, hey, unless we suddenly woke up in a completely different, happy, shiny world, that has got to be nothing but the truth.
Weighing in rather late on this discussion:
I wouldn’t want to read or buy a book by a known plagiarist or someone who misrepresents fiction as fact or vice versa, but otherwise I think my never-buy line is rather flexible and on a case-to-case basis.
More often than not I simply lose interest in the works of a particular author rather than swearing off him or her. I’m not all that interested in author-as-product and usually disregard or separate a writer’s personal beliefs from his/her work, unless said beliefs start to bleed into the writing in such a way as to become a distraction. I dislike being preached to and lectured, even if I happen to agree with the views presented. And as many here have already pointed out, authors who hold real lunatic fringe viewpoints are fairly easy to weed out, as the writing inevitably comes to reflect these views after a while.
On the other hand, I quite enjoy the poetry of Catullus and Francois Villon, even though I suspect both were people I’d have crossed the street to avoid meeting in real life.
(By the way, this applies only to fiction; if I wanted to create a Nazi character, for instance, I would have no problem reading Mein Kampf as research, even though I deplore the author and his views.)
Bottom line: what matters most to me is the quality of the writing and the author’s ability to tell a good story. Sorry if this post is a bit incoherent; I’m still waking up.
@job:
*waves back*
In an ideal world, I would judge a book based on what’s in the book. That’s because, in the ideal world, I would have a bazillion dollars and (more importantly) a bazillion hours to read every day. In the actual world, I read between juggling day jobs and writing deadlines. I don’t get to read 50% of the books I *want* to read anymore. (weeps quietly) And I still want to give a chance to authors I haven’t met yet, in hopes that I will find even more books I *want* to read. I doubt I am alone.
So I do what everyone does when they can’t judge a book based on what is in the book: I rely on proxies. Sometimes it is reviews. Sometimes it is a prior book.
In my case, of the authors who have landed on my do-not-buy list (e.g., Orson Scott Card) it is a combination of prior book + knowledge of how they view the world—in other words, I know I disagree with them, and I found the treatment of a particular subject in a book written by that author distasteful. In other words, I disagree with them, and in the past that disagreement has showed up in fiction. Is it a perfect proxy for a future book? Nope. But I have to rely on proxies. I am not going to condemn books I haven’t read that the author has written—I haven’t *read* it, after all—but I am not going to spend my valuable money and my even more valuable time chasing after a read that I have good reason to suspect will not be satisfying.
So far, nobody has landed on my do-not-buy list purely because of the things they say online—although I suspect that an author who makes it a point to post things on her business site that I disagree with may also make it a point to slip those things into her book.
But I don’t want to condemn people who apply different proxies than I do to the authors they read. We have to apply proxies. None of them will be perfect. “I didn’t like her first book” may have no bearing on how good an author’s book—in a different genre—may be, but people make that decision all the time.
As for Wagner . . . Wagner is an unholy genius. I adore Wagner’s music, even though everyone knows Mahler is better. But I’m not sure that this is the best example, because you don’t have to read too far into his librettos to find echoes of Aryan superiority/German nationalism and superiority. (I say this, having grown up with a sister who was Wagner-mad, who has read everything there is to read about Parsifal.)
If you can’t hear the Ride of the Valkyries without the hojotohos casting long shadows that end in Ausschwitz, is it wrong for you to avoid Wagner’s music? You can’t hear with any ears but your own, and if you hear things that are adjunct to the music, it’s a feature of being human, not a bug.
Put another way (and coming back to Mahler), the first time I heard Mahler’s 6th was when it was played by the San Francisco Symphony on September 12, 2001, the day after 9/11. It’s the only performance I’ve ever gone to where people literally wept in the audience—and not just because the performance was spectacular, but because the music encapsulated everything we’d lost as a society in the last two days. From here on out, I can’t hear Mahler6 without connecting it to that feeling of despair and a loss of innocence. Is it “fair” to attach that emotion to Mahler? It had nothing to do with the music, and everything to do with the context.
