I just read this review of Breaking Dawn on Jezebel and have to note that even though I am half asleep, this paragraph rocked my world:
Breaking Dawn does seem to be promoting a fundamentally conservative ideology. But then so does The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, and they will pry that book from my cold, dead, godless fingers. I think ultimately we shouldn’t worry too much about what ideas young adult books promulgate. We should worry about whether the books themselves are awesome. Because awesomeness promotes thinking, and thinking promotes becoming the kind of adult we all want more of in the world: the kind who can understand the message of a book — or a movie, or a blog post, or a presidential candidate — and decide for herself whether she agrees.
If I had a penis, I’d have a boner right now, is all I’m sayin’.
I think this thread is almost dead (hey, rhyme!), but I do want to admit to something terrible: I WAS hugely influenced by books when I was young. I’m influenced by them now, today, too. The greatest influence was empathy. I remember reading Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry, and how much it influenced me. I remember reading The Great Gilly Hopkins, that changed me too. So did Where the Red Fern Grows. The Little House on the Prairie books hugely influenced me (but a lot of it confused me until I was older, honestly). I remember reading Stephen King novels, of all things, and how much they influenced me—people’s selfishness, paranoia, cruelty. All there. And romance novels also influenced me. I can’t tell you how many times I read A Rose in Winter when I was little. It definitely shaped me. Not just as a reader, but as a person relating to the rest of the world.
That might be embarrassing to admit to, but it’s also true. I’m not saying we should only read wholesome, harmless, educational books or anything. But books do influence people, sometimes greatly. That shouldn’t be dismissed.
But maybe nobody’s really saying that, on this thread anyhow. Really, I was just caught up thinking of all of the books that changed me as a person, for better or for worse. Awesome. Nice to think about.
snarkhunter
I saw the word “flowers” and read The Flame and the Flower, ‘cause I’d just mentioned it. While it doesn’t feature quite as much incest as I’ve hear about in Flowers in the Attic, it does have it’s share. The heroine escapes being raped by her lecherous and creepy relative only to be immediately mistaken for a prostitute and raped by the “hero.” Good times.
Just one more thing
I am of the opinion that he is initially attracted to her because of the scent of her blood, but falls in love with her after getting to know her. Physical attraction can be immediate, its not always something that comes later. In this case, its her scent along with her physical presentation that initially attracts Edward. The fact that he can’t simply read her mind like everyone else forces him to get to know her the old fashioned way: through simple conversation. Since he’s never had to be this intimate with anyone before, she becomes someone different and exciting. She is just as much a mystery to him as he is to her.
As much as I enjoy Edward, I would take Mr. Darcy in a heartbeat. Especially in the form of Colin Firth after jumping into a lake. Rowr!
And oh my god Flame and the Flower! I read that my sophomore year of high school and all my brain could come up with was WTF?! That series was non-stop damsel in distress.
Probs my last post, but anyway:
Alpha Lyra, you are spot-on. I can’t properly explain why Jane/Rochester turns me off but Edward/Bella squicks me out, but it doesn’t really matter – it’s just my opinion, and I don’t have to justify it.
You can argue with me all you like, but I still feel (it’s not some conscious kind of thing, I’m not actively trying to annoy Twilight fans) that Bella is obnoxious and judgmental. It irritates me when she gets sniffy about small-town life – yes, because I don’t like her worldview. When she says the list has Shakespeare and she’s read it, I assume the author is trying to say she’s read all of Shakespeare, possibly because all the text before it has convinced me to take everything in a bad light. Clearly I went to a defective (rural) high school. I just do not like her.
Chocolatepot, I wasn’t trying to make you like Bella or the book. Hate the book all you want! If Bella’s attitude puts you off, that’s fine.
I only protested b/c you held her up as unbelievable, when your examples were among the things that I found *most* believable about her, having had a very similar experience at that age. Your life experience doesn’t align with hers, and you dislike her. That’s fine. But that’s not what your original post said.
