Woo hoo! I just noticed that Urban Dictionary has finally approved my submitted definition of napoli. Go! Vote! Feel just the teensiest bit sorry for Naples!
For those of you who are puzzled: all is made clear in this post about Bill Napoli.
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Good for you, Candy. On a different political note, have you been following the story about the “Nall for Governor” campaign in Alabama? Loretta Nall is a politico with a sense of humor, and nice tits. And if you want to know more about that, go here:
http://www.nallforgovernor.com/
and read her blog on “boobs and panties”.
I’d also like to point out that if you get Napoli’d in Ohio, in the future, you may be charged with a felony if you try to leave the state to have an abortion.
Ohio Bill
Good work, Candy.
Congratulations!
That is one small step for (hu)mankind.
In regards to to vitrol aimed towards Bill Napoli, and to the nature of an unborn person.
Napoli said that he would approve of, what is in his mind murder, if it would ease the suffering of a young woman.
Now I think what that thing growing in a woman’s womb is a unique creation, a human, and has rights. That the baby is as much the daughter or son of the mother as of the father.
That this unique human can be killed off for convienece or to save money.
Unlimited abortion is killing women, perhaps 20 million women killed since Roe v. Wade. (Gutmacher numbers /2) This is bad for America, because it is bad for American women.
We need to find common ground in this debate. Should we allow abortions in the final weeks of pregnancy? So that someone can finish their graduate degree on time? Because the child will have special needs? Bill Napoli was willing to go against every thing he believed in in order to find compromise. I don’t see aborion-rights NARAL types bridging the gap.
Gosh, Andy, when do the rights of the mother become more important than the rights of the fetus? When the mother has been brutalized to the point of madness or death, I guess, and nothing less.
Look… women do NOT decide to abort for frivolous reasons. Maybe you don’t get that, if you’re male, but I can guarantee you that it’s a choice that tears your heart out. We don’t do it just to finish a degree on time or whatever other silly reason you want to come up with. We do it because the alternative seems impossible to us.
Maybe it’s time to respect our judgment.
Dargie, Thank you for responding. This is the problem for all women, 1650 of you were killed today (Guttmacher numbers, 1.2 mil a yr. assuming half are female) Perhaps a few of them had fathers that were rapists, so I guess it OK to kill them. Right now women are being selectively aborted. Is that wrong in your book? What about the baby boys who’s fathers aren’t rapists, would you save them? 3,300 abortions happen daily, most aren’t conceived in rape, and are aborted for financial or educational reasons (to finish school, etc.)
For what, and when you Dargie limit abortion? Rep. Napoli had the courage to inartfully try to compromise with the pro-choice side, and has been pilloried for it. Where is the compromise to limit abortion from the pro-choice crowd?
Best Regards,
A
No, Andy, 1650 women were not aborted today. 1650 female fetuses may have been, but I would question all of your statistics to begin with since it’s been my experience that the far right has no real respect for truth when it comes to winning an argument.
Let me ask you something: Do the circumstances of conception make a difference to the right to life in your book?
As for the rest, you’re simply repeating yourself and I responded to all that with my first post. I refuse to allow you to define the argument along the lines of compromise. Roe v. Wade is the law of the land. There is no need for us to compromise.
Dargie, again, thank you for responding, I’ll try to keep it new and fresh. I got my numbers from http://www.guttmacher.org an ar,m of Planned Parenthood. 1,200,000 (apx) abortions/365=3287/2 (to approximate females) = 1643, of course, today was a workday, and females are more than 50% of pregnancies, so let’s compromise and say 1650 female fetuses were aborted. They could have grown up, gone to Vasser and become life-long Democrats, voting in a new golden age of liberal policies. Instead, my 15 neo-fascist kids will learn to drive trucks in the army and vote Pres Jenna Bush in. I’ll blame you when I can’t get a new hip in 2038.
Love and Kisses,
Andy
PS At one time I would have made an exception in the case of rape, but I have had my eyes openned. I see that the unborn are human, and deserving of our love. I don’t believe children should be punished for their parents crimes.