Art is rich, and it forms dense connections in the brain. Not all those connections are going to be rational—but art, and especially art that survives year after year—*requires* that we attach to it those irrational moments. Art is *never* judged solely on its own merit; it can’t be, because its merit depends so much on where it comes from, where it is going. Art isn’t about itself; it’s about how it interacts with us as humans. There is no vacuum to judge these things in. Sometimes people will not be able to appreciate a piece because the context in which it was written comes attached to all sorts of spiky, dangerous things that aren’t part of art itself.
That’s what art is.
Here’s where I think we differ. I think we both agree that *some* proxies can be allowed—e.g., reviews by those who have read the book, prior books by the author. But what I hear you saying is that proxies based on the author’s make up that make you uncomfortable.
So, for instance, someone might say, “I don’t read books by black authors”—and we can all agree that’s a horrible thing for that person to say.
In my mind, I think our disagreement comes down to one of procedure versus substance. That is, you’re saying, the procedure of picking based on author make up is suspect.
I think the procedure itself is okay, but that certain classes of author make-up should not be applied. If you use a bigoted, racist way to exclude authors, you’ll end up with a bigoted, racist choice of books. It’s the substance of the proxy that determines whether it’s okay—not the very nature of using author make up itself.
In short, I don’t blame people who choose bigoted, racist proxies because they end up reading books that were chosen in a bigoted, racist manner. I blame them because they are bigoted and racist. This may be a very fine line to draw in the sand, and I can already feel it obscuring in all this blowing wind, but that’s kind of how it shakes down on my end.
@ Ms Manna: Word.
I do have to wonder, though, if there is any overlap between people who say “My DNB line is where the woman falls in love with her rapist” and those who say “I’ll no longer read SB because she deceived me about Decker and Sofia.”
Because I read that whole story arc as an explicit refutation of the rapist fantasy.
I didn’t care much for DON because I’ve never liked Sofia and Dave is a doormat, so the triangle left me cold. But not as much as the “You betrayed the Glittery HooHah trope!” does.
My Never Buy list is usually based on really bad writing but really egregious behavior by the author can trip it too. LKH and Stephanie Meyer are on my list for poor writing and ego-tripping. I don’t tend to look up anything on an author unless I’ve really enjoyed their work and want more, so that limits my exposure to online drama.
On the Jim Butcher / Dresden Files line – I’ve read all of the books in the series so far and I can say that while Harry certainly starts off a bit chauvinistic in the first books, he seems to grow out of it. Murphy and [other female characters I won’t name to avoid spoilers] quite frequently kick-butt and take names. Harry is mostly a guy who doesn’t get laid nearly often enough and gets into far more dangerous situations than you’d think plausible. The Dresden Files are on my auto-buy list.
I also sincerely doubt Butcher himself is sexist; I’ve teamed with him on an online game and lurked on his website for years and not seen anything that indicates he’s not a pretty cool guy.
Continuing the off-topic subject of Butcher, so skip if you aren’t interested…
I’m baffled by the notion that Butcher is sexist. Of course, I live in West Texas and guys open doors for me all the time. I’m cool with that. I’m a feminist, and am often frustrating by young women who think there is no longer any gender bias—well, they’ll learn, but the hard way. But opening doors does not push my feminist buttons. Nor does Butcher.
I’ve read all the books. Love them, recommend them. IMO, the female characters start out kind of flat; it’s the one problem I have with the series. But not flat in a sexist way—flat in an “a guy wrote these books” way. Fortunately, the gals develop as the series proceeds.
Back OT for a moment: loved Courtney’s post about art and the “spiky, dangerous things” that come attached to it Beautifully stated. We aren’t all going to respond in the same way or use the same proxies because we each bring a different context to the work. And that’s okay.
Eileen
Last Jim Butcher/Dresden files comment from me (I swear!): Okay, I will retract my statement on Jim Butcher being sexist, because I do agree that I cannot take a sum total of one book and get a character profile of him right.