I have not defended Twilight here b/c I think it’s the greatest book of all time (as I said, I read it once, enjoyed it, but wasn’t passionate about it or anything). I am defending it only because people come up with these ideological readings to say it’s potentially harmful, and that just strikes me as patently ridiculous.
@Chocolatepot
Thanks for explaining! I went to a tiny high school (graduated with 67 people) but I had an amazing 12th grade English teacher.
That year we read Jane Eyre, Farewell to Arms, Brave New World, Canterbury Tales, Beowulf, Oedipus Rex, Macbeth, Wuthering Heights, and a few others.
@God
I agree. He was initially attracted to her only physically and did not like how it made him react (think Bela Lugosi and I vant to suck your blood!!!). But this relationship grew and changed. Unfortunately, if you only read Twilight, you only get a tiny portion of an ever-changing, ever-growing relationship.
I understand how this works, I do, really—but I, personally, cannot do the “well it was bad writing but I liked it anyway” thing. If the writing is bad, I don’t like it. This is integral to me. I never made it past Twilight’s intro in any significant way—I just didn’t care. It didn’t sing, it didn’t hook me, and it wasn’t fun. All of his perfection is summed up in “He’s hot!” (Come to think of it, specifically, the “sparkly marble” is too close to “white and delightsome” for me. It’s like, oh, okay, this is very nice, but I’m not supposed to be reading it, I’m eavesdropping on someone else’s party here. And cold marble stone is not cuddly. *brr*)
The COVERS though—man, talk about gorgeous.
Now, Buffy and Angel were mitigated by the fact that if need be, Buffy could kick his butt. 😉
JESUS CHRIST. Really???
Not that this thread really needs another comment, but here I am. The series was, indeed, total crack.
I had and have issues with some of it, for sure. Some of those issues were resolved in Eclipse (where Edward learns to let Bella make her own damn decisions) and Breaking Dawn (in which Bella kicks much ass).
Some things that have been raised as issues are, I think, founded in misunderstandings of the text – e.g. when a werewolf imprints, he doesn’t automatically want to jump her bones. He just gives her whatever she wants. If she never wants him sexually, then he wouldn’t mind – but that kind of love is hard to resist. It’s like his personality gets reformed at the whim of his beloved, which I would find creepy if the genders were reversed. That aside, I still have a problem with the tone of some of the work.
But, y’know, I don’t need to agree with authors (and thank heavens for that, becuase god only knows who I’d have to take off my shelves: T. S. Eliot, Ezra Pound, C. S. Lewis, Rudyard Kipling, Robertson Davies, anyone with racial & sexual opinions dating from before 1950, etc. etc. ETC.). For this particular series, it wasn’t a deal-breaker. Meyers is no-one’s Jane Austen, but she wrote a great series of Trashy Books, and I’m all for that. I laughed, I cried, I got attached to the characters. I’ll read ‘em again.
Yes, really. The reasoning is that Charlie doesn’t like Edward and wishes Bella would date Jacob, his best friend’s son, instead, but the end result is that he condones his own daughter’s sexual assault when he, a law enforcement official of all freaking people, should know better.
I had to stop reading the book for a few days after that, but eventually decided I might as well find out how it ended.
I couldn’t get to sleep last night because my brain insisted on trying to compose a reply, even though it knows full well I can never remember specifics of wording.
I find Bella to be unbelievable in general. Even her realistic reactions seem to me to be stuck on or done by a robot. “I am smart, therefore I reject the reading list.” “I am from the South, therefore I hate rain.” When I quoted quotes the other day, they were only meant to show how I found her obnoxious and judgmental, although my wording made it seem like I was going to show how she was poorly-constructed. I don’t think I can explain how I think she’s flat and personality-less, because to me everything in the book makes it seem like she doesn’t breathe. Every line seems like a brick with a note tied on (“Bella is smart”, “Bella is out of place”, “Bella is attractive”) being dropped on my head.
