Feminism and Masculinity

The discussion of alpha romance heroes in marriage has taken a rather interesting turn into “feminism is a dirty word” territory, and my comment became so unwieldy, I decided it needed to become its own post. Such are the privileges of being a blog owner.

So, some disclaimers:

1. I’m a feminist, and I’m proud of the fact.

2. It bugs me when people treat the word “feminist” as an insult—especially when these are women who enjoy the benefits of what previous feminists have fought for, such as the right to vote, the right to initiate the dissolution of marriages, the freedom to work outside the home without being viewed as some sort of freak of nature, or the freedom to enjoy love and sex on their own terms.

3. It also bugs me when people use “radical man-hating separatist” synonymously with “feminist.” It’s akin to conflating “Christian” with “homophobic asshole,” or “Muslim” with “suicide bomber.” Sure, these splinter factions exist, but for the love of Baby Ganesh, these are huge, heterogenous movements, with significant doctrinal and philosophical differences between the many different sects, and the people you’re talking about constitute a minority. Stop defining something solely by its distasteful extremes. It does no honor to the people being discussed, AND it makes you look like an ignorant douchebag.

4. I love men. Oh boy, do I ever. Y’all don’t need any more TMI than I’ve dished out already over the past couple of years on this site, so I’m afraid I’m just going to have to leave it at that. I love men. Yesss I do, precious.

5. I love all sorts of dudes, but the ones I’m most attracted to, sexually and emotionally, are slim, androgynous and geeky to the point of dorkiness. To be frank: I love the girly men. (The same applies to the women I’m most attracted to, as well: I love the tomboyish girls with dyke-tastic haircuts and a swagger. I think androgyny and genderfuck are hot. And I can totally respect and understand that many people don’t. Chacun à son goût.)

I’m going to quote a particular commenter in particular extensively in this post. I won’t refer to her by name; those of you who’ve followed the discussion will recognize who I’m quoting anyway, and I’m honestly not attempting to kick her into the ground, because she’s being disagreed with vigorously as it is, and I can tell she’s feeling attacked; it’s just that her arguments seem representative a certain type of discourse that bugs the hell out off me, and I want to poke at these sorts of arguments in general, not necessarily at her in particular. So apologies for the lack of attribution.

So, here’s the bit of commentary that inspired all this blathering in the first place:

What concerns me is that the ‘ideal’ world that some women want would have boys for men or at least those with teeny weenies, no chest hair, no muscles and itty itty schlongs that would never mess up or bother a delicate female HooHoo.  And men who aren’t men, just beaten down creatures allowed to live in the presence of the Princesses.

And sex would be this vapid, super quiet thing with the woman totally in control at all times, because if the man dares get passionate, she’s being victimized.

(And in a different a little ways down…)

Even deeper, it’s now bad for a romance hero to rescue the heroine.  How dare he be protective, or the least bit dominant!  How dare he be stronger.  How dare he be her superior occasionally!  How dare he be better at anything than the heroine!  It’s bad if he’s truly male, because that’s suddenly ‘alpha’, which is why I find myself shaking my head when what I consider just plain ‘ole men labled “alphas”. That is what I mean by boys versus men.

Holy flaming metrosexuals, Batman. Where do I even begin?

First of all, I’m fascinated by what we’re being presented with as the image of what constitutes REAL manhood. Skinniness seems to be a no-no. Also, lack of body hair. Also, sexual submission. And penis size was mentioned twice—which, in my opinion, presents an eerily accurate reflection of our cultural perceptions of where manhood lies.

I have to admit that I don’t buy into this manly man malarkey, and that men who don’t conform are somehow less or diminished. I’d almost say something like “Look, they have a Y chromosome and a cock and balls; as far as I’m concerned, that’s all a dude needs to get into the Boys’ Club,” but then I realized that my transgender friends would pummel me into the ground for displaying that much essentialist bias. Gender identity is tricky and fascinating, and I’m not going to propose to figure it out on a fuckin’ blog, of all places, but I just want us to ponder why we so strongly associate certain traits with manhood, and why they are desirable in and of themselves, and why we hold them up as some sort of requirement for membership.