PPS Why should you compromise on abortion, since, Roe is the “law of the land”? I ask you, is abortion, in your eyes, a societal good? If it is good, we should aim to have as many pregnancies terminated as possible, right? The problem is that in truth, a 9 week old fetus has fingers and toes and couldn’t be confused for anything other than a human. See the real thing, open your eyes. http://jfaweb.org/0104.html
I wish you the best.
That’s a nightmare scenario, Andy, I must admit, though how Jena could be worse than her father, I don’t know. Anyway, blame me if you want for your bum hip; I’ll be long dead in ‘38. However as you most certainly know, that argument doesn’t hold water, amusing as it is. If your statistics are from Planned Parenthood, then I readily accept them, though I still find them meaningless in terms of this discussion.
Carl Sagan once wrote that the circumstances of conception should make no difference to anyone’s “right to life” (Which I don’t consider to be a right, btw. Just so we’re clear on this.) He got a lot of flack for it from people who did not understand the point. Of course the circumstances of conception should make no difference in this argument. If people are willing to make ANY exception to their right to life position, it means the position is in itself inherently flawed.
Abortion is in itself not a societal good. The right to choose to have one or not, is the good. So suggesting that the pro-choice position inevitably means that more abortions are better than fewer is a logical fallacy. I promise you, no woman wakes up in the morning and thinks, “I think I’m going to go get pregnant today so I can have an abortion!” No woman thinks “I’m pregnant! I can have an abortion now. Wheee!” nor do they wake up one day and think “Oh gee, I just realized that my due date is going to interfere with the day my dissertation needs to be finished. I’d better just abort this thing so I can get my money’s worth out of school.” I promise you that the vast majority of women who have had abortions never, ever want to have another. They don’t do it lightly and they carry the memory with them for their whole lives. You make a huge mistake if you think otherwise.
I am not some ingenuous infant liberal who has simply taken up a position because it’s the thing to do. I do know what fetuses look like at every stage of development. However, what they look like is also immaterial since no one denies they’re human. Again, I’m not going to let you frame this argument in emotional terms. If it looked like a fluffy bunny, I’d still say the same thing: Fetuses which can be aborted under Roe v. Wade are non-viable. Period. They cannot live outside the body of the mother. If you want to posit anything from that, you should draw the conclusion that they are simply part of the mother’s body like an organ or a tumor.
You want to end abortion, Andy? Then work to ensure that children receive early and adequate sex education. That contraception remains available and affordable for all women. That women are more protected from rape and incest. That women receive equal wages for equal work so they can feel they have a strong economic foundation for a family. I guarantee you that the abortion rate will drop if all these things are accomplished.
If you can offer any arguments not grounded in religion, morality, emotion or nightmare fantasies about Jena Bush, I would of course be interested in reading them.
Best,
Dargie
Congratulations candy. You have done a tremendous job.My vote is always there for you.
http://vacationrentalhotspots.com
I’ve always wanted to ask the anti choice people how many unwanted children have they personally adopted? How many unwanted children are they willing to take into their homes, provide for, love and nurture? If you haven’t adopted at least one unwanted child, shut the fuck up hypocrites. You don’t want them either.
BTW, no, I’ve never had an abortion, but I strongly believe in a woman’s right to choose,
I’ve wanted to do the same thing, Susie. Guarantee a loving home for an unwanted child and you’ll save at least one from being aborted. But way too many just want to shove photos of fetuses at us, call us names and even bomb clinics.
I keep wanting to say “Offer solutions! Concrete ones, not pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die stuff. If nothing else, help us implement our solutions.” But there’s no willingness there, just rhetoric.
A bit of necrothreading, but I’d like to close the record – the ballot measures South Dakota and Colorado have been soundly defeated.
Terminating a pregnancy is a terrible and difficult choice, and one that every woman should have the right to make (or not make).
