Yes, we know it’s a bit late to weigh in on the Open Source Boob Project. If you don’t know what it’s about, John Scalzi has a very concise summary and a more measured take on things than most anyone else I’ve read, and you can read the posts by the originator of the idea here, though you’ll need to scroll past a bunch of confusing apologies first.
The idea in and of itself, while ill-advised in some ways, didn’t strike me as especially controversial at first—hey, if somebody wants to opt-in for some boob groping at a science fiction convention, go team Boob Grope, and may the Force be with you. The ensuing comment wars and trainwreck, however, made this into a bona fide Internet Kerfuffle, and the more I thought about it, the more problematic the idea became. Check out the link round-up on Unfunny Business, which is incredibly comprehensive. I, personally, was e-mailed several links not just by a whole bunch of Smart Bitch readers, but several personal friends of mine who were all “Holy shit, dude, check this nuttiness out.” Apparently, when boob-groping by nerds comes up, I’m one of the first people to pop to mind. I would’ve written and responded to it faster, but finals, man, and the being eaten alive by my textbooks—it ain’t pretty. Then Jane of Dear Author and I got into an extended conversation about this, and I ended up writing pretty much everything I wanted to say as a consequence. The ensuing exchange is below, and we ended up going all over the place, from demystifying breasts to objectification to The Open Source Butt Project.
Keep a few things in mind:
1. Jane is strictly playing devil’s advocate. She doesn’t really believe most of the arguments she’s making to counter my points.
2. I’m not necessarily commenting on The Ferret’s original idea—I’m often talking about my reaction to the reactions to his idea, and sometimes, my reaction to the reactions to the reactions. Oh the delicious, crunchy meta-commentary of it all!
Jane: Let me preface that I am a product of a Methodist and then fundamentalist upbringing. The teaching is that my body is a temple to be used to worship God and nothing else. I’ve strayed from that belief quite a bit but I can’t help but wonder if 18 years of strong religious upbringing doesn’t play a part. Also, I have experienced quite a bit of sexual harassment during the course of my work so maybe I am uber sensitive, but this all seems so wrong to me.
Mostly I find the idea of strangers touching my breasts in a fondling manner a bit gross. But I did grope Candy. I don’t mind breasts and I don’t mind if girlfriends of mine touch my breasts but I find something awful about them being exposed to strangers, particularly male strangers who are getting aroused by the random grope.
Sarah: Oh yeah, that discussion made me ill.
It was me you groped, by the way. We have a photo.
I can see the argument for electing to participate but the concept is a big skin crawler to me.
Jane: OMG – it was you, Sarah? All this time I dreamed I had groped Candy. Will you please wear a button, Candy?
Shoot, we should wear big green t-shirts that says “Grope Me” on the front and “I’ll Kick Your Ass” on the back.
Candy: On one hand, I can see the good-natured intention behind it. And hey, if you’re the sort of person who’s OK with having your breasts groped by total strangers, have a motherfucking ball.
On the other hand, it frustrates me that the originator of this idea didn’t really get WHY it speaks volumes that an explicit opt-out button is necessary, and why being randomly propositioned can feel violative even if you have the green button on.
And people on all sides (not just the pro-Open Source Boobs faction) don’t seem to recognize that there’s a difference between “Hey, can I grope your bazongas?” vs. “Hello. I think you’re pretty. Would you like to get coffee some time?”
I also don’t like the heavy implication (not necessarily in The Ferret’s original post, but in the ensuing comments) that if you don’t like the idea of the Open Source Boob Project or if you don’t want to opt in, you’re some sort of anti-sex prude. My attitude towards my breasts and who gets to touch them is dependent on all sorts of things, from my mood to the context to the company I’m in. Some days and in some situations, I’m OK with strangers touching my breasts. Other times, only lovers and very good friends get the privilege. Sometimes I don’t want them to be touched at all. It has to do with my intimacy boundaries. That sometimes means that yes, I’m being prudish, but most of the time, it just means I don’t want the girls to be touched.
These two articles by The Ferret ultimately make me want to smack his head: http://theferrett.livejournal.com/534169.html and http://theferrett.livejournal.com/535109.html
Good commentary on those two articles here.
Placing a disproportionately large burden on the woman to say no, instead of on the man to not act like a jackass in the first place, seems to be a popular cultural attitude, and I find that fascinating—there seems to be a lot of anger towards women regarding the “no means no” movement, and it’s been co-opted in interesting new ways to reinforce the existing madonna/whore dichotomy.
Jane: I think what I struggle with is this:
a) a woman dresses provocatively to be attractive
b) this necessarily means she wants attention
c) aren’t we actually giving this woman what she wants by paying attention to her?
Do guys deserve to be cut a break on this? (Even beyond The Ferret’s complete idiotic explanation)
Candy: I’d argue that the leap between a) and b) is too big, and makes all sorts of unwarranted assumptions; it also blurs the difference between the various types of attention—under this rubric, anything between “Hi, I think your dress looks great on you” to “You have an amazing body, and the dress makes it look really sexy” to “Hi, can I grab your tits?” to “Hey, I want to fuck you” are treated equally. I’m not even going into the different types of gaze and touch that can accompany the words. These types of attention do not have parity, and some types of attention are violative.