See, for me, what are typically seen as unmanly traits, such as swishiness, a willingness to play with gender identity markers such as make-up and dresses, or a tendency for displaying affection to other male friends with culturally uncomfortable physical gestures (in America, that usually constitutes close embraces, holding hands and kissing) are signs of something else entirely. I tend to read those men as being so secure in their masculinity that they have no problems flouting these conventions; they have absolutely nothing to prove, so why not act as or wear what they wish, or actively poke at cultural perceptions of masculinity and femininity? Many of these guys are as puzzled and amused as I am by the use of words like “fag” or “girl” as pejoratives. Even if people don’t find androgyny to be a turn-on, why is it so discomfiting—even repulsive—to so many? Why do people care, even, when health isn’t at stake?

And most interesting of all is the conflation of certain effeminate traits—lack of body hair, slimness—with sexual submission and/or lack of sexual vigor. What does this say about the way we see femininity and feminine sexuality, and how we view sexual submission as somehow being less than sexual domination?

(OK, so here’s a LITTLE bit of useless TMI: I’ve slept with more than my fair share of slim, clean-cut boys, and lemme tell you, vigor is not even remotely an issue, especially the ones who are athletic in ways that place a lot of emphasis on flexibility and movement—you know, the runners, the dancers, the swimmers, the ones who play a lot of soccer or tennis, or do a lot of yoga. Our vision of athleticism has been colored greatly by football, weight-lifting and wrestling, I think, where bulk has come to dominate. Why is bulk considered manly, by the way? If Ability To Fuck Yo Shit up is considered a manly trait, I imagine people who practice the martial arts would be tops, and they tend to be slim and mobile.)

And really, is lack of hero domination a problem in romance novels? I mean, seriously? I see a trending away from extreme alphas in some sub-genres, but even then, romance heroes are still plenty assertive. Even Demon Angel, which was the last romance novel I read with an unabashedly good-boy hero had him pinning the heroine against a closet door and fucking her six ways to Sunday.

So, readers, I want your thoughts on masculinity and femininity. Let’s talk about feminism, and where it’s taken us, and why it’s a dirty word. Why you think girly men are hot. Why you think girly men are repulsive. And something I don’t have time to go into right now, but that I’d love to hash out as well: gender roles and acceptable flaws and virtues for heroes and heroines in romance novels.

Categorized:

Random Musings

Comments are Closed

  1. 1
    Goblin says:

    I have always preferred slim, boyish men. Even as a hormone-addled teenager, I didn’t find beefcake attractive.

    There was no logic attached to this; it was simply what visual cues made me hot.

    What you like in a man is a matter of taste. It doesn’t have to make sense; it doesn’t have to be political.

  2. 2
    Stephanie says:

    You know what’s hotter than hot? A man who is a feminist. That’s hawt. I don’t care what he looks like. Hot.

  3. 3
    Najida says:

    Easy—-
    Boys are my younger brothers and cousins.  Even now that they are men, I still see them as boys.

    Men were those I dated and married and had sex with (not in that order always).  Boyishness, even when I was in my 20’s, brought out more motherly impluses than sexuality.

  4. 4

    I’m a bit of a confusing contradiction to many people.  I’m a bi girl who would buy her lesbian mags and trashy novels at the same time.  I’m a feminist who is in a defined Dominant/submissive relationship as the submissive (although I have gotten to top a few delicious times).  Seeing me with my long hair today, no one would realize that only a decade ago I regularly had people mistake me for a man.  And to top it off, I’m a pagan who has hella lot of respect for many, many a Christian.

    I found this fascinating, too.

    “And most interesting of all is the conflation of certain effeminate traits—lack of body hair, slimness—with sexual submission and/or lack of sexual vigor.”

    My partner is shorter than most men.  He is thin and pretty hairless, but believe me when I say that he is an alpha with a very vigorous sexual life…and would any know just by looking at him.  I certainly didn’t when I first saw him.  He’s a geek…he’s a hottie…He’s an alpha, hotty, geek.  I’m pretty sure he’s a feminist, as well.