Let me ask you something: Do the circumstances of conception make a difference to the right to life in your book?
Cycle Trader, to whom are you directing your question? If to me, then the answer is no. Circumstances of conception are immaterial. I believe I said as much in one of my previous posts.
I liked your site.
“Spirit comes from the latin word, to breathe. What we breathe is air, which is certainly matter, however thin. Despite usage to the contrary, there is no necessary implication in the word spiritual that we are talking of anything other than matter, including the matter of which the brain is made, or anything outside the realm of science. Science is not only compatible with spirituality, it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light years, and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy beauty and subtly of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is certainly spiritual. So are our emotions in the presence of great art, or music or literature. Or of acts of exemplary acts of selfless courage… The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive, does a disservice to both.
First, let me start by saying that I am a liberal democrat, and at times I would even label myself as being closer to a Socialist than any other political label. That said, I do not believe in abortion. Like Andy, I believe that every fetus from the moment of conception is a human being, and so abortion is murder. However, I do believe that there are certain circumstances in which abortion is the appropriate or only action that can be and should be taken. First, is in the case that the woman should never have gotten pregnant in the first place because she is ill and that a pregnancy would kill her andthe baby. It would not make sense to loose two people when saving one is possible. Second, I believe that in the case of incest or rape a woman should be able to have an abortion should she choose that is what she wants to do.
Do not get me wrong, I do not want abortion to be illegalized on any grounds. I think that there needs to be complete knowledge of what an abortion is and what affects it can have on a woman, mind and body. I believe that before anyone comes to the decision to end a life that they should go through some form of counseling with a therapist that specializes in abortion decision. I think that she should know that there is a correlation between abortion and an increased risk of breast cancer and a decreased chance of getting pregnant again. Before anyone jumps on me, I do know that a correlation does not suggest causation. There could very well be another reason why women who get abortions are more likely to get breast cancer and less likely to get pregnant again, but there is something that links these things. Also, I believe that they need to understand the psychological ramifications of aborting a pregnancy. I believe that if counseling is received prior to and after an abortion, there will be less abortions and better emotional health for women who do choose to have an abortion. Women need to understand all of their options before deciding to end a life.
Also, there are other things that could be done to make abortion if no irrelevant than less relevant. Prostitution should be legalized. I realize that not every woman who gets an abortion is a prostitute, but I am sure that many of them are. If prostitution was to be legalized then we can help the women who choose to go into this profession to stay safe. They would be protected from johns who rape them and pimps who beat them. They would be given the option of ending any pregnancies that result from their work, and have these abortions done in a safe manner by trained professionals. They could be given proper birth control through the government. In return for government protection, these women would have to stay clean. They wouldn’t be allowed to do drugs, and once it comes out that they have they would be put on suspension until they are clean again. The government could even send them to rehabilitation to help them get clean.
Liz, I found your post interesting, and thank you for not wanting to make abortion illegal in spite of your own reservations about it. That bespeaks good, common sense about the relationship of our own personal beliefs to other people.
There are two things I would like to comment on. First, the idea that abortion is “appropriate” in the case of rape or incest. While I agree that women who suffer rape or incest should be allowed abortions, I am not anti-abortion by any stretch, and thus am not saying that the circumstances of conception (violent, non-consensual) determine that any individual has less of a right to life than on conceived out of love. If someone is anti-abortion, then it needs to be consistent, and include even children conceived in rape or incest, or it undermines the entire concept of a right to life.
Second, the much-touted link between abortion and breast cancer is far more tenuous than you imply. Both the National Cancer Institute and the World Health Organization have stated that they find no link at all between the two, and the current scientific consensus agrees. The argument is pretty much limited to anti-abortion groups which automatically makes it suspect in my book. It also defies common sense since there has been no such link suggested between miscarriage and breast cancer.
I agree with you completely about legalization of prostitution, but not necessarily because of any abortion issue. Rather I think it is necessary to give voluntary sex-workers legal protections. That would, however, prevent only a small number of abortions every year since it is overwhelmingly white, middle-class women who have abortions. I would suggest that sex education in schools is as good or better for combating abortion.
I also agree that counseling should be made available to women who are either considering an abortion or who have had one. I disagree that it should be mandatory. No woman makes that decision lightly.
Finally, thank you for an interesting take on the subject.
Dargie, I admit that I may have been wrong about the link between abortion and breast cancer. I got that from my old high school health class, in which we had to write a 10 page paper on abortion. I wish that if they were to give information out in a class that it would be correct. I do believe that if schools/the government wanted to really help people to understand all of their options that they need to add it to the curriculum, and the information presented should not be biased in any way. In my high school, it was perfectly fine to teach about and give out male condoms, but they couldn’t even show female condoms. (we weren’t even supposed to be told that they existed.)
Anyway, I understand that any woman should have the choice to have an abortion, and that is one of the main reasons why it cannot be illegalized. Choice is the American Way, and it would be unAmerican to take away someone’s choice.
There are many reasons why I believe that prostitution should be legalized. First, if it is legalized it can be regulated. With regulation, we can make sure that the women who choose to be prostitutes could be protected from their pimps, their johns, and STD’s. Plus, it would protect the politicians, so I have always wondered why they didn’t get behind this. I wonder what Spitzer has to say about legalized prostitution? (it’s just a thought) Second, it would be easier to keep prostitutes from ending up strung out on drugs. Honestly, I like the concept of legalized prostitution in the “In Death” novels.
Liz, a friend of mine likes the idea of “sin” zones where things like prostitution, gambling and drug use are all legal, all carefully monitored and never leave the zone. I’m not sure that would work, but I am in favor of legalizing things like sex work and drug use for exactly the reasons you cite: It would afford a greater measure of protection for everyone to have such things regulated and monitored.
Public schools are always the last to get information. *g* I have to admit that the idea that a public HS could give out male condoms boggles my mind, but then I graduated in 1969, so I guess that just shows my age. Back then, we had to pretend we were reading our books on hygiene while the gym teacher told us the basics of sex. And that was in our senior year. And she could have lost her job for doing that.
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I think everyone has made some good points in their comments here. It’s clear we all believe passionately in our side of the discussion, and have made an effort to convey our beliefs in as intelligent a way as we can. Discussions like this provoke thought, and that’s never a bad thing.
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I do believe that there are certain circumstances in which abortion is the appropriate or only action that can be and should be taken. First, is in the case that the woman should never have gotten pregnant in the first place because she is ill and that a pregnancy would kill her andthe baby. It would not make sense to loose two people when saving one is possible.
Love your site, my sister turned me on to it…
As for the debate on abortion, I hate to say that no man should be allowed to ring in on it, BUT:
Too many men dip out, whine out, act like children, refuse to pay child support, do horribly screwed up things to the mothers of their children—NOT to mention the children themselves—to ever be allowed to have any real opinion on the subject, I think. The guys that figure out that they can get away with something will make a woman’s life a living hell. The majority of men will, at some point over their lives, act really F##**ed up about their marriages and family. I actually had a male member of my family try to tell his wife that the reason he slept with the 16-year-old neighbor (he’s 39) was “a biological imperative”, he just couldn’t help himself. This, after 12 years of marriage, and three kids under the age of 10 in the house. To HELL with THAT! No man will ever, ever, ever tell me what to do, not with my BODY, heart, and especially not my mind! Bill Napoli can kiss my butt, I’m so glad I don’t live in SD!
I think abortion is murder, but making that choice for anyone but myself takes away the other person’s dignity by implying she is incapable of making rational decisions on her own.
Many women are at increased risk of domestic violence when pregnancy is involved. If a woman has to make a horrible decision to end her child’s life in order to escape an abusive situation or prevent said child from becoming a victim of that same domestic violence themselves, who am I to judge?
For the record, I am one of those leaning pro-life-but-reluctantly-pro-choice folks who is in the process of adopting a child from the fostr care system.