This is not to say that some women don’t deliberately engage in cockteasing or solicit aggressive sexual attention. Context can add a lot—a swinger’s party is different from a dance club is different from a costume party at a friend’s. So can the body language of the person. The thing is, why should the assumption fall to the woman-want-sexual-attention default? Why is acting by the socially acceptable standards of the situation seen as somehow a burden by these guys? Because you can practically smell the resentment from the men who think this way.
Jane: Okay, let me play devil’s advocate (better than The Ferret, I hope). I’m just trying to see if there is a defensible position.
Men are trained to view women sexually in a certain matter. This is reinforced when women themselves dress in provocative manner such as really short skirts or see through tops. A project like Open Source allows men to actually deconstruct the myth of women as simply sexual creatures. By demystifying the breast, we take away the sexual implication of the breast and see it nothing more as another body part, much like an elbow or a hand.
Like Seinfeld once said, it is simply because the breast is so often hidden that it has such allure. In the past ages, ankles were deemed provocative. We are simply trying to help empower women, reduce sexualization between the sexes by normalizing body parts.
Candy: That would be an excellent premise, except the Open Source Boob Project is explicitly sexual by nature and aim. It actually encourages men to see women as sexual creatures—as sexual body parts, actually. A less kindly interpretation of the project basically tells people two things, depending on gender:
It tells guys, “Hey, you guys like tits, and you want to grab them. Here’s blanket permission to ask for a grope.”
It tells women, “Hey, guys like your tits, and they want to grab them. Deal with it.”
Even with a more charitable interpretation, I think it’s pretty clear that the aim is to normalize and make explicit a certain sort of sexualization and reductionism. I’d argue that we sexualize women in that way plenty as it is; we don’t necessarily need something like this.
As some commenters on theweaselking noted, the underlying premise is kind of insulting to both men AND women.
Here’s something to ponder:
I don’t like how one-sided the project is. I love the idea of demystifying the human body and allowing people to start separating nudity from sex, and separating sex from prurience. But why focus on women, and why breasts? Why no reciprocity? Critics of this idea were talking about the Open Source Ball Project, but I’d say that’s not truly analogous to breasts. Why not the Open Source Butt Project for both men and women? (Side note: Open Source Butt Project sounds like it’s about something else entirely. Woo damn.)
I don’t think the Open Source Boob Project is a bad idea, necessarily. I just think it’s a bad idea at this point in history. Once people have calmed down a little about our fiddly bits and have gotten their heads around sex and sexuality a bit more, I imagine it’d be less skeezy in tone and execution. But arguably, once that point in history has arrived, hopefully something like the Open Source Boob Project wouldn’t be necessary.
Jane: I would argue that if you are to demystify the human body, you don’t start with the collarbone or the elbow or the knee. You start with a part of the body that is deemed forbidden else the mystic element is not ever going to be ameliorated. We’ll be stuck groping the calloused elbow and any growth or understanding is halted halfway to the heart of the endeavor. (If you don’t mind the body metaphor). The breast is a protrudence and therefore because it exists away from the body it is less offensive to touch it as opposed to say a thigh part. A thigh is so close to the clitoris which is a sexual entity that even the most careful of touches might impinge upon someone’s sexual boundaries. The breast, though, is out there. It’s almost invading space of another’s. In the way that it is created, it virtually asks, as much as an inanimate object can, to be touched. Thus because the breast is a mystical part of the female body and because it is virtually existential, it is the right part with which to begin such a demystification product.
There is no corollary for men. In part because there is very little of the male body that is not out there. Men routinely walk around without shirts or shirts unbuttoned. Their legs, knees, ankles and feet are also regularly exposed. If there is any mystique to the male body it is centered around their sex organ. Further, I would argue that in our patriarchical society, the male sex organ has no mystique. It is discussed at great length in books, in popular culture. There are a host of jokes about it. Men are so intimate with their organ that it is frequently named, like a pet.
The problem with waiting until there is less hysteria about the woman’s body is a chicken/egg argument. How does one reduce hysteria without first de-sexualizing nudity? Nudity and sexuality are so intertwined at this point that even the casual brush of an arm across the breast is deemed a come-on or an assault. If there is no starting point at which we become more accepting of nudity and separating it from sexuality there will be no enlightenment. There will be no progress in the demystification of the woman’s body and thus, no progress in reducing objectification. If not now, when? If not the breast, what?
Candy: Actually, if you’re talking about demystifying the human body, you DO start with the collarbone, elbow and knee. That’s what the flappers did in the 20s. In fact, that’s how we’ve progressed—small and medium-sized steps followed by the occasional big lunge.
Female breasts are almost definitely going to be the next body part to be demystified—it already has been in huge parts of Europe. In America, public breastfeeding brought a lot of attention to this issue, as did Janet Jackson’s wardrobe malfunction.