I also think there’s some kickass stuff in Breaking Dawn, at least from the little bits I’ve read. AFTER the demon baby is born, I must add.
Oh-My-Friggin-God
I-I…..I’m speachless. (Guess I’ll have to type instead huh?)
This has gone beyond a simple discussion about a book. My SANITY is at stake.
Here is a list of responses from dem bigguns (adults…*shudder*):
(lol….. I had to add this in. It has nothing to do with what I’m going to talk about, but it’s still funny.)
*breaths in deeply………and exhale*
Ok. Listen very VERY carefully. Please do not misconstrue my words. I mean NO HARM. I partly AGREE. Okay? But listen to me.
If your kid is doing drugs: INTERVENE.
If your kid is in an abuse relationship: INTERVENE.
You get the drift.
However, when it comes to things like normal hobbies: INTERVENE IS A NO-NO WORD.
LEAVE THE BOOKS ALONE. Please I BEG YOU. *sobs pathetically*
I’m a teenager and while I love my mum dearly, and often get into pointless debates about character motives at the ends of movies, and trade books back and forth, and discuss world politics (sarcastically on my part *grin*), if my mum came up to me and said something like:
“Hey. Do you have a moment? I noticed you were reading *enter title* and was thinking we could have a little chat about it.”
And then starts dropping hints about why she disaproves, and when I confront her about it she goes all: I’m not saying you shouldn’t read it, I just want you to be aware.
And then smiles at me all mothering like she’s done some big favour……..like she’s mother of the friggin year………
RAAAAAAAARGGGGRAAAARG!!!!!!!!!!
Trust me okay? Don’t do it unless your kid is under the age of 13 and/or an idiot.
Good intentions and a parents responsibility is great. Just remember that teenagers don’t need your opinion on every single friggin aspect of their lives.
There is a difference between discussing a book and a parent “informing” their child in the thinly disguised veil of a discussion. I know its a bit hard for parents to distinguish between, after all their freakish instincts are overwealming, but promise me you’ll TRY.
What was probably the most insulting…er… insult, was this last quote:
Sure. IF YOUR 12. After about the age of 13, it is NOT YOUR JOB. I’m sorry, but after that point in time there enters a few interesting points:
1) Your child will begin trying to create a life outside of your control. This is natural. Don’t freak out. It is a preperation for adulthood. You might be surprised to learn that all those arguments about teeny-tiny things actualy have a point.
2) As such a new search for identity takes place. Your kid does want to think for themselves. YOU TRYING TO SHAPE THAT HAPPENING IS KINDA LIKE FORCING YOUR OWN IDEAS ON THEM. Maybe not on purpose, but it’s bound to happen if you push.
3) Kids enter highschool. Ideas start getting a little bigger, teachers start requesting more from them intellectually. Also might explain why you and your kid don’t discuss things in detail as much as you used to. They are kinda sick of thinking when the school day is done.
4) Your kid all ready HAS the ability to break down a book. They get better at this as they get older. Babysteps, babysteps.
Ok?
This doesnt mean that you hold no sway over them. You absolutley do. Its just subtle now. Your parenting technique and the way you relate to your kid develops as they get older. They aren’t gonna be your obedient darling child forever. But they still love you, and want you to love them.
NOT LECTURE.
LOVE.
Kk, I’m done.
*cough*
Then again, I may be biased.
Okay, I know this discussion is really dead, but I just want to get something off of my chest:
To the commenters who say young women know Edward and Bella’s relationship is unhealthy and that Edward is not the “perfect” man, I’d have to disagree. I have seen so many young girls online who want their boyfriends to be like Edward and think of his and Bella’s relationship as a “fairy-tale romance.” And it’s not a small part of the fandom that thinks this. And don’t even get me started on the Twilight Moms.
The problem with Twilight isn’t really that Bella is weak, has her whole life revolve around her boyfriend and needs to be saved all the time, or even that Edward is emotionally abusive. It’s that Meyer romanticizes it and makes it seem like it’s the perfect life.