Feminism and Masculinity

The discussion of alpha romance heroes in marriage has taken a rather interesting turn into “feminism is a dirty word” territory, and my comment became so unwieldy, I decided it needed to become its own post. Such are the privileges of being a blog owner.

So, some disclaimers:

1. I’m a feminist, and I’m proud of the fact.

2. It bugs me when people treat the word “feminist” as an insult—especially when these are women who enjoy the benefits of what previous feminists have fought for, such as the right to vote, the right to initiate the dissolution of marriages, the freedom to work outside the home without being viewed as some sort of freak of nature, or the freedom to enjoy love and sex on their own terms.

3. It also bugs me when people use “radical man-hating separatist” synonymously with “feminist.” It’s akin to conflating “Christian” with “homophobic asshole,” or “Muslim” with “suicide bomber.” Sure, these splinter factions exist, but for the love of Baby Ganesh, these are huge, heterogenous movements, with significant doctrinal and philosophical differences between the many different sects, and the people you’re talking about constitute a minority. Stop defining something solely by its distasteful extremes. It does no honor to the people being discussed, AND it makes you look like an ignorant douchebag.

4. I love men. Oh boy, do I ever. Y’all don’t need any more TMI than I’ve dished out already over the past couple of years on this site, so I’m afraid I’m just going to have to leave it at that. I love men. Yesss I do, precious.

5. I love all sorts of dudes, but the ones I’m most attracted to, sexually and emotionally, are slim, androgynous and geeky to the point of dorkiness. To be frank: I love the girly men. (The same applies to the women I’m most attracted to, as well: I love the tomboyish girls with dyke-tastic haircuts and a swagger. I think androgyny and genderfuck are hot. And I can totally respect and understand that many people don’t. Chacun à son goût.)

I’m going to quote a particular commenter in particular extensively in this post. I won’t refer to her by name; those of you who’ve followed the discussion will recognize who I’m quoting anyway, and I’m honestly not attempting to kick her into the ground, because she’s being disagreed with vigorously as it is, and I can tell she’s feeling attacked; it’s just that her arguments seem representative a certain type of discourse that bugs the hell out off me, and I want to poke at these sorts of arguments in general, not necessarily at her in particular. So apologies for the lack of attribution.

So, here’s the bit of commentary that inspired all this blathering in the first place:

What concerns me is that the ‘ideal’ world that some women want would have boys for men or at least those with teeny weenies, no chest hair, no muscles and itty itty schlongs that would never mess up or bother a delicate female HooHoo.  And men who aren’t men, just beaten down creatures allowed to live in the presence of the Princesses.

And sex would be this vapid, super quiet thing with the woman totally in control at all times, because if the man dares get passionate, she’s being victimized.

(And in a different a little ways down…)

Even deeper, it’s now bad for a romance hero to rescue the heroine.  How dare he be protective, or the least bit dominant!  How dare he be stronger.  How dare he be her superior occasionally!  How dare he be better at anything than the heroine!  It’s bad if he’s truly male, because that’s suddenly ‘alpha’, which is why I find myself shaking my head when what I consider just plain ‘ole men labled “alphas”. That is what I mean by boys versus men.

Holy flaming metrosexuals, Batman. Where do I even begin?

First of all, I’m fascinated by what we’re being presented with as the image of what constitutes REAL manhood. Skinniness seems to be a no-no. Also, lack of body hair. Also, sexual submission. And penis size was mentioned twice—which, in my opinion, presents an eerily accurate reflection of our cultural perceptions of where manhood lies.

I have to admit that I don’t buy into this manly man malarkey, and that men who don’t conform are somehow less or diminished. I’d almost say something like “Look, they have a Y chromosome and a cock and balls; as far as I’m concerned, that’s all a dude needs to get into the Boys’ Club,” but then I realized that my transgender friends would pummel me into the ground for displaying that much essentialist bias. Gender identity is tricky and fascinating, and I’m not going to propose to figure it out on a fuckin’ blog, of all places, but I just want us to ponder why we so strongly associate certain traits with manhood, and why they are desirable in and of themselves, and why we hold them up as some sort of requirement for membership.

See, for me, what are typically seen as unmanly traits, such as swishiness, a willingness to play with gender identity markers such as make-up and dresses, or a tendency for displaying affection to other male friends with culturally uncomfortable physical gestures (in America, that usually constitutes close embraces, holding hands and kissing) are signs of something else entirely. I tend to read those men as being so secure in their masculinity that they have no problems flouting these conventions; they have absolutely nothing to prove, so why not act as or wear what they wish, or actively poke at cultural perceptions of masculinity and femininity? Many of these guys are as puzzled and amused as I am by the use of words like “fag” or “girl” as pejoratives. Even if people don’t find androgyny to be a turn-on, why is it so discomfiting—even repulsive—to so many? Why do people care, even, when health isn’t at stake?

And most interesting of all is the conflation of certain effeminate traits—lack of body hair, slimness—with sexual submission and/or lack of sexual vigor. What does this say about the way we see femininity and feminine sexuality, and how we view sexual submission as somehow being less than sexual domination?

(OK, so here’s a LITTLE bit of useless TMI: I’ve slept with more than my fair share of slim, clean-cut boys, and lemme tell you, vigor is not even remotely an issue, especially the ones who are athletic in ways that place a lot of emphasis on flexibility and movement—you know, the runners, the dancers, the swimmers, the ones who play a lot of soccer or tennis, or do a lot of yoga. Our vision of athleticism has been colored greatly by football, weight-lifting and wrestling, I think, where bulk has come to dominate. Why is bulk considered manly, by the way? If Ability To Fuck Yo Shit up is considered a manly trait, I imagine people who practice the martial arts would be tops, and they tend to be slim and mobile.)