However, I still believe that the Dresden Files are completely chauvinistic in tone. Perhaps my sexism threshold is way low. I do want to say that when I was in high school, I LOVED this character from a book (Sean Murphy from Terminal by Robin Cook) even though he was a total MCP and treated the heroine horribly. I thought he was cool and whatnot. When I re-read it some years ago, I couldn’t stand the bugger. And I couldn’t understand how I could have ever liked him. However, I have a friend who still likes him. It’s her choice and that is cool. So, it’s going to be the same for the Dresden files and its protagonist for me, I’m afraid. The construct of the female characters are just not good enough for me (that is, their description vs their action/behaviour).
I did read the one book but it was such an excruciating process I skimmed through most of it. Don’t care to repeat it.
-anin
Purely as a datapoint in the Butcher thread: his wife, Shannon K. Butcher, is now writing paranormal romances (the first, says her Web site, is due out in a few months).
Extremism will often push me over the line. Too often, those who go to the extreme to defend their stance get insulting.
This has nothing to do with homosexuality, gay rights…it’s just about extremist views in general.
I’ve run into some extremists from both sides and they are the sort of people I basically don’t want anything to do with, and it has nothing to do with their beliefs, their passions, their lives…it has to do with how they express themselves.
No matter how justified their beliefs and passions are, when you get lost in the extremism and lose objectivity, you become insulting. Too often people lose sight of the fact that others may or may not agree with you. Too often you don’t see that just because somebody disagrees with how you SAY things doesn’t mean they disagree with what you are saying.
So extremism will, and has, turned me off of some authors. Insulting behavior will turn me off.
Somebody’s religious beliefs, political beliefs, societal beliefs won’t make me stop reading their work. How they live, what they believe, whether they are democrat, republcan, or a blue man from the red planet doesn’t make any difference to me.
But if they act in a way that is belittling to others or insulting or cruel, that will turn me of their writing. Real quick.
The most jaw dropping moment for me was the TENT PEG quote from Anne McCaffrey closely followed by Anne Rice’s batshit crazy religious freakout and finally the LKH-TMI white trash hall of fame entry.
Now any and all of these writers do have books that I like and have read and I totally get why people read them. I myself would not recommend using them for any type of example of great writers in history so I just put them on my handy dandy THE CRAZY AUNT ETHEL IN THE ATTIC LIST.
THE CRAZY AUNT ETHEL IN THE ATTIC LIST is something shared like a wink and a nudge with other readers who totally understand we might discuss the “author in question”s early writing that made them bestsellers but we know better than to actually take them or their actions in public seriously. I think it adds something to the typical humdrum book review when you can add a quote about TENT PEGS.
I have very few authors on my NBL, and most of them I haven’t read in years. Like Cassie Edwards (hey, I was 12! I didn’t know any better!) or Anne Rice. Or they are authors I used to adore, but the books now read like they were written on an assembly line by stoned ghostwriters instead of by the original author. This is why I quit buying Stephanie Laurens.
A few are on my buy-in-mass-market-paperback only. Like the one who was cold and dismissive when I met her at RWA. Most authors were very friendly but she wasn’t. I used to buy her in hardcover but decided she didn’t deserve that much of my money.
The rest of my authors I buy in a variety of formats. And I’ve discovered my library is a great place to get hardbacks at a reasonable price when they sell their leased books. I got Agnes and the Hitman for $3 when the paperback came out. Score!
Just my two cents. Your mileage may vary.
P.S. My spamword is ‘your28’. I sure wish I was! 🙂
Suz said:
I think it’s worthwhile to consider the role that technology plays in this equation. Before the internet, blogs, messageboards, websites etc. existed, the only reader/author interaction which was remotely feasible was for the reader to write a fan letter, take a class, or stand in line to get an autograph.
Authors are putting a lot more of themselves “out there” these days – perhaps at publisher/agent request – and while it might work as a PR… as we’ve seen from people’s stories above, such interactions can also backfire.
As someone who is increasingly uncomfortable with the blurring boundary between what’s public and what’s private, I often err on the side of preserving privacy. As an aspiring author, I anticipate that this attitude might cause me some problems in the future.