I’m not arguing against demystifying the boob; I’m just saying the Open Source Boob Project is a pretty silly way to do it. Groping a boob is different from demystifying a breast as another body part to be accepted and loved. The Open Source Boob Project’s explicit aim and intent was sexual and reductionist. That tends to raise a lot of people’s hackles up in the wrong way. If you want to raise hackles the right way, try organizing a topless march or a topless bike ride—thumb your nose at nonsensical and unjust public obscenity laws that make it OK for men to be shirtless in public but not women. That sort of gesture doesn’t just avoid the peer pressures and weirdness of the Open Source Boob Project, it also pinpoints existing inequities instead of reinforcing them, and it’s not explicitly sexual in intent even as it brings attention to the inappropriate sexualization of a body part.
But maybe I’m just a bitch for civil disobedience.
And frankly, I think the Open Source Butt Project is a viable alternative to the Boob Project. Men and women can both participate and the butt is every bit as sexualized for men as it is women. Now if only we can get enough gay and bisexual men to attend these cons to make the table-turning worthwhile….
Jane:If the flappers began demystifying the body with collarbone, elbow and knee, we women in the 21st Century need to move beyond that. It is interesting that you returned to the statements and position of The Ferret. Would your response to the OSBP be different if it had not been presented in the sexualized manner it was?
Candy I’m not necessarily opposed to the Open Source Boob Project, per se. Mostly, I think it was poorly implemented in some ways, and I wish the organizers had been more honest about their intent—they tried hard to sell the “We want to demystify breasts! And be sex-positive! And be feminist! If you don’t support it, you must be some kind of sex-negative freak!” angle, but mostly, the vibe I got was “Holy shit, dudes! Boobs! We can haz them!” “Hey, let’s demystify the human body and reclaim sex as clean and healthy” seemed like more of a side-effect.
I was also exasperated by their inability to see how certain types of sexual attention and objectification, even without spilling over into insistence or harassment, can constitute a violation. I was also tired of how the other side—a very shrill feminist side—was attempting to insist that ALL types of unsolicited sexual attention are necessarily violative. Plenty of stupidity cakes to go around for everybuddy!
My Open Source Butt Project was suggested as a less gender-biased alternative to the Open Source Boob Project. It still suffers from many of the same issues (reductionism, objectification), but I think that by opening these gung-ho “sex positive” men to the same sort of potentially unwelcome and unwanted sexual attention, they’d finally get why this sort of idea skeeves some of us out thoroughly (which is why I think it’d work only if the gay/bi male population for that experiment were roughly equal to the straight male population, and that the men knew it).
Sarah: As I fall solidly under the IANAL camp, I only have the following rebuttal (HA! BUTT!)
Jane said: “I would argue that in our patriarchical society, the male sex organ has no mystique. It is discussed at great length in books, in popular culture. There are a host of jokes about it. Men are so intimate with their organ that it is frequently named, like a pet. “
I disagree. First, the male sex organ’s appearance in popular media has, until now, been the unofficial border for an NC-17/hard core rating. Playboy Channel? Boobs and shaved vaginas. Skinemax After Dark? Boobs. Maybe a stray vag. But the erect or even flaccid penis? Porn city, folks. The penis is objectified almost into celebrity status, in a way that boobs and vaginas are not. For something that’s “hanging out there,” the penis is often the last remaining sex organ hiding under the fig leaf when everyone else in the soft-core movie has played bad hands of strip poker.
Which is part of what makes the newest Apatow movie reviews so interesting: Apatow goes for full frontal male nudity as a humor device, shocking in it’s full flaccid humiliating glory in much the same way as “There’s Something About Mary” and the zipper scene. And that wasn’t even a full penis. That was just parts of one (painful parts, I might add).
Consider, also, the weight given to the “big reveal” when the hero finally drops trou in a romance novel sex scene – most authors take deliberate steps to acknowledge The Mighty Wang with as much aplomb as my GPS when it announces, “You have Arrived!” So there’s mighty flaw in your argument that the penis has no mystique. In my opinion, it has the most mystique of all the sex organs.
Yeah, that should have read “female body” instead of woman body…
That’s what I get for changing my thoughts mid-sentence.
You know, I think you could make an argument that the best way to de-mystify the female body is by making the male body LESS, not MORE potentially aggressive. Could that be done by making the groping something that happens to the men, thereby placing the women in a position of power and allowing them to possess that privilege? I dunno, but it seems to me that any way you slice this, it really just does come down to a bunch of guys wanting unmitigated permission and access to major boobage. And therefore it will never accomplish even a secondary effect of enabling mutual understanding between these men and women, promoting feminist principles of equal empowerment, or neutralizing the female body.
Although it is an enterprising and inexpensive alternative to hiring, you know, professional gropers (sorry, couldn’t resist that one ;D )
I’ve read Ferret’s post and updated post and contextual post and through John Scalzi’s post a Whatever and through a lot of the comments on both and then I found these WONDERFUL Swiftian responses (I want to post them before I forget):
The Open-Source Knuckle Sandwich Project: http://hahathor.livejournal.com/120502.html
and
Misia’s Modest Proposal:
http://misia.livejournal.com/1055120.html
Enjoy! You should also read the responses to their posts.