And really, is lack of hero domination a problem in romance novels? I mean, seriously? I see a trending away from extreme alphas in some sub-genres, but even then, romance heroes are still plenty assertive. Even Demon Angel, which was the last romance novel I read with an unabashedly good-boy hero had him pinning the heroine against a closet door and fucking her six ways to Sunday.

So, readers, I want your thoughts on masculinity and femininity. Let’s talk about feminism, and where it’s taken us, and why it’s a dirty word. Why you think girly men are hot. Why you think girly men are repulsive. And something I don’t have time to go into right now, but that I’d love to hash out as well: gender roles and acceptable flaws and virtues for heroes and heroines in romance novels.

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Random Musings

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  1. Arethusa says:

    I’ve noticed this odd trend. Candy and/or Sarah want to have a discussion based on a point someone said on this site or elsewhere. The response either would like to make is too long, so they do a post and make it available for comment so that the discussion can continue. They’re careful to note that it is not a personal attack, neither makes a personal attack, they focus on the issues. And yet, by the sheer fact of making it available for comment the gesture is seen as “as a way for Candy to humiliate a decenter in the ranks”.

    The main issue here seems to be that, because the Bitches generally attract (at least vocally) like-minded readers, that this is part of the motivation. (I conclude this because there is nothing in the actual post that suggest otherwise. I suppose such accusers may know the women better than I, or are reading some subtext that I’m missing.) The fact that the disagreement is typically more nuanced—for example here we have the SAHMs and Working Mothers who at times feel attacked, others who resent the fact that to be feminist the automatic rejoinder is “and I love meeeen!” (count me in that group) and so on—never hurts that overall point.

    I do not know if its my long sojourn in academia but to me this position often smacks of a timidity in going against the grain, as one may see it, in an environment that’s hardly hostile. This isn’t the Bill O’Reilly show, folks. No one’s going to scream in your face and tell you to shut up. These persons usually remark on the sheer number of people who disagree with them. I can’t help but one wonder why they should give a fuck? Can they seriously argue that this Smart Bitches comment section are filled with jeering hooligans? The internet being one it is emotions do flare up but, by and large, the comments are usually measured.

    What am I missing here?

    I’ll say something straight out: I find the stance of women who ascribe to all general feminist ideals—equality of the sexes, choice, blah blah—but reject the label of feminism as rather silly who have more or less bought into the negative connotations the term has garnered over the last decade or so. I’m not going to run after you and put a label on your forehead, I just think it’s silly. It does occur to me that they may be rejecting certain positions of various movements—and it is a fractured group—which makes sense to me. But it seems odd to abandon the label. Whatever, you have reasons.

    It’s too bad the self-indentified feminists have SO TAKEN OVER THE COMMENTS SECTION that most are reduced to sending e-mails and nodding among themselves. Because it would be great if one could get a dialogue going (unless pronouncing your opinion silly is uber-offensive, in some way).

    If someone said they believed in the Christian God and accepted Jesus as the Saviour of the World, I’d think they were Christian, no matter how much they’d like to invent a different word to describe themselves (or wish to avoid any labelling all together). Sometimes a dictionary is all I got, ya know?

  2. Tracy says:

    I’m so not going to get into the debate about who is right/wrong or who said what b/c well, essentially I’m a wuss.  Yep.

    But I will say this:

    Kalen: “Anyone who blasted you for being a SAHM, when it was your CHOICE to be such, simply missed the fucking boat on what it means to be a feminist.”

    I agree with this wholeheartedly. More in a minute.

    SB Sarah: “Funny thing is, I distinctly remember that part of the feminist movement (oh, that word) was to create a situation wherein I had a choice: I could work or I could stay home, depending on what worked for me personally. That is sadly lost when stay at home moms tell me I’m abandoning my child and working out of house moms tell the stay at home moms they’ve surrendered and set the feminist movement back 30 years.”

    It can go both ways.  SAHM’s can be criticized for staying at home (by working moms). Working mom’s can be criticized for working (by SAHM’s).  Annoys me to death.

    I am a SAHM. I don’t bash anyone else for their choices. I can only make the choice that I feel is best for MY family.  I don’t know what is best for SB Sarah’s family.  I know staying home is best for mine. SB Sarah works so that must be best for her family.  We’ve both exercised our right to CHOOSE!!

    How am I setting the feminist movement back 30 years by staying home? Wasn’t the point that I could have a choice?  Working outside the home is not the only choice.

    And I surely cannot tell working mothers they are abandoning their children. That is just ridiculous!

    Wow.

    I wish we could all just respect each other’s choices, as we are allowed to make them.

    Now on to the next subject LOL

    Regarding the kind of man I am attracted to?  I don’t have a “type”.  I’ve been attracted to all kinds of men. I happened to marry a hairy, non-primping man (he’s clean and hygienic, but he doesn’t use ‘products’ etc).  But I have dated men that took more time to get ready than me LOL

    Everyone’s attractions are different. Which is great b/c if we were all attracted to the big burly type who would marry the nerdy guys?  That’s what is so fun about us humans~we are all so different!!

    HA!  My word verification word is “never”  as in NEVER say you won’t marry a certain type. I said I’d never marry an overly hairy guy ROFLOL~See above!!