  5. 5
    just a chick says:

    I’m a tried and true feminist who appreciates a big strapping hot man with an inapropriately long schlong who knows how to work his long schlong! Punch it, Papi, make me weep! ;)

  6. 6
    Rinda says:

    I think of myself as a feminist, yet I spent many a year as a stay-at-home mom and had feminist friends blast me about it. Thing is, my hubby would have stayed home if my salary had been the larger one. We made the decision together and it was amazing how many people told me I was belittling myself.  We switch off with the kiddo duty now, yet I have no regrets about staying around when they were little. I loved it!

    Damn, wish we just lose the labels, anyway.

    I missed that conversation and plan to go back and look, but I’m not sure I could ever understand how being a feminist is a bad thing. 

    Oh, and what makes a man hot isn’t muscular, slim, hairy or hairless—it’s his character.  I’ve found men on each extreme side of the physical spectrum hot.

  7. 7
    Kalen Hughes says:

    Anyone who blasted you for being a SAHM, when it was your CHOICE to be such, simply missed the fucking boat on what it means to be a feminist.

    I’m not sure I have much to add to the discussion, as I’m soooooooooo in agreement with what Sarah already said, but I will mention that from what my girlfriends and have seen of the world, the men with the biggest cocks tend to be the slim, almost femmy ones. Case in point: Just saw Sir Ian McKellen drop his kit on stage and the man is a freaken tripod!

  8. 8
    Najida says:

    Then there’s Christopher Meloni (Yes, Teddy and I share some of the same fantasies). 

    Rinda, don’t read the thread—- Just hit me with a brick a few times and you’ll be all caught up ;)

  9. 9
    ginmar says:

    I’m a die hard feminist and I’ve had SAHMs tell me stories—-well, yell them at me, that is—-about evil feminists who hated them because they stayd at home and shaved and loved men and wore lipstick.  Of course, I don’t think they represent SAHMs. Usually I don’t even mention it. There are a lot of SAHMs out there, and I know all different types of them: tattooed, gay, straight, bi, girly, butch, and so forth and so on. Happens I’m not a SAHM, and I’ve gotten shit from them about not being a SAHM—-I’m unnatural, you know. They often say they could never be a soldier. One thing that’s lightened the load considerably is I just started cutting such people out of my life. Think I’m unnatural for not having kids and for spending my money? Thanks for sharing! Now go away.

    I find all different kinds of guys attractive, but they’ve got to share one essential trait: they’ve got to see me there, not some adjective. I just think it’s kind of interesting that you can’t talk about feminism (the general ‘you’) without saying, “I LOVE men.” If you feel you have to say it, there’s an issue there, and I’ll be the one to say it. I don’t love men. They’re too big a group and frankly a lot of them are perfect assholes. I hate some of them. I find them impossible to characterize as a group but many of them are privileged snots who act like I’m put on earth to suck their dicks and simper at them. Them, I hate. Also I hate guys who sneer, “But 147% of all rape accusations are false! And the Duke boys were innocent!” I don’t like men. I like some of the ones I’ve met but they haven’t as a group earned my affection. In fact, to judge by what I see of the Army, the police, the government, the Republican Party, and various religions, they hate me and any woman out there with a passion so I don’t feel any compunction about not apologizing for not kissing their asses.

      Being a feminist has been easy for me. Before I was a feminist, I had a boyfriend from hell, migraine headaches and a vague sense that something was wrong. Once I realized I was being treated badly, I stood up for myself, ditched the boyfriend from hell, stopped going out with jerks, and developed enough of a backbone to do things I’d feared doing before because they were so un-Barbie-like——date whoever I wanted, do what I wanted, and not apologize for it because I didn’t kiss ass every. Damned.Step. Of. The. Mother******.Way.

    I grew up when girls couldn’t wear pants to school, when rape just didn’t happen unless the rapist was black, when wife-beating was called life, when date rape didn’t exist, when want ads were segregated by gender, and where women like me were secretaries in uniform. There’s nothing better than stopping some ass**** in his tracks with, “I was in combat. Bite me. Just try and take my rights away now.” The changes between then and now are just shocking, but I still remember what it was like. I won’t forget, either, because what feminism is really like is always in danger of getting called man hating. Like men don’t deserve hatred now and then. And again, screw apologizing for that. There’s at least three states that are actively trying to take abortion rights away from women, and oh, yeah, rape is practically legal.  If they don’t want me to hate them, they can bloody well get off the fence and start caring about crap like that.

    So, yeah, I’m a feminist. Not the fun kind. Call me a man hater, though, and I’ll provide you with so many examples your head will spin. I’m too old and I remember too much to have to apologize.

  10. 10
    SB Sarah says:

    I think of myself as a feminist, yet I spent many a year as a stay-at-home mom and had feminist friends blast me about it.

    Oh, the stay at home vs. work out of home debate. I call myself an “outhouse mom” because I (a) work out of the house and (b) am shit on regularly by stay at home moms. It works both ways, I’m sad to say.

    Funny thing is, I distinctly remember that part of the feminist movement (oh, that word) was to create a situation wherein I had a choice: I could work or I could stay home, depending on what worked for me personally. That is sadly lost when stay at home moms tell me I’m abandoning my child and working out of house moms tell the stay at home moms they’ve surrendered and set the feminist movement back 30 years.

    But I have to go now – I have to pick up my son from daycare. yet another explosive issue!

    I’m sorry other women gave you a hard time, Rinda. I think you rock.

    p.s. Kalen – this one was Candy, not me. Sorry.

    And can you please say more about McKellen?!

  11. 11
    Rosemary says:

    For me, it’s a matter of body-size.

    I am, to put it nicely, “big boned.”

    I’m not attracted to a man who looks like I would grind his pelvis into a fine powder were I to be on top.

    Therefore, the slim, androgynous ones just don’t ring my bell.

  12. 12
    emdee says:

    I’m 58 years old and I am a feminist.  I love men, I wear make-up and I couldn’t possibly burn my bra or those pups would hang to my waist.  IMO, every woman has her own idea of what feminism is.  I can remember when I was married back in the early 70’s and was told that my income as a teacher could not be counted in our household income to qualify for an apartment because I might become pregnant.  To say that defining yourself as a feminist is to be a man-hating bitch is just not true.  It’s an insult to all those who came before and worked so hard to get women the right to vote and to own property (which in Texas a woman could not do in her own name until the 1980’s.)  To me, feminism is the radical idea that a woman is a person.

  13. 13
    ginmar says:

    I’ve never called myself a man-hating bitch, but it’s funny how often people call me that when I point out that I have different feelings for different men. And a lot of it comes from women. 

    As for men, you can show me the prettiest guy in the world and if he’s an asshole, I wouldn’t fuck up with somebody else’s vagina.

    It’s funny how when you say “I don’t automatically LOVE all men, I find some of them downright frighening—-and hateful” that you’re accused of being a rabid bitch.

  14. 14
    Najida says:

    Outta here for the day.

    Seems like from my emails, there are those who don’t choose to wear the feminist label, but sure as heck aren’t going to post it here either.

    Have a nice evening ladies ;)

  15. 15
    Angela James says:

    I call myself an “outhouse mom” because I (a) work out of the house and (b) am shit on regularly by stay at home moms. It works both ways, I’m sad to say.

    Wherd.

    So I’m married to a geeky guy with a really slim build. He’s skinny, yo! Ex-soccer player with a nicely toned stomach and arms. But in the end, geeky. Without any amount of arrogance I’m going to say this: people see us, meet us and think we’re an odd mis-match because they think I’m hot and he’s not. I don’t get that at all. I think he’s drop dead sexy. He totally rocks my world, no two ways about it. But I can’t even count the number of times that people have said they pictured me with someone…like a football player/Marine/body builder.

    Um,no. Even my first husband was totally the “anti-hero” body type. So not what I’m looking for. I want a god in bed, a guy who can be a good father (my ex struck out on the first two, sadly) and someone who worships the ground I walk on. Not too much to ask and for me, not found in any certain physical package.

    It’s like asking if a bald man or a man with a beard can be sexy heroes. I don’t know, are they going to treat me well, listen to me talk about what the Smart Bitches blogged about that day, clean the cats’ litter box and rub my feet when I’ve had a bad day?

  16. 16
    Ann says:

    I don’t know why feminism has become a dirty word Candy, to go back to your question.  It seems to have become associated with man-hating, bra-burning, dungaree-wearing, underarm-hair-growing, sensible-shoe-wearing, motorcycle-riding, big-butch-lesbian.  In short, feminism has come to mean the antithesis of all things traditionally feminine.  As though in order to seek equality for women, we have to become something both more and less than actual women.  And something which, incidentally, is repulsive to most heterosexual men.  Ho hum.  It’s both fascinating, and deeply deeply annoying to me.

    I love the girly men.  In fact, my boyfriend has a totally girly name.  He frequently gets letters addressed to Ms or Mrs.  He’s also quite a pretty type, slim and muscly.  And I have to say, I have no complaints whatsoever.  So yeah, bring on the girly man heroes.  But I can get how other women would not be into the slim guys.  I wouldn’t like a man whose thighs were smaller than mine either.

    And regarding traits for heroes, I’d really like to see some heroes with more “real” names.  All these uber-masculine names give me a headache.  Bring me your Francis, your Ashley, your Marian and Sue!  Bring me your Beverleys and your Hilarys!

    * Note: One of the above is my real boyfriend’s name, and it isn’t Francis.  Although that is his middle name.  You think his parents wanted a girl?

  17. 17

    One of Jo Beverly’s historicals had a “girly man” hero who was hawt.  When it came time to fool the bad guys he cross dressed as a girl ‘cause he told the heroine he could pull it off better than she could—she was too butch and needed to dress as a man.  I loved the concept and I loved how it all worked out.

    And one of my favorite romantic heroes ever is the sinister Jason, Duke of Torquay, from Edith Layton’s The Duke’s Wager.  He’s described as “…of medium height and slender as a boy…his clear blue eyes and tender mouth seemed more appropriate to a romantic poet…” But you have no doubt who’s the sexiest guy in the room when he’s around.

    So I like the idea of a gender bending hero or heroine, one who makes you remember that it’s the person, not the package.

  18. 18
    Teddy Pig says:

    I will step right on in here. This is about sexuality.

    Why is bulk considered manly, by the way?

    That’s easy, Looks better in a kilt.

    See, for me, what are typically seen as unmanly traits, such as swishiness, a willingness to play with gender identity markers such as make-up and dresses, or a tendency for displaying affection to other male friends with culturally uncomfortable physical gestures (in America, that usually constitutes close embraces, holding hands and kissing) are signs of something else entirely.

    Well as a Leatherman this has no sexual appeal to me. Absolutely positively none. Metrosexuality is confusing and just such the trendy little fad.

    To me it is so simple it’s gay man 101.

    If I enjoyed women sexually or could even sexually orient on a feminine fetish, something they wear or a feminine body part, Here’s the shocker… I would be straight!
    It is much easier to live as a straight man and far more accepted.

    For me sexually, I am all into the honest to god old time masculinity. I have even acquired some pretty specific likes.

    I like armpit and ball sweat, Jock straps and leather chaps, body hair, a working mans build with some flab here and there to show he is not vain, a five o’clock shadow that rubs you raw. I will even put up with the burping and fart jokes.

    As far as why someone wants an effeminate man… I don’t know after what I saw in the last thread…
    Less Masculine = Less threatening?

    then I realized that my transgender friends would pummel me into the ground for displaying that much essentialist bias.

    As far as I know transgender is transgender. You had to switch gender somewhere in the process. I certainly hope someone who was transgender would be proud to be one.

    Sexually I am not interested in transgender men. In fact I am confused by a woman, becoming a man, to have sex with men.

    To each his/her own, but it’s not me.

  19. 19
    Chrissy says:

    I’m all about my alphas and I like big guys.  But the quoted poster, who bemoans the loss of the “protective” and “manly” hero must be either:

    1.  going to some sort of “special” book store
    OR
    2.  is smoking something and bogarting that bad-boy

    That’s ALL I find in romance novels.  In fact, some nerdyness is a welcome change.

  20. 20

    Seems like from my emails, there are those who don’t choose to wear the feminist label, but sure as heck aren’t going to post it here either.

    “The lurkers support me in email”? For serious?

    Well, I’m a feminist. Also a carbon-based, oxygen-breathing lifeform. It always seems like it should go without saying, but sadly that is not the case.

    Skinny and androgynous doesn’t float my particular boat, but neither does overmuscled. I like ‘em around my height and fairly average. But it’s a big free world out there, and I’m all for variety. I do demand certain things: intelligence, respect for me as a human being, wit.

    I read the quotes Candy pulled from the thread and rolled my eyes a bit, because these seem like such straw-man arguments. Who says these things? Where are all these feminists who are demanding beaten-down unmanly men? Show them to me! Regarding the second quote… to me, “alpha” does not mean “protective, stronger, occasionally better at something than the heroine, quintessentially male”. Those are all good things that I like in a romance hero. But I also tend to prefer a more laid-back, un-bossy, confident but not overbearing approach. To me that’s what separates the men from the alphas.

    Sorry, this comment is confused—I think I’m trying to answer too much at once. Hope it made sense to someone.

  21. 21
    Molly says:

    I gotta agree . . . I’m tired of nearly every romance hero being huge in every respect—tall, giant muscles, and *ahem* endowed to a degree that sounds painful for the heroine.

    I dated a guy who was a foot taller than me and twice my weight, and he liked to walk around holding hands.  My hand would be around my shoulder, due to the angle he held his arm.  So we’d get back to his place with him feeling like the most romantic guy ever and me feeling like I was twelve and out for a walk with my father, my hand having gone numb.

    Can anyone rec a slim geek hero? I picked up a few that were supposed to be nerds, but they were just white-collar guys who pumped up giant muscles at a home gym.

  22. 22
    Rinda says:

    <

    >

    It most certainly does.  I guess I should call myself a work-out-of-the home-mom—I’m a writer. Sell stuff, too, so it’s a job.  I just feel little need to explain myself to people when it’s none of their damn business what I CHOOSE to do with my life.

    But the die hard SAHMs can be hard on us, too.  You are sooo right bout that.  In fact, one of them staged a little meeting with me once to tell me that I was doing my daughter a disservice by working so much. 

    WTF? 

    <

    >

    The affection is mucho returned. ;)

  23. 23
    wldrose says:

    I am a Feminist a nail polish wearing, long hair growing, meal cooking, electric drill using, politically active, take charge Feminist. 

    I have had all kind of lovers from slender ballet dancers, or rock musicians, to buff football players, firemen, and marines. For me the smart, funny, not jerk, think chubby/curvy me is hot, is what matters.

    What I like well big guys, tall, strong, and some extra padding, a cross between grizzly and teddy bear. Oh and some gray (always been mad about that)

    I have that now along with a sweet temper, and a voice to die for. Thing is I look like my Irish/Polish Ancestors and he is Jamaican, and even today we get looks and the “why is he/she with her/him”

    Ash

  24. 24
    Kimberly says:

    I’m a feminist and a first time poster (long time lurker). Like Sarah, I don’t buy into the “manly man malarkey,” and I appreciate guys who are secure enough in themselves to play around with gender roles and exhibit what are seen as traditionally “feminine traits”: being nurturing and sensitive for example (though there are plenty of girls who are neither).  Case in point; one Halloween I flirted with a guy who was dressed up as a girl, dress, pigtails and all.  When I ran into him later, he was embarrassed that I brought it up, but I found it quite attractive.  Well, I thought he looked silly, but that in itself was what was attractive to me; that he didn’t mind looking so silly.  I also have a very good male friend of whom my (female) friends and I say “Talking to him is so nice, you forget he’s a guy.”  Of course, we don’t say that to him, or to other guys, because they might think we were casting aspersions on his masculinity.  What we really mean is that he listens and treats us like people, not sexual objects.  It’s a compliment, I swear.

  25. 25

    I’m a feminist, but to me, that just means I expect to be treated with the same rights as anybody else. It doesn’t mean I want to see men in submission, or that I think marriage is legalized rape (as some people have misunderstood feminism to be). It’s freedom to pursue what makes ME happy, not to be bound by society’s steroetypes of what that “should” be.

    And men? I like ‘em in all shapes and sizes ;)

  26. 26
    Goblin says:

    In fact I am confused by a woman, becoming a man, to have sex with men.

    It’s because gender identity isn’t the same as who you want to screw.

    A transgendered person is someone born with a female brain but a male body, or vice versa. Generally, the person knows right from childhood that they were born in the wrong body.

    Whether the person is naturally inclined to sleep with men or women is an entirely separate issue.

  27. 27
    Rinda says:

    <

    >

    This cracked me up because I can relate.  I’m nearly six feet and the hubby is five-seven.  I was modeling in high school (living the mom’s fantasy instead of my own

    ) and I fell for a short guy who looked kinda like Sean Penn… or Rod Stewart.

    Everyone was always shocked when they met him.  They expected taller, more macho.  To me, he’s all man and hot as hell.

    Who is to say what constitutes macho?  Really?  It’s all so subjective.  Which is a damned good thing or there’d be a lot of lonely people out there.

    All this cover-labeling is just so much cheez-whiz, anyway. ;)

  28. 28
    Rinda says:

    Someone mentioned either here or in that last long comment section that the work place is different today. 

    Not always.  I worked in a what I thought was a cool office.  Pretty much ran it.  I set up the computer networks, did all the books, managed the office, handled pretty much everything in house while they worked out on the jobs—it was me and two men.  When they decided to take the business in a new direction, they called a meeting, invited five men in and offered them percentage partnerships in the company if they’d join.  I was the only woman sitting at that table and the only person to NOT be offered a percentage partnership.

    Funny, I’d thought I was a partner until that happened.  Upon questioning, I was pretty much told that they brought in my husband to offer him a percentage so they didn’t think I’d need it.

    Me, a separate entity, working my own career… 

    Wow, apparently, I still have a few anger issues over that one. heh heh

    So, yeah, I consider myself a feminist, but I don’t think it has anything to do with whether I shave my damn pits or not.  How did that even come up?  I merely feel I’m worth the same as the man next to me if we’re doing the same job and doing it well. :)

  29. 29
    Cara says:

    Damn Rinda…I have soooo been there on the partnership thing. Bad, bad, bad and yep, still working through my ‘issues’!

  30. 30
    Najida says:

    Landylady,
    You’re right, the old lurkers in email thing is a pain in my butt too, but trust me when I say, NO one is going to post against the group here.  Count on it.  Not when it comes to this topic.

    And looking back on how it all started, it all started with some of us posting the usual “I’m not a feminist but…..” and then finishing our post with a pro-feminist attitude.  And then we were getting a nice long (polite) post on why we should be feminists.

    Now, I wonder how long a “I’m not a (Christian, Pagan, Liberal, Conservative) post and the ensuing response to tell the poster WHY they should be (Christian, Pagan, Liberal, Conservative) would have stood?

    And ya know, all I had to do was lie and say “Ya know, you’re right! I am one of you!”  Hell, I’ll say it now.

    Has my attitude changed?  Not one iota, it’s been pretty damn vindicated and my point again has been made repeatedly about feminist intolerance.  No, many of you have been polite and kind and made very good points.  And I apologize for my ineptitude in getting my point across, but my opinion hasn’t changed much. 

    Other than I’ve learned that I’ll keep my mouth shut here, like other wise women have done.

    Am I going to stop posting here?  Heck no!  I know the landscape well enough to know that if X And Y hate a book, its probably good and more than likely has a characters I like, and if Z likes a book, well, they’re opinion is like mine.

    Like the movie reviews.

Comments are closed.

↑ Back to Top