Now to read all ya’lls
*sigh* i formulated most of my response and then i went to classes before i could post and now everybody said it much better than me. can i just combine you all and say ditto? 🙂
well, here was one point i wanted to mention from my original (and long, you all were spared) post, in regard to Jane’s (devil’s advocate) quote:
No, they are not. They are an extension of my body. If someone is that close to me, my boobs are not invading their space, that person is invading mine (unless s/he was invited into it). The idea that a group of strangers feel the right to come to me and ask to feel a body part (especially a sexualized body part), makes me extremely uncomfortable and, most likely (since it is a sexualized body part), fearful. (There is a huge amount of sexualized violence in this society, and having one or a GROUP of strangers, especially males, come up ask about my breasts would make me very afraid of what would happen if I said yes or no. I do not know these people. I do not know what is going through their minds. If I say no will they go away, or push this further?). The way I understand this, people are approached about this project to decide to wear a red/green button, so no matter what I will be approached simply because I am there and have boobs.
Suze: yeah, that does strike me as missing the point of Take Back the Night. one of the ones i went to had men in the grouping at the end (when you share your individual story) and i know (talks i had with ladies afterwards) a lot of women who wanted to share didn’t go up because there were men there, and others were less graphic. no longer safe space.
robin: i personally wouldn’t feel comfortable asking to grope men either. that seems sleazy/objectifying (like the boob project) to them rather than “empowering” for either one of us.
now to look at knuckle sandwich link…
ok, the nice guy links and Rebecca’s links are excellent. thank you.
snarkhunter, you articulated in one comment what I took several comments and most of a day to attempt to say on a couple of other blogs. Sadly, I don’t think I ever did quite achieve fully making my point – it seemed to be ever elusive and out of reach. There’s a U2 lyric I haven’t been able to stop thinking about in relation to this situation “the mysterious distance between a man and a woman”. I think that within this “mysterious distance” there’s a territory where we can achieve a certain level of communication between the sexes, but I don’t know that we can achieve a true understanding of the other point of view. Because of the different assumptions of entitlements and restrictions that every single person brings to every single situation, one side never can truly understand the other.
In the midst of this, I had a discussion with a man about the fact that even if men might think a male’s chest is equivalent in meaning to a woman’s, in reality – from the woman’s point of view – this is not the case. I finally came to the conclusion that there is no body part of equivalent meaning on the male body. This inequality may very well be a result of our cultural conditioning and woe unto our Puritan roots, but whatever the reason behind this fact, it remains a fact that needs to be recognized and respected. Understanding how deep the divide is between the different meanings that men and women assign to the same region on the body was both an “a-ha!” and a “well, duh!” kind of moment and was a real jumping off point for me intellectually.
But even with that jumping off, and even with the time that’s passed since I first started thinking about this, I still haven’t come to any definitive reaction or conclusion. I don’t know that I *can* come to such a place; I see good points coming from several disparate places. I ‘get’ that some women would be threatened by an OSBM situation, that some would be amused, that some would have no problem participating and would have no negative reaction to it, that some would find the whole thing juvenile and treat it with disdain or disbelief, and so on, and I think each of these reactions is perfectly valid. I also ‘get’ that some men truly don’t believe they have any power to wield over women and thus are utterly mystified by the notion that many women feel they do have such power. It took my husband awhile to learn that he can be the nicest guy in the world, but the mere fact that he’s a man means many women would feel fear were they suddenly thrown into some ‘dark parking lot, late at night’ scenario together. He’s learned over the course of time to do what he can to ensure he doesn’t unwittingly put some woman in a situation where she would feel fear; I imagine it has also to take other men lots of time (with lots of help from women) for that same light bulb to go off.
And now I’ve upheld tradition with my supersized comment (would you like fries with that?) …my work here is done.
Um, people, say what you will about what boobs are or are not—mature human females are the only animal that has breasts when not actively lactating. They have them (according to Desmond Morris and others experts in anthopology) because humans walk on two legs, not four. For most mammals, the direct female sexual signal is the backside—which for most mammals is right at the males’ eye level. Because walking around bent at the waist was not doing anything good for early man’s lower back, women were forced to evolve a more or less eye level sexual signal on our chests to take the place of buttocks.
In other words, boobs are a butt you wear on your chest. You wear them to signal to males that you are sexually mature and therefore potential mate material.
Despite their primary function of lactation, boobs are sexual.
And no matter to what lofty goals they attribute their cause, I suspect none of those geeks running the OSBP would have it any other way.
Oh, and the OSKSP? I laughed so hard, I had an asthma attack.
Snarkhunter, thanks, that was really interesting.
The entire concept is just dorky.
No, I’m not talking about nerds or geeks. I count myself a proud member of both groups. I’m talking about dorks: otherwise intelligent people whose socialization is, for whatever reason, severely retarded. The idea is dorky because, like other weird things dorks do, it spends an inordinate amount of energy addressing a problem that doesn’t exist. Unless you are a poorly socialized dork, that is.
There is absolutely nothing mysterious about the naked female. The fact that men are fascinated by breasts does not make them mysterious. Even before the advent of the Internet, getting a gander at a naked female breast was exactly as difficult as walking to the corner store for a gallon of milk. You go in, grab the milk, grab a Playboy (or Hustler, or Penthouse or any one of a dozen alternatives) and boom, you’re set. For the male, the opportunity to see naked female parts was limited only by his willingness to publicly express an interest. And pay for the privilege. Female nudity is not rare in mainstream American cinema. Full frontal male nudity? The chances of seeing that in a mainstream American film were vanishingly small until perhaps a decade ago. Even now it’s relatively rare. And now, with the Internet and the advent of free Internet porn, naked bodies of either gender are incredibly easy to access. You can look at whatever you want in the privacy of your home. There is no mystery. None. Male behavior—that’s often baffling. The male anatomy—not so much.
What’s that you say? Looking at a naked female body is not the same as encountering one up close and personal? Well, work on your social skills, boys, and maybe that would happen more often for you. And it might help if you stop confusing women with Martians, or Venusians, or whatever the hell you think we are. Don’t attempt to put the onus on women to “demystify” our bodies for men. If you want to learn to appreciate the human body in a non-sexual way then for God’s sake take a life drawing class, or a photography class where they work on photographing nudes. Welcome to the human race, where we all acknowledge the goofiness of our dangly bits and move the hell on.
On the other hand, as long as female breasts are an erogenous zone, they’re gonna be off limits to touch unless the situation warrants it. End of story. Sex can not be demystified.
By the way, my brain is also an erogenous zone. You wanna touch that?
The Adult Video Performers have a convention in Vegas every year. That seems like it would be a more appropriate convention for their, uh, project.
kristen: that is really interesting. and explains why they look the same when you squish them together (minus nipples…unless your butt is having issues). 🙂
-megalith
if you like slam poetry at all, this reminded me of your last sentence (and it just gets better as he goes on):
Thanks, Orangehands. That was a nice link. I used to work with a guy, a professional poet, who did poetry slams all the time. Other than that, my exposure to it is pretty limited. I do love Ani DiFranco though, and her songs remind me a lot of slam poetry.
Uh, back on topic. I do have a lot of sympathy for the argument that Snarkhunter forwarded regarding these guys feeling sexually and socially disenfranchised. But I still feel that, whatever caused the deficits initially, at some point we have to take responsibility for our own emotional and social education, as part of becoming a whole and healthy person.
And that isn’t accomplished by expecting others to cross clear social boundaries simply for their convenience.
Eh, I have a feeling my ex-educator geek is showing.
I don’t have anything to contribute, but just wanted to say that this is a fascinating, balanced, insightful debate here.
Oh hell. This is absurd. You know how some people believe that men shouldn’t have a say in reproductive rights issues, because frankly, it ain’t their problem to fix? Well, the impression I get from this is: some guys were pondering the issue of the mystification of the female body, prurient social rules regarding sexuality, and open communication between the sexes, and the answer they came up with was… groping people’s tits. For real? You know what? Not your problem. Clearly. And not cuz they’re men. Because they are clearly the kind of men who not only don’t understand women, but who rarely even interact with them. Ever.
Also, if ever there was a genre that needed more women involved, it is sci fi. The fact that I now think if I go to a sci fi convention, men who look like The Ferret will be asking to grab my breasts? Not good PR, jackasses.
I totally agree with Liz. All the people who were involved in the “Project” should just come out as swingers already, and get over themselves. And attend the kind of events where they can demystify all the body parts they want.
If you want to do that kind of thing at Sexxx0rCon, great, go to it. But normalising behaviour with a sexual connotation in public at events that are not normally overtly sexual opens up a big can of worms – I realised that hadn’t happened at that particular con, but that rah rah rah “everyone should do this” post was attempting something more.
@Miri – the default behaviour for people with no buttons was to assume “No”. Of course, this probably often equated to, “Oh, haven’t you heard of our Boob Project? You should totally participate! When? When? When?”
Nice breaking down of the geekboy syndrome, Candy:
1. Oh woez, I iz geekboy and none of the hot chix want me!
2. Those hos should want me! I am a dewdy geek MAYUN with l33t skills. And I’m nice, honest, and my Entitlement is not like those other guys’.
party15 – mine’s the one with the 15 chix fondling each others boobs (?)
It’s cute how nerds are smart enough to use a lot of high-minded rhetoric about demystifying the body and being sex-positive as an excuse to grab tit. It’s less cute that so many don’t seem to be smart enough to see why it’s a terrible idea on so many counts, the internet is still buzzing while it counts them.
I do realize some folks don’t disagree with the premise in theory (or as it was practiced), but when I first read it, I assumed even the premise had to be a joke. Because DUDE.
The problem is breasts are not just any old body part, and they never will be. You know why? Men don’t have them. Just like exposing your ‘nether regions’ would ever be acceptable. When one sex has that part, and the other doesn’t, the sexy thoughts begin. And, no, every breast does not turn a man’s mind to sex, but we aren’t talking about groping grandmas…these are most likely young-ish women. And the intent is to get some kind of ‘education’ about women and boobs…which screams SEX to me.
I think it’s a very sleazy idea. To wear a button means you had to contemplate the notion in the first place…and what does it say about you if you wear the ‘no’ button? Or the ‘yes’ for that matter? It’s sort of that mentality that those who say ‘no’ are one type of person and those who say ‘yes’ are another. Why should women be categorized in such a black and white way?
I guess I’m kind of tired of being told that nudity is okay and America is so uptight about nudity. Like something is wrong with me if I don’t want nudity to be more acceptable. I *do* have problems with topless beaches, but why do I have to feel as if I am behind the times or old-fashioned by thinking that way? I feel certain body parts should be covered. To me, it is a sense of self-pride and modesty….and what is wrong with that?
Sorry for the tirade, but it just hits a nerve with me…
I think conflating nudity with touching is a fallacy, though. I mean, it’s really not the same thing. While I don’t care to go to a nude beach, I have no problem with their existence, or with women breastfeeding in public, or hanging out nekkid in their backyards.
I do have a serious problem with the idea that being comfortable with your body means allowing other people to get comfortable with it through touching. We might be a society hung up on nudity, but I don’t think it’s any more acceptable to go around being grabby in Europe than it is here. (Although from what I’ve heard about men in some European countries, they would probably be all about this project. Or maybe they already live it.)
That’s a good point snarkhunter. I think one can be comfortable with their body AND comfortable with being touched by other people. And one can be comfortable with their body and NOT comfortable with being touched by other people. The assumption should not be made that being NOT being comfortable with being touched equals not being comfortable with your body.
On a more random tangent, I frequently see women whose boobs I would love to touch. I think there might be something wrong with me…
My sweetheart geeky boyfriend has informed me that the ultimate woman—the fantasy—for a good deal of geek guys is the woman who is a 10 but believes she’s a 1. (Not him, or we wouldn’t be dating.)
Seems to me that the OSBP would be very good at finding them.
(haha, spaminator: like25. No, exactly 25.)
Here everyone is having this intelligent, thoughtful discussion on “to grope or not to grope”, demystifying breasts, empowerment, etc… and it happens on a day when I’m in a wacky mood and all I can think of to say is, “Tit for Tat”.
If I’m ever at a convention and a man walks up and asks to grope my breast, I know I’ll ask if I can grab his penis.
Then I’ll want him to define grope. Because if he even considers twisting me like a door knob, I’ll grab like he’s a stuck jar lid that I need to open.
Perhaps there should be a third set of buttons that read: I’ll consider it and get back to you.
Why do I think I should have stayed out of this discussion?
Mary Stella.
Thank you.
Now I have to go change my undersilkies.
Snarkhunter,
I really enjoyed your comments, but want to know which one totally sent me over the edge? The fact that you’d dress up like Aeryn Sun at a con. LOVE friggin Aeryn Sun.
Shall I comment on the boobage? Okay, quickly. At first glance—and I only just heard about this controversy—wearing buttons and touching boobs sounded too much like creating permission to subvert social norms where none existed before and then, via a healthy dose of rubbish, getting people to believe that the permission was their idea in the first place or at the very least a good one.
Again, this just my first pass at this issue. Truthfully, I’m not sure that I’ll go back, read all threads and get all frothy about it. Folks here have been very erudite and I think have touched on all the relevant points.
…wearing buttons and touching boobs sounded too much like creating permission to subvert social norms where none existed before and then, via a healthy dose of rubbish, getting people to believe that the granting of the permission was their idea in the first place or at the very least a good one.
I think that makes more sense.
It says a lot about a person when their fantasy is someone with low self esteem. That’s sad.
You know, this whole OSBP kerfluffle is making me glad that I don’t ever have to speak to anyone who has played D&D;or gone to a con ever again.
Shaunee—Aeryn is my HERO. I love her. I loved her from the moment she pinned Crichton to the floor of their shared cell on Moya. I don’t know if I would actually have the guts to pull off the leather pants, but oh, would I ever love to try.
Aeryn Sun (and Farscape) FTW! (God, I miss that show.)
Okay, I did not read all the comments, so if somebody else already said this, I apologize, but here goes:
How is it demystifying the breast by asking to touch it? The only reason they WANT to touch it is BECAUSE it is sexual. I think all his excuses after the fact were simply that – excuses. Really, he just wanted to touch boobs that he normally wouldn’t get to touch and for no other reason than because he finds them sexually stimulating. Does he honestly expect us to believe that he was aiming to demystify because if he touches enough of them they will no longer stimulate? What a crock of shit. My husband has been touching the same pair of breasts for over 10 years now and he still gets aroused, so I don’t see how touching new and exotic breasts would be non-stimulating. If the routine can still be exciting, the new would seem even more exciting by my logic. Also, I think the whole situation was probably stimulating because it was new and different and public and they knew it would be taboo. I do believe they knew it would be taboo because they were not at some Real Sex convention where everyone present was there for the same purpose – they knew there would be opposition regardless of the women that wore green buttons. No one should have had to wear a red one saying “NO” – if you did not readily agree to being groped by wearing a green one, then you shouldn’t have to be bothered by it at all. I don’t care if some woman agrees and wants to have her boobs grabbed by strangers, that is her perogative. Plus, you know everyone is going to have different reactions to the same thing…my mother would have been disgusted and offended if someone had asked her, whereas I probably would have just said “no thanks” and been on my way. I just think the whole thing was immature, done in a most improper forum, and when they were called to the carpet on it, then they made the pretense of it having more meaning than it actually did…it was just about the boobs.
BTW – Balless Jeans – Hilarious! Hope that never becomes a trend like the baggy jeans did!!!
That’s not just the standard for geek dudes—it’s the standard for desirable women everywhere, and especially in romance novels. How many gorgeous heroines are there in Romancelandia who were led to believe they were mannish/too fat/too skinny/unbecoming/unattractive/too dark/too freckled, etc.? Or are just completely unaware of their charms and the effect of said charms on men? Answer: MOST OF THEM. It’s rare to encounter a heroine who’s confident in her body and sexual attractiveness, though the tides are finally turning in this regard.
Confidence (and I’m not speaking of arrogance, just simple confidence) is rare among real-life women, too. A couple of my friends are drop-dead gorgeous women (I’m talking former beauty queens and models), and let me tell you, they tend to be the ones with the most fucked-up self-images of all. I’m friends with relatively few women who have engaged in bulimic or anorexic behaviors, but most of them (and myself) think about their bodies in substantially the same ways as a bulimic or an anorexic. The cultural messages we receive regarding our bodies are unbelievably fucked-up.
I’m also not sure I buy the arguments that breasts are somehow inherently and essentially special and sexual, either because of their clear difference from male body parts or because of the sensations they’re capable of feeling or whatever. Sexualization of breasts is strongly cultural. There are a good number of African and Asian tribes where toplessness is the standard for both males and females, and friends of mine who have grown up in communes with strong nudist tendencies attest to the fact that exposure to nekkid parts as a matter of daily life means you don’t associate nakedness with sex or sexuality—you associate sexual behaviors with sex or sexuality.
Also, thanks to all the people who have pointed out the difference between being comfortable with their bodies and sexuality vs. being comfortable with exposing naked body parts in public vs. being comfortable with being touched by strangers in public. There are important differences, and goes to the heart of why I think things like the Naked Bike Ride or public breastfeeding are more effective tools to demystify and normalize sexualized body parts than the Open Source Boob Project.
Basically, do not tell me that you want to touch me for some lofty artistic reason and that it’s not at all about sex and objectification. An object d’art is still an object.
Snarkhunter,
I’m trying not to start a juvenile conversation completely inappropriate to the topic at hand, but tell me truthfully, isn’t D’argo, um, delicious? And, to briefly show the twistedness (the fact that Salad Fingers cracks me up should tell you everything you need to know about me) of my nature, is it just me or is Scorpius pyschotically attractive?
One last word (from me, anyway) on boobage. My older nephew was six when my younger nephew was born. Older nephew, who weaned himself at 9 months or so, became fascinated by breastfeeding when he watched his little cousin doing it.
I mentioned to my brother (planned last child, who breast fed until he can remember doing it) that older nephew was all fascinated by breastfeeding again, and brother said, “Again? No, STILL. That’s not something you ever get over.”
I realize that I’m coming late to this particular party, but I’ve wanted to add my two cents all day and this is my first opportunity.
Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps it would demystify them for future generations, but I doubt it would substantially change the visceral response of the average heterosexual adult male raised in our culture. As another poster pointed out, a man can see (and touch) the same set of breasts for years and still be just as happy to see them as he was the first time. It may be cultural conditioning, but it doesn’t change the fact that the average heterosexual male is conditioned that way.
There is also the fact that even if we all awoke tomorrow in a new, more enlightened culture that considered the sight of a bare-chested woman no more provocative than a bare-chested man, I would still not want anyone groping mine. I have personal space issues at the best of times and I don’t even like people I don’t know standing too close to me. Yes, this is my issue and I’m not saying that I’d have some emotional breakdown from being asked if someone could grope me, but I shouldn’t have to tell complete strangers that, “No, you can’t touch me”. Hell, if I don’t even want to be pressured to hug someone I barely know (long story involving a much too touchy-feely fellowship moment in a church service I was tricked into attending), I certainly don’t want to be pressured into allowing someone to grope me or being made to feel like a sexually-disfunctional prude if I don’t. And I shouldn’t have to feel all defensive and all, “Nuh-uh, I am so NOT a prude!!” because I simply don’t want someone I don’t know making me feel like a walking life-support system for my breasts.
If you resent it, perhaps you’re misdirecting your resentment. When I was in Spain, the beach at Lloret del Mar was topless. On the beach and in the ocean, I didn’t have a problem going topless. At the hotel pool, I felt uncomfortable and did not go topless. Why? Because there were several US Army guys at the hotel. Guys that had actually spent a good deal of money to go all the way to Spain to see naked breasts. They hooted. They drooled. They took pictures of the British girls that sunbathed topless around the pool. Or, more accurately, they took pictures of the British girls’ breasts. When I was in an environment where it wasn’t considered purient and sexual, topless was no problem for me. When I and my breasts became an object of their gaze, I had a problem. I would posit that I was not “less comfortable with my body” and, instead, that I was “less comfortable” being objectified, measured visually, and compared in ways that were both overt (ie, loud comments, whistles or lack there of) and covert (surreptuous pictures, nudges to their buddies, etc.). Perhaps you should resent the ones that makes us aware of how we do and do not measure up on a daily basis instead of those of us who feel the weight of it and would prefer not to present ourselves for any more comparison that we have to.
So I told the husband I wanted his opinion on something, and I explained the kertuffle as dispassionately as possible and his response about Ferret was: “He’s stupid, he’s a douchebag and quite possibly an asshole. Why does anyone want to demystify breasts? The guy is a loser, because that’s a surreptitious way to get a woman to let him touch her breasts.”
What an awesome discussion! Someone asked Jane on Dear Author if they could touch her breasts (a lady, joking) and her response was hilarious. Does anyone else remember this? It wasn’t too long ago. Maybe it was an inside Boob Project joke and I didn’t really get it until now.
The secret bad girl inside me wonders what it would be like to be groped by a stranger. In reality, my breasts are off-limits to my husband most of the time! After two children and about four years of breastfeeding, I don’t want to be suckled as a part of sexual play. It just feels weird now. OMG this is TMI for sure.
I don’t think I would want to grab some random guy’s butt either, even if I wasn’t married. Look at it, sure. But I don’t like the idea of making another person feel uncomfortable. Even if they didn’t mind, I would worry that they did, and that would ruin it for me. I wonder if the girls who participated in this felt as “uplifted” as the men afterwards.
Kerry said on…
05.02.08 at 08:18 AM |
You know, this whole OSBP kerfluffle is making me glad that I don’t ever have to speak to anyone who has played D&D;or gone to a con ever again.
Kerry—may I suggest not overgeneralizing the con demographic or the roleplayer demographic quite so much, particularly not in a thread where one of the digressions is between people who would go to cons? It doesn’t discourage the ones you don’t want to have to deal with, and alienates those whom you probably would enjoy a decent conversation with, which only perpetuates the vicious cycle here.
As for the Project itself—while I considered it a bad idea from its inception, there has been one good thing about it. The upsurge of eloquent blog entries interpreting what just happened and where the sides missed each other, and the subject of privilege and what to do about, and the conversations that have come from it have been absolutely astounding. I particularly recommend synecdochic’s riff on the misappropriation of “sex-positive” here http://synecdochic.livejournal.com/213567.html . And the system of mutual protection at cons and in general that sprung up (synecdochic links it at the top of the page). And…. there are far too many excellent ones out there for me to begin to list.
I haven’t read all the links or comments. I can’t waste that many years of my life. But I did wonder whether the overweight girls/women were approached, or the flat-chested ones were. And since I am on the far side of 50, have silver hair and am both overweight and not so boobishly endowed, AND go to fantasy/SF cons, I wonder just how this aspect was handled at this con…
As far as the nudity issue—I don’t have a problem with breastfeeding in public, nor with the nudity of others in their back yards or on the designated beach, or whatever—but I keep thinking of the sunburn issue. Granted, not everyone has my pasty white Celtic-German skin that will burn in 15 minutes in the Texas sun, but my girls Will Never be exposed to the sun. Ever. Even with the upgraded sunscreens available these days. I can’t help reacting with OUCH!!!
as Kerry said:
You know, this whole OSBP kerfluffle is making me glad that I don’t ever have to speak to anyone who has played D&D;or gone to a con ever again.
As a con-goer, as someone who helps run these types of conventions, and as someone who is married to a former D&D;player, but still friends with several thousand of current players, I am highly offended by this comment.
I know people who went to Penguincon, abd I know people who work TheFerret. Many of the people were just as offended by the OSBP as we are.
Talk about bigotry and prejudice against all con-goers and D&D;players based on one event.
I spent 10 years with a guy who did all sort of roleplaying games, cons and the like and his many friends who were into the same things. Heck, I’ve done them myself. We met at a large midwestern college filled with gamers. I’m pretty sure I’m only 3 degrees of separation from The Ferret IRL if I got in touch with the right people.
Believe me, this opinion comes from first hand experience with the subculture, and I stand by it. It’s a particular sort of bullshit that I don’t like. If you do, godspeed.