  3. ginmar says:

    There’s a difference between saying, “I’m an Xtian and I love Jesus,” and saying, “I’m an Xtian and you’re a dirty heathen who killed Christ.” I really don’t care what somebody believes. It’s when they start putting words in my mouth that I start getting really pissed.

  4. Arethusa says:

    I meant “The fact that the *agreement* is typically more nuanced*. I can’t type.

  5. Arethusa says:

    As for the other quesiton, I’m a devout lover of metrosexuals—a group described by a “trendy” name, perhaps, but who have existed since time began. I take a pass on all overly-muscled/skinny/fat/undernourished, smelly men who can’t dress and who use their gender as an excuse to meet the bare level of society’s hygiene standards.

    🙂

  6. Okay, I’m a little frustrated with Najida getting her head bit off because there is a valid point in what she is saying.

    There are many women out there who, for whatever reasons, do not want to be associated as feminists.  During the different waves of feminism, there have been radical women who held firm hard lines that the radical right would have looked on in awe and wonder.  Alice Paul, one of my favorite sufferagists, was hella radical and did not suffer those who disagreed with her kindly.  She made a lot of enemies (men and women…including the president at the time and one of the other leading sufferagists of the day, Elizabeth Cady Stanton).

    The same happened in the second wave.  There were women, yes, who got things done, but also demanded a hard line of making the personal political.  Sometimes in a way that many, many women felt uncomfortable with.  As feminists we need to look at the mistakes that were made and make strides in helping people understand what the next wave of feminism might look like because it looks a lot different than did the prior waves.

    However, and this is something that needs to be said, there is also a very real piece, Najida, which is grating to most feminists in what you’ve said.  That is the stereotype that all feminists are one way and all want things one particular way.  The types of comments that have been made (and they are not all by Najida) are those that have been made historically to discredit women’s voices.  We have been called “women who are more like men” (i.e. lesbians), and been warned that our reproductive organs might attrophy if we got education or went out into the workplace.  In the same vein, feminists are accused of being ugly, not shaving, hating men.  Again, all of this seems to come back to assuming that feminists are some sort of butch lesbian and this does not reflect the thoughtful and caring lives that most feminists live. 

    My version of feminism is one that seeks to give choice to both men and women.  I get to choose what I want in a relationship and not have my father force his choice on me.  Speaking of which, my father was not so lucky.  He grew up in a time before feminism took hold.  When my sister was born, he wanted to be a stay-at-home dad, but it was frowned on by society to have a man stay at home while his wife earned a wage.  So he went to work while my mother had to take time off work, something she hated.  Father’s, regardless of their body type or level of testosterone, should have the right to choose whether to stay home or not in the same way that women should.  These are the choices that dominate my version of feminism.

    And interestingly, my word verification is “men53.”  I wonder, if the little word verification looks for common patterns in the comments from which to draw it’s words.

  7. Kaite says:

    I don’t know that I consider myself a feminist, because I think all labels are inherently limiting, although I will admit to the one of “human”, and on most days I find myself attracted to men. Rather like a chunk of iron to an electromagnet. 😉 And there is one thing I find more attractive than anything I’ve ever seen—he must have balls.

    Let me clarify: I’m not talking physical balls, because what if I find a transsexual male that turns me on? His would be implants—I think they use silicone. Actually, I mean metaphorical balls. Most of the men who are attracted to me are wanting a mommy or a nanny, someone to clean up after them, make decisions for them and give them sex like a mom nurses their kid. Frankly, it leaves me cold. Your underwear is dirty? Wash it. You’re hungry? Eat something. You want to go out with your guy friends to a titty bar? Look, don’t touch and have fun. You want something from me? Ask. I’ll ask back and respect your decisions, all I want is respect.

    My point is, a guy can be buff and brawny, have a ten inch schlong, but if he looks at me for guidance when someone asks him what he thinks, he’s no man. He can be a scrawny, short, shrivelled up husk of a human being, packing a measly two inches, but if he can stand up for himself and respect people who do the same, I’m going to want to bang him like a screen door in a stiff breeze.

    God, there’s something about a guy with enough self-respect to stand up for himself that just makes me hot. Confidence is just as good!

  8. Dragonette says:

    yowzuh. i knew there was a reason i avoided the previous thread. :dodging verbal projectiles:

  9. Estelle Chauvelin says:

    Case in point: Just saw Sir Ian McKellen drop his kit on stage and the man is a freaken tripod!

    In King Lear, right?  Damn.  Didn’t get to see that in Dance with Death.  Unfortunately the US stint for this one falls when I can’t possibly get to it.  Not that I’m any less eager to see him when he’s got his clothes on, but drop something like that into a post and I want visual confirmation.

    P.S.  I hate men to the same degree that I hate women.  I also love men about the same amount as I love women, with the slight difference that I’m not sexually attracted to any women, but I am to an extremely small number of men.  Meaning that I can say with equal truth that I hate people and love people, and their sex doesn’t have much to do with it.  We’re pretty amazing as a species both in terms of our potential accomplishments and our ability to be idiots- and to absolutely decide one way or the other is going to require that I’m talking about a specific person.

    But, I think that we all deserve an equal chance either to take advantage of that potential or to make idiots out of ourselves- and since being female is one of the factors (along with race, religion, sexual orientation, or any number of things- including being male, which would mean being in the minority in my profession) that shouldn’t unbalance that chance, that would make me a feminist, among other things.

  10. Oops, I should add that I don’t want to imply that butch lesbians are not caring and thoughtful because many are, but I think that the popular idea of what a butch lesbian is is probably off base to many butches, anyway.

  11. kis says:

    I seem to have started something, and for that I am sorry. In the earlier post’s comments, I stated that I’m not a feminist. My feelings about that have not changed, even after reading the comments of many decent, well-spoken women who choose the label for themselves. That does not mean that I am ungrateful for the gains that feminists have made for women, and continue to make, even today. I have had occasion to take advantage of my country’s generous maternity leave legislation, susidized daycare, birth control, and sexual harassment laws, and I am thankful that I live in a society that allows for such things. But in Canada, with the exception of some immigrant communities, women’s equality has largely reached the “hearts and minds” stage of reform. Remedies are readily available to those who feel their rights are being trampled. Advocating for women is just not as big an issue for me as cultural, religious and racial equality, or social issues like drug addiction, mental illness and homelessness.

    I think that feminists have had a hard time facing the fact that much of the progress they feel they have not made is a matter of personal choice. i.e. That a man who took a year off of work when he had a child might not find his way to the board of directors, either. We make sacrifices for our families or our careers, because the truth is, we can’t have it all. And nothing burns my ass more than the assumption that if a woman puts her career before her family she’s got to be some kind of soulless, bitch, where if a man does the same thing, he’s just a go-getter.

    If I had slap a sticker on my views, I would call myself a gender parallelist. Men and women are equal, but different. When it comes to making body parts fit together, that’s all to the good.

    As to who I find attractive, let me say that out of Viggo Mortensen, Orlando Bloom or Cate Blanchett, I would be hard-pressed to decide who I would rather sleep with. Maybe all three. Jude Law? Hawt. Stephen Chow? Hawt. Paul Bettany. Mmmm. But I have a bit of a thing for Russell Crow, too. And Angelina Jolie. Pits shaved or not, doesn’t much matter to me, and the men can all wear pink shirts if they like.

  12. ginmar says:

    Kis, are you aware that in the US womens’ rights have been under constant attack since women first gained the rights to abortion and birth control? Women are being denied birth control and emergency contraception to this day. It happened to a friend of mine and when she got an abortion she got death threats. I get death threats because I say that this is wrong. Women aren’t anywhere near equal and our rights are slipping.

  13. Arethusa says:

    Who bit Najida’s head off for not calling herself a feminist? (sincere question)

    “As feminists we need to look at the mistakes that were made and make strides in helping people understand what the next wave of feminism might look like because it looks a lot different than did the prior waves.”

    I guess so. I have a lot friends who identify themselves as Christians but who aren’t church-going, missionary, super-duper active types. I sort of look at feminism in the same way, and I hold that, in general, women who agree with the basic premise of feminism but don’t identify themselves as such do so because of ignorant negative stereotypes carted around. At the same time I acknowledge people like Kaite who avoid it for other reasons. She doesn’t like labels. *shrugs* Not much you can argue with there.

    I think that, to fit into character, we should be hoisting her on some kind of disciplinary device before we kick out of the “ranks”? This is, in fact, what this discussion is for, yes? Flush out the dissidents! Where’s my uniform….

  14. Pai says:

    I’m a feminist. I love androgynous prettyboys. I love geeky guys. I love men who are aggressive and extroverted, but who also know that those two qualities don’t trump behaving like a decent human being at the same time.

    I don’t see how any of that is paradoxic, in the end, isn’t a ‘decent human being’ regardless of gender, what everyone sees as their ideal mate?

  15. joymg says:

    I usually only lurk but I actually have the free time to comment, so here’s my couple pennies.

    I like my “romance book” men tall with lots of muscle.  I’m a big girl (size and height) and feeling taller, bigger, stronger than a hero just doesn’t ring my bell, and for me to like a romance the hero’s gotta ring that bell.  Plenty of people disagree but since it’s my $7.99 (or more) I’m paying out, I get to choose what the hero looks like and how he acts. 

    Now in real life, when it comes to men it’s all about how you treat me and not how you look.  So if you ask me nicely to talk/dance/have a drink, lets talk/dance/drink; If you act like a jerk when propositioning me, I’m gonna give you the cold shoulder (whether you’re your built like Sir Ian McKellen or like “The Rock”).  And when it comes to “intimate endeavors”, I’ve learned that lots of times the outside package is no indication of what the result will be. 

    In regards to the “feminist” posts – I’m might be a product of my generation but I don’t label myself a feminist.  However I’m in my early 30’s, not married, no children, make good money, work successfully in a field that historically was dominated by men, own my own home, wear a bra/makeup/pretty clothes (touch my shoes and it will get ugly), don’t have a steady boyfriend, date plenty of nice guys (and had run-ins with not so nice guys).  If I ever meet a guy who I think I would like to spend my life with, I’ll do that (in a marriage or just living together for a couple of decades).  If I ever decide that I’m unselfish enough to have kids, I’ll have them. 
    All things considered, I really like my life.  I do acknowledge that much of what I have is due to the women who went before me.  But I still don’t label myself a feminist.  I label myself “just me”.

  16. Arethusa says:

    Kis! You seem to be a dissident too. Before I humiliate you into retreat however…

    “I think that feminists have had a hard time facing the fact that much of the progress they feel they have not made is a matter of personal choice. i.e. That a man who took a year off of work when he had a child might not find his way to the board of directors, either. We make sacrifices for our families or our careers, because the truth is, we can’t have it all.”

    Is that the “fault” of the women though or the work place who has no mechanism in place to allow women to enter back into the bustle of the workplace? If more men, out of choice, or need, or sense of obligiation, had to take that year off would there be a bigger pushes for change to be made to accomodate them? Can anyone deny that the idea of Stay-at-home-Dads is one that is not respected, or considered manly in general, and that may have something to do with it as well?

    I’m Canadian too and I have to say that there as far as equal rights go, if one were to include birth control and the like, things are not quite so rosy for women here, specifically in the Atlantic provinces.

    But your point about having more immediate social concerns is reasonable.

  17. I’m going to take ginmar’s words out of context, because they sum up something for me:

    It’s when they start putting words in my mouth that I start getting really pissed.

    This is why I won’t start conversations or posts with, “I’m a feminist.”  Well, that means different things to different people, and it’s a wonderful way to get slapped with misconceptions.  Yeah, I believe in equality and choice for women, in the same freedoms that men enjoy, etc, but as soon as you say the word “feminist,” tempers flare and misunderstandings happen because, as someone else said, it’s a heterogeneous movement.  The word that means “ball-busting bitch” to one person means “embracing all things womanly” to another and “butch manchick” to someone else.  And labeling yourself invites someone to put words in your mouth, in their opinion.

    It sucks, and it’s neither fair nor right, but I don’t think you can deny that the first connotation of “feminist” to a majority of people is “man-hater.”  I don’t look for another term to call it, but I don’t shout “I’M A FEMINIST!” from the rooftops either.  I’d rather skip the label and have a conversation.

    To me, actions have always spoken louder than any one word.  Explaining why you hold your beliefs, and following that up with concrete action (like VOTING, PEOPLE, God the voter turnout in the US is absolutely abysmal), will always be more important to me than having a certain word associated with my name.  Is that chicken?  Maybe.  But I find that spending a few minutes in reasoned conversation and explanation avoids misunderstandings that can arise when one word is used to attempt to convey a belief.

  18. Oh, and Kalen?  I will never look at Gandalf the same way again.  Wizard’s staff, indeed!

  19. ginmar says:

    So if a majority of the population of their heads up their ases, you’ll endorse that vote? Like, for example, the use of the ‘n’ word to refer to African Americans? Because at one point that was considered acceptable and accurate. Calling feminists man haters and backing it up with death threats and rape threats and DDOS attacks—as has been happening this week—-sure as hell doesn’t feel different. I’m Najida would accuse me of Godwin’s law, but any good long look at the US shows that anything short of killing women is okay.

  20. Anya Bast says:

    I have noticed the feminism is a “Bad Thing” deal too. Frankly, I don’t get why it’s a dirty word. We owe the feminism movement so much.

    I think we forget how much.

    As far as “manly men”. I’m attracted to them…as long as they’re intelligent. Speaking a couple languages helps. My husband is a manly man, (an “alpha,” even), but it was his personality that got me. (Speaking three languages helped too. That, uhm, *really* turns my crank. Really.)

    The intelligence factors trumps “manliness” for me (manliness being defined here as a hairy chest and big biceps). It trumps looks…and I MEAN that, not just saying it. It trumps everything for me.

    Honestly, I have a geek fetish. My biggest crush is Seth Lloyd. I’ve had it ever since I heard him interviewed on NPR’s Science Friday over a year ago (uhm, April, 2006, I believe. Great interview. Made my knees weak).

    He’s a physicist and wrote the book Programming the Universe: A Quantum Computer Scientist Takes on the Cosmos. He even speaks French. *swoon*

    When I delve into the realm of sexual fantasy, my own and other women’s, there’s where the assertive alpha male resides. In my day-to-day life I may not want him. In the bed of my fantasy life, well…yes, I do. I want him dominant, too. *shiver*

    I write sexual fantasy, and those are the men I write in my books. I tend not write the *uber* alpha, the one who drifts too far into asshole territory. I also try to show that my heroine doesn’t *need* the hero to be happy or to live her life, but that her life is enriched by his presence and his love.

    Yes, I write them dominant in bed. Sexual fantasy, again. It’s not always P.C.

    Now, I do consider myself a feminist. Like I said, I don’t know why it’s become a dirty word. But I reserve the right to my natural attractions and to my sexual fantasies, no matter how *not* politically correct they may be.

    In my opinion, it’s the feminists who helped give me the ability to fantasize about that dominant alpha male. They helped make it possible for me to make my living as an author. Hell, they made it possible to me to be able to read the books I choose to read!

    Attraction, gosh…let’s not box it up, shall we? Let’s just let it be what it is.

  21. So if a majority of the population of their heads up their ases, you’ll endorse that vote? Like, for example, the use of the ‘n’ word to refer to African Americans?

    This is just about the opposite of what I said.  Please reread my comment.

  22. ginmar says:

    Sorry, looks like you’re for passivity in the face of being called a man hater. I don’t see what there needs to be a conversation about. That word stops it right in its tracks. There’s no place for that word, period. Until men who hate women get called woman-haters and it means something I refuse to accept the use of that word as anything but assheaded. Rush Limbaugh and guys like him promoted that view of feminists and every passive response to it just encourages people to keep using it.

  23. Holly Black says:

    As a long time lurker, I wanted to say that I’m attracted androgyny and pretty boys and genderfuck too and would love to find more romances with heroes that play with our ideas of masculinity and alpha-dom.  To me, there’s nothing timid or quiet or vapid about that.

    I consider myself a feminist, but am sure that my attraction has more to do with my personal kinks than my politics.

  24. Ginmar, I don’t get your problem with my post, because I said that it’s WRONG and BAD that many people equate feminism with man-hater, and that’s why I feel that more conversation—aka, educating those who have that wrong, bad opinion—is more important than expecting a one-word label to cover all necessary explanation.

    I can’t understand why opening lines of communication is a bad thing.  Maybe you can clarify why you feel this way, so I can better answer you.

  25. Rinda says:

    Seems to me the problem here is the different opinions on the definition of feminism.  To me, it’s just believing in social, political and economical equality.  I don’t like labels either—blogged about that myself.  But I think of feminism as a way of thought, instead of a label.

    Whether a person calls herself a feminist or not—even here in the comments—most seem to want the same thing. 

    Seems some are thinking of feminists as furious he-shes.  Have to say, I’ve never seen that myself.  Or they see them as angry, picketing he-shes. 

    Well, I don’t go out and picket—okay, I have marched for gay rights, I’ll admit it

    —but while I don’t go around screaming for equality, I do feel strongly that I’m every bit as important as the man next to me.  Or the woman.  And a lot of the men I know feel that way, too. 

    Yes, men and women are different and that’s a good thing.  No, it’s a great thing.  (smiling wickedly here)  I find the physical, mental and emotional differences in men just fascinating.  Men are great!  Call me naive, but I’d never equated feminist with man-hating.  That’s just weird. 

    But it does hurt to find yourself in a room full of men, being told that you aren’t worth the same money because you’re a woman.  That experience alone made me start thinking of myself as a feminist.  Look up the definition.  It doesn’t say Cro-Magnon he-shes with hairy pits.  Or picketing man-haters.  It says some blah or another about equal rights.

    Nah,  I’m not militant.  Not always.  But, I can, on occasion, be a smart-ass about such things.

    I was at a family gathering once and was asked to repair my dad’s computer.  I was dealing with a toddler at the same time.  Three hours later and more than a little annoyed that my curious, 13 month-old son hadn’t been entertained, I go into the main part of the house only to find that the men had left the kitchen clean-up to me as well.  What did I say?

    “Why didn’t you guys clean up the kitchen?”  I then, smacked my forehead.  “Oh, that’s right!  How could I forget?  You have dicks!” 

    My husband thought it was funny.  He also got up to help me clean.  And he apologized. 🙂

  26. Sorry, looks like you’re for passivity in the face of being called a man hater.

    Since I’m not sure you did reread my post, Ginmar, here’s where I call for people to take action.  Not sure where you see me calling for passivity.

    Explaining why you hold your beliefs, and following that up with concrete action (like VOTING, PEOPLE, God the voter turnout in the US is absolutely abysmal), will always be more important to me than having a certain word associated with my name.

  27. ginmar says:

    Words mean things. Names mean things. You think feminists haven’t been doing what you said—-following theory up with action? I’m not willing to cede ‘feminist’ in the dictionary to synonym for man hater ever. I’m not willing to discuss it, either. Man hater’s not a valid synonym.

  28. Well, it’s clear that the problem is not with my beliefs or my actions, but with my reluctance to use a frequently-misunderstood label.  That’s fine.  To each her own!  After all, isn’t that what equality is all about?

  29. What bothers me most about the quoted commentary is the assumption that if a man is mostly hairless, not particularly muscular, and has a small penis he’s somehow not a real man.

    I’m female.  I’m taller than average.  I have short hair.  I have particularly small breasts.  If you want to say I don’t conform to your ideal standards of femininity, that’s fine.  If you want to say you can’t see me as a romance heroine, that’s also fine.  But to imply I’m not a ‘real woman’ would be unkind, offensive—and biologically inaccurate.

    Men—and their penises—come in all sizes.  If some of them aren’t to your taste, that’s okay.  If some of them aren’t your conception of an ideal romance hero, again, that’s okay.  But to say ‘…at least those with teeny weenies, no chest hair, no muscles and itty itty schlongs that would never mess up or bother a delicate female HooHoo.  And men who aren’t men…’. 

    No.  You can’t define people out of their own gender by their genitals or muscles size.

    And even if we’re talking just ‘ideal romantic fantasy hero’, a huge penis or biceps or chest rug of hair does not a HEA make.  Or an orgasm.

    Immi
    (yes, feminist)

  30. ginmar says:

    You think the term ‘man hater’ should have a place in the debate? You’re wrong, and that’s that. Not until people call certain men woman-haters.

  31. Rachel says:

    Wow, I go out for one fucking morning, look what is going on around here! I have read this thread with fascination.

    I feel that our whole American culture is engaged in a huge debate about gender and what constitutes gender-appropriate behavior. We, as a nation and also in our various schismatic internal sects, are contemplating big, big social changes! (ex: gay clergy—okay or not? Depends what flavor of goy you are!) This is very exciting stuff and of course is naturally very scary. It would not be scary only if it were not important.

    Change is really frightening, and not all people will be ready for change at the same rate. Some of us (hi ginmar, I’m impressed with your forthrightness) have been radicalized by our experiences and so are way ahead of the curve—others need a lot more time to think about it.

    You may be interested to think about this debate from an different POV: lately I’ve been quite obsessed with Mystery and his Mystery Method. He’s a master pick-up artist! He’s devoted his life to picking up women! He advises men how to attract women, and frankly, he seems to have actually kinda become one. Visit my blog to see my whole thesis:

    http://malkatsheva.livejournal.com/11275.html

    You can even flame me if you like.

    My point is: men are just as busy changing their gender roles all around as we women are. I read in the Washington Post today that Utilikilts sold 40,000 units last year!

    http://www.utilikilts.com/

    If that isn’t a sign of something weird in Man-land, I don’t know what is.

    So, whatever your position on this continuing wave of change we’re all surfing on together—well, be cool. Our men, girly or other, are surfing along with us and we’ll all get wherever the hell we’re going more or less together.

    Even you, Teddy Pig! I like hairy, sweaty guys too. You rock.

  32. snarkhunter says:

    I think I might’ve been the first poster to say “I’m a feminist and I love men” in response to the discussion in the previous thread.

    To be honest? Even as I typed that, I cringed, b/c it’s not really true, but I didn’t want to damage my ethos by posting the truth. And the truth? I love some men. My dad. My brother. A few close friends and cousins.

    But men as a whole make me nervous. It takes me longer to trust most men than to trust most women. I didn’t want to say that in the previous discussion, b/c I did not want to be the example of a paranoid feminist who thinks that all women are victims. B/c I don’t think that, and while I may have Issues, I try not to be paranoid.

    As for the other question…lately, it’s been hard for me to pinpoint what I find hot in a guy. Though I agree with Candy—there can be something damned sexy about androgyny. Generally speaking, however, I am not too picky about shape.

    I’m a relatively small woman, and I don’t tend to be attracted to the brawny types b/c I’d rather not be squashed. But for me it’s really about the personality. Geeky, funny, open-minded—you give me that in a guy, and the physical traits are going to fall by the wayside.

    Assuming, of course, we are speaking of a man who embraces the value of hygiene. No idea why I seem to attract the ones who don’t…

  33. SB Sarah says:

    OK: not that I have a problem with folks attributing things to me that Candy wrote and vice versa, I just want to be clear : Candy wrote this post. Credit where credit due and all.

    Now: Najida said but trust me when I say, NO one is going to post against the group here. Count on it. Not when it comes to this topic.

    Bummer. Seriously. Bummer. Because I was really curious about Najida’s point of view and anyone else who felt the same. My problem earlier in the other thread was that the tone of the argument was heading straight for “Fight!” and away from “heated discussion.”

    Spinsterwitch said There are many women out there who, for whatever reasons, do not want to be associated as feminists. During the different waves of feminism, there have been radical women who held firm hard lines that the radical right would have looked on in awe and wonder. Alice Paul, one of my favorite
    sufferagists, was hella radical and did not suffer those who disagreed with
    her kindly.

    Amen to that. The word “feminism” has been quite a hot button for many reasons, and there are a good number of women who are uncomfortable with the word. Hell, it’s even hard to define because if you ask two women what it means you might get four definitions.

    This goes back to my personal theory of how change happens: you can storm the castle and knock it down, or you can sneak in the back and make slower changes from within. Sometimes one is required; sometimes the other method works better.

    Making changes in how women are treated professionally, judicially, and personally is a huge issue, but as Rinda and I and others have said, sometimes part of the problem is how women treat other women! I would never ever harsh on another mom for electing to stay home with her kids, if that’s what works for her.

    That goes here, too. I’m really interested in what women who aren’t comfortable with the label of “feminist” have to say. I don’t intend to silence what y’all have to say, and I’d like to hear more, please.

  34. Miranda says:

    I’m a feminist, and I don’t love men either…no real surprise from people who read the other thread. Not men as a class, anyway. I love my husband, who is 6’2” and who knits much better than me, which is handy because he can rescue my dropped stitches. There. That’s a fine example of a hero displaying his superiority. He could probably bead better than me too, the bounder.

    I’m attracted to personalities. Physical appearance doesn’t do much for me…other than maybe John Barrowman. I like PEOPLE who are considerate, intelligent, funny, sarcastic, and brave.

    Why is feminism a dirty word? Because people accept soundbites from Jerry Falwell or Rush Limbaugh, instead of reading some feminist literature or listening to feminists.

    As for “feminism has come to mean the antithesis of all things traditionally feminine” I think that’s a great thing because tradition is set by societal expectations of gender, and I’m all for throwing that shit out.

    From birth, baby girls and boys are socialized into rigid gender norms from their pink and blue blankets to their allowed toys. I make jewelry, and I’ve heard a frightening number of women say that their husbands would NEVER allow their sons to make jewelery even if the kids want to. And the wives seem to think this is just fine.

    Women say the wear makeup because they like to, and I’ll accept that, but I certainly heard that as soon as you were old enough (16) you could wear makeup, like it was big treat, and in fact that it was weird to NOT want to wear makeup. Along with being weird to not want marriage and children. How much is your true want, and how much is what you’ve been told that you by God BETTER want? I’ve gotten much less pressure, although lots more actual debate from feminists than from non.

    Has feminism changed my perceptions? Oh, yeah. Sometimes uncomfortably. I used to have more of a libertarian, “I got mine, why can’t others” mindset, but it’s changed as I’ve read, and observed. I used to wonder why domestic violence victims didn’t ‘just leave’ or why silly women got drunk at parties, when everyone KNEW what happened. And then I realized that those thoughts took away from wondering why men battered women or raped them at parties, away from the thoughts of the ones committing the crimes.

    And that’s my story52 which is my verification word.

  35. snarkhunter says:

    Women say the wear makeup because they like to, and I’ll accept that, but I certainly heard that as soon as you were old enough (16) you could wear makeup, like it was big treat, and in fact that it was weird to NOT want to wear makeup.

    I think I exist in a weird bubble, b/c most of my friends in high school, college, and now grad school did not/do not care for makeup and never have. I was allowed to wear makeup at 12, and I experimented a little, but quickly decided it took too much time, and until I was halfway through college, basically never wore it.

    But I agree with your basic point, Miranda. There is a very decided gendering of children that starts even before they’re born (if the parents choose to find out the gender). And, lately, there’s this push towards sexualizing even tiny girls—I went shopping for my 18-month-old niece last Christmas, and what did I find in the baby shelf at Pennys? A teddy bear in fake leather pants and a belly shirt, with DIVA scrawled across the shirt. B/c that’s what a baby needs to play with, right there.

    Meanwhile, my prenatal nephew will be given tractors and trucks as soon as he emerges from the womb.

    The mentality of frat boys and sorority girls doesn’t emerge out of nowhere at 16 or 18. It’s being programmed from day one.

    …I’ve gone off topic again.

  36. Miranda says:

    I don’t know how old you are, but I’ll be 43 in a couple of months, so the makeup issue may be more generation oriented. I’ve noticed less of an obsession with makeup on younger women. It was a HUGE deal when I was in high school, and an even larger one with my mother. Mom wore eyeshadow when they biopsied her liver.

    And this is all about masculinity and femininity and what it means.

  37. Ginmar, I still don’t think you’ve really read my original post.  I’m fairly sure this is going to fall on deaf ears too, but since hope springs eternal, I’ll try one more time.

    You think the term ‘man hater’ should have a place in the debate? You’re wrong, and that’s that. Not until people call certain men woman-haters.

    Sigh.  Funny thing for someone who just posted that she hates someone putting words in her mouth.  Here’s what I said:

    It sucks, and it’s neither fair nor right, but I don’t think you can deny that the first connotation of “feminist” to a majority of people is “man-hater.”

    Find me somewhere in that sentence where I say that’s a good thing, that it’s correct, or that I think it’s fabulous and a perfect synonym.  Show me where I approve or even give a hint of a suggestion that it’s anything other than deplorable.

    You’ve misread my post, and you’re answering something you think I might have said, and seem unwilling to read back and find out exactly what I said.  I can’t understand this. 

    Anyway, back to my point, missed though it may be.  I think that the term feminist is often misunderstood.  I think that’s a sad thing.  I also think that the way to reclaim the label is through conversation, education, and action.  I do not think that anger and attacks have ever reclaimed a term in a positive way.  No, I don’t start conversations with, “I’m a feminist.”  Yes, I do start conversations, discussing equal wages for equal work and other feminist issues, and actively work for causes that I believe in.  No, I never said feminists didn’t do this.  Yes, I asked members of the Bitchery to sack up and get involved.

    Hate me if you like, blast me if you must, but don’t put words in my mouth.  If you want to continue replying to things I didn’t say, please, feel free, but don’t expect me to re-re-re-restate myself further.  If you’d like to talk about things I *did* say, I’m open to talking with you.

  38. Najida says:

    SB,
    I love ya,
    But I’ll never ever say the F word again here.  Nope, never never never.

    I’m very sorry for everyone I’ve offended, I’m sorry I worded somethings clumsily and was unintentionally insulting. 

    But the beating was sufficient and I’ve learned my lesson….

    thankyouvery much…….

  39. snarkhunter says:

    Miranda—I’m 28. And I think you’re absolutely right about it being generational. My mother (who’s 48) NEVER leaves the house without makeup. She is horrified to this day by the idea that I might do so. (Case in point—when I was about nine, she, my brother, and I were going somewhere, and she glanced in the rearview mirror. She scared the living hell out of my brother and me when she suddenly shrieked, “MY EYES!!” Snarkbro and I, of course, thought she’d gone blind or something, and, well, she was driving. No. Turns out, she’d forgotten her mascara that morning, and she’d just noticed.)

    I think that the term feminist is often misunderstood.  I think that’s a sad thing.  I also think that the way to reclaim the label is through conversation, education, and action.

    This past spring, I asked my students whether or not Jane Eyre was a feminist novel. One student said, “Well, I think feminism is about women being above men, and this book seems like it’s more about equality.”

    What do you say in that moment? After a moment of internal ::facepalm::, I informed my poor little college senior that most feminists, myself included, would be pretty upset by such an assessment of their beliefs. And I tried to show throughout the class that my feminism meant I was committed to equality for everyone…and I was not invested in elevating women above men.

  40. Angel says:

    One of Jo Beverly’s historicals had a “girly man” hero who was hawt.  When it came time to fool the bad guys he cross dressed as a girl ‘cause he told the heroine he could pull it off better than she could—she was too butch and needed to dress as a man.  I loved the concept and I loved how it all worked out.

    Darlene, I’m trying to find this book by Google, but if you happen to remember the title, I’d LOVE to have it. 🙂 My email’s whiterabbitalice0(at)hotmail(dot)com.

    As for girly men… I love genderfuck, and the slender, David Bowie types, but I agree with the women here who’ve (collectively) said that—barring emaciation or morbid obesity—it’s the guy’s personality, intelligence and willingness to have a relationship with mutual respect that turns me on. ‘Cause, far from being a boring nicey-nicey little perfect tableau, I think really trying to respect each other is this fluid, challenging act of give and take that requires levels of understanding and empathy that, imo, are likely to make the sex RillyRillyHotomg. 😉

    Varification word: million27.

    I don’t know how to make that humorous. Woe! *